Any killer copywriters who will guarantee their results?

[tomswiftjr]

I've got two info products that have recently been put up for sale. One is in the relationship niche, one is in the gardening niche. Both are priced at $27 and the relationship one has had sales. They're both getting >2% CTR on Adwords, so I feel good about the quality of the traffic they're getting, but the conversion rates leave something to be desired. The relationship one is converting just under 1% and the other hasn't had any sales yet.

I want to hire a great copywriter who can help me really make these perform, including squeeze page (if appropriate), sales page, and autoresponder sequence. I'm targeting 2-3% direct conversion rate on each of these. I don't mind spending significant money if I can see that there will be a return on the investment.

Are there any great copywriters who will write and offer some kind of guarantee on their results? Like I said, I don't mind paying, but I don't care about the words you write...I care about the results

[Bruce Wedding]

I'll guarantee my results. The result is, you get a sales letter written to the best of my ability, 100% guaranteed.

No copywriter in his right mind will guarantee 2-3% (which is a HUGE 50% gap, BTW). I mean, how would they even do that? Keep writing ad infinitum?

And how does 2% clickthru tell you that is quality traffic? The way to get quality traffic from PPC is to pre-qualify it. Are you doing that?

Send me a link and I'll let you know if your pages need improving.

[procopywriter]

I'm with Bruce... no one can guarantee a specific conversion rate. But what I DO guarantee is if I choose your project (after seeing the existing sales letter and the product)... I guarantee you'll earn your investment back and more.

Take a look at my sales letter below, and if you feel there could be a good fit between us, let's talk.

[Dean Dhuli]

Guaranteeing conversion rates would be like agreeing to take responsibility
for all the other things that the business owner or marketer might screw up
during the course of the project.



- Dean

[Scott Murdaugh]

I can meet you in the middle.

As stated above, no copywriter can guarantee a specific conversion rate. (Unless they're lying.)

What I can do is look at you existing sales page and your traffic sources.

If I'm confident that I do better than the letter you have, I'd guarantee an increase in conversions.

I'd go into more detail right now but I'm tired and booked up. There's contact info in my sig, a PM works as well.

-Scott

[Alexa Smith]

I think plenty of copywriters can guarantee their results. The problem is, they can't really guarantee your results, which inevitably depend on how you use their work and are largely outside their control. How can you guarantee the outcome of something that's outside your control?

[Hugh Thyer]

Look. The reason most copywriters wont guarantee results is that the sales copy is only PART of the bigger picture. There are plenty of other things which could cause your product to fail. Here are some of the top ones...
1. Your prospects dont like your offer
2. You have misunderstood your target market, and have advised your copywriter incorrectly
3. You have been targeting the wrong prospects
4. Your guarantee is weak
5. Your product is not what your target audience are looking for
6. Your price is wrong

There's probably heaps of others, but if you get these things wrong, there's not much a copywriter can really do.

[David Raybould]

Hi Tom,

These guys have nailed it.

Smart copywriters won't guarantee anything
except the guarantee Bruce gave you. And
when you're talking about writers of Bruce's
caliber, that's a pretty serious guarantee.

Picture the scene:

I promise you copy that converts at 3%.

You hire me to write for your projects.

I deliver killer, top shelf copy with the
potential for insane conversions.

But then you send terrible traffic.
Traffic that's not targeted right.
Traffic that's not buying traffic.

So the letter converts poorly, and
suddenly it's my fault because I
guaranteed you a certain conversion
figure.

That's why good copywriters
don't guarantee anything except
for the fact that we'll sweat blood
to deliver the best letter we can.

Everything else is out of our hands.

-David Raybould

[tomswiftjr]

Makes sense...thanks all!

[Raydal]

I'll take the challenge. I'll guarantee you 3% conversion and
everything over that belongs to me. So if the letter converts
at 5% then the extra 2% sales is my commission.

All traffic must be PPC quality, i.e. targeted.

-Ray Edwards

[Treborrevo]

Ray,

I like your style

That response said, "Player".

Well done.

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by alexa_s

I think plenty of copywriters can guarantee their results. The problem is, they can't really guarantee your results

For the win!

Thank you, Alexa.

Perfectly stated.

[Paul McQuillan]

Ray- I truly respect those that put it out there like you just did.

The fact you tossed in an irresistible offer brought a tear to my eye

[procopywriter]

Originally Posted by Raydal

I'll take the challenge. I'll guarantee you 3% conversion and
everything over that belongs to me. So if the letter converts
at 5% then the extra 2% sales is my commission.

All traffic must be PPC quality, i.e. targeted.

