Rip It To Shredds (Moved Post from Main...)

24 replies
Hi All,
I originally posted this in the main forum, and it was kindly suggested that it belongs over here, so I moved it.
******************************

I recently created a product, inspired by the "Desperate Buyers Only" approach to product creation. I would really appreciate it if you can pick it apart and tell me straight what works and what is not working about it. You can find it at: stopdebtcollectors**dot**org

A couple of notes right off the bat:

1) It's ugly, yes, I know. It lacks a proper header and images in general are quite sparse. Working on that...it's got a Belcher Button to it's credit though...

2) It's long - the sales letter I mean. The product is quite short (let's call it "concise") and the main bonus being offered is an ebook that is larger than the main report.

3)It lacks testimonials. Namely, because...I don't have any yet!! In fact, if you have ideas for best ways to generate them, please let me know.

4) Right now, it's being sold through e-junkie and I have not messed with the affiliate option there just yet. I would like to launch it at either paydotcom or clickbank, but frankly, do not want to pay the $49 at CB until I know it is converting, and I am wondering if paydotcom might actually be a better way to go (large well known network and it's free to be a vender, if I am not mistaken...)

In fact, if anyone is in the CC or related niche and wants to promote, feel free to PM (NOT soliciting and I don't know if there is a rule around here regarding making a comment like that - I just mention it in case there is any interest...)

Thanks very much in advance for your feedback on this!
#rip
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    • Profile picture of the author dou9las
      Great..!
      I didn't post a link before purely because I thought direct linking from the forums was "discouraged" and thought of as an overt attempt for backlinks - but hey, I'm all for it if that is no issue.

      Looking forward to hearing your feedback, and have a great nap!
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    It´s a good start.

    As Mark said, needs a LOT of polishing though.

    I like the angle, but you need to use shorter, sharper sentences and make it more emotionally powerful. Show how you were soiling your underwear because you were scared these ¨animals¨ would go after you or your wife... make them look like REAL *******s.

    Plus, you have this story of how things were bad... but never mention HOW you found the answer. To me, that´s a pretty major disconnect. I´d say you need to work on that.

    Your bullet points need to be more specific and, again, powerful. And you need more of them. If it´s 15 pages of no-fluff info you should be able to pull out some killer bullets.

    There are other problems, but essentially the letter just needs going over and polishing, for the most part.

    -Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author colmodwyer
    What is the page like a million pixels wide?

    Bring it down to 600 and you should see a nice bump in conversion.

    The font is a little hard to read too (Tahoma?), I'd think about pumping it up a few notches size wise.

    Colm
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    • Profile picture of the author dou9las
      Points well taken Colm and Dan, agreed and thanx.

      I am hoping Mark makes it back and gives me his detailed comments.

      Cheers,
      Doug

      **EDIT**
      Colm - I think it's closer to like 1,001,247 pixels wide. But your totally right - 600 is waaayy better..!!
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        • Profile picture of the author dou9las
          Wow Mark,
          I don't know where to begin to respond to your post - you've given me a TON of stuff to work on. It will undoubtedly take me some time to get to it all. Thanks for that!

          Only one comment that I would would want to mention for now: Not sure if you are familiar with Perry Belcher, and have ever heard of the "Belcher Button" ? Here is a video explanation of it:
          Belcher Button | Perry Belcher Top Cinverting But Button

          As you may know Perry Belcher is one of the big-money marketers out there. He did "Get Money from Google" and "Social Media Money System" - He does Frank Kern and Jeff Walker style launches for $1500 products, etc.

          Anyway, that is his buy button, and there seems to be a minor cult following out there of people that swear this design converts vastly better than typical buy buttons. Specifically, he says using the "Add To Cart" phrase works better than "Buy Now", something to do with people being less resistive to "add to cart".

          Your advice to provide a stronger call to action there is also very intuitive, so I just wanted to get your take on this.

          I'll give your offer (i.e. consultant services) some consideration too!

