Is the client ALWAYS right??

15 years ago

You are welcome, CDarklock and Onslaught!

I decided to bring this issue up simply because most service providers
adhere to this mentality, which eventually wreaks havoc on their
lives. It is bad enough that very few business owners apprecite
the value we bring to the table. Letting them walk all over us is a really
bad idea.

When I was corresponding with my fellow marketers on Fortin's board,
many of them were trying to convince me that in case a conflict arises,
99 times out of 100 the client is right. Believe it or not.
I rejected this approach from the start!

Here is the deal: Do your very best to fulfill expectations and deliver results.
Do EVERYTHING you can and more.
Just don't let anybody take advantage of you. In good times or bad, you
should maintain your dignity and demand respect. That's all...

PS: Change your attitude from "obsequous" to "assertive",
from "subservient" to "professional",
from "desperate" to "powerful", hold your head up high
and success will follow. And you might even start attracting
better, high-quality clients. I do believe in Karma.

Thanks

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Angela Kambarian

The client is always right..
Yeah, right.

This is a case of a very limited-application statement being blown out of proportion.

When providing customer service, never tell the customer he is wrong.

This is just about making the customer feel validated and well-served. It's not that someone comes in and says "You sold me a crummy watch, I want my money back" and he automatically gets his money back. Policies and procedures need to be followed. It's just that at no time do you actually tell the customer "You know what you can do with that watch? Stick it up your arse!" - even if the customer can't have his money back.

The principle is frequently misapplied in the professional services industry, because the client comes up and says "Make that page more red" for no real reason except that he wants to exert some control. The customer isn't right that the page needs to be more red, but he's right that he gets to exert some control. You just have to be diplomatic in redirecting the customer from "more red" to a mutually agreeable form of control over the process.

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"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers

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Angela Kambarian

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

It's just that at no time do you actually tell the customer "You know what you can do with that watch? Stick it up your arse!" - even if the customer can't have his money back.

Uh-oh..That's a little extreme. Don't you think?
I would also add some profanity to drive
the point home.

I mean, once you are at it...

You are right about policies and procedures that
should be incorporated into any deal.
Problem is, many marketers omit these policies and
procedures in the hopes of retaining a client that
doesn't treat them right and does not appreciate their work.
Why? They are afraid to loose business and go hungry.
This type of compromising usually leads to disaster.

What you should do is come up with a particular agreement (in writing),
articulate all the points, policies, provisions, and stick
to them 'till the end. In my honest opinion, when you
act out of desperation, you end up in a MORE desperate
situation. I have learned the hard way.

When I was frequenting other boards in the past, my fellow
copywriters/marketers were trying to convince me that no matter
what happens, the client is always right. Baloney on rye!!!

Thanks
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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Angela Kambarian

When I was frequenting other boards in the past, my fellow copywriters/marketers were trying to convince me that no matter what happens, the client is always right. Baloney on rye!!!

It depends on the services you provide. As a commodity worker - offering, say, content by the word like I do - the customer is always right. If he wants an article on weight loss optimised for the keywords "crochet" and "alligator," I'll do my best to provide that. It will be a little weird, but if that's what he wants, that's what he wants.

But with a highly-trained professional service like copywriting (or software development), the customer really does need to STFU and get out of the way. You're the expert, and you're the one who knows how to get the job done. The customer needs to understand that and back off so you can do the job properly.

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"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers

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Antares14

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

It depends on the services you provide. As a commodity worker - offering, say, content by the word like I do - the customer is always right. If he wants an article on weight loss optimised for the keywords "crochet" and "alligator,"

Firstly, the above made me laugh. I once did a history article for someone on Anne Boleyn, Henry VIII's second wife. Now there's this ludicrous rumour that Anne had six fingers and was a witch; something that has continually been proved to be incorrect (no contemporary evidence etcetera).

We went round and round on it:

Client: "Why does it not mention she had six fingers?"

Me: "Because she didn't."

Client: "But I saw this dramatisation where it said she did."

Me: "Yeah, but she didn't, the first mention of the six fingers is over 150 years later. Even the contemporary witnesses who hated her didn't say it, and it's the kind of thing they would have mentioned given one particular diarist would only refer to her as 'the great concubine'."