-Ray Edwards

Hey, that's a great offer! (Bold, too!) I've never thought about making an offer like that... I'm going to be on the lookout for how I can use it!

[Kyle Tully]

Here's some food for thought:

If your only products are $27 you're going to get eaten alive. You're up against competitors who are paying 200% commission on the front-end and who have customer lifetime values in the $300-$500+ range.

If you NEED 2-3% conversion to make money, that means you can only send highly-target traffic, which means you can't scale your business, which means you'll never get enough volume to make any money.

Any copywriter worth his salt would tell you you're not ready for his services 'till you've got a backend in place. $27 products are lead generators and you should be happy to break even (or even lose a little) to acquire a customer.

'Cause here's the thing...

You don't really want super-high conversion rates. You want to make money. And you'll make more money driving more traffic (even if it's less targeted) from more sources... building your customer list... and selling stuff to them on the backend... even though your conversion rates are lower.

[Bruce Wedding]

Great post, Kyle. Its an uphill climb to make $27 work without a backend. At .27/click, you're breaking even at 1%

[tomswiftjr]

Originally Posted by Kyle Tully

Any copywriter worth his salt would tell you you're not ready for his services 'till you've got a backend in place. $27 products are lead generators and you should be happy to break even (or even lose a little) to acquire a customer.

I'm getting there However, I'm not sure I see the reasoning of not wanting high conversion rates if the $27 ebook is for lead-gen. Seems like the higher the rate, the better, because you get more people into your system?

What's a solid backend look like? I'm planning a $50 - 100 product next, followed by a $100 - 200 one. Other suggestions? Who does this really well, especially in the non-IM world?

[Kyle Tully]

Originally Posted by tomswiftjr

I'm getting there However, I'm not sure I see the reasoning of not wanting high conversion rates if the $27 ebook is for lead-gen. Seems like the higher the rate, the better, because you get more people into your system?

Sure, all things being equal you want high conversion rates.

But the simple fact is as you drive more and more traffic it's going to be less targeted and your conversions are going to go down... but profits will go up.

Put simply... would you rather 100 highly-targeted visitors a day and convert at 5%, or 1000 semi-targeted visitors a day and convert at 1%?

On a large enough scale the conversion rate of every salesletter approaches 0... but as long as you're making a profit then who cares.

Originally Posted by tomswiftjr

What's a solid backend look like? I'm planning a $50 - 100 product next, followed by a $100 - 200 one. Other suggestions? Who does this really well, especially in the non-IM world?

Sign up to Double Your Dating for a multi-million dollar education.

[Omar]

Originally Posted by Hugh Thyer

Look. The reason most copywriters wont guarantee results is that the sales copy is only PART of the bigger picture. There are plenty of other things which could cause your product to fail. Here are some of the top ones...
1. Your prospects dont like your offer
2. You have misunderstood your target market, and have advised your copywriter incorrectly
3. You have been targeting the wrong prospects
4. Your guarantee is weak
5. Your product is not what your target audience are looking for
6. Your price is wrong

There's probably heaps of others, but if you get these things wrong, there's not much a copywriter can really do.

A lonely thought wondering through my mind just coudn't resist and forced me to post here.

Why in the world a sales copy cost $5000, $10000 or more if there are at least 6 other things that can influence success of a product?! Isn't sales copy job to make the prospects to like the product?! To sell the product at the given price, with the given guarantee, etc?!

[Metronicity]

Originally Posted by Omar

A lonely thought wondering through my mind just coudn't resist and forced me to post here.

Why in the world a sales copy cost $5000, $10000 or more if there are at least 6 other things that can influence success of a product?! Isn't sales copy job to make the prospects to like the product?! To sell the product at the given price, with the given guarantee, etc?!

There's a simple answer to that my son - because they are charging too much.

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by Omar

A lonely thought wondering through my mind just coudn't resist and forced me to post here.

Why in the world a sales copy cost $5000, $10000 or more if there are at least 6 other things that can influence success of a product?! Isn't sales copy job to make the prospects to like the product?! To sell the product at the given price, with the given guarantee, etc?!

Omar, those are the things that can easily screw up conversions. A copywriter who is both skilled at writing and identifying things that are not aligned correctly (i.e. a product price that is too high for the target market's wants/needs/typical budget) can justify charging $5000, $10000, or more.

By charging more, it also means they are giving each project more TIME. Time to do additional research... time for more editing and polishing the copy. Time to do follow-up client consulting to make sure conversions are staying high.

Someone charging $97 or $197 has to do high volume just to meet their monthly bills. Because they need to do high volume, they don't have time to do everything a higher-fee copywriter can.