          Best Regards,

          Doug (aka "Will"...= pen name.)
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  • Profile picture of the author dou9las
    BTW - I took the advice of Colm, and reduced the page width to about 610px. I think it does help, but a lot of text and headings need some tweaking to present better in the new width...Just wondering if you all concur or?

    Mark, I noticed the sales letter page in your sig is actually closer to 800 - what's your take on page width?
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      • Profile picture of the author dou9las
        Hi Mark,
        You mentioned I should keep you up to speed as I make progress on my sales letter. I have implemented many of your suggestions (although I probably have some work yet to do...)

        I worked my way through it, trying to reduce the "wordiness" as you pointed out. I found it surprisingly hard to do that, although I did find places to cut or reword.

        I Added a couple of more relevant images and a video, although I guess I am just a little attached to the lovely and scantily clad "talk to the hand" model (gee...I wonder why..!) Actually, I do think it is a powerful image that will get peoples attention, and maybe can help connect with twenty-somethings that have gotten into trouble with credit.

        Changed the background color too, in an effort to make the overall look less drab.

        Let me know what you think.
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        • Profile picture of the author dou9las
          Okay, I addressed my last reply to Mark, but really, I am looking for general feedback.
          I implemented as many of the suggestions as I have had time to. Reduced the width, kicked up the font size, trimmed down some of the wordiness, added some image/video that are relevant to the target audience.

          Also, I have a general question about long sales letters and length. Prior to bumping up the font by 2 pixels, the entire sales letter, as a word doc with a 12 pt. font, was (embarrassed here) 11 pages long...after editing it down, it was still 10 pages (again, embarassed...)

          I know they call it a "long sales letter" but I didn't quite realize it was that long. However, it follows a formula, namely the one by Alexis Daws (DBO, recommended by Allen Says, owner of this forum...) i.e. her "5 Point Fish Hook" sales letter formula.

          One very important point out of the 5 is telling the personal story. All good and fine, but mine is long, even after I shortened it, meaning, just the part of the overall letter that tells the backstory.

          My question is, how long is too long? I have heard that long sales copy is what sells, and the counter argument that people get bored and click away...I guess I want to figure out if mine is just too damn long even in the realm of this type of copy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    I've written a sales letter that was 20 pages (and although the product was only just launched, it's converting like crazy).

    I don't think ten pages is long at all.

    I think you need to make your paragraphs shorter though... as in use more one-sentence paragraphs. It makes it look easier to read.

    My previous points still stand.

    -Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author dou9las
      Dan,
      Thanks for coming back to this.

      I will work on the one-sentence paragraphs and white space idea. I have seen that a lot and I know what you mean, is easier to read, and obviously there is a reason pro copywriters (like yourself I am guessing) do so much of that...!

      As for your other points: Bullets, I will keep working on.

      On the "major disconnect", when you first read it, I had some info about what I did to get my answers, but because of your comment previously, I have expanded that part, to remedy the disconnect, with the following heading and substantial section:

      Heading: "...I Poured Through Countless "Free" Articles, Lawyer Pitch Pages, And Questionable Paid Resources Online - and Found Nothing of Real Value...

      Copy:
      I started looking around online for information and resources to help us deal with this constant onslaught of debt collector harassment. I found everything from poorly written free articles that offer encouragement but no concrete system for stopping debt collectors, to a ton of sites by lawyers making big claims, but with big fees to match.

      I found some paid resources that claim to help deal with debt collectors, yet they focused much more on debt consolidation and debt management - in other words, debt repayment programs.

      ...(I talk about an example from my experience with debt repayment here...)

      ...One of these paid resources was an ebook apparently written by an author overseas, that had "researched and compiled" their information for the U.S. market. I don't know about you, but I would feel a lot more comfortable with a report written by someone in the U.S., for people in the U.S., who have experienced the problem and how to solve it - first hand - not just a report "researched and compiled" for the U.S. market.

