I want you to be brutally honest

Hi Mark,

wow what can I say this is great stuff. I will have to have a few more reads to soak it all in. From the first glance I agree with most of what you have said. I will start putting it into action and see hows this helps over the next few weeks.

Thanks for the great input

Kelly

Thanks

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idb

15 years ago

Hi Dan, Colm,

Very good at spotting this. There have been a few sales but most of this total was actual downloads when it was being tested.

these downloads were free. It is so much easier to get people to use it when they don't have to pay....

Thanks

Kelly

Thanks

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Daniel Scott

15 years ago

Hmmm.

While some of what Mark said was accurate, it's all small stuff.

I don't imagine it will make a huge difference, if any, in conversions.

People are downloading it like crazy... that's good.

What kind of CR for a DOWNLOAD do you have?

Then, what kind of system do you have in place to make people want the paid version? Is the free software restricted by a 30 day trial, are features locked... how does it work?

Methinks it MAY be your marketing funnel more than anything... but I guess we'll see.

-Dan

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Daniel Scott

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

What kind of CR for a DOWNLOAD do you have?

Then, what kind of system do you have in place to make people want the paid version? Is the free software restricted by a 30 day trial, are features locked... how does it work?

Methinks it MAY be your marketing funnel more than anything... but I guess we'll see.

-Dan

My response was essentially "give us more info and we'll try and figure it out".

As I said, I don't think the problem is the copy. Could it be improved? Definitely... but I don't think that's the "500 pound bear in the room", as Vin would say.

-Dan

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nontemplates

15 years ago

Hi idb,

Browsing through the forums I saw this thread. I'm going to comment here as a member of your target market. I have a daughter that if this does what you say would LOVE your product. Right now she has to wait for the sing along for High School Musical tracks (and of course Hannah Montana) to come out. Being able to use any album would be fab. Does it really strip out all the vocals?

Anyway she probably wouldn't get it and if she saw it I'd veto the sale more than likely. Why? You have great graphics, great name and a strong dotcom domain to match, You can get all kinds of copy advice to pump up the features and excite the living daylights out of the kids. You can get ton loads of downloads but guess what? Whats being missed by EVERYONE so far?

Its Mom and Dad that have the credit cards (young teens and preteens are a HUGE part of your market as you know).

When I come over to the screen I don't give a rip about your copy. If you've got my child thats covered (I'm prettty invovled with their hobbies so i'd read a bit to be honest- being a dad rocks!). No fancy words are going to sell me more but what I want is to see stability and credibility on your page beyond the sales copy. I'm the one sending the cash and frankly reputable software companies with a great products have a full website not a sales letter page as their main page. I'd go searching for another site I feel comportabe with that has a similar product. Something more conventional because thats what parents want when they send out cash.

With a full website and a great product and graphics you can make yourself look big and relax a bit of my fears but to this Dad you make yourself look small with a sales letter page as your main page.

Thanks
1 reply

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Daniel Scott

15 years ago

Not surprisingly, I have to disagree here.

Products are sold every day using a sales letter. Most internet products sell best that way, as have been proven in many different examples by testing.

If people will whip out their credit card for every other product sold using a sales letter, why not this one?

Plus, I'm not 100% sure the target market is mainly kids... lots of people LOVE karoke at bars and what not here in Australia, and most sales of Singstar are made to young adults (20 - 25). I know this for a fact... I used to work in EB Games (Gamestop).

Plus, the software is getting downloaded... so that makes me think the copy is doing it's job, more or less. If people use the product and love it, then they SHOULD be buying... assuming there's enough of a reason for them to do so (as in the software is locked in some way).

I could be wrong though.

-Dan

EDIT: To clarify... I don't think the copy is good. It needs a LOT of work... but 30 000 downloads should translate into more sales.

Originally Posted by nontemplates

Hi idb,

Browsing through the forums I saw this thread. I'm going to comment here as a member of your target market. I have a daughter that if this does what you say would LOVE your product. Right now she has to wait for the sing along for High School Musical tracks (and of course Hannah Montana) to come out. Being able to use any album would be fab. Does it really strip out all the vocals?