Personally, I don't care about low-ball prices that some copywriters (or aspiring copywriters) charge. They are targeting a completely different market than me... namely cheapskates and business owners with little or no money to spend on their marketing efforts.

The other thing is... a copywriter is like any other service provider in that you can charge whatever you feel your professional expertise is worth AND what the market is willing to pay.

I could not charge the fees that I do if enough clients weren't happy with doing so. They are happy to do so based on the results I am able to produce for them on a consistent basis.

Hope that helps,

Mike

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by tomswiftjr

I want to hire a great copywriter who can help me really make these perform, including squeeze page (if appropriate), sales page, and autoresponder sequence. I'm targeting 2-3% direct conversion rate on each of these. I don't mind spending significant money if I can see that there will be a return on the investment.

Are there any great copywriters who will write and offer some kind of guarantee on their results? Like I said, I don't mind paying, but I don't care about the words you write...I care about the results

The best way to reach your goal is to do the following:

1) Hire a highly skilled copywriter. Their help will not come cheap.
2) Consult with your copywriter to make sure the other conversion affecting elements that other people have mentioned in this thread are positioned correctly. Screw something like the product price up and it will kill your conversion rates, no matter who wrote the sales letter.
3) Do on-going split-testing or multi-variate testing. Getting optimal conversion rates won't happen overnight. There's always additional tweaks that testing proves out that will boost conversion rates. That leads into my next point.
4) Hire the same copywriter as a consultant to keep giving you testing elements like additional headlines, product guarantees written in different styles, and so on. Just as importantly, they can give you the elements written so they "blend into" your existing sales letter. You don't want to disrupt the flow of your salesletter with something that doesn't fit the theme or style of copy for the rest of the letter. If you do, it will become an area where prospects will frequently stop reading and start leaving instead.
5) Give your copywriter their base fee and percentage of sales. You want them to be equally committed -- maybe as long as the next 12 months -- to help you get the biggest bang for your buck.
6) Keep your end of the agreement. Nothing will kill the chances of success than shorting your copywriter on royalties or not following their advice. Remember you're hiring an expert to help you... they aren't the mail delivery person.

That's how some of the biggest names in the copywriting industry have helped build multi-million dollar businesses for their clients. Clayton Makepeace as the copywriter for Martin Weiss' financial products is a great example of this point. Both of them have made millions over the years... because they worked as a TEAM for a mutual goal.

That's what I've started to do for a very small number of my clients. Everybody wins. Everybody has the potential to make a truckload of money over the long run.

Good luck,

Mike

[Star Riley]

Great responses from all great to learn from reading a thread. Investment = my time. Return = priceless $

[Hugh Thyer]

Originally Posted by Omar

A lonely thought wondering through my mind just coudn't resist and forced me to post here.

Why in the world a sales copy cost $5000, $10000 or more if there are at least 6 other things that can influence success of a product?! Isn't sales copy job to make the prospects to like the product?! To sell the product at the given price, with the given guarantee, etc?!

At times like this, my mind wanders to the old expression of being able to sell fridges to the eskimos.

The reality is, you can't sell fridges to eskimos. They just dont want them. Even the best copywriter in the world couldnt convince them to buy them. It's a complete message to market failure.

At the end of the day, you can't sell me a sewing machine. I just dont want one.

And you can't make anyone excited about a guarantee which offers only 20% back and makes you jump through hoops to get it.

Why do copywriters charge what they charge? Simple. The marketer lines 'em up and the copywriter knocks them down. And if all the bits are in the right place your copywriter will make magic for you.

[Metronicity]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Someone charging $97 or $197 has to do high volume just to meet their monthly bills. Because they need to do high volume, they don't have time to do everything a higher-fee copywriter can.

True. But you're forgetting about the upsell on the back end. The $97 basic WSO I run is just a bit of "chum" to attract the bigger fish. Works a treat. But don't tell anyone or they'll all be doing it instead of waiting for the phone to ring.

[Alevoor]

Originally Posted by alexa_s

I think plenty of copywriters can guarantee their results. The problem is, they can't really guarantee your results, which inevitably depend on how you use their work and are largely outside their control. How can you guarantee the outcome of something that's outside your control?

Well said. It is funny asking for guarantees for a whole lot of turn of events of which you are only a small and temporary part.

[Omar]

Originally Posted by Alevoor

Well said. It is funny asking for guarantees for a whole lot of turn of events of which you are only a small and temporary part.

