18 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}
18 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}

New Writer Wants Baptism by Fire

by davidcane
18 replies
Hello all,

Relative newb here, though no stranger to word-weaving. I figured I'd go the 'baptism-by-fire' route and introduce myself with a little piece of copy I just wrote. It's a brief project description for the portfolio page of an (amazing!) Italian web agency: terrificly talented trio, spitting out one striking website after another... but, they can't speak English. I can, and would really like to know what you think of my copywriting skills. In my (preemptive) defense, please understand that said skills are in a completely embryonic stage. So, I expect you to be harsh and unforgiving, as well as full of good advice and constructive criticism. Here goes...

We've just completed our project for Antico Setificio Fiorentino, one of the most fascinating businesses we've ever had the pleasure to work with. This silk weaving workshop has been operating in Florence since 1786, and today is producing luxury fabrics for some of the most exclusive customers in the world... on the same looms they were using back then! Our goal was to create a website that could elegantly convey the lure of such a unique place, and pair it with all the best tools of today, like responsive design and dynamic templates, for a web experience that is engaging and rewarding, strikingly sophisticated yet efficient and user-friendly. We feel like we did a decent job... what do you think?
#baptism #writer
  • Profile picture of the author Benjamin Farthing
    Couple words of advice:

    On your portfolio page, consider a line beneath the client name saying what sort of business they are. I want to look at what you've done for businesses similar to mine. I don't want to click through each one until I find one.

    I looked over the Antico Setificio Fiorentino copy. I get that you want it to sound sophisticated, but you're losing some essential clarity along the way.

    On your portfolio page, we've got this paragraph:

    "The Antico Setificio Fiorentino is a unique part of florentine history: With hand-operated and semi-mechanical looms, legacy of the tradition of silk production in Florence, has been making prestigious made-to-measure fabrics today since 1786, when it was established by the union of noble florentine families."

    There's just too much going on in that sentence, to the point where I'm confused at the meaning. I think the colon is what's doing it. The subject of the sentence gets blurred somewhere around "legacy of the tradition of silk production in Florence." (By the way, "legacy of the tradition" is repetitive and redundant.")

    I'd chop that into a couple sentences. You can keep that sophisticated feel by using sophisticated-sounding words (make sure they're common enough for your prospects to understand). Long sentences are usually fine, too, but not sentences with this many asides and addendums in the middle. Long is okay. Complicated and confusing is not.

    And then on the site itself, there's this sentence:

    "Welcome to the home of magnificence, where the work of man respects priceless tenets, giving elegance and sophistication to those passionate about beauty."

    It does great establishing a sophisticated tone, but it doesn't mean anything. I think "respects" is too general of a word, and "priceless" is the wrong word. The line needs a little more on what we're actually talking about here. You're saying that the craft they perform there uses traditional methods, they adhere to traditional craft & business values, and it's not just because it's the best craft choice, it's because it respects tradition. Is that right?

    Write more concretely. Something like "our craftsmanship remains true to centuries of tradition."

    The same goes for that last part. I think "elegance and sophistication to those passionate about beauty" can be more concrete. It's also confusing. The sentence starts out praising the craftsmanship, so I expect "elegance and sophistication" will also be describing the work or product. But instead it's complimenting and promising benefits to the prospect (I think). Put those two ideas - praising the craftsmanship, complimenting the prospect - in two different sentences. A new sentence means a new idea, so the reader is less thrown when we shift from one idea to the next.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532148].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author davidcane
      Originally Posted by Benjamin Farthing View Post

      Couple words of advice:

      On your portfolio page, consider a line beneath the client name saying what sort of business they are. I want to look at what you've done for businesses similar to mine. I don't want to click through each one until I find one.

      I looked over the Antico Setificio Fiorentino copy. I get that you want it to sound sophisticated, but you're losing some essential clarity along the way.

      On your portfolio page, we've got this paragraph:

      "The Antico Setificio Fiorentino is a unique part of florentine history: With hand-operated and semi-mechanical looms, legacy of the tradition of silk production in Florence, has been making prestigious made-to-measure fabrics today since 1786, when it was established by the union of noble florentine families."