Anyway she probably wouldn't get it and if she saw it I'd veto the sale more than likely. Why? You have great graphics, great name and a strong dotcom domain to match, You can get all kinds of copy advice to pump up the features and excite the living daylights out of the kids. You can get ton loads of downloads but guess what? Whats being missed by EVERYONE so far?

Its Mom and Dad that have the credit cards (young teens and preteens are a HUGE part of your market as you know).

When I come over to the screen I don't give a rip about your copy. If you've got my child thats covered (I'm prettty invovled with their hobbies so i'd read a bit to be honest- being a dad rocks!). No fancy words are going to sell me more but what I want is to see stability and credibility on your page beyond the sales copy. I'm the one sending the cash and frankly reputable software companies with a great products have a full website not a sales letter page as their main page. I'd go searching for another site I feel comportabe with that has a similar product. Something more conventional because thats what parents want when they send out cash.

With a full website and a great product and graphics you can make yourself look big and relax a bit of my fears but to this Dad you make yourself look small with a sales letter page as your main page.

Thanks
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nontemplates 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Products are sold every day using a sales letter. Most internet products sell best that way, as have been proven in many different examples by testing.

There is nothing about this that is particularly an Internet software product. Its for execution on a PC. It can be put on a disk in 30 seconds flat. You can buy a case and drop on a pretty good label that makes you look like Microsoft and MAKE PROFIT on the shipping and handling for those who want a physical shipment (and lots of people reuire that for backup reason). This is basic stuff and incredible easy to do and it IS how mainline, reputable and respected software companies do it. Fact and undeniable.

So the question is does a parent feel more comfortable buying from a site that uses the convention ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of reputable sotware makers use or a sales letter page? We're back to the whole does one formula fit all discusion.

I could be wrong though.

Yep. I agree. I bet the OP will not say that the teen market is not a HUGE part of his market. Google is your friend. Last time I looked he had teen images 6 or 7 to 1 on the site. As for 30,000 downloads and little sales - Thats another HUGE clue. Its not proof positive but hardly worth overlooking. Thats exactly what you would expect if the people downloading it don't have the means to buy it.

idb I would not send a dime to any copywriter for copy or a more detailed critique (which I wouldn't recommend anyway) until you find out if you even have the right format selling this on.
- Thanks
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nontemplates

15 years ago

Not too thrilled with the pop up when I try to leave the site either. Kind of a red flag

Sent you a PM about a couple of other things.

Thanks

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Daniel Scott

15 years ago

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be a good idea to offer a physical option as well... but that's NOT what we were discussing.

My point was that, for items that are sold over the internet, like this one, long sales copy usually outperforms everything else. Not in every case, but enough so that long sales copy is usually the "default".

I don't see why you think Google images will help you figure out what your target market is. It won't tell you anything.

The thing is, Mike, you keep projecting YOUR opinions as "fact and undeniable"... and they're not. They are just your opinions, and some of them have been proven incorrect by marketers much better than you or I.

-Dan

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nontemplates

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be a good idea to offer a physical option as well... but that's NOT what we were discussing..... long sales copy usually outperforms everything else. Not in every case, but enough so that long sales copy is usually the "default".

Whose the we? The Op has a problem. He's bringing in a load of traffic. His copy is good enough that he is getting a ton of downloads and no sales. Any and everything that may be the problem is what we are discussing or at least I am. I bet thats what he cares about - Sales. The very first thing a really profesional copywriter should do is assess whether the format is right - unless the only thing he can write copy for is a sales letter page.

Does eveything sell best on a sales letter page (not a question of short or long)? and if so please post that INDEPENDENT market research that would show that mainline software sellers who use a conventional website are imbeciles. Dead serious. Post the raw data not a personal testimonial or a quote from another copywriter who depends heavily on a sales letter page that everything sells best with a sales letter page. Put the proof up -

I'm betting with those conditions crickets will be chirping for the rest of this thread.

I don't see why you think Google images will help you figure out what your target market is. It won't tell you anything.