Speaking about that, don't you think is pretty same situation with any other product on the market? Why should be offered guarantees for info products or software? Afterall, the software is just a small part in the whole internet marketing game. Just because some1 buy a tool it does not mean will use it properly. If he reads an ebook it does not mean it can follow all the steps and get same results. However most of those products offer a guarantee, and is about $xx or max $xxx, not the kind of money i can see mentioned for sales letters copies.

Don't get me wrong guys, i am sure you believe in what you do and that your work worth the price, whatever that is. But this sounds like the "Earning Disclaimer" found on 99% of the money making info products. All promise moon on a stick but put an earning disclaimer saying that although they did the best to accurately describe the product, you will probably not get same results but is only your fault if that happens.

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by Omar

Speaking about that, don't you think is pretty same situation with any other product on the market? Why should be offered guarantees for info products or software?

Not exactly.

A software application doesn't have a massive drop in function because someone sends a bunch of junk traffic to your website.

A client of mine once emailed to complain about their conversion rate dropping from 4% to zero. That was after over 1 year of solid sales from the sales letter I wrote for him.

Turns out he TRIPLED his product price one day because some "guru" told him to jack it up. Of course, he didn't add anything else to the product... or any new bonuses... or anything else before raising the price.

As soon as he returned the price to the previous price, the conversion rate returned to around 4% almost immediately.

Ask yourself: As his copywriter, how am I responsible that he followed someone else's lousy advice?

Afterall, the software is just a small part in the whole internet marketing game. Just because some1 buy a tool it does not mean will use it properly. If he reads an ebook it does not mean it can follow all the steps and get same results. However most of those products offer a guarantee, and is about or max , not the kind of money i can see mentioned for sales letters copies.

Lack of a customer's expertise is not a reason to offer a guarantee. If anything, it's a reason why the customer should hire a highly skilled copywriter to continue to consult on their marketing efforts.

[Treborrevo]

A brake manufacturer may guarantee an auto maker that their brakes will be defect free, delivered on time, etc.

The brake maker can't guarantee the car runs. That's the auto makers problem. If the auto-maker puts in faulty electronics he can't blame the brake maker. The brakes are part of a larger system.

In the same way Copy is part of a larger system that includes market choices, product and offer choices, price choices, traffic generation choices etc.

A new product to a new market is the highest probability of failure of any venture. Why should a copywriter be asked to take 100% of the cost and risk for choices outside his or her control.

And a smart business man or woman knows when they are in dangerous territory and don't wuss out by asking their services providers to assume the risk for their high risk choices.

Ironically, the more valuable copy is to a company (those that test, measure, etc) pay the most for copy - and offer royalties on top of the fees. Those who copy is the least important to pay the least for copy and then ask for guarantees.

[sarahberra]

I don't know if anyone can gurantee results. You can find great copywriters that write amazing sales letters, but it also depends on how marketable your product is, your competition, etc. Do you have a high demand product? There are so many other factors.

[k0zm0zs0ul]

Great thread, thanks for the informative posts guys. Raydal, big thumbs up for the way you think! LOL

Regards,
Cori

[DougHughes]

Originally Posted by tomswiftjr

What's a solid backend look like? I'm planning a $50 - 100 product next, followed by a $100 - 200 one. Other suggestions? Who does this really well, especially in the non-IM world?

There is a public speaker Darren LaCroix who has both internet and non-internet strategies. This guy has a good backend.

All of these guru guys have backend strategies, Yanik Silver, Armand Morin, Dan Kennedy, Steven Peirce, Eban Pagan, John Reese.

Just go to gurudaq.com look at whos there and then setup a new free email account and opt-in to their lists. You will get a good education.

[DougHughes]

Also, here's an alternative strategy for you to consider. Find a bunch of sales letters in your niche or similar niche that you believe or know to have done well.

Jot down their url, or copy them to a word doc. Then, go to somewhere like Odesk or Elance and hire multiple copywriters to rewrite them for you, then test.

I know this idea will be offensive to many but it is something to consider.

You may not get a guarantee but you'll have multiple letters based on other successful letters that you can test.

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by DougHughes

Also, here's an alternative strategy for you to consider. Find a bunch of sales letters in your niche or similar niche that you believe or know to have done well.

Jot down their url, or copy them to a word doc. Then, go to somewhere like Odesk or Elance and hire multiple copywriters to rewrite them for you, then test.

I know this idea will be offensive to many but it is something to consider.

You may not get a guarantee but you'll have multiple letters based on other successful letters that you can test.

I don't find this offensive at all... but I don't think it's a good move.

Good copywriters don't get work off elance. They have clients come to them. And bad copywriters are really good at "swiping" a letter, making something that LOOKS like it will convert... but it doesn't.