      (No offence to writers outside of the U.S., it's just that when finances and federal law are concerned, first hand experience really counts - at least for me anyway.)

      After months of investigation, reading, researching, and personal experience - I finally had my answers. Between reading everything I could find online, and a few hardcover books about getting out of debt, I discovered some very important information that places power back into the hands of every day Americans - power that protects us from predatory lending and abusive debt collection practices.

      The ironic thing about this is - most "normal", every day Americans don't even know that they have any power at all to fight back against these abusive, corrupt debt collectors - and actually win. That's because the credit card companies, their high-priced lawyers, and the debt collection agencies, do everything they can to prevent you from knowing the truth!

      But knowledge is power. I have spent days, weeks, months enduring insult after injury, in order to uncover the knowledge that places power right back in our hands - in your hands...."
      ______________________

      I am thinking that is enough explanation to convey that I had a problem, did not find a decent solution amongst my competitors, so went out and did my homework, ultimately allowing me to create the ultimate solution...
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  • Profile picture of the author colmodwyer
    BTW - I took the advice of Colm, and reduced the page width to about 610px. I think it does help, but a lot of text and headings need some tweaking to present better in the new width...Just wondering if you all concur or?

    Mark, I noticed the sales letter page in your sig is actually closer to 800 - what's your take on page width?
    Page width is something that has been tested... The longer the lines before a break, the harder to read. So making your page thinner increases readability, which in turn typically increases conversion.

    It's not a personal opinion thing, it's a profit thing.

    Ultimately you always need to test. But I would imagine 99 times out of 100 a 600px letter will outpull an 800px letter by a decent margin when all is said and done.

    Colm
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      • Profile picture of the author dou9las
        Hi Mark
        BTW, I just noticed it says "banned" under your name, yet I couldn't imagine how that could be...

        Anyway, I was a little confused before - when people were saying "wordy" I mixed that up with the idea of being "too long". I realize now that long is fine for this form, yet "long winded" is the problem. (I guess I should have just went to my wife for a critique.. )

        Yet, I did go through and try to censor myself, trimmed, added, and re-worded for a net cut of 1 full page from the previous version. I keep hearing that it is still to "wordy" which I won't argue with. Problem is, when I read it and try to do the re-write, it seems like I am already expressing myself in my own, genuine voice and it doesn't feel "right" to me to change the wording.

        This is obviously part of the skill involved in being a good sales copywriter, so I am going to have to just working at it.

        One other fine point:
        I know you have reiterated that my sub-heads need work, including the first 2 being benefit oriented. In my approach to this letter, the first part is "telling the story" to relate with the prospect. So, the headlines are to emphasize the "pain" involved in the problem to be solved, with the solution to follow further in the sales letter (along with all those benefit sub-heads.)

        I think it would be hard for me tell the painful story but some how mix in the benefit sub-headings.


        I like the instant slide-up, have seen those around. I use aweber, and don't want to buy another software right now, but will eventually. I do have my opt-in set at a 30 second delay, unless something went haywire, but will try making it 45 or so.

        Again, thanks for your followup (banned or not..! )
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        • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
          Originally Posted by dou9las View Post

          Hi Mark
          BTW, I just noticed it says "banned" under your name, yet I couldn't imagine how that could be...
          Mark probably got sent to time-out for a few days.

          It happens.

          Don't anger the monkey god... he watches YOU.
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          • Profile picture of the author Intrepreneur
            The beginning, needs a tweak.. Im not a copywriter, but the first sentence doesn't even give me any reason to relate to you..

            Why not start with something the reader can relate to.. they won't relate with the words My Wife and I nor the sentence that follows it. It's too early to talk about yourself basically.

            Find something with a bit of wham bham recongnition in the world of debt.
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          • Profile picture of the author Bill Jeffels
            Hey dou9las,

            Mark e-mailed me.

            He'll be back on the 22nd, I'm sure he'll give you a hand then.

            Take care,

            Bill
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            • Profile picture of the author dou9las
              Guys,
              Thanks for chiming in, and Bill/Brian for the heads up on Mark's time-out..

              Intrepreneur,
              Glad to have your perspective. I don't want to alienate prospects, so I will work on those first few sentences.

              BTW, off-topic but: I see you need testimonials, and I did read part of your sales letter critique thread. I actually need testimonials too. Not sure if you have any interest in maybe swapping products along those lines? Will pm you in a bit.
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              • Profile picture of the author dou9las
                Hey Guys,
                It's been a while since my last post on this thread. I essentially tried to incorporate most (if not all) of your suggestions to the best of my (long winded) ability. I.E., once again, I went through the sales letter in an effort to make it more conversational and less wordy.

                Somewhere along the line, at about the point I realized my product was live for weeks and not selling, I decided to change up my model as I may have eluded to in previous posts.

                I have decided to use this report and the bonuses as free info kit that I am providing in exchange for contact information (i.e. list building.)

                Not sure if it is the nature of this niche with people having financial problems etc., but forget about losing prospects to an "overly wordy" sales letter; My bounce rates were through the roof, especially once I had put the PayPal seal in the first fold.

                On both paid and natural traffic, the majority of visitors had a visit length of "0" seconds. My assumption is that as desperate as they are, they are not parting with one cent for help given the pressure on their finances.

                My efforts now (besides offering a free report that can help people out) will be to do some email marketing with affiliate programs and CPA offers.

                I am resurrecting the thread because one or two people had asked me to keep them updated on my progress. Also, if any of you disagree with my reasoning here about going to a free lead-in offer, and think it would be wiser to try and monetize this as a paid product, please share your thoughts.

                Thanks!
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                • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
                  Originally Posted by dou9las View Post

                  Hey Guys,
                  It's been a while since my last post on this thread. I essentially tried to incorporate most (if not all) of your suggestions to the best of my (long winded) ability. I.E., once again, I went through the sales letter in an effort to make it more conversational and less wordy.

                  Somewhere along the line, at about the point I realized my product was live for weeks and not selling, I decided to change up my model as I may have eluded to in previous posts.

                  I have decided to use this report and the bonuses as free info kit that I am providing in exchange for contact information (i.e. list building.)

                  Not sure if it is the nature of this niche with people having financial problems etc., but forget about losing prospects to an "overly wordy" sales letter; My bounce rates were through the roof, especially once I had put the PayPal seal in the first fold.

                  On both paid and natural traffic, the majority of visitors had a visit length of "0" seconds. My assumption is that as desperate as they are, they are not parting with one cent for help given the pressure on their finances.

                  My efforts now (besides offering a free report that can help people out) will be to do some email marketing with affiliate programs and CPA offers.

                  I am resurrecting the thread because one or two people had asked me to keep them updated on my progress. Also, if any of you disagree with my reasoning here about going to a free lead-in offer, and think it would be wiser to try and monetize this as a paid product, please share your thoughts.

                  Thanks!
                  I haven't done any market research on this topic... but based on the current economic climate I would say people are more desperate than EVER for this info... and believe me... they WILL pay if they think it's worth it.

                  After all, things like gambling, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes... etc continual to sell like crazy... and people are still eating in restaurants, etc etc. Maybe not quite as many... but the point is that this product can and will sell.

                  But it needs good copy to do that.

                  Nobody wants to pay for anything... but if you have a great offer.. and killer copy... they won't feel like they have a choice.

                  -Dan
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                  • Profile picture of the author dou9las
                    Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

                    I haven't done any market research on this topic... but based on the current economic climate I would say people are more desperate than EVER for this info... and believe me... they WILL pay if they think it's worth it.

                    After all, things like gambling, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes... etc continual to sell like crazy... and people are still eating in restaurants, etc etc. Maybe not quite as many... but the point is that this product can and will sell.