      There's just too much going on in that sentence, to the point where I'm confused at the meaning. I think the colon is what's doing it. The subject of the sentence gets blurred somewhere around "legacy of the tradition of silk production in Florence." (By the way, "legacy of the tradition" is repetitive and redundant.")

      I'd chop that into a couple sentences. You can keep that sophisticated feel by using sophisticated-sounding words (make sure they're common enough for your prospects to understand). Long sentences are usually fine, too, but not sentences with this many asides and addendums in the middle. Long is okay. Complicated and confusing is not.

      And then on the site itself, there's this sentence:

      "Welcome to the home of magnificence, where the work of man respects priceless tenets, giving elegance and sophistication to those passionate about beauty."

      It does great establishing a sophisticated tone, but it doesn't mean anything. I think "respects" is too general of a word, and "priceless" is the wrong word. The line needs a little more on what we're actually talking about here. You're saying that the craft they perform there uses traditional methods, they adhere to traditional craft & business values, and it's not just because it's the best craft choice, it's because it respects tradition. Is that right?

      Write more concretely. Something like "our craftsmanship remains true to centuries of tradition."

      The same goes for that last part. I think "elegance and sophistication to those passionate about beauty" can be more concrete. It's also confusing. The sentence starts out praising the craftsmanship, so I expect "elegance and sophistication" will also be describing the work or product. But instead it's complimenting and promising benefits to the prospect (I think). Put those two ideas - praising the craftsmanship, complimenting the prospect - in two different sentences. A new sentence means a new idea, so the reader is less thrown when we shift from one idea to the next.

      Ben, thanks so much for the answer, but I don't think I made myself sufficiently clear. I apologize about the misunderstanding and lemme try again:

      The copy that is currently on the website of Riot.design is what they themselves had written (a while ago, I suppose). These are three kids who build and design great websites but have poor command of the English language. That is NOT my website, (I wish it were, but I don't know html from Eli Wiesel), so I wasn't trying to plug myself there. Probably should have just avoided hyperlinking altogether. Anyways,these guys are merely considering hiring me to handle their English language copy. On the other hand, the copy on the Antico Setificio website was done, presumably, by the silkweavers themselves... I have no idea. It is much better than Riot's, but still not great IMHO, and you seem to concur. BTW, I sure WISH I could work for them too, 'cause they're part of a group that grosses over 100 mil x year. But, as of now, I have absolutely no relationship with them.

      The only copy I wrote, and the one I was asking y'all to evaluate, is the one I pasted in my original message, and which, for clarity's sake, I will paste again below. It is intended as the project description on the portfolio page of the web agency (who built the site for the silkweavers, who shot the cat, who killed the worm, etc.) and would replace the description they currently have on there, and which you reference in your answer. Here goes again..

      We've just completed our project for Antico Setificio Fiorentino, one of the most fascinating businesses we've ever had the pleasure to work with. This silk weaving workshop has been operating in Florence since 1786, and today is producing luxury fabrics for some of the most exclusive customers in the world... on the same looms they were using back then! Our goal was to create a website that could elegantly convey the lure of such a unique place, and pair it with all the best tools of today, like responsive design and dynamic templates, for a web experience that is engaging and rewarding, strikingly sophisticated yet efficient and user-friendly. We feel like we did a decent job... what do you think?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532188].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author davidcane
        BTW, Ben, what Ivy? I'm a Penn alumn myself
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532189].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DKCopywriter
    If the agency doesn't speak English, then what business do you have writing their copy in English? It's going to be incredibly misleading, as their prospects are going to expect them to speak English.

    As for your description, their prospect isn't Antico Setificio Fiorentino's prospect. Why should they care about how long they've been operating or who their customers are? That first part is selling ASF and not the agency's web design services.

    It is only at the second part that you start selling the agency's services when you should have been doing so from the get go.

    Yes, use some interesting facts about ASF, but don't start with that and end with the agency. Work it in there. Start and end with the agency.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532164].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author davidcane
      Originally Posted by DKCopywriter View Post

      If the agency doesn't speak English, then what business do you have writing their copy in English? It's going to be incredibly misleading, as their prospects are going to expect them to speak English.

