Why You Should NEVER Hire a Cheap Copywriter

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Would some of you pros be kind enough to recommend a good copywriting course or book?

Did you even bother to look at the third thread within this forum?

Top Copywriting Books... Ever

[Daniel Scott]

John,

Top Copywriting Books... Ever

-Dan

[Johnny12345]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Johnny,

I considered sending this via PM but thought this would be a good place to put it since the discussion kind of arose RE: my "origins", and I thought it would be a nice plug for Tim and Kev... who are both great guys and were a big help to me when I started out doing this kind of thing.

-Dan

Daniel,

Thank you for the added detail. It's good that you posted it here, instead of using a PM, because I think a lot of people will find your story interesting and inspirational.

Johnny

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Hello John

Just sent you a private message with some very good information for you that doesn't cost the earth and is pretty comprehensive.

Hope it helps you out mate.

Best regards.

Mark

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Would some of you pros be kind enough to recommend a good copywriting course or book?

Thanks,
John

[Zeus66]

Mark,

Thanks so much for the suggestion! I have taken your advice. Very kind of you to take the time.

Regards,
John Schwartz

Originally Posted by WordPro

Hello John

Just sent you a private message with some very good information for you that doesn't cost the earth and is pretty comprehensive.

Hope it helps you out mate.

Best regards.

Mark

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Absolutely no worries John, not a problem, my pleasure.

Kindest regards and the very best of luck to you.

[Metronicity]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Lately, I've been seeing a disturbing trend... people are raving about the "cheap" copywriter they have who does "awesome work"... then crying a few days later because the letter turned out crap.

To these people, I have one question... are you really that surprised?

As copywriters, our job is to make sure that whatever product we're selling has a huge perceived value. It increases sales.

If your copywriter is writing letters for $100, it's for one reason... they are unable to sell themselves. And if they can't sell themselves... what makes you think they'll do any better with your product?

Now, I'll admit, there is OCCASIONALLY a decent cheap copywriter. But I'd be surprised if they did more than, say, five letters until they hit the 4-figure mark (at least).

For those of you not "in the know"... here's why we copywriters charge so much...

For a start, it takes years of practise to hone your skills to a point where you can write good copy. And that's years of consistent, hard work... studying textbooks, analyzing other people's letters, writing your own letters... again and again and again... until you can consistently write letters that make sales.

Plus, a letter isn't a one-day job. Writing a letter involves researching a market, analyzing the competition, constructing a USP, learning the product/service inside out, and "laying out" the letter... and all this happens before you even start writing the damn thing.

Let me tell you, writing copy is intense. It's a slow, sometimes painful process that really exhausts you mentally... and it takes a LOT of time. Hell, even just writing a headline can take me hours. Sure, it'll end up being a killer headline... but it takes a long time.

Then after you write the letter you have to keep going back over it, fine-tuning and polishing it until you have cut out every unnecessary word... conveyed the perfect balance of reason and emotion... and basically crafted a finely-honed sales machine.

Plus, there are way more business owners than there are GOOD copywriters. There's a reason guys like Vin Montello or Ray Edwards charge five figures a letter... because they make their clients that many, many times over with their killer letters.

No one ever complains that their doctor charges too much. After all, he's been to medical school for years and you NEED a good doc... not just any old hack.

Copywriting is the same.

Time and time again I see people put up cheap copy that looks (to the untrained eye) as though it's well written... but upon close inspection the holes start to appear. The headline's too long and wordy. The copywriter hasn't hit the key emotions of the target market. There are crucial components of the sales copy left out... etc etc.

And it's no surprise, really. If you write a letter for $100, you can spend a maximum of five, maybe six hours on that letter... and that number includes the time you spend doing the quote and soliciting the client.

The average letter takes the average good copywriter about 40 hours. Some letters are more, some are less, and it always "depends", but 40 hours is a realistic figure.

If you worked for 40 hours for $100... you'd be looking at $2.50 an hour.

You would quit and go to Macca's where you'd earn three times that at minimum wage.

This is why hiring a "cheap" copywriter is a bad idea... because they don't have the skills to do your product justice... and even if they did, they don't have the time to spend on a letter because they have to do a crazy amount of letters just to pay the bills.

Is it possible you find a great writer for cheap, who is writing his first letter? Maybe, but it's about as probable as winning the lottery. If you like to gamble, go for it... but I don't screw around when it comes to my business.

And to those of you who think I'm doing this as some kind of "copywriting conspiracy" so we can keep our prices "high"... think again.

I charge $3 000 for a letter right now. Most people don't have that kind of cash, and 99.99% of the time people who hire $100 writers don't have $3 000 (and I'm on the low side for a good copywriter).

I'm simply making this post so a few less people get burned.

Most of you will read it and never listen to it... but I hope this helps at least a few people understand WHY good copy is so expensive... and why it kind of has to be.