                    But it needs good copy to do that.

                    Nobody wants to pay for anything... but if you have a great offer.. and killer copy... they won't feel like they have a choice.

                    -Dan
                    Dammit Dan...
                    Your not making it easy for me to deny that I am struggling with the copy writing I am going to have to consider hiring someone like yourself, and/or Mark, to show me the magic in action, since so far, I have not managed to be all that persuasive on my own. (to be honest, I don't yet have the budget for that however.)

                    The hard part is, for almost all of my life, I have considered myself a "good writer" , although not neccessarily a "good salesman", and in some ways, I wish I could reverse that statement...

                    But all of that aside - have any thoughts on the extreme bounce rate? I know the site hosting is not to blame (its Hostgator which is solid, not retardo Godaddy which I regret to say I have a few blogs hosted on. They suck IMO, but I digress. Thank the wine.)

                    And I switched up the look/feel about 4 different times. The latest 2 themes/logos being really quite pleasant - maybe not totally killer, professionally pimped out web design - but certainly not obnoxious or offensive. So, I could not figure out what was sending people IMMEDIATELY off my page other than they saw nothing for free to be had.

                    Since switching over to the quasi-squeeze lead capture, with the big red flashing neon signs exclaiming "GET YOUR FREE **** HERE", I have had much longer site visits and (like magic) an actual response rate that I can measure.

                    My Point Is - all the great copy writing in the world would not do me much good if the site visitors land on my page and go "Oh **** - its a SALESLETTER God Forbid, you mean spend real m-o-n-e-y? Heavens to Mergatroid, I better get the hell out of Dodge right now!..." and just bounce off. Get me?
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Douglas,

    I know what you're getting at... believe me, I do.

    And it's definitely a LOT easier to sell people on giving their email address to you than it is making them pay for something.

    I assume you're using a squeeze page model at the moment... you're then sending your visitors to your sales page, right?

    Squeeze pages can be profitable... and they can not. You've gotta test it to be sure... but there are definitely other ways to capture email addresses, such as a "popin" ad. Whether that will be more or less effective in your niche needs testing, though.

    You also wrote this:

    My Point Is - all the great copy writing in the world would not do me much good if the site visitors land on my page and go "Oh **** - its a SALESLETTER God Forbid, you mean spend real m-o-n-e-y? Heavens to Mergatroid, I better get the hell out of Dodge right now!..." and just bounce off. Get me?
    Here's the thing... people will always have that attitude, with rare exceptions (and even then, the attitude is still there, it's just dormant). What you need to do is hook them with a powerful headline that sucks them into your sales copy.

    That's what a copywriter does

    Now, you probably can't afford a good copywriter... I get that. In fact, that situation is WHY I started writing copy for myself in the first place!

    So my advice to you is put this on the back-burner... and instead do some affiliate CPA/offers... possibly in a completely different niche (but doesn't have to be).

    One thing you could do is promote ebooks that teach you how to budget, save money, avoid bankruptcy... books that are related to your main product but not the same. Build that list... use one of your free bonuses as bait... and then when you have made some cash... and hired a good copywriter... you've got a list you can unleash onto your sales page... and make some good initial capital to re-invest.

    Because as we both know copy isn't your strong point... so don't waste your time trying to sell stuff. Work on generating traffic (and use other people's copy as an affiliate).

    In the meantime, if you want to work on your copy chops, great... but I can tell you from experience it's a long, painful road to travel (though definitely rewarding).

    Kind regards,

    -Dan

    P.S. squeeze pages need to be short, sharp, and simple. Look at other good converters in your niche and see if you can borrow some of the concepts they're using.
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    • Profile picture of the author dou9las
      Hey Dan,
      Wanted to get back and reply to this.

      You point out lots of great stuff here. Was already thinking along the lines
      of promoting related credit/debt/budget type offers, and in fact my thank
      you page (redirect from opt-in) does that already.