There's a reason we can charge what we do... our skills are in huge demand and very few people can deliver the goods we can.

If you buy ten letters off eLance, you MIGHT get lucky and have one that converts... But I'd bet my bank account that you'll just get ten crappy, over-bearing letters that completely "miss the mark" and pull terribly.

Remember, a good letter is tailored to that client. It is based on their USP and what THEY bring to the market-place... it's not just a "me too" letter.

If you're the gambling type, and have the money to burn, then sure, get writers off elance... But you probably won't be happy with the results.

Kind regards,

-Dan

[TracyNeedham]

Hugh,

I loved the way you put this:

The marketer lines 'em up and the copywriter knocks them down. And if all the bits are in the right place your copywriter will make magic for you.

That sums it up exactly!

Tracy

[searchnology]

Originally Posted by tomswiftjr

I'm getting there However, I'm not sure I see the reasoning of not wanting high conversion rates if the $27 ebook is for lead-gen. Seems like the higher the rate, the better, because you get more people into your system?

What's a solid backend look like? I'm planning a $50 - 100 product next, followed by a $100 - 200 one. Other suggestions? Who does this really well, especially in the non-IM world?

It depends on the demand and competition in your niche but a $27 price point:

- usually means very low PPC bids or CPA payouts for affiliates

- which then usually means you are getting less qualified traffic,

- which usually means your conversion rates will be lower.

If your revenue per customer(initial purchase + back end purchases) can get higher you can afford to pay for higher quality traffic which converts better.

[searchnology]

Come on guys put your business hats on!!....

I think the "I CAN'T GUARANTEE ANYTHING" mantra from creative providers is a bit weak from a business standpoint. (with the exception of Raydal).

If I can show you the exact source of my traffic (PPC ad, print ad, TV ad) before you take on the project and if I can show that I am targeting the exact same way pre and post the new copy, you should be willing to offer a performance guarantee of some type on your copy writing services.

Put another way...If you were on staff your azz would be fired if your copy never beat the control so why is the performance of freelancing any different?

The "too many intangibles" issue is dealt with EVERYDAY in normal business arrangements and as long as appropriate transparencies and/or limitations are in place it should be a non-issue.

If a buyer is willing to "open the kimono" and you can't figure out a way to guarantee that your service pays off, that is lazy and double-talking BS!

...my 2 cents.

[John Willer]

I'll guarantee you make a 5% conversion rate






Disclaimer: I am not to be held to any conversion rate claims because its the same as making income claims

[Daniel Scott]

Originally Posted by searchnology

Come on guys put your business hats on!!....

I think the "I CAN'T GUARANTEE ANYTHING" mantra from creative providers is a bit weak from a business standpoint. (with the exception of Raydal).

If I can show you the exact source of my traffic (PPC ad, print ad, TV ad) before you take on the project and if I can show that I am targeting the exact same way pre and post the new copy, you should be willing to offer a performance guarantee of some type on your copy writing services.

Put another way...If you were on staff your azz would be fired if your copy never beat the control so why is the performance of freelancing any different?

The "too many intangibles" issue is dealt with EVERYDAY in normal business arrangements and as long as appropriate transparencies and/or limitations are in place it should be a non-issue.

If a buyer is willing to "open the kimono" and you can't figure out a way to guarantee that your service pays off, that is lazy and double-talking BS!

...my 2 cents.

Fair enough... but here's the problem.

For me to figure out whether or not your site/product/traffic will convert... takes a lot of time.

Time I could be spending writing letters for paying clients.. or sitting on my ass.

It takes me a fair chunk of time every day to give quotes as I do... let alone if I had to do in-depth research on a product and the market BEFORE I wrote.

And I'm not even in the big leagues... I can't even imagine what a guy like Vin would get each day in the way of quote requests.

If copywriters DID take this tack, they'd either have to charge for quotes, or add an extra zero onto their prices. Neither of which are particularly good for either clients OR the writer.

Plus, you're assuming that a client will trust the writer... you have no ideas how many times I have had clients tel me to do things a different way. The usual answer is "okay, but it's gonna hurt conversions"... and they do it anyway.

I understand where you're coming from, I really do... but IMHO your idea just isn''t practical.

And BTW... copywriters routinely get paid to write copy that doesn't beat a control, from what I understand. Agora, for example, have some amazing control pieces... they still hire writers to try and beat them.

Just because you can't beat a ridiculously good control piece doesn't mean you're not an asset to a company.

-Dan

[searchnology]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Fair enough... but here's the problem.

For me to figure out whether or not your site/product/traffic will convert... takes a lot of time.

Time I could be spending writing letters for paying clients.. or sitting on my ass.

It takes me a fair chunk of time every day to give quotes as I do... let alone if I had to do in-depth research on a product and the market BEFORE I wrote.

And I'm not even in the big leagues... I can't even imagine what a guy like Vin would get each day in the way of quote requests.

If copywriters DID take this tack, they'd either have to charge for quotes, or add an extra zero onto their prices. Neither of which are particularly good for either clients OR the writer.

Plus, you're assuming that a client will trust the writer... you have no ideas how many times I have had clients tel me to do things a different way. The usual answer is "okay, but it's gonna hurt conversions"... and they do it anyway.

I understand where you're coming from, I really do... but IMHO your idea just isn''t practical.

And BTW... copywriters routinely get paid to write copy that doesn't beat a control, from what I understand. Agora, for example, have some amazing control pieces... they still hire writers to try and beat them.

Just because you can't beat a ridiculously good control piece doesn't mean you're not an asset to a company.

-Dan

Good and thoughtful response but I'm not letting you off that easy.

Once again this is a common business issue that has already been solved by other types of service providers.

The above assumes you only have a SINGLE product offering. I think you solve this with several product offerings.

1. I will do my best but no guarantees (lower price and faster turn).

2. I guarantee an increase in conversion rates (higher price but a longer timeline)

3. The "Raydal model" (Don't pay me anything. I just get a portion/commission from the increase going forward)

Then allow the customer to choose for the best option for their situation.

The trust issue is applicable to all business arrangements as well. How do you know the food you buy from your local grocer isn't tainted? You just have to build a solid reputation and be able to provide PROOF to back it up. Also build limited client change into your agreement if you are guaranteeing something.

[Collette]

Originally Posted by searchnology

...Once again this is a common business issue that has already been solved by other types of service providers...

Examples? Seriously. I'd like to see the types of providers you're referring to, and how their business model is applicable to creative service providers.

Incidentally, I'm not adverse to working on a small base+commission. But I'd need to see a decent track record from your side, first. Or, you'd have to have a marketing model that would allow me a lot more control in the execution than just writing the copy.

[searchnology]

Originally Posted by Collette

Examples? Seriously. I'd like to see the types of providers you're referring to, and how their business model is applicable to creative service providers.

Incidentally, I'm not adverse to working on a small base+commission. But I'd need to see a decent track record from your side, first. Or, you'd have to have a marketing model that would allow me a lot more control in the execution than just writing the copy.

Ummm....he bascially said it would take a lot of time to do it the way I recommended and he would need to charge clients more.

You need a business example of that?!

[Collette]

No, I was referring to where you said:

Once again this is a common business issue that has already been solved by other types of service providers.

Who are the other types of service providers?

The only times I've seen a guarantee of results offered (by anyone credible) the guarantee usually comes with a hefty punchlist of pre-conditions.

A guarantee of "satisfaction" is quite common with creative and other service providers. And base+commission is also quite common. Straight commission is less common, but I know a few people who have done it with clients or products with whom they have established a trusted relationship.

To guarantee results, any service provider (who knows what they're doing) would insist on a great deal of hands-on control. Not just a tawdry flash from the kimono.

I simply don't know any knowledgable, competent and experienced copywriters who would guarantee results, without having a controlling interest in the whole process. And they STILL wouldn't be able to control outside forces, such as the economy, natural disaster, etc.

All of which can affect a marketing campaign.

[searchnology]

Originally Posted by Collette

No, I was referring to where you said:



Who are the other types of service providers?

The only times I've seen a guarantee of results offered (by anyone credible) the guarantee usually comes with a hefty punchlist of pre-conditions.

A guarantee of "satisfaction" is quite common with creative and other service providers. And base+commission is also quite common. Straight commission is less common, but I know a few people who have done it with clients or products with whom they have established a trusted relationship.

To guarantee results, any service provider (who knows what they're doing) would insist on a great deal of hands-on control. Not just a tawdry flash from the kimono.

I simply don't know any knowledgable, competent and experienced copywriters who would guarantee results, without having a controlling interest in the whole process. And they STILL wouldn't be able to control outside forces, such as the economy, natural disaster, etc.

All of which can affect a marketing campaign.

Well this is a softball....