Client: "Well, who says she didn't have six fingers?"

Me: "Every Anne Boleyn historian the world has ever seen."

Client: "But... people will expect the article to mention her having six fingers."

Me: "I can mention it is a rumour but if I state it as fact, it's going to be incorrect."

Client: "Put it in anyway, as fact."

Me: *headdesk*

I think the above is a good example of the answer to this question in general. Clients are frequently incorrect, but they know what they want and it's your job to do it. You can advise them, but you can't dictate to them if they've got their hearts set on something. This guy believed Anne Boleyn had six fingers despite evidence, so I wrote it as fact, cringing all the while.

It really used to bother me, but now it's more a case of "head down and carry on". If someone is particularly insistent or difficult to work with, I'll cut them loose regardless of what they pay. There are ways of dealing with difficult people, but at some point you just need to cut your losses.

There's no need to tell them they're a nightmare, though - they'll figure it out eventually

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Collette

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Antares14

Client: "Why does it not mention she had six fingers?"

Me: "Because she didn't."

Client: "But I saw this dramatisation where it said she did."

...

Dude. SPLORT. Thank you.

Thanks
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Aronya

15 years ago

Great topic!

IMHO, the only place where the customer is always right is in their own mind.

In reading thru this thread, I'm seeing 2 separate discussions:
1) Problem clients aren't worth the grief
2) Sometimes you have to give them what they want

I agree with both, to a degree. But. Much of the problem can be alleviated up front if we do a good job of outlining exactly what we will or won't do for them. Crappy prospects will simply tend to stop coming around. What you're left with are good clients who are clear about what to expect from you, and are usually willing to admit when they want something stupid (make it redder, etc.) just because they want it. If a client wants his logo on top, but is willing to admit it's an ego thing, I'm happy to put the logo on top - unless I was hired to create an ad that will make him money.

In personal relationships, people treat us the way we TEACH THEM to treat us. Somebody yells at you for no good reason (maybe they're annoyed about something unrelated to you), and you just ignore it. The next time they're annoyed about something, they're just a little bit more likely to take it out on you. If you continue to accept the abuse, it escalates. All because you didn't point out at the first opportunity that it's not acceptable behavior.

The same thing happens in business. I witnessed the following: Girl gets hired as a receptionist for a large company. She's very sharp, so they ask her to do a little filing. No problem. Much of her time is still spent doing nothing. More filing. Then they want to train her to help with account management, filling out forms, data input, etc. As long as she (anybody) didn't complain, and especially since she was capable of multi-tasking well, they just kept giving her more to do. Her paycheck, of course, didn't grow in relation to her responsibilities.

People take advantage of situations. It's human nature. Actually, I think it's just nature - plants and animals do the same thing.

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Angela Kambarian

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Aronya

In personal relationships, people treat us the way we TEACH THEM to treat us. Somebody yells at you for no good reason (maybe they're annoyed about something unrelated to you).

That's a very good point. I couldn't agree more.
Applies both to business and personal relationships.

Here is the problem: some freelance service providers,
copywriters in particular, who are in dire straits
end up catering to the worst, rudest, most ungrateful and
unreasonable clients. The harder they work, the more
abusive their clients become. It's like a bottomless pit -
nothing would ever make the "weasel" happy.

But a poor copywriter will continue pushing himself
to the limit and servicing a bad client. Why?
Here is why. He needs money. He has to eat. He has
bills to pay and cranky children to support.

The point I am trying to make is, desperate measures
NEVER lead to success. Desperation creates even more desperation.
You should always act from a position of strength, not a position
of weakness. Regardless of your circumstances!

Sometimes, a service provider knows what is best for the client.
That's what makes him/her an expert. If a client does not agree
with a marketer and has doubts about his/her skills, he doesn't
have to work with that person. If you make a deal, make sure you
are on the same page, working well together and complementing
each other. It's not a boss-employee relationship, it's a partnership.
If abuse becomes a part of it, pack your bag and run for your life.
Don't waste your time and energy trying to prove something to
a person who doesn't see your value.

PS: I have never been in this situation myself. Fortunately.
Most of my current clients are great. But we should always
be prepared for unpleasant surprises and have a plan of
action in place, in case this type of situation occurs.