      Since this is a wordpress site, I am thinking about using the blog functionality
      to aggregate relevant articles, as well as reviews of related CB products, etc. These won't have big obvious links on the home page, as not to detract from the conversion rate on the squeeze etc.

      I certainly would like to leverage outsourcing in many respects, I know that's the smart way to go, and would free up a lot of time. So far though, on all of my IM stuff, including a fair amount of article marketing, I have done the writing myself (except the occasional PLR article.)

      "Not" writing my own sales letters may take a little getting used to, especially because again, I've always "assumed" I write well (but of course, sales copy is way more than just "writing".)

      I guess my point is, learning to sell with words applies with Articles, BioBoxes, Adwords, etc. so I consider it an essential IM skill that I DO want to get very good at. That said, I'm sure hiring good copywriters is still just smart as a business strategy, both for learning purposes and simply getting things done effectively.

      One thing I would like to mention, and not to be argumentative towards any of they copywriting experts here at WF, just an observation: After being told to break up paragraphhs and re-write them in a more conversational style, I did that. I tried, though not always successfully, to make my paragraphs no longer than 2 sentences, with some short choppy ones sprinkled in (per direction from you guys and Jeff Johnson's stuff as well...)

      Then, I actully took a look at the sig links on a few of those that mentioned this to me. Some of the sales copy that I saw, frankly, didn't look much more or less conversational than my own...Not a big deal, but I was kind of confused by that.

      And, I know my copy also needs help in other ways, especially with headlines etc., so the points are well taken all in all.

      Anyway, thanks very much for sharing your expertise with me on this thread. I look forward to having the budget to hire you some day!
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  • Profile picture of the author David Raybould
    Dou9las-

    The big issue is that you're using a long
    form salesletter here to capture email
    addresses.

    Sure, it's your business, up to you how
    you run it... but there's a reason that
    most effective squeeze pages are tiny
    in comparison to this.

    Bottom line, you'll probably see an INSANE
    increase in your conversions if you turn
    this page into a regular squeeze page.

    That's just how it is.

    I was going to go ahead and critique the
    copy, as it definitely needs work, but to
    be honest, it's mostly redundant.

    Just check out a few squeeze page
    critiques some of the more experienced
    writers in here have done... that should
    let you know what you need to do.

    Good luck with it.

    -David Raybould
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    Whatever you need, my high converting copy puts more money in your pocket. PM for details. 10 years experience and 9 figure revenues.
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    • Profile picture of the author dou9las
      Hi David,
      Thanks for your comments.

      I am familiar with what you are talking about. Since I had been charging for the report and had the sales letter for that, and then decided to switch gears to a free offer, I ended up with a "hybrid".

      To be honest, although maybe not common, I had seen a recent example from Ewen Chia (in his Secret Affiliate Weapon 2) of a combination squeeze/sales letter and I actually modeled it after that.

      Also, my intention was to pull some SEO value out of it by leaving the content on the page. After signup, the visitor is redirected to a thank you page with offers on it, but no real content with my core keywords on it. So, without that content on the homepage, I don't see where else to put it.

      I realize this may not provide the best conversions, and I will be experimenting with the short squeeze approach too. I think you are right that conversions will go way up if I do that. It has been converting higher now as a free offer, but not as high as I thought.
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      • Profile picture of the author David Raybould
        Originally Posted by dou9las View Post

        I think you are right that conversions will go way up if I do that. It has been converting higher now as a free offer, but not as high as I thought.
        Just keep in mind - with an effective,
        short squeeze page, it's not too difficult
        to get conversions of 50% or higher.

        I'd guess the page is nowhere near that
        currently, but at least now you have an
        idea of what's possible.

        Good luck.

        -David Raybould
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        Killer Emails. Cash-spewing VSLs. Turbocharged Landing Pages.

        Whatever you need, my high converting copy puts more money in your pocket. PM for details. 10 years experience and 9 figure revenues.
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