- Pizza companies guarantee delivery service times
- Investment banks guarantee sales of IPO shares
- FedEx guarantees their package delivery service
- Realtors will guarantee to sell a house in x days or they will buy it themselves

I could go on ad nauseum. These are all services, and all have inherent risks to the company that they can't control...and most thought they were crazy when they first started offering a performance guarantee because "nobody else does it that way". (hmmm....sound familiar)

Yes, the aforementioned pre-conditions would obviously apply in a guarantee scenario (transparency, creative control etc.) and nothing stops you from just walking away if you don't believe the current copy is that bad or if you can't add significant value. That last part is what gets me. Many will take the money and run even if they don't believe they can outperform the current copy. They then chalk it up to "you paid for my valuable time" if though they knew from the beginning it wasn't going to payoff for you.

My point was everyone is chiming "I can't guarantee you anything, a guarantee is insane, you get what you get" and I just believe there are better and proven ways of doing business that aligns the risks better for both parties.

I'll pay you a few hundred bucks for a brochure but if I pay you a few grand to rewrite my landing page and it doesn't deliver better results I want you to rewrite it until it does, or give my money back or I'm going to come looking for your azz!

[Collette]

All of the examples you mentioned are performance-based guarantees of service. And performance-based guarantees are common among many different types of service providers, including many copywriters.

...if I pay you a few grand to rewrite my landing page and it doesn't deliver better results I want you to rewrite it until it does...

No problem. You'll find examples of that guarantee from a great many copywriters - with conditions. In fact, most professional copywriters offer free - and in many cases, complete - rewrites of your copy, at your direction. Nothing unusual there. And not at all hard to find.

But you were talking about a copywriter guaranteeing results. Results that can be influenced by a number of factors unrelated to the copy.

That's simply a bad business model.

My point was everyone is chiming "I can't guarantee you anything, a guarantee is insane, you get what you get"

Actually, they're not. They're talking about not being able to - with honesty - guarantee results. That's an ethical admission of limitation. Would you rather a copywriter lie to you?

There are a few copywriters who work just on commission. They don't come cheap. They accept only a handful of projects a year. They require a sizable chunk of the gross profit, and they scrutinize every aspect of the product or service before they commit themselves. And business owners have to beg these guys to take the assignment.

Many will take the money and run even if they don't believe they can outperform the current copy. They then chalk it up to "you paid for my valuable time" if though they knew from the beginning it wasn't going to payoff for you.

Only the unethical and unscrupulous ones. There are unscrupulous providers in every industry.

There are also ethical and scrupulous service providers. Typicaly, those will be the ones most cautious to accept your kimono. They're also the ones most likely to insist on some degree of payment up front, followed by a piece of the action. Why?

Because they actually know what they're doing.

[searchnology]

Originally Posted by Collette

All of the examples you mentioned are performance-based guarantees of service. And performance-based guarantees are common among many different types of service providers, including many copywriters.



No problem. You'll find examples of that guarantee from a great many copywriters - with conditions. In fact, most professional copywriters offer free - and in many cases, complete - rewrites of your copy, at your direction. Nothing unusual there. And not at all hard to find.

But you were talking about a copywriter guaranteeing results. Results that can be influenced by a number of factors unrelated to the copy.

That's simply a bad business model.



Actually, they're not. They're talking about not being able to - with honesty - guarantee results. That's an ethical admission of limitation. Would you rather a copywriter lie to you?

There are a few copywriters who work just on commission. They don't come cheap. They accept only a handful of projects a year. They require a sizable chunk of the gross profit, and they scrutinize every aspect of the product or service before they commit themselves. And business owners have to beg these guys to take the assignment.



Only the unethical and unscrupulous ones. There are unscrupulous providers in every industry.

There are also ethical and scrupulous service providers. Typicaly, those will be the ones most cautious to accept your kimono. They're also the ones most likely to insist on some degree of payment up front, followed by a piece of the action. Why?

Because they actually know what they're doing.

All of the points you mentioned aren't being talked about by the guys on this forum and that is what I was specifically addressing. Though I would like to see a list of those that offer all of the things you claim. (I "guarantee" you won't )

"Results" is an ambiguous term.....which is why we didn't define it the same way.(Admitedly, that could be the case with others as well). I see it as....if I am getting a X% conversion rate now then if I hire you and pay you good money I want to see a higher one (everything else being equal)....I wasn't advocating guaranteeing a specific conversion number. That isn't logical.

Funny!!!, I just heard this song on the radio and a line in it was...."Why do I need you?...I can do bad by myself!"

[MontelloMarketing]

- Investment banks guarantee sales of IPO shares

Do they guarantee they'll keep investing until you make a profit?

- Realtors will guarantee to sell a house in x days or they will buy it themselves

Do they guarantee you'll get the price you want? Do they guarantee a house you buy will live up to your expectations?

The truth is simple... sometimes no matter how good the copy is, it doesn't sell.

Plain and simple.

Maybe the timing is bad... maybe another product hit the same market at the same time... maybe your product just plain sucks. The copywriter's fee shouldn't have anything to do with that.

I once had a client come to me saying there was a problem with my letter. "I have a 30% return rate. You have to fix the letter! I said, "The letter's fine. It was good enough to sell the product. Now fix the product so everyone stops asking for their money back."

Any copywriter worth his salt wants to see you succeed. Even just so they can brag about it. They (the good ones) will bust their asses to make it happen. Still sometimes it just doesn't happen.

A .300 hitter in the Baseball hall of fame still didn't get hits 7 out of every 10 at bats.

The better copywriters have much higher percentages than that. But the projects that just don't work even after all the best efforts, should not effect that copywriter's pay for that project.

But a copywriter gets a few failures in a row and the market will work it out. Failure hurts reputations and THAT ultimately effects his bottom line. Anyone who's been successful for a while will do what it takes to stay there.

[searchnology]

Maybe the timing is bad... maybe another product hit the same market at the same time... maybe your product just plain sucks. The copywriter's fee shouldn't have anything to do with that.

Come on ...that's the same tired reasoning??....An A/B split test would take into account variables for both versions of the copy. That argument is squashed.

Yes, you WILL miss and loose time on some projects (all guaranteed services must pay up from time to time) but in the end I think it would only serve to 1) sharpen your skills 2) Improve your reputation. Over time you learn how to structure this type of offer.

Once again, if a deal isn't reasonable then walk away(Dominos didn't guarantees pizza delivery in 30 minutes to anywhere in the world..right?)...but if you KNOW(in your professional opinion) that the copy is bad why not say "Hell yeah...I can get you a lift and I'll guarantee it" THAT'S POWERFUL!!

[Collette]

Originally Posted by searchnology

...I would like to see a list of those that offer all of the things you claim. (I "guarantee" you won't )

I don't know which "all of the things" you're referring to. All professional copywriters include rewrites. And you would be right that I won't give you a list of copywriters. As a prospect for creative services, that is a part of YOUR pre-screening process. Copywriting Lesson #1: WIIFM? What's in it for me?

I don't work for free. But I DO offer a performance/satisfaction-based guarantee. If you want to know if a copywriter offers a performance/satisfaction-based guarantee, check their web site or simply ask them. Professional copywriters put everything in writing.

Originally Posted by searchnology

..."Results" is an ambiguous term...

Not at all. "Results" denotes a quantifiable series of events.

Originally Posted by searchnology

...I wasn't advocating guaranteeing a specific conversion number. That isn't logical.

Well, then, we agree on this. So asking a copywriter to guarantee that their copy will guarantee a quantifiable series of events occurs which (for your purposes), will generate a specific amount of profit for you, is...

not logical either.

Good, ethical copywriters will bust their azzes to have your copy succeed. Whether a copywriter is being paid a flat fee or a percentage - they will not be in business very long if their copy is crappy and they treat their clients like sh#t.

A copywriter who delivers crappy copy and has unhappy clients CANNOT SURVIVE.

95% of my business comes from direct client referrals. Every good copywriter I know has the same kind of business model. Do you seriously think that is achieved by NOT delivering the results - yes, results - our clients hired us for?

The truth is, BECAUSE we are professionals, we don't ALLOW our clients to have unreasonable expectations. From the beginning.

You seem to WANT to believe that ALL copywriters who won't work for nothing are scumbags, intent only on draining the wallets of hapless - and helpless - clients. And delivering useless garbage in return.

And it appears that no amount of (easily obtainable) evidence is going to change your mind, unless it is spoonfed to you.

So be it.

P.S. - I notice that the swing trading course you're offering doesn't offer a guarantee of results. He guarantees that you'll learn from the material (satisfaction guarantee), but he doesn't guarantee that you'll profit from it (results guarantee). Why do you think that is?

Could it be because, even if he is delivering the best swing trading information since the stock market was invented, he cannot guarantee results that are dependent on forces beyond his control?

Gee. Whodathunkit?

[searchnology]

You are off topic and only provide conjecture as evidence...it's easy to say "Lot's of people do this and that...." but another to provide evidence.....not even a single website or name is provided to support your argument???

I don't recall saying all copywriters are scum....( I do recall giving props to RAYDAL) What I am saying to those specifically on this thread....."The reasons given for not providing a guarantee that your new copy can beat my control copy are lame" If you are good, you CAN reasonably do it with a controlled split test and if you are good you will also easily recognize that it won't be a feasible task and won't offer it up. Think outside the box and make it worth your's and the client's while.