Dan please reread with observation to pronoun agreement. HE is not Google. I didn't say a thing about Google images. Google one of the hottest names in music - Hannah Montana. She alone drives a huge maket. Millions want to be like here and sing with her. Sing alongs in the teen market is big. I said that the OPs images on HIS site is 6 or 7 to 1 teen. Not Google Images.

LOL. You know nothing about this market but still you persist. IF you just took the time and look at the OP's page you would see that the Op IS targeting teens and then you wouldn't have to object to the flat out obvious.

FACT UNDENIABLE - The sing along market has a huge teen market and teens need parents with cards to buy this product.
FACT UNDENIABLE - All mainline software sellers sell their software from a website not just a sales letter page.

The facts don't change because you can't deal with them Dan. They are what they are. Thats why we call them facts. My advice for the OP to look at that possibility of selling from a full website as well violates not one proven marketing principle. You are just plain fudging it when you state I have been proven wrong.

I will wait for the independently verified market data that indicates that everything sells equally well with a sales letter page alone. You'll make alot of money converting all those software makers over Dan. Get to it. You are going to be rich!

or

Crickets will chirp.

Thanks

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Daniel Scott

15 years ago

Mike,

Putting aside your childish little snippets... here's my thoughts on the matter.

Big companies waste millions every year. If you doubt that look at the fact that all those Madison Avenue ad companies make craptonnes of money for advertising that wins awards but that often gets zero results.

Compare that to guys like John Reese, Perry Marshall, Rich Shefren etc - all of which (well, maybe not Reese, but he might) work with fortune 500 companies, and are absolute testing NUTS... well, I know who I'm going to take my advice from.

Saying I know nothing about this market is bull****. I used to sell stuff exactly like this... so I have a bit of an idea about who buys it. Yes, the teen market is huge. So is the young woman market (18 - 30). Both may want to buy this product, and kids are definitely able to convince their parents to buy them games (which is more or less what this is, a karoke game) over the net.

Now, I admit I don't have the sources for my whole "long copy rocks" argument handy, so you can dismiss that if you like. In fact, you probably would anyway. But I personally know quite a few people who sell software who found their conversions to increase when they used a long-form salesletter.

Here's the thing, Mike... I've actually put some goddamn effort into learning my craft and knowing what I'm talking about. Maybe you could tell us what, if any, experience you have that qualifies you to even POST in this thread as though your opinions are fact.

This isn't about you "going against the grain" or any other bull**** that you like to think. You're not important enough for that. It's about you using your PREFERENCES as though they are fact.

Copywriting rule #1: you are not EVER your target market. You are ONE PERSON. You may fit INTO the target market... but you are still not the target market.

-Dan

P.S. As for all "mainline" sellers selling via a software page, they don't need to do a LOT of stuff that smaller guys do. In the same way I've seen some AWFUL copy make millions because of a person's "name", Microsoft don't need to have amazing marketing. They already own the market, and if someone else wants to even get a slice of the pie they will have to be amazing to do it. The way Microsoft market is going to be different from the way a "small guy" markets, simply because of the customer's existing mindset.

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nontemplates 15 years ago

Dan,

I don't really see in any of that rant any independent data offered that would be needed to discount what an entire industry of marketers of software products do. My eyes kind of glaze over on a forum when I see cursing and swearing . Worse when its a writer who should be able to communicate without it. I'd wish you'd stop that . It doesn't refelect well professionally and I certainly am not going to respond in kind.

I don't see anything I said proven wrong. OP's target market to a large degree is the teen market. You just disagreed to disagree and the software industry of which the OP is a part does predominantly use websites as a sales tool. There are thousands of downloadable software vendors on download.com and they almost all have websites and only a fraction would be considered big. Your point about Micorsoft is just a diversion. All size software vendors predominatly use websites online.

The facts stated are still untouched despite cursing putdowns and hand waving.

You like to say other people's points are opinions but yours is proven but now have become all enraged because I've insisted on seeing that data (again not short versus long but that sales letter pages by themselves are more effective than the OPs industry
standard website strategy). I'm sorry that data needs to be presented without any back and forth. Put it up before you tell the OP to forget about that being a potential problem. Its not me telling her to go against the convention and "the grain" in her industry. Its you.