Kind regards,

-Dan

Oh boy. You've opened a can of worms here. As you probably know, I've been promoting - shock horror - "cheap copy" in WSOs for several months here. You wanna know why? Mainly to get known on this Forum - I've only been actively participating here for six months. So I wanted to start out with a "bang" - to get noticed. What's the best way to get noticed with this crowd - offer a great service at a great price - which is, after all, the whole idea of the WSO section. There's a lot of people reading that section who are either just starting out or don't have thousands to throw at a "name" copywriter. So I offer (well I did - it's finished now) $97 rewrites of existing sales page copy. And at least double that for jobs that require more work.
Any copywriter worth his chops should be able to rewrite a salespage pretty quick. Sure - some of them take longer than others. But when I'm "in the zone" I can rewrite a salespage in about an hour. I'll take that $97 an hour any day. But you know what I'll also take - leads and offers to better and higher-paying gigs. And that's what those "loss leaders" do.
We'd all like to be paid Frank Kern-style $35,000 a gig but they don't come every day. And frankly I'd rather be a working hack than an "unemployed copywriter" sitting on my butt waiting for the phone to ring with five-figure gigs.
"Unable to sell themselves" - yeah right. I suppose that's why I'm up to my neck in work - not all of it "$97 rewrites" - I'll give you the drum. Think about "upsell on the back end". Your "cheap copy" can be a great foot in the door if you like. It'll get you in the house and talking to the Missus where you can show her how to get that stain out of the carpets or how quiet her house can be with double-glazing.
BTW Gary Halbert had a great little trick he used when he was selling encyclopedias door-to-door. He'd ring the door-bell and then turn around and walk away. Invariably the door would open and the householder would say "Yes....can I help you?". Halbert would say "Oh I'm sorry...I was looking for the Schwartz family and then I just noticed these beautiful roses you have here and...". That got him in the house. And talking. And solving their problems. And writing the order.
Forget about "selling yourself". Think about "solving someone's problem". The order comes from that. à bientôt, That Cheap-Ass Copy Guy.

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Take your attitude and shove it, pal. I wanted people taking part in THIS thread at THIS time to give suggestions, and several of them have. Next time, attack someone who isn't a member of this forum with a solid track record. See all the Thanks I've gotten here for helping others? About twice as many as you in about the same amount of time as you. Stick to attacking newbies, ok?

John

John,

I did give you a suggestion.

So i may have jumped down your throat just a little, but wasn't attacking you. I apologize if you think I was attacking you, but really your question gets asked here over,over, over, and over, and over again. Thats why the answer to your question is at the top of the forum.

But, I'd recommend you go with Sean D'souza course. One of the best courses out there with easily consumable content. Its gonna set you back around 2k, but sean stuff is excellent. He hardly gets mentioned on the forum here and his stuff is top notch.

You can check his website to read his copy or go to copy blogger and find his articles on there.

[PhiltheBear]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

And it's the one service that many people mistakenly shop on price instead of the copywriter's reputation, track record, and skill level for delivering great copy.

Which is exactly why the title of this thread is a load of rubbish.

Great copywriters usually cost most - because they have experience and a good track record.

Good copywriters usually cost a bit less - largely because they don't have the lenght of experience.

BUT

At the end of the day it's all down to the skill of the individual - and NOTHING else.

I've seen some unbelievably bad copy by 'gurus' like Ted Nicholas - and some great copy by people who've just gone out and written their own thing. But it's 100% the case that cost doesn't equate with great.

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Originally Posted by Metronicity

Oh boy. You've opened a can of worms here. As you probably know, I've been promoting - shock horror - "cheap copy" in WSOs for several months here. You wanna know why? Mainly to get known on this Forum - I've only been actively participating here for six months. So I wanted to start out with a "bang" - to get noticed. What's the best way to get noticed with this crowd - offer a great service at a great price - which is, after all, the whole idea of the WSO section. There's a lot of people reading that section who are either just starting out or don't have thousands to throw at a "name" copywriter. So I offer (well I did - it's finished now) $97 rewrites of existing sales page copy. And at least double that for jobs that require more work.
Any copywriter worth his chops should be able to rewrite a salespage pretty quick. Sure - some of them take longer than others. But when I'm "in the zone" I can rewrite a salespage in about an hour. I'll take that $97 an hour any day. But you know what I'll also take - leads and offers to better and higher-paying gigs. And that's what those "loss leaders" do.
We'd all like to be paid Frank Kern-style $35,000 a gig but they don't come every day. And frankly I'd rather be a working hack than an "unemployed copywriter" sitting on my butt waiting for the phone to ring with five-figure gigs.
"Unable to sell themselves" - yeah right. I suppose that's why I'm up to my neck in work - not all of it "$97 rewrites" - I'll give you the drum. Think about "upsell on the back end". Your "cheap copy" can be a great foot in the door if you like. It'll get you in the house and talking to the Missus where you can show her how to get that stain out of the carpets or how quiet her house can be with double-glazing.
BTW Gary Halbert had a great little trick he used when he was selling encyclopedias door-to-door. He'd ring the door-bell and then turn around and walk away. Invariably the door would open and the householder would say "Yes....can I help you?". Halbert would say "Oh I'm sorry...I was looking for the Schwartz family and then I just noticed these beautiful roses you have here and...". That got him in the house. And talking. And solving their problems. And writing the order.
Forget about "selling yourself". Think about "solving someone's problem". The order comes from that. à bientôt, That Cheap-Ass Copy Guy.

Pot.

Kettle.

Black.

K.I.S.S.

[Astounding Writing Coach]

I think the thing that a lot of businesses overlook when it comes to copywriting is that copywriting is an investment rather than an expense. We as copywriters know paying for years of training and developing our writing skills was a good investment. Now if we can just convince those wanting the benefits of our investment to see copywriting that way....

Susan

[Scott Murdaugh]

Susan,

Trust me... There are plenty of businesses out there that see good copywriting as an investment.

It's a lot easier to convince them that you're the right investment than it is to convince them that copy in itself is something worth investing in.

In other words, don't educate, market to the people who value your work.

-Scott

[Collette]

Back in the day, I used to try to 'educate' (i.e. convince prospects that good copy was an investment in their business). These 'prospects' almost never had any kind of marketing plan, nor had they created any kind of budget for marketing.

And they were, without exception, floundering, flailing, or circling the drain.

Exhausting. Draining. And rarely produced any significant ROI for me.

I finally wised up.

These days, I just move on.

[MrEyeconic]

Ok just out of interest if someone cannot afford a four figure copywriter is it best to..

A) go for the $200 copywriter who might have some experience in copywriting OR
B) Do it yourself through learning and looking at successful sales letters?

Gurpreet

[Scott Murdaugh]

I'd go with B)... And then if you could afford to, have a professional critique it for you.

-Scott

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by Scott Murdaugh

I'd go with B)... And then if you could afford to, have a professional critique it for you.

-Scott

Ditto.

Spend $200 on a few of the books in the sticky on top of this forum.

Give yourself permission to fail and start writing.

Test, measure and adjust.

Make some sales.

Reinvest that into a serious critique for between $500-$1k

Implement the advice in the critique.

Count the money.

Best,

Brian

[Kevin Lam]

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Would some of you pros be kind enough to recommend a good copywriting course or book?

Thanks,
John

John, not you too! Go slap yourself for even asking that.

Top Copywriting Books... Ever

[vinild]

Hi Dan,

You are so right. I am an internet marketer and an entrepreneur and I used to write my own copy. In fact, I still do. Yes, I did learn copywriting. Because when I started I just didn't have the money to pay a good copywriter.

So I spend the time learning and writing my own copy. But I never realized how much time I was spending writing the copy. Never documented my time.

Then one day, I decided I will write copy for other people and I didn't know what to charge. I thought $ 100 was a good amount of money. In fact, I took a project of 6 sales letters for $ 200.

Then, I realized it would take me atleast one week with no family time, free time and basically no life to complete it.

That was my biggest mistake. It takes at least 8 hours to pull out a first draft I guess. If you are lucky that is.

It's disgusting when clients quote a cheap copywriter as a bench mark. How do you convince a client who has absolutely no understanding of copywriting?

[vinild]

Originally Posted by Metronicity

Oh boy. You've opened a can of worms here. As you probably know, I've been promoting - shock horror - "cheap copy" in WSOs for several months here. You wanna know why? Mainly to get known on this Forum - I've only been actively participating here for six months. So I wanted to start out with a "bang" - to get noticed. What's the best way to get noticed with this crowd - offer a great service at a great price - which is, after all, the whole idea of the WSO section. There's a lot of people reading that section who are either just starting out or don't have thousands to throw at a "name" copywriter. So I offer (well I did - it's finished now) $97 rewrites of existing sales page copy. And at least double that for jobs that require more work.
Any copywriter worth his chops should be able to rewrite a salespage pretty quick. Sure - some of them take longer than others. But when I'm "in the zone" I can rewrite a salespage in about an hour. I'll take that $97 an hour any day. But you know what I'll also take - leads and offers to better and higher-paying gigs. And that's what those "loss leaders" do.
We'd all like to be paid Frank Kern-style $35,000 a gig but they don't come every day. And frankly I'd rather be a working hack than an "unemployed copywriter" sitting on my butt waiting for the phone to ring with five-figure gigs.
"Unable to sell themselves" - yeah right. I suppose that's why I'm up to my neck in work - not all of it "$97 rewrites" - I'll give you the drum. Think about "upsell on the back end". Your "cheap copy" can be a great foot in the door if you like. It'll get you in the house and talking to the Missus where you can show her how to get that stain out of the carpets or how quiet her house can be with double-glazing.
BTW Gary Halbert had a great little trick he used when he was selling encyclopedias door-to-door. He'd ring the door-bell and then turn around and walk away. Invariably the door would open and the householder would say "Yes....can I help you?". Halbert would say "Oh I'm sorry...I was looking for the Schwartz family and then I just noticed these beautiful roses you have here and...". That got him in the house. And talking. And solving their problems. And writing the order.
Forget about "selling yourself". Think about "solving someone's problem". The order comes from that. à bientôt, That Cheap-Ass Copy Guy.

I do agree, when you are starting off, it does get hard to get the phone ringing. But if you can have some big names and some big testomonials. It can pull in the big bucks.

[Metronicity]

Originally Posted by TimCastleman

Dan:

I get what you are saying but remember the internet has a memory:

*CLOSED*

Where you offered your own cheap sales letters when you got started. I know you're far beyond that now but remember when in glass house stones should not be played with.

Hilarious! So Daniel advises you should NEVER hire a cheap copywriter eh?

[Daniel Scott]

You're a little late to the party, Mal.

We've been over that one several times... on page one of this thread.

I'd link to it if I knew how... but you will find it if you read the thread.

The bottom line is hiring a cheap copywriter is like playing the lottery. You might get lucky but usually you just end up flushing your cash down the crapper.

If you want to play Russian Roulette with your biz... go ahead. But I don't with mine and I would advise everyone else not to as well.

-Dan

[erwindegrave]

Cheap copy writing services might probably give you cheap profits!
Anyway, you can hire a copywriter who is not cheap enough but affordable. :-)
Cheap is very different with affordable...

Remember this, in the internet, the cheapest service is normally the the ones who gives poorest satisfaction :-)

[vinild]

That can also be true when you hire an expensive copywriter. There are several people who charge big bucks and deliver very little.

It's a risk when you hire someone for the first time either way.

[vinild]

Who are the best copy writers in the industry today?

[Jag82]

"Why You Should NEVER Hire a Cheap Copywriter"

I think this statement is a bit harsh.

Before anything, I always believe in paying top
dollars for top service. You get what you pay for.

However we don't want to be too generalizing
in our statements.

There are copywriters out there who offer
affordable prices but return great value.

Low cost doesn't necessarily mean low value.
Likewise, high cost doesn't necessarily mean high value.

When you were a newbie, you were probably charging
way lesser than what you are charging for now, right?

But does that mean your copy will ALWAYS fail to deliver
just because you are charging low fees?

The words "SHOULD" and "NEVER" are too harsh.

Jag

[Metronicity]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

You're a little late to the party, Mal.

We've been over that one several times... on page one of this thread.

I'd link to it if I knew how... but you will find it if you read the thread.

The bottom line is hiring a cheap copywriter is like playing the lottery. You might get lucky but usually you just end up flushing your cash down the crapper.

If you want to play Russian Roulette with your biz... go ahead. But I don't with mine and I would advise everyone else not to as well.

-Dan

I just find it a tad ironic. Don't you? Here you are advising the campers not to hire a cheap copywriter and yet in April of this year - three months before this post - you were offering your services for $97. So effectively you're saying if someone had hired you they may have been flushing their dough down the drain. I note you got five takers and then said you'd be increasing your price to $197. LOL.

[Daniel Scott]

No, I don't... and here's why.

Those people were taking a gamble. They didn't know me, what my skills were, or if I could string a sentence together.

Admittedly, it worked out for them... they got lucky.

Most of the time it doesn't work that way.

I did three letters at that price - taking me about 40 hours each - because I had no portfolio and figured if I was gonna have one... I may as well make some money while I did it, right?

After that I did a letter for $500... then a letter for $1500... so it wasn't $197.

But 99% of the time if you want a $100 sales letter... you'll get crap.

It's simple time investment... on the return on it.

You know all this Mal... so why you constantly have to have a dig at me I don't know... but it's getting old.

-Dan

P.S. This was in the ORIGINAL FREAKING POST - which you guys should read BEFORE you start commenting...

"Now, I'll admit, there is OCCASIONALLY a decent cheap copywriter. But I'd be surprised if they did more than, say, five letters until they hit the 4-figure mark (at least)."

[euhlir]

Yeah you should never hire a poor copywriter. That's mistake number #1.

[Ken_Caudill]

I'm new here, but not new to copywriting. So take this for what it's worth.

Sure, it takes time to write a polished sales letter, and selling your services for cheap cheats both you and your client in the long run because you cannot make a living AND do quality work at bargain basement prices.

That said, a copywriter has to make a start somewhere. Building a portfolio of quality sales letters is important. Unless you have a reputation and portfolio, you cannot demand 4 figure prices for your work, So, it's a chicken, egg situation for a copywriter trying to get established.

Never hire a cheap copywriter?

Come on.

If that advice was followed, no one would ever succeed as a copywriter.

Have a little mercy on those trying to get a leg up.

[Jag82]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

P.S. This was in the ORIGINAL FREAKING POST - which you guys should read BEFORE you start commenting...

"Now, I'll admit, there is OCCASIONALLY a decent cheap copywriter. But I'd be surprised if they did more than, say, five letters until they hit the 4-figure mark (at least)."

Okay, so you admit that, on occasions, you will find decent
and cheap copywriters out there. Like you were yourself merely a few months back.

If that is the case, is it still appropriate to say that one should never hire a cheap copywriter?

Will it better if we say:
"Why you will want to hire a copywriter based on the value (ROI) he can give you and not just on his fees alone"?

Food for thought.

Jag

[Daniel Scott]

Sure... I'll change it to "Why You Should Usually Never, In Fact Almost Always Never, But Once In a While It's Okay To Hire a Cheap Copywriter, So Long As You Meet Numerous Other Factors".

Not nearly as a compelling headline, is it?

Come on guys... this is a copywriting forum.

I don't see the need to change it... if people actually read the post there wouldn't be an issue.

-Dan

[Paul D Brady]

Hi All,

As someone who is trying to work out how to afford paying you guys for the undoubted great copy you'd create, this thread leaves me a little perplexed.

On the one hand, I agree wholeheatedly with the priniciple of you get what you pay for.

On the other, as I'm just a basic copywriter for my own IM stuff I am in the position of not being able to charge large amounts of money for creating an article or sales page.

One thing that does irritate is - all the sites offering out copywriting & writers services for $1 per 500-1000 word article. In my opinion, this drags the whole business down and simply encourages the production of crap, sloppy copy. Maybe there should be a reasonable minimum charge? What do you guys and girls think?

Anyway, thanks for sharing. I get more and more out of this great Forum every time I'm here.

Cheers
Paul

[Metronicity]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Sure... I'll change it to "Why You Should Usually Never, In Fact Almost Always Never, But Once In a While It's Okay To Hire a Cheap Copywriter, So Long As You Meet Numerous Other Factors".

Not nearly as a compelling headline, is it?

Come on guys... this is a copywriting forum.

I don't see the need to change it... if people actually read the post there wouldn't be an issue.

-Dan

What! I like it. Really. But put "never" in caps like you did on the other. And maybe it should be "as long as they meet numerous other factors".

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

.


By all accounts, you've made the transition from being a cheaper than chips copywriter yourself, indeed, making a WSO offer only two or so months ago offering your services for a couple hundred bucks and then, ramming it down other copywriters throats how superior your view is now on the subject,

Wow. I got to say it again. Wow.


Thanks to Mark and Metronicity (didn't hear back so I had to go ahead with that thing. Report will be available over the weekend) and to raydal (for his usual balance)

Jeepers - For a new guy this thread is a revelation.

I love words and using them but no amount of words can cover for the contrast of headline and reality

"You should NEVER Hire a cheap copywriter"

And now we all know people who were cheap writers just 3+ months ago are the ones writing it. I could and would prefer to use another word (not a curse word either) but I'll exercise my puny writing skils and use another one

Chutzpah.

You probably have no idea how much this thread can open the eyes as to the hot air that blows in this section of the forum.

So, i'll take my little unpolished presently 6% closing (yeah it will most likely sink a bit more) copywriting skills and ignore all but a few and offer what prices I want and entertain contests for newbies - that was shot down like a bat out of hell by some of the same group - as much as I want.

Because if you can go from no one should hire you for even $99 to everyone should save up at least 3-5,000 dollars to hire you in 3-4 months why wouldn't I get as much cheap work as I can so I can hone my skills?


Maybe I can get to that level in two months and write a post that has even more chutzpah.


The good news is that apparently if you have a little writing skills copywriting doesn't take very long to improve dramatically in. The sun will come out tomorrow.

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Come on guys... this is a copywriting forum.

I don't see the need to change it... if people actually read the post there wouldn't be an issue.

-Dan

Like I said no amount of words covers it. Come on Dan - a little honesty here in celebration of the FTC guidelines. Its not the first I've seen you on the topic of cheap copywriters. Its a recurring theme with you not just a headline you came up with. If you remember you got all up in a lather about a newbie copywriting contest as well because you claimed it had to pay big bucks or it was garbage. Do you realize how transparent that all seems now?

Dude - blasting the idea of a cheap prize and writing numerous long posts designed to dissuade people from hiring cheap copywriters and now we learn you used to work for cheap - THIS YEAR?


If that were a headline on a sales page it would have a high abandon rate when people see the body content. Thats all i'm saying. It comes across as really a pill to swallow. I'm not looking for a flame war or anything. Its just that after the way you came out in that thread and others it comes across a bit hypocritical and your responses after the fact don't cover that up.

[Paul McQuillan]

Dan's headline for this thread worked- look at the views. The initial
post is where it went downhill as it did not correlate with his own
experience. (basically he got busted)

Let's face it, most frequent posters in the copywriter forum are
full of piss and wind. They are all busy, they all make more than
$xxxx per letter and they know it all.

Meanwhile the guys that are proven rarely post on here (could it
be they really are busy?)

I have a long way to go in my development (more so with my lowly
$497 WSO). I guess I'm "cheap"...

I call it "gotta pay the bills" and "build a portfolio" and "LEARNING"

In order to elevate themselves, some decimate others

later

[MikeHumphreys]

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I love words and using them but no amount of words can cover for the contrast of headline and reality

"You should NEVER Hire a cheap copywriter"

And now we all know people who were cheap writers just 3+ months ago are the ones writing it. I could and would prefer to use another word (not a curse word either) but I'll exercise my puny writing skils and use another one

Chutzpah.

Okay, let me put this in a more accurate context.

Daniel started the thread in 7/2009. As of today, that's more than 4 months ago. Since then he's been doing mentoring with Vin Montello who I consider one of the top copywriting teachers (Ray L. Edwards is my other recommended "how to write great copy" teacher).

If someone who knows nothing about copywriting can hit the books and learn how to write a basic sales letter in 30 days or less... then how much more skilled could a new(er) copywriter become working with a top pro for 4 (or more) months to hone their skills.

The simple answer is * a lot * more skilled.

Right now, any copywriter reading this thread could quote $100K plus royalties to write a salesletter from scratch.

I'm being completely serious when I say it.

That's marketing & copywriting guru Dan Kennedy's fee to write a sales letter for clients.

The ability to get paid that type of fee will come down to the strength of your portfolio, client testimonials, and your own marketing and sellling skills.

Now, very few clients will pay that much for their copy and few copywriters have the confidence and chops to *get* $100K for their copy, but hopefully you see my point.

Daniel has quickly progressed to the point where he has clients paying him $5K for his professional help. Congrats Daniel. Having talked with him by PM more than once, I will say I'm not surprised because he's a highly motivated person.

He's not the first person who started charging low fees as a copywriter... started building a portfolio and raised their fees significantly from there.

In fact, almost every successful copywriter I've ever talked to started with sub $1000 fee for a sales letter. I'm not going to name drop on who I know started out writing "cheap copy" out of respect to those individuals. If any of them want to chime and share their story of going from new copywriter to seasoned pro, then I'm happy to let them.

My first copywriting client was the guy who introduced me to my wife. He spent 6 months asking me to do it until he finally guilted me into writing for him. He paid me $100 to write a new home page for his business website.

In 2006, I ran my first ever copywriting WSO. It was for $200 rewrites. It sold out within 72 hours. Within a few months, I realized that doing high volume of low-cost copywriting jobs was too hard on me physically and I needed to switch to the less projects per month and charge more too.

Every month, I've raised my rates until I was charging $4-6K for an online sales letter from scratch. I raised my rates slower than most because it took me a long time until I had my first big home run for a copywriting client.

Fast forward to the present moment. Right now, I'm 80% booked with client contracted work for the next year.

I'm not saying that to brag but to demonstrate that if you are willing to work hard on building your copy chops and market yourself aggressively, then the sky is the limit on your earning ability as a copywriter.

One last point about "cheap copywriting". I don't mind people offering this service provided they are doing quality work for their clients and not ripping anyone off. They are servicing a portion of the marketplace that can not afford or will not pay what veteran copywriters choose to charge.

My advice to copywriters who are offering "cheap copywriting" is to agressively work on improving their chops so that they can confidently charge more for their services.

Hope that helps,

Mike

[Daniel Scott]

Thanks Mike.

Basically the point I'm trying to make here is for every Mike Humphreys or Vin Montello who do a couple of letters for cheap... there are a hundred crappy copywriters who will take your money and not deliver.

And it's very rare you'll find one of those guys.

That's it. That was my point. No offense meant to anyone.

This is the last I'm going to say about the issue as it seems to be going around in circles.

I didn't start this post to do anything other than try and pass on what I figured out the hard way.

Some of you don't believe me, and that's cool. Heck, I can understand why it was interpreted the way it was.

But honestly, while I've gotten a couple of clients here, it's not a main source of my inquiries.

And to those of you who think I'm dead wrong... it's your opinion and you're welcome to it.

However... here's a few things to take note of...

1. The people who "Thanked" me for my original post... guys like Paul Hancox, Mike Humphreys, and Scott Murdaugh... all good copywriters who have been around the biz a fair while.

2. The kind of people who have posted in this thread agreeing with me - like Vin Montello.

You guys don't have to agree with me... but at least cut out all the personal attacks.

Some people will think what I have to say makes sense. Some won't. I don't really care either way... it's a discussion forum and I've stated my opinion. You're welcome to yours.

Frankly, I never expected this thread to go crazy like this... and I've spent way too much time and energy on it as it is.

But aside from all that... people seem to be insinuating that I have a personal stake in this. I don't.

If someone is looking to pay $500 or whatever for a piece of copy they're not the kind of person who's gonna hire me... regardless of how much persuasion I bring to the table.

I might be able to bring someone up from $500 to $1000... but $500 to $5000? Not gonna happen.

Knowing that... what do I have to gain by posting this?

Answer: Nothing... except sharing my views on the subject.

Also... people seem to be shocked I used to work for cheap. Something I can't understand, considering I talked about it at length on the first page of this thread.

I've never made any secrets about where I've come from or the path my journey's taken... so don't make me out to look like I've got something to hide. I don't.

Hopefully that sets the record straight.

And just to re-iterate... I won't be posting any more rebuttals on this thread... just in case sometime uses that as a reason to confirm my supposed guilt or whatever.

-Dan

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan

I call it "gotta pay the bills" and "build a portfolio" and "LEARNING"

In order to elevate themselves, some decimate others

later

No lie there. I really don't think its the headline that got the thread posted in so often. Dan could have written anything regarding the pricing of copywriting jobs and enough copywriters would have participated and bumped the thread repeatedly. The subject matter is something we would all respond to.

and like I said this is just a recurring theme with a poster that obviously has much more time than he lets on to write long posts dissuading others from giving relatively new copywriters the same breaks he got just a few months ago. Its really self serving. Its like Lebron looking over at some prodigy in high school and saying that he shouldn't be given a shot at the NBA because he's obviously too young to be any good.

Sorry its garbage (said with a french flair)

[Rezbi]

Originally Posted by Raydal

I totally agree with you here Paul. If a copywriter can even
'smell' that the product is poor (as well as the prospect) it
is unethical to take his money.

Absolutely.

I had a guy ask me to write copy for him, so I asked him to send over his stuff.

Now this guys lives in another country so you can imagine he wasn't kidding about.

However, after I received his material and went through it, I just gave up on it. Basically I thought it was so poor I'd have to lie to make it sound good.

And there's no way I'm doing that (and I'm not cheap).

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

I didn't start this post to do anything other than try and pass on what I figured out the hard way.

No personal attacks have been made . Every poster here has to be evaluated in regard to credibility. I haven't called anyone names or made any points about personality. You made a statement and people are pointing out in regard to your professional (not personal) history the lack of credibility to those statements.

Anyway I have no idea what you are passing on the hard way. By your own admission you weren't worth what you got paid and yet from that you built referrals to your work (so some found it of benefit) that got you to where you allege you are today.

Hard is working for less than you are worth and not meeting the bills.

My only request (especially in light of the revelations of where you were just a few months ago) is that you stop endlessly trying to cast a negative light on other copywriters that dont' charge what you do (you have done this repetitively under various guises).

Evaluate the copy - the work itself - if you like. Its fair game (and anyone can do the same for yours as well) but theres no sense in running around trying to price fix everyone else's business. Do that and it will stop people from legitmately wondering why you do that

and finally to all stop trying to insinuate that if someone can't hire a 4 figure copywriter they ought to to do it themselves or forget about IM even though they might not be able to write ANYTHING at all

It makes no sense.

A coherently written sales page even if it has no zing is always going to do better than an incoherent sales page without the same zing.

The record is now set straight. Like I said no amount of word massaging changes things

[Paul McQuillan]

Just to be clear, I did not mean to say Dan was full of piss and wind.
I meant in general most are full of piss and wind.

My comment was an overall look of how people act on this forum and
there is usually a motive behind comments like these.

[Mike Anthony]

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Okay, let me put this in a more accurate context.

Daniel started the thread in 7/2009. As of today, that's more than 4 months ago. Since then he's been doing mentoring with Vin Montello who I consider one of the top copywriting teachers (Ray L. Edwards is my other recommended "how to write great copy" teacher).

If someone who knows nothing about copywriting can hit the books and learn how to write a basic sales letter in 30 days or less... then how much more skilled could a new(er) copywriter become working with a top pro for 4 (or more) months to hone their skills.

Mike you so far are one of the few people here I still respect but all of that has never been the point. For that matter if you had previous sales experience you can pick up things I would think even faster. Where Daniel is, what he charges now is besides the point. The point is there is no reason to spit on the stairs you just walked up.

Was he chosen to be mentored because he had nothing to offer and no valuable talent to offer anyone even at $99? I won't believe it.

You see a bad job that stunk up the joint from a cheap copywriter fine but don't use it to cast a cloud of suspicion over everyone else out there that doesn't charge near what you do. Thats self serving no matter how you dice it. Judge the work by the work.

Daniels post is still a whole lot of hot air no matter how anyone massages it. respectfully all the stuff about earning and whose mentoring and whose talked to who really isn't my point. The premise of the OP is. All the rest outside of that I can neither confirm or deny and a third party can't and won't do it for me either.

My advice to copywriters who are offering "cheap copywriting" is to agressively work on improving their chops so that they can confidently charge more for their services.

Hope that helps,

Mike

excellent Mike. Bavo and Great advice. If thats what was in the OP no one would have any problems with it. If I seem to be too to the point is because this is the second time (and a number of other times I have seen but not been involved) in about a month I've encountered this attitude but I don't mind entirely because this time it was VERY illuminating.

Anyways I got to go work on my lousy cheap 6% converting copy and see if it holds there while improving my product and learning more about copywriting.

Toodles -Soap box time over.

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Dan can certainly dance around words,
of that there is no shadow of doubt
whatsoever.

What I don't like to see is this, putting
the jab in that every other copywriter
isn't as good as me malarkey all the time.
And then, when other individuals call him
up on his own history, he then retreats
as others often do like a scared little
rabbit, bleating, 'Thats it, I'm done with
this thread now', and off he goes
scampering back into the little hole
that he emerged from. Or put another
way, behind Vin, the surrogate mother's
copywriting tutor' skirt.

As if to say, 'this thread and the way it's
gone is now beneath me', sticking his nose
piously in the air, looking down at everyone
else.

Again, it's just rubbing salt into the wound
after insulting all of the other lower cost
copywriters that he doesn't mind lamblasting
himself every so often.

I'll also tell you what I do respect.

I respect the lower cost copywriters
because quite frankly in this economic
downturn, they're all out there fighting
there corner, pulling in work. They're
not the one's signing on for unemploy-
ment benefits or welfare etc. They're all
doing what they have to do to make ends
meet, putting food on the table for their
families, getting the bills paid etc.

And if that means charging less to get
more practice in, whilst delivering the
very best that they can deliver for their
clients who are requesting their copywriting
services, kudos to them for doing that.

Not everyone could afford to spend as in
Dan's case, $15,000 to have one of the
copywriting greats, teach them everything
that they know about this craft.

These other, lower cost copywriters are
learning their skills at the very raw end,
learning from their mistakes and through
sheer determination and no doubt a good
streak of sheer bloodymindedness, they
are determined to succeed in the long
run too, no matter what it takes.

These copywriters will over time develop
their own unique styles, their copywriting
won't simply be, a copy clone of some big
hit copywriting teachers style. These lower
cost copywriters have to fight tooth and
nail to get really good at their craft, they're
not reliant on some of the crumbs handed
off by some copywriting 'guru' - (the easy
way) and then having the priviledge of
having the top brass look over their work,
polishing it up to best effect.

Many of us would like to be in that position,
alas that's not the way it's mean't to be. We
have to learn the hard way and I simply believe
that despite the differences between many of
us, more respect should be given to anyone
wanting to learn this business for themselves.

Afterall, at the end of the day, this is all
about self employment, running our own
individual businesses as well as we can,
determined by market forces and demand
for the services that we provide.

Since all of us are in effect in direct
competition with each other, of course
there is going to be conflicts from time
to time. Personally, I can't bloody well
stand some of you (I'm sure the feeling
is mutual), let alone respect you. Your
my bloody competition, I hate you all
really, if you all dropped dead tomorrow
I'd be as chuffed as can be lol, sad in a
funny kind of way but rubbing my hands
together in glee that finally I could perhaps
grab a few more much higher paying clients.
Automatic respect for a few because they're
my peers? Hmmm no - I don't think so.

A few certainly I respect their opinions, their
willingness to offer advice and encouragement
etc, I think they are wonderful people, but the
fighters, the one's who just wind me up
incessantly or worse try to damage my
reputation directly, hell I couldn't care less
about you. That's just plain business common-
sense. In the 26 years that I've been self
employed I know that often business can be
ruthless and copywriting is no exception to
the rule.

There's no point in being soft. I tried that
approach at first here at the Warrior Forum,
it got me absolutely nowhere. Before I knew
it I had half a dozen of you lamblasting me
constantly, sending threatening emails and
God knows what else. Surprise, surprise I've
toughened up drastically. Don't like it, pffffft,
what do I care anymore? Short answer is, I
don't, not after my experiences here.

As long as I'm looking after my clients as well
as I can, that is my business and has nothing
to do with anyone else.

Guys coming on here like Dan, constantly
having cheap jabs at these other lower priced
copywriters, it just gets right up my nose big
time, especially when he's been in the game for
such a short period of time himself. He may well
be more experienced now, courtesy of Vin's no
doubt about it, brilliant teaching methods for the
most part but has he been in business working
for himself for a full on 26 years plus?

That does account for something you know.

Unless the thought had never crossed your
mind. Which I suspect is most probably,
laughably, the case around here with a few
guys.

Rounding off, give these newer copywriters
a chance, give them a bit of respect, at least
they're not unemployed former whitecollar
executive bums signing on the dole now.

At least they're taking the initiative in this
recession to do the very best that they can
under very difficult circumstances.

Give them some credit for that I say.


Mark Andrews...

[Mike Anthony]

Okay To the extent that my legitmate observations stirred anything I'd like to say that we not get into a flame war here. Mark you made some great points but who runs behind whose skirt and the acrimony lets not go there my friend.

I no longer mind the jabs anyone makes. I can't see anything but encouragement to new and yes even cheap copywriters to continue what they are doing. We now have several firm examples of how it can pay off down the road and in the interim help people who in a down economy can't afford either a $15,000 copy class or a $3,000 copywriter.

This thread is an excellent reference to self promotion and its out in the open now so its a good thing for all copywriters. It served a very good purpose. Lets not get it locked. lets keep it on the topic of the OP and civil. I rather doubt its going to be as easy anymore to put down cheap copywriters - on this forum at least - and I applaud that.

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

My comments from my perspective
are on topic.

You might not agree with them, that's
okay, we're not all supposed to agree
with one another 100% of the time.

I think it's sad that in this section of
the WF especially, one can almost never
make a few stronger points without
someone seeing such a post as a
personal attack, a flame war or
something or other.

Please.

[Scott Murdaugh]

My .02,

First of all I started out writing for cheap.

A lot of those sales letters did great, some of them didn't. The clients who's stuff didn't convert so hot (or they didn't promote it or whatever) paid for a lot of valuable lessons for me.

So yeah, some people got a great deal. Some may not have got such a great deal. I can tell you I've learned so much this past year that it's mind boggling...

For example, I completely disagree with this...

Since all of us are in effect in direct
competition with each other

I disagree 100%. None of us are in competition with each other...

There are more people who desperately need a good copywriter than there are good copywriters to hire. Disagree, I don't care. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.

As to whether or not clients want to pay $200 or $5k+ for copy, I don't care. I care about my clients, and what I feel my services are worth. I could care less about what the rest of the market is doing because it's none of my business.

I know you're running a WSO right now Mark. I hope you stay busy and do some good work.

Paul's running a WSO right now... Ditto for him. I'd love to see him rock it online.

We all have to start out somewhere, I get that. I did that.

I don't mind a guy writing for free if he has to.

I will tell you, the clients who I want to work with... The guys who have awesome products to promote, the guys who value my work and my time, the best guys I've ever worked with...

When they're looking for a copywriter the upfront price is the least of their concerns. ROI is number one.

Never hire a cheap copywriter...

For the most part I'd agree. But if I can't write copy, and I've got a product I want to sell, and a shoe string marketing budget I'm probably going to find a guy who can write a coherent and somewhat convincing letter for me on the cheap.

If I've got $1k to spend on marketing at least half of that is going to traffic. Conversions are important, but if I'm that broke and I spend the entire budget on the copy, traffic is going to be a slow and painful process.

Or maybe I've got a new product idea and I just want to gauge interest in the market before hitting it full throttle.

BUT, if I've got a $100k marketing budget, I don't want a "coherent" sales letter. I want to stack the odds in my favor and get something that converts, so I can slam it with traffic day after day and consistently turn a profit.

He may well
be more experienced now, courtesy of Vin's no
doubt about it, brilliant teaching methods for the
most part but has he been in business working
for himself for a full on 26 years plus?

Experience counts for something, but so does natural ability. I'm 27.

Dan is younger than me, and I have tremendous respect for his copy. Has Vin taught him a lot? I'm sure of it. Could Dan get to where he is now in this amount of time without natural talent? No.

I regularly write for and consult with guys who've been in business longer than I've been alive. Why? I have specialized knowledge and can help them. They have no interest in learning what I do for a living, they'd rather pay for specialized knowledge. Win/win.

Robert Plank is younger than I am. I have the up most respect for that guy. Experience counts for something, but a natural intuition and understanding what makes people buy and how to subtly press those buttons is just as important.

One of my clients right now is 17... I had no idea until I jokingly brought up a trip to Vegas. Smart kid with tremendous marketing knowledge and a great insight into product development.

I've got more on the subject but I'll close with...

If you've got time to argue on this forum over what you charge, or if you think we're all in competition with each other, maybe you should spend some time off of the forum...

I don't mean that in a bad way or "get off of my forum" kind of way. I mean, quite literally, that my LEAST productive time is spent here.

I love this place and I'll continue to post here for a long time to come. But I do it in moderation.

And trust me on this guys, if you're looking solely at the Warrior Forum for clients, you're swimming around in a tiny mud puddle compared to the sea of clients that exist out there in the "real world"...

Even if you write primarily online copy for internet marketers... The big players don't spend a lot of time here. Yeah, they're mostly members here, but they're too busy to browse the forums and they're probably not looking here for a copywriter either.

I think it's a moot point.

Yeah, Dan started this thread, and quickly admitted that he too once charged lower fees.

From a copywriters perspective, if you're looking at $500 copywriters it's not my job to convince you otherwise.

If you have a budget and a project that I'm a good match for, my job is to convince you why I'm the best guy to work with and then deliver the goods...

I've been a $500 copywriter. I've been a higher paid copywriter.

They're two completely different worlds with completely different clients.

I happen to prefer the latter, both the clients and the pay...

I don't knock what anyone else is doing either. It's none of my business and I really could care less. Worrying about it doesn't pay my bills.

To quote something a copywriter I very much respect said...

"No one cares which copywriter has the bigger d*ck" - You know who you are

Peace,

-Scott

[Johnny12345]

For cryin' out loud... lighten up, people. It's not like Dan kicked your dog or something.

He made a thought-provoking post. Sometimes those are the most interesting ones. You don't have to agree with everything he said, but I don't think it requires the formation of a lynch mob. I don't think his post was meant to be mean-spirited.

Look at the number of posts he has... and the number of "thank yous." I'm just suggesting that you might want to put away the snake venom and cut the guy some slack.

Johnny

[KenStrong]

Not to mention this thread was dead for months before a new member decided to bump it for some reason... I thought we covered this pretty well the first time, let's move on to new topics.