      As for your description, their prospect isn't Antico Setificio Fiorentino's prospect. Why should they care about how long they've been operating or who their customers are? That first part is selling ASF and not the agency's web design services.

      It is only at the second part that you start selling the agency's services when you should have been doing so from the get go.

      Yes, use some interesting facts about ASF, but don't start with that and end with the agency. Work it in there. Start and end with the agency.

      Ah, there was more.well, of course they are also plugging their customer, after all they're doing their SEO and (a part of) their marketing. A good Web Agency shouldn't (and doesn't) forget about their customer the minute they type the last line of code into wordpress, at least around here... In the specific case, ASF is part of a large and rapidly growing group that is now selling jeans at 800$ a pair. I'm sure they want to keep that relationship going...Secondly, and most importantly, they're trying to show THEIR customers what kind of awesome brands have put their trust into Riot.design. How many silk weaving stores do you know that have been continuously operating since the American Revolution, using 18th century looms to produce fabrics for the Kremlin or the King of Denmark? In case you haven't noticed, these guys are doing websites for banks, designer vodkas, well-known fashion houses and major motion pictures, not personal pages of plumbers and real-estate agents. They're a pretty big deal for being three kids from the 'burbs...

      That said, you may actually have a point about not starting from the agency's customers but from the agency itself, so thanks, I will treasure that piece of advice.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532373].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DKCopywriter
    "We feel like we did a decent job....what do you think?" tells me that they aren't sure they did a good job. That they aren't confident in their web design skills.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532197].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author DKCopywriter
    Again, though, I feel like this is a weak copywriting prospect to begin with. You're writing their copy in English when they don't speak it. You should be improving their Italian copy, but I doubt you're fluent in Italian.

    When a prospect reads their page in English and comes in or calls them, how do you think they'll feel when the people they talk to don't speak English? That wastes the agency's time and their prospect's time.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532204].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author davidcane
      Originally Posted by DKCopywriter View Post

      Again, though, I feel like this is a weak copywriting prospect to begin with. You're writing their copy in English when they don't speak it. You should be improving their Italian copy, but I doubt you're fluent in Italian.

      When a prospect reads their page in English and comes in or calls them, how do you think they'll feel when the people they talk to don't speak English? That wastes the agency's time and their prospect's time.
      DK, wow, I came here with the best of attitudes, hoping for productive dialogue that would give me something professionally. At least Benjamin was trying to find positives and give encouraging feedback about tangible aspects of the copy. He just happened to be commenting on a bunch of copy I had not written... All I'm getting from you, instead, is negativity. And may I add, in my most humble and personal opinion, negativity coated in a thick layer of "Idontknowwhatthefukkimtalkingabout"

      Let me address your concerns as quickly as my anal retentiveness allows me to do:

      You wonder why these guys (or ANY Italian Business, for that matter) would even bother to have an English version of their website, since they may not be able to speak perfect English when an Anglophone prospect comes ringing. WOW. Do I even need to explain this? Ok, so, you clearly have absolutely no idea how the (Italian) business world works or where it's going. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but... No. 1 they'd be thrilled to even just have a prospect from the US give 'em a call, and if this person wanted to buy a website from them, because he was intrigued by their (undeniable) talent and engaged by their own website, I'm sure he wouldn't be too disappointed, or surprised, to not hear Winston Churchill on the other end of the line. Heck, worst case I'll do the talking for them, I'm an interpreter too. N. 2, you don't seem to realize that for an Italian business, having a website in English isn't about trying to sell to the US. It is first and foremost an image thing, then it's about telling the world (and your own country, and your competition) that you are ready to do business abroad, and that, in practical terms for us, usually means France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Switzerland, Turkey, Russia etc. and maybe the UK. In case you haven't noticed, your language is the international language of the planet, EU included. Having a good English version makes you more compelling to all of your international audience (at least until you can have your website translated into 196 different idioms), and demonstrates a commitmemnt to excellence and quality in all areas of your work.