Name dropping what a few people allegedly believe to back up your point is not acceptable data. Its hearsay

Simple. I created and sold training software packaged precisely as I stated and did quite well with it until I moved on to something else. Thats why I stated what I did. Yes I sold off of the site quite a bit but having the website I set up for it helped create confidence. Even the customers who never bought from it told me they visited it in their decision making process.

I find it HIGHLY amusing that hundreds of millions of dollars are spent a year on websites and yet a few copywriters on a forum claim that everything can be sold best on a sales letter page. Frankly only because thats their specialty. They know it all and the rest of companies are just stupid for wasting the money. That speaks volumes to the level of expertise being offered. I leave the reader to determine how likely that "truth" is. However, in this case the OP already has multi pages and a navigation system and I bet is already considering a website. Trying to shoot down what very well may increase sales is just pure silliness. Might be other things but not a darn person here knows it isn't.
- Thanks
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colmodwyer

15 years ago

Hi Dan, Colm,

Very good at spotting this. There have been a few sales but most of this total was actual downloads when it was being tested.

these downloads were free. It is so much easier to get people to use it when they don't have to pay....

Thanks

Kelly

Can you not keep it free then and think about an upsell?

30,000 names on the list isn't too shabby at all... And of course you'll add to that as you drive leads. Then get some Napster affiliate links going or whatever and try and create some recurring income on the back-end.

I see you've got something going with MP3's already, that not profitable?

Just a thought.

Colm

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RentItNow

15 years ago

Couple things I notice.
1) Is the pink color targetted to a teen girl market? All graphics are alone this line as well. If you want bar singers, direct it to them! My soon to be wife would buy this buy she would be offended by the girly girl covers and such.
2) Your reviews on the left. I would use some eye candy, flare for them.
3) My gut tells me a video would work wonders for this site.
4) A headline more like the famous "Piano" headline may get to people more.
5) Personal prefernce but I would put the left column on the right.

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idb

15 years ago

Wow it seems this got to be an interesting discussion since last I looked.

The free option is for testing. This branded version is all about sales. The backend mp3's offer does have a small commission but nothing amazing.

This was mainly used as a main selling point of difference to the rest of the market.

The main problem is that with people getting stuff for free they are not really pre-qualified like a paying customer is. As I mentioned before, anyone can give stuff away for free, getting a person to pay for it is the challenge.

Anyway the idea is to use Click Bank's affiliate program to generate sales. The customers will then be marketed various internal and external products afterwards.

As you have noticed this target market is female oriented, kids - teens - 30ish.

I also agree credibility would probably help a lot. I am looking at adding a few more pictures and some videos to help out with this.

A full blown website is definitely an option, however this takes considerable resources to keep updated and interesting. This may happen in the future but not yet.

On a side note, SingStar by Sony is made this way, but they have a massive budget for marketing via many different means. Also appears they don't really sell much off that site so it is more informational.

A physical product is also the ideal and this is going to be offered once the customer has purchased.

However ClickBank was chosen for the affiliates who are instantly available. As ClickBank don't currently have a physical delivery option main stream yet it has to be a download.

However ClickBank physical delivery is being beta tested and once this goes live it will be a physical product only.

I will stay away from the sales page saga at this stage; there are good points and bad points for both. It is dependent on too many variables (however I have been told many females don't like traditional long sales pages but this is too big a statement to prove / disapprove...)

I am working on an updated sales page and wil post it shortly

Thanks for all the great help so far.

Kelly

Thanks
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nontemplates

15 years ago

The main problem is that with people getting stuff for free they are not really pre-qualified like a paying customer is. As I mentioned before, anyone can give stuff away for free, getting a person to pay for it is the challenge.

Quick question. Could the software use expire or become limited after a certain time? You wouldn't want to do that? Lets just say that if my daughter started using this and it stopped she might get qualified real quick by nagging dear old dad (provided dear old dad felt he could trust the site) ;

Originally Posted by idb

As you have noticed this target market is female oriented, kids - teens - 30ish. I also agree credibility would probably help a lot.