Thanks
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Aronya 15 years ago

Logos are for branding. Lots of (most?) companies think branding is how sales are made; witness the typical car commercial. But the payback on branding, as we all know, is rarely measurable in dollars.

This is part of my earlier point about establishing really clear guidelines for what you are being hired to do, and what results are expected. If you're being hired to write sales copy for an item that is not a brand name product (read "basically unknown"), and if slapping that big ol' logo right up front is likely to hurt the end result, you need to have it clearly spelled out in your contract that YOU are to decide what parts go where, etc. In fact, the visual aspects of a sales page can be as important as the text, so there's a strong argument for you being responsible for, or at least a consultant on, the layout of the page. The client doesn't want to agree to that? No problem. Just make sure you get paid, or walk away from the job.

@Angela
I agree with you about desperation begetting desperation. The one small exception I have to take with your comments re: copy writers needing to put food on the table, is that they don't normally start out in that position. Most start out doing it for their own sites, or for friends. Maybe they just start advertising out of the blue. My point is just that they probably didn't start out depending on their writing to feed the family. They most likely had some other job that was paying the bills. Problem is, they started saying "Yes" to those desperation jobs, and it's downhill from there.

Tim
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Bill Jeffels

15 years ago

I was hired by a company to write their 2 step newspaper ad.

I met with them to get some information. The first thing they said to me is... "So the ad starts with are company logo at the top right?". It took some convincing but they finally listened.

It seems business owners always want to put their logo at the top. And then the person writing the ad has to start convincing them why they shouldn't do that.

Best,

Bill Jeffels

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Angela Kambarian

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Bill Jeffels

It seems business owners always want to put their logo at the top. And then the person writing the ad has to start convincing them why they shouldn't do that.

In some cases, no convincing in the world will do the trick.

People rarely argue with a doctor, an accountant or a
software engineer. They fully rely on their expertise and
highly-specialized skills.

We, marketers, are facing the
challenge of convincing our clients that they should
follow our advice and do as we say. One tiny-little detail
can make or break a deal. But most business owners
do not get it. So, if you find someone who is willing to
listen, you may consider yourself lucky. Also, there is a
clash of egos going on that might jeopardise the whole marketing
campagn. That's why you should
choose your clients wisely and make sure that they will
pay attention to your recommendations. Stay away from
greasly weasels!

Always remember: marketing is the most essential aspect
of any business endeavor. Very few businesses survive and thrive
without a powerful marketing campaign. Your participation
can transform their earnings and change their lives for the better.
If they do not realize that, show them the "finger" and move
on to bigger and better clients. Life is too short. No, really.

PS: There is a popular saying: "Desperate times call for
desperate measures." I disagree with this statement.
Let's change it to: "Don't let desperate times throw you
off track. Never loose your cool or "succumb" to bad clients.
Hold your head up high, and your circumstances with start to
change for the better."

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Collette

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Angela Kambarian

In some cases, no convincing in the world will do the trick.

People rarely argue with a doctor, an accountant or a
software engineer. They fully rely on their expertise and
highly-specialized skills.

We, marketers, are facing the
challenge of convincing our clients that they should
follow our advice and do as we say... But most business owners
do not get it...

People rarely argue with people who they believe have demonstrated their superior expertise and specialized skills.

If, as a marketing professional, you find that your client is neither listening to, nor following, your advice, there is usually one excellent reason for that:

You have failed to make the first sale: And the first sale is YOU.

That is usually why your client, who hired you because you have the supposed competence and specialized skills that he lacks, won't STFU and get out of the way.

They have no confidence in you.

But most professional services providers fail to grasp that.

The rare "know-it-all" problem clients will broadcast their intent from the beginning. If you ignore the warning signs - how is that the client's fault?

Most of the time when clients question your advice, they're not actually questioning your judgement or competence. They simply don't understand why you're doing what you're doing, the way you're doing it. And because of that, they have a "real" fear - originating from ignorance.

Find out what their fear is, address that fear, provide a solution, and your problem is solved. Of course, that would mean actually listening to your client. Not just waiting for him to stop talking so that you can speak.

Yes, maybe you have a client who likes a lot of control. If you're working with entrepreneurs or self-made companies, that is pretty much a given.

So get over it already.

It is YOUR job to ensure that your client has the "proof elements" necessary to "sell" them on your expertise. It is YOUR job to convey competence, dependability, and expertise. It is YOUR job to ensure that your client treats you with respect - from the very first encounter, real or virtual.

It is NOT your client's responsibility to make a leap of faith.

Most service providers don't get that.

Bottom line: if you've got a difficult client who treats you like a clueless incompetent - it's YOUR fault. Not the client's.

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Paul Hancox

15 years ago

Of course the customer isn't always right. There's a simple (yet evil) way to change someone's belief on that. Become their customer, and then give 'em hell... nit pick to death... ask for constant rewrites or changes... you get the point.

Personally, I would never do that... but if I DID, I imagine they would quickly get the point as well

A lot of service providers allow themselves to be walked on (a) out of desperation, and (b) because they THINK they are selling a commodity.

If you're desperate (i.e. you really need that client's money) then I can understand why you'd do just about anything to have or keep their money. The real problem is not having enough clients so that you can afford to say Goodbye to the lousy ones.

As for the "commodity" thing <sigh>, good writing is NOT a commodity. Good writing stands out from the crowd, it sparkles and dazzles, and it gets the reader to take action or demonstrates authority (if that's what the client really wants).

Too many marketers (and most writers) still perpetuate this myth that writing IS a commodity.

I admit, it CAN BE. If I just want 1,000 crappy articles slapped up to try and generate me Adsense revenue, then any old writer could churn it out.

However, there's no WAY I'd allow anything like that to get on my CopySnips blog. I'm building it into an AUTHORITY site, and I want people to stick around for the long term! Or look at the CopyBlogger blog... in 3 1/2 years he's gone from 0 to 60,000 subscribers... do you think he'd ever allow crappy spun-out articles to even touch the fringes of his blog?

In that respect, it's up to ALL writers who want to earn more to "sell the difference" (as I call it) and DEMONSTRATE to their clients why not only do they not want "commodity" writing, but how they could well be losing money from it... and, by contrast, how truly excellent writing can make them so much more money.

If you don't do this, then your client WILL perceive you to be selling a commodity, and so will have no reason NOT to go with someone cheaper.

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BigVin

15 years ago

Regarding the logo...

Unfortunately many businesses put their ego in front of the customers.

Hence why the logo is at the top.

It means nothing to the customers...

But the business wants people to recognize them for who they are.

The same goes with every business who only wants... "Professional Image"

Everyone else does that and no one listens to them.

I'm not saying go crazy car commercial guy. But your advertising isn't going to get results by saying... "we're the most respected in the community blah blah blah".

Everyone does that and the only people who hear it are the people paying for the ads.

How's the saying go...

"When I was young I was worried what people thought of me. When I got older I was worried what people weren't thinking of me. Then when I got older I realized nobody was thinking of me at all!"

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by BigVin

Unfortunately many businesses put their ego in front of the customers.

Hence why the logo is at the top.

It means nothing to the customers...

I wrestle with this, because it just seems like... well... that's where your logo goes. I've got mine on the top right of my sales page, instead of the top left where it feels "natural," but I keep wrestling with the question of dropping it off altogether. Or moving it to the bottom. Or something.

It just feels wrong. My logo should be the first thing the customer sees - but he's expected to completely ignore it, and move on! It's there primarily for subliminal benefit, to get it in front of another pair of eyeballs.

Of course, I've stuck my logo on the top left corner of every damn thing for two decades, so maybe I'm just old and crotchety.

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"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers

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Aronya

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

I wrestle with this, because it just seems like... well... that's where your logo goes. I've got mine on the top right of my sales page, instead of the top left where it feels "natural," but I keep wrestling with the question of dropping it off altogether. Or moving it to the bottom. Or something.

It just feels wrong. My logo should be the first thing the customer sees - but he's expected to completely ignore it, and move on! It's there primarily for subliminal benefit, to get it in front of another pair of eyeballs.

Of course, I've stuck my logo on the top left corner of every damn thing for two decades, so maybe I'm just old and crotchety.

I think if someone is coming to your page from out of the blue (they have no clue who you are), branding is not the first thing you probably want to be doing. On the other hand, if they know who you are, they'd probably EXPECT to see your logo right up front, and would question if they had to look for it. It's all about the situation. If I went to Coca-Cola's website, I'd certainly expect to see their logo.

My 2cts.
Tim

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Collette

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

I wrestle with this, because it just seems like... well... that's where your logo goes. I've got mine on the top right of my sales page, instead of the top left where it feels "natural," but I keep wrestling with the question of dropping it off altogether. Or moving it to the bottom. Or something.

It just feels wrong. My logo should be the first thing the customer sees - but he's expected to completely ignore it, and move on! It's there primarily for subliminal benefit, to get it in front of another pair of eyeballs.

Of course, I've stuck my logo on the top left corner of every damn thing for two decades, so maybe I'm just old and crotchety.

Rather than wrestling with "where the logo feels natural", figure out how important the logo is in your conversion funnel.

Eye tracking studies show that we instinctively look at the largest image on the page first, then the next largest (usually the headline), then the navigation or body copy.

"Subliminal" is useless if there is no substantive message to sublimate.

So, the question really is: What do you want your web site visitor to focus on immediately, when he lands on your page?

Does your logo convey "professional", "trustworthy", "competent", and "authentic" better than a picture of your smiling face would? Does your logo convey the big promise of your copy better than your headline does?

If so, then blow that bad boy up and make sure it's the first thing the prospect sees.

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BigVin

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

I wrestle with this, because it just seems like... well... that's where your logo goes. I've got mine on the top right of my sales page, instead of the top left where it feels "natural," but I keep wrestling with the question of dropping it off altogether. Or moving it to the bottom. Or something.

It just feels wrong. My logo should be the first thing the customer sees - but he's expected to completely ignore it, and move on! It's there primarily for subliminal benefit, to get it in front of another pair of eyeballs.

Of course, I've stuck my logo on the top left corner of every damn thing for two decades, so maybe I'm just old and crotchety.

It's true. Many expect it there. But it's also competing for headline space.

Although most biz owners don't go for results over everything else (for numerous reasons, some good some not).

It's the same reason no header/ headline tests almost always win out over header graphic with headline.

I'm not saying the logo is bad... but a lot of assuming and other stuff put the logo at the top the majority of the time.

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Punkaj Dube

15 years ago

If you are hiring an expert for a particular job, let HIM control the things. If you were so knowledgeable, you could have done it yourself.

The irony is, you can't say these words to your client. Reason being, the client is always right.

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leukram

15 years ago

they are alwasys right , if u want to make money
but I know some clients just behavior they are Gods , so so so unreasonable

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Angela Kambarian

15 years ago

One more thing:

Let's say you are convinced that you are doing the right thing
and your customer is wrong. But you are afraid that he
will fire you and take his business elsewhere. So, eventually
you succumb to his demands and use his ideas instead of yours.

Guess what? In the end, you will loose him anyway.
Because your efforts will not generate good results. The customer
will be upset, disappointed and angry. He will blame YOU.

So, either way, you loose.
Case in point: if a business professional hires a copywriter
or marketer, that person should pay attention to what
a consultant has to say. Otherwise, it doesn't even make
sense to do business together. That's all.

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Paul Hancox

15 years ago

That's why I really believe in helping EDUCATE the customer.

Someone recently asked for my help on promoting her writing service. I was happy to help, but sent her off to read my report FIRST.

That way, when I do offer the help, she'll know where I'm coming from with the suggestions.

It really does help to have a well set-up marketing funnel... not merely for the money, but also so customers have gone through certain "hoops" first

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reedcopywriting

15 years ago

I agree with you Angela!

So many customer out there will try and use that motto to get more work for less money!

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Angela Kambarian 15 years ago

Originally Posted by reedcopywriting

I agree with you Angela!

So many customer out there will try and use that motto to get more work for less money!

Good point, Reedo.

Some prospects would resort to a myriad of tricks to get
high-quality service for the lowest price possible.
Especially in this economy.

I know some well-established marketing professionals,
making six figures, who encounter those types of
"weasels" every now and then. No one in marketing
is fully safe...You have to be careful and maintain your
dignity no matter what. If a prospect has doubts about
a consultant's potential or capabilities, it doesn't make sense
to sign a deal to begin with. Why do business with someone
you do not trust??

Besides, in marketing nothing is cut in stone. No one knows
for sure how things are going to turn out. No one! What works
for some people, does not necessarily work for others.
Some companies get lucky and experience overnight success.
For others it takes a while to see an uptick in their earnings.
Of course, economic conditions also factor into the equation.
The latter is beyond a consultant's control.

In some cases, years of experience and a proven track record
are a must. But guess what? Quite often, a fresh perpective
and an "unadulterated" enthusiasm of a newbie can
make a big difference.

Also, what matters is the level of commitment to a client.
Some consultants put money above everything else.
Money is their primary motivation.
Others (like myself) genuinely care...

Last but not least: I have noticed that successful, well-educated
and high-end clients treat their consultants with more respect than
lower-level clients. By the way, successful people in general tend
to be friendlier than losers.
- Thanks
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firegold21

15 years ago

I think I'm going to wear out the "Thanks" button on this thread. So many good posts, with so many good thoughts and examples.

When I'm not trying to learn and/or do copywriting, I'm a hypnotherapist, and there's a lot of good stuff in here from a coaching perspective. It's so easy to get caught up in that desperation ... I know I did myself not too long ago, and I'm fighting not to do so again.

I was doing kinda catch-all contractor work for a friend, in a time when I *really* needed the money. She'd said she'd write up a contract and have us both sign it, but never did. So I wrote one up. Never heard anything about it until it came time to get paid, when she forwarded it to her payroll person. I got stiffed on the pay (much less than initially agreed-upon), but kept working.

Why? A big reason was that desperation of *needing* that money.

Needless to say, it didn't end on a good note. And I still haven't quite gotten over the feeling of betrayal, sad to say.

But in good news, this thread has inspired me a little bit. And even given me some potential product/marketing ideas. Such as maybe making a product aimed at helping people get out of the desperate state of mind, freeing them to attract better clients and jobs.

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Angela Kambarian

15 years ago

Originally Posted by firegold21

But in good news, this thread has inspired me a little bit. And even given me some potential product/marketing ideas. Such as maybe making a product aimed at helping people get out of the desperate state of mind, freeing them to attract better clients and jobs.

Hey, Firegold!

Thank you for your kind remarks.

I am glad that my thread has encouraged and inspired
you to do something good for other people. And make
some money in the process!

The product that you mentioned above is not a bad idea.
You know what? Go for it!! Keep us posted and let us know
what happens. I am thinking about writing a book for
newbies and discouraged biz profs myself.

Final thoughts for Firegold and others:
Never ever allow desperation to get the best of you,
cloud your thinking or derail you.
Good times will come only if (only if!!) you act from
a position of strength. Not a position of weakness.

Good luck with your endeavors!

Thanks

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SamKane

15 years ago

NOPE.
Some clients don't value your service and only want free advice.

Its no coincedance that the same customers who insist on your lowest possible price and haggle over dollars are the same ones who will waste your time and lower your margins.

My fabrication business started to make a profit after I "fired" many of my older customers and concentrated on satisfying fewer customers.

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These 2 "Weird" Magic Words Can Help You Achieve ANYTHING You Want... Instantly! (Not safe for work or around kids)

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nontemplates

15 years ago

Originally Posted by SamKane

Its no coincedance that the same customers who insist on your lowest possible price and haggle over dollars are the same ones who will waste your time and lower your margins.

Yes I used to wonder why and then realized it was staring me right in the face, They haggle and want the lowest price because in their mind their dollars are worth more than anyone else's time or resources. Nothing ever matches their valuation system. Some time you can talk them out of that value system but for many people its a personality trait and its not my job to be their psychologist.

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KenThompson

15 years ago

This is a great thread. Some great war stories. Wanna hear one of mine? Sure you do. lol.

I'll never forget being on the phone with two people. One was the client and the other was a marketing consultant the client was working with. Ok, that's the scenario.

I had looked at this guy's sales copy. I have no words for how bad it was. It sucked so much it could lower the vacuum in space. I read this in utter disbelief and actually felt very sorry for this guy.

Ok. Here's what he wanted...

He wanted me to do a rewrite BUT using about 70-80 percent of his original copy. Oh! That way the writing fee would be lower. Ok?

There was a loooong silence on my end. LOL

At that moment there was a raging internal debate going on in my head. Do I tell this guy to go F*** himself? Do I be polite and professional?

I was polite and professional for a while. 2 days, a flurry of emails, and at least 2 more phone calls later I fired this guy. It was the first time I ever told someone I refused to write anything for him.

And he actually replied to my email asking me why.

The quintessence of cluelessness. Rarified void.

So... NO, the customer is not only not always right... but frequently wrong, if not always.

I write for myself now. And I'm a damn good client. lol

See ya...

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1 reply

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Angela Kambarian

15 years ago

Originally Posted by KenThompson

This is a great thread.

That's what people used to say about my threads when I
was a member of the "notorious" Fortin Board..

Anyway...I have noticed that quite often clients ask you to
"re-write" their copy. Beware!! I think this is a trick.
And it works like a charm...

Let me explain.

They will categorize the project as an editing job.
It means that you should charge less. The problem is, in
most cases you have to rewrite the whole copy, especially
if it looks terrible. More often than not it DOES look terrible.

But for "editing" you will get less money.
Understand the trick??

Oh, boy...It's never been easy to be a marketer or a copywriter.

Looks like there is a stigma associated with marketing professionals.
Besides, most business professionals realize that marketing is
competitive, it is a tough business and it is full of
desperate freelance consultants, willing to toil for peanuts.
That's why so many clients get away with "murder".

They want you to do all the hard work but
pay significantly less. Be careful, guys! Never fall for this
trick. I mean...if you are not utterly desperate.

(Hey, Noobs! Are you with me??)

Here is the solution: Always stick to your guns!
If you demand respect and good pay for your hard work,
you will weather the storm and come out on top.
In the long run, it will have a ripple affect and empower ALL the
marketers across the board. We are all in the same boat!
Let's make sure that it gets to its destination safely.

Regards,
A

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Collette

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Angela Kambarian

...Here is the solution: Always stick to your guns!
If you demand respect and good pay for your hard work,
you will weather the storm and come out on top.
In the long run, it will have a ripple affect and empower ALL the
marketers across the board. We are all in the same boat!
Let's make sure that it gets to its destination safely.

Regards,
A

More effective would be to let the quality of your work speak for you.

You cannot receive respect by simply 'demanding' it from others. Respect is given; not taken. You receive respect when you deserve it, give it to others, and give it to yourself.

All clients do not suck. In fact, MOST clients do not suck. If you truly feel that they do, then the only client you have should be yourself.

Most clients are not out to 'trick' you, they're not looking to 'get away with murder'. They're simply doing what everyone - including you - are doing: looking to get the best deal for their investment of time and money. Beginning a client relationship with the attitude that you are dealing with an enemy who is just waiting to strike, is a sure-fire way to ensure that the relationship is doomed from the start.

Most prospects you will encounter are woefully uneducated. This is true at ALL levels of business. There are an astonishing number of people running million-dollar businesses who have absolutely no clue about basic marketing. Of course, that ignorance extends to copywriting. Because of this, a prospect who believes a 'simple re-write' is all that is needed, is usually a prospect who is uneducated. It is your job - as a professional - to educate your prospect before they become your client.

As a professional, you will certainly encounter difficult prospects. And as a professional, you have the choice of deciding whether or not to take on a prospect who you know will be a difficult client.

Free will in action. It's a lovely thing.

Being a service provider (of any sort) requires you to market yourself to people. Beginning that marketing association with the belief that you are always right and the prospect is always wrong, will guarantee you a mediocre career filled with painful frustration.

If you want to be a service provider, but you don't like dealing with people, or your ego cannot take being questioned or challenged - you're in the wrong business.

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DavidO

15 years ago

Of course you're absolutely right, but the exception does not disprove the rule. The occasional neurotic who's impossible to live with doesn't mean that your mantra should not be "the customer is always right".

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