What's the difference between "persuasion" and "manipulation"?

No one likes followin' orders.

Everyone likes gettin' what they want.

Persuasion figures good here.

Manipulation don't.

So what about parents who threaten their kids for their good? Would it be OK
for you to use manipulation if you know the product was for the person's good?

For example, it's a $2,000 coaching program but the person has been burnt
so many times in the past that she is very wary of yours and can hardly
afford it. But YOU KNOW your program is different and works. The
normal persuasion will just fall flat. Would the end justify the means?

-Ray Edwards

Ah, that's good. Well put.

Here's another way to look at it, building on Ray's "fat" food example...

Would you rather convince overweight people to lose weight (aka gain health) if it means blaming everything on fast food restaurants?

Or would you rather tell people that it's their fault they are overweight -- because they eat too much fast food -- and fail to convince anyone to lose weight (aka put their health at risk)?

Obviously there are other reasons people are overweight, but you get the concept... if the only way to convince someone to do something that's beneficial to them, is by going off of what they already believe or agree with, then you would actually be doing them a disservice by failing to convince them just because of your desire to "tell it like it is".

So as long as you offer a product/service that people truly benefit from... I see no manipulation.

And the fact that this also benefits you (puts cash in your pocket) doesn't make a sliver of difference.

Just means it's a win-win situation.

Which is exactly how the world should be.

That's pretty much the bottom line. Persuasion focuses on the value exchange for the benefit of both parties. Manipulation focuses solely on the seller's benefit.

Alex

You must "care" to some extent otherwise you wouldn't be selling your product/service in the first place, except....

In PUA persuasion there is a mindset called "outcome independent". It's a state of mind where when a PUA approaches a girl he has the mindset that he doesn't care about whether the girl likes him or not. If he's rejected then he just moves to the next girl.

Newbies used to think that approaching was just a numbers game and the method was just to keep your motivation up till you hit the jackpot.

It's actually so that you demonstrate high value to the girl by being unreactive to her. The not caring gives off tiny BMIR's (Behavioural Manifestations of Internal Representations) the girl picks them up and assumes that you're the selector as opposed to the selected and drops into the frame that you're of the higher value in the dynamic. Attraction usually follows.

Maybe gjabiz by not caring if your prospect converts then you're showing how much you actually do care. The unspoken presupposition is that the product is so fabulous that if the prospect doesn't convert then more fool them.

Even though there is a grey area where both terms may overlap, 'manipulation'
does carry a strong idea that the subject has little choice in the matter. On the
other hand 'persuasion' indicates a choice from the subject. So I would prefer
to be persuaded into doing something than manipulated into doing it.

Here is an interesting graphic from the same book I quoted earlier:



-Ray Edwards

Here's the truth:

When we persuade, we use emotions and honorable subtleties.

When we manipulate, we use emotions and can choose between honorable or dishonorable subtleties.

Dan Kennedy says, "The truth of the matter is, as uncomfortable as it may be for some people, we're really in the psychological manipulation business."

The important caveat is we do it to deliver ethical value. Which, I believe is why manipulation can be a force for good when it's done right.

Listen, I struggled with the persuasion vs. manipulation argument when I started copywriting.

Until I realized the distinction between persuasion vs. manipulation is nominal at best--its moot. Doesn't matter. No important difference.

And, if you have to ask what the difference is?

You've got bigger problems.

Because what we're really talking about is the difference between right and wrong. Business ethics.

Which brings me to the second thing I want to say about this question.
Outside of business, there is a difference between manipulation and persuasion. This is where we start to talk about crime. Blackmailing, lying, and presenting someone with a lose-lose scenario.

But in the business world, that doesn't work. Sociopaths don't prosper when they act like sociopaths.

Now, if we manipulate the reader into a win-win scenario, then what's right or wrong?

A bit harder to decide, yes?

Well, let me see if I can persuade you to see it my way.

Imagine you and I are playing a card game.

You're a great card player. Recently though, you've had a string of losses. You have no confidence. You have something holding you back psychologically.

I sit across from you. I'm a terrible card player. But...

I'm a great magician.

Now, conventional wisdom says the game can go one of two ways, right?

Either you win or I win.

And if I cheat or manipulate the game, that's wrong--correct?

Well, not exactly.

Here's the catch:

I'll use my "magic" manipulation to give you a leg up.

I'm going to help you win.

Because I want to see you flourish in the next game you play... and I know you will.... all you need is a push in the right direction and a little confidence.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not going to lose my shirt-- but I'm going to make sure you're better off than you were before the game.

In other words--we're playing on the same team.

If we frame it this way--I think the word "manipulation" is a lot easier to stomach, don't you?

See, capitalism is all about value exchange.

And the only way value exchange happens on a continued basis is when a consumer trusts that the money he's paying for a product or service is less than what he receives.

In other words, business happens when the buyer feels like he wins--that what he receives is greater than what he gives.

And this is based on his perception. From beginning to end.

Some of the best sales letters--the ones that made me buy--kept me up at night, they burned a hole in my prefrontal cortex. I had no other choice but to buy.

I am sure I was "manipulated".

I'm darn glad I was.

Because what I paid for those products and services have multiplied my income and my sense of well-being tenfold.

I trust the manipulators who "sold" me. Even though they use 'manipulation and persuasion' I can spot like a purple cow.

It doesn't matter as long as the product is quality.

Jay Abraham calls these, "honorable subtleties." I agree. Call it manipulation, call it persuasion, call it whatever you want.

If I write something that gets a person to take action in their life, I sleep better. Using psychological 'rewiring' is a great way to get someone to advance by leaps and bounds.

Like John Carlton says, if you have a product that's going to help someone, shame on you for not doing everything you can to get it in their hands.

Now, this is kind of theoretical but there are some key takeaways. How can you apply this to your copy?

You won't write well if you don't see the value in what you're selling. Give yourself a gut check when you accept work. Does the client believe in their product? Do you believe in the product?

Once you're gut is in check--throw caution to the wind. Do everything you can to get that ethical value exchange happening.

Remember the magic of the guarantee. If a buyer can get his money back for a quality product that doesn't fit? That's ethical.

Ensure satisfaction. A good way to do this? Check testimonials vs. returns. A good product will bring a hoard of raving fans. A bad product will bring a hoard of people with pitchforks and torches.

Include legitimate reasons why your product is valuable. With scarcity, don't pretend like you're going to run out of eBook copies. With social proof--don't use fake testimonials. With price, don't make up fake values for your free bonuses. Be honest.

I don't see it that way. "Extract" is a concept that goes along with "manipulation."

I would say instead that my purpose in business is to make as much money as possible by offering value that customers regard as a fair exchange for their money.

Marcia Yudkin