Suspected as much. Kids and teens go wild for this with all the disney singing stars. Its enough to give you a headache when they get together.

Its kind of a double sell as I was trying to point out. With that age group you have to get the teens to want it (I think you have a winner there) and get the parents to feel as comfortable as possible in saying yes.

A full blown website is definitely an option, however this takes considerable resources to keep updated and interesting. This may happen in the future but not yet.

I think you are much closer than you think to a websites though. Its not like blogging. I've seen some software companies have the same site up for years. Given the navigation and graphics you already have you could have both VERY easily and open all kinds of great options to drive traffic and create sales opportunities that only a website can provide plus once you go multiple products etc then its a done deal anyway. So many great options for a product like this at this time. Great timing. Probably the best non "making money" product I have seen anyone on this forum selling.

Anyway best of luck to you. I left a PM for you about the product. Might grab one for my daughter.

Thanks

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idb

15 years ago

Just uploaded an updated page.

Have a look and let me know

Thanks

Kelly

Singing Superstar | The Greatest Karaoke Singing Software For Your PC

Thanks

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting 15 years ago

[DELETED]

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- Collette 15 years ago
  
  You need video of people actually using this product.
  
  Think about your market. Forget the age demographics for a moment - what's the one thing they all have in common?
  
  They are all wanna-be performing superstar singers.
  
  People who love karoke love it because it's a way to indulge their fantasies. So let them indulge.
  
  A problem I would have with ordering from you is that you don't give a physical address and phone # for contacting you (yes, I found the address, but it's buried at the bottom of the FAQ. And no phone#. And I had to work way too hard to find it).
  
  Personally, I don't think I'd be ordering a $47 product from someone I don't know, who's supposedly on the other side of the world from me, and who I can only contact by email or snail mail. Doesn't give me a sense of confidence as a buyer.
  
  You have copy issues, but I don't think that's your main problem. I think it's the way you're presenting the product.
  
  Tween - 30's is an awfully wide demographic range. Unless you have a huge marketing budget, and can run several campaigns, you're going to have a hard time zeroing in on all the right hot buttons for your actual buyers. I'd suggest putting up a poll or some other interactive "tool" that helps you get a better 'fix' on exactly 'who' is downloading your demo (maybe have the poll as a pre-cursor or follow-up to downloading). Once you know who's downloading - age, sex, interest, geographical location - you'll have a better idea of how to position your copy.
  
  Thanks
  
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RentItNow

15 years ago

The layout is much better. Add a video and test some other headlines and I think you could do some sales.

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lenlatimer

15 years ago

Hi Kelly,
I agree with many of the remarks. I do think there are also adults in Karaoke. We have night clubs all over LA who have Karaoke nights.

Here my take. I think you have a trust issue. Here are some examples.

100% Trust Ordering
Don't think you need to hit me with this over and over. The trusted site logo handles that. It may make a person feel you're too eager to get their money, and actually trust you less.

100% legal music from all your favorite artists
As a customer, I'd be asking - is this current music from the charts, or old songs or amateur songs. This could be explained better.

In-built converter
I assumed this would remove the vocal from a CD? If so explain it and some of the science behind it. I would still be wondering how my favorite CD becomes a Karaoke CD. Does it mess up the CD or is it copied to the PC? I don't know. What kind of quality? Your prospect would have a lot of questions you could probably answer in your ad.

The testimonials are OK -but you could do better. Particularly testimonials from actual users telling you how amazed they were with your machine - what it did for them, etc, rather that review sites.

You have a lot of one or two sentence paragraphs. Bullet points are good, but you also need some more in-depth technical stuff. Give me more detail. Here's John Carlton taking about car nuts. "He will prattle endlessly and with palpable passion about overhead cam shafts, Hearst 5-speed trannies, and why the only '62 Chevy Impala worth owning in the muscle car with the beefy 326 cubic inch engine, not the one with the anemic 283." - lots of details.

The more you tell the more you sell.

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