      You suggest I should instead concentrate on their Italian copy. Good point. Guess what, I am. I simply thought this may not be the right place to get my Italian copy evaluated. But perhaps I was wrong. Should I run it by you? ...which brings us to our final point: you doubt I am fluent in Italian. Actually, I am a native Italian and former tenure-track professor of Italian literature at an excellent private college in the US (ever been?). In all honesty, my Italian is far better than my English.


      And you wonder why you're not getting any work! I gave you some honest and well-meaning advice on the other thread (which is how you found me), and you give me this...

      Best of luck on all your future endeavors, my Indian food is here (yes, Indian food in Italy! )
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532312].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author DKCopywriter
        Originally Posted by davidcane View Post

        DK, wow, I came here with the best of attitudes, hoping for productive dialogue that would give me something professionally. At least Benjamin was trying to find positives and give encouraging feedback about tangible aspects of the copy. He just happened to be commenting on a bunch of copy I had not written... All I'm getting from you, instead, is negativity. And may I add, in my most humble and personal opinion, negativity coated in a thick layer of "Idontknowwhatthefukkimtalkingabout"

        Let me address your concerns as quickly as my anal retentiveness allows me to do:

        You wonder why these guys (or ANY Italian Business, for that matter) would even bother to have an English version of their website, since they may not be able to speak perfect English when an Anglophone prospect comes ringing. WOW. Do I even need to explain this? Ok, so, you clearly have absolutely no idea how the (Italian) business world works or where it's going. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but... No. 1 they'd be thrilled to even just have a prospect from the US give 'em a call, and if this person wanted to buy a website from them, because he was intrigued by their (undeniable) talent and engaged by their own website, I'm sure he wouldn't be too disappointed, or surprised, to not hear Winston Churchill on the other end of the line. Heck, worst case I'll do the talking for them, I'm an interpreter too. N. 2, you don't seem to realize that for an Italian business, having a website in English isn't about trying to sell to the US. It is first and foremost an image thing, then it's about telling the world (and your own country, and your competition) that you are ready to do business abroad, and that, in practical terms for us, usually means France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Switzerland, Turkey, Russia etc. and maybe the UK. In case you haven't noticed, your language is the international language of the planet, EU included. Having a good English version makes you more compelling to all of your international audience (at least until you can have your website translated into 196 different idioms), and demonstrates a commitmemnt to excellence and quality in all areas of your work.

        You suggest I should instead concentrate on their Italian copy. Good point. Guess what, I am. I simply thought this may not be the right place to get my Italian copy evaluated. But perhaps I was wrong. Should I run it by you? ...which brings us to our final point: you doubt I am fluent in Italian. Actually, I am a native Italian and former tenure-track professor of Italian literature at an excellent private college in the US (ever been?). In all honesty, my Italian is far better than my English.


        And you wonder why you're not getting any work! I gave you some honest and well-meaning advice on the other thread (which is how you found me), and you give me this...

        Best of luck on all your future endeavors, my Indian food is here (yes, Indian food in Italy! )
        My apologies, I meant no disrespect. And by the way, I replied to this before you commented on the other thread. I don't know how business is done in Italy, I admit that. I didn't even know you're Italian. Your English is actually much better than most English writers I know.

        If you want the Italian copy to be unreadable, then by all means run it by me, I can't speak or read a lick of it :-p

        I'm not trying to be negative, I'll take another look at the copy and provide more positive notes.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532328].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author DKCopywriter
          It's possible that you missed my first post in this thread, but I'll repost it here because it was very relevant to the actual copy you posted:

          "As for your description, their prospect isn't Antico Setificio Fiorentino's prospect. Why should they care about how long they've been operating or who their customers are? That first part is selling ASF and not the agency's web design services.

          It is only at the second part that you start selling the agency's services when you should have been doing so from the get go.

          Yes, use some interesting facts about ASF, but don't start with that and end with the agency. Work it in there. Start and end with the agency."

          The beginning of the copy you wrote spoke about the agency's client more than it spoke about the agency. It began with facts about their client, which are definitely interesting, but aren't the most relevant points they need to get across. Instead, maybe something like:

          "A 200 year-old silk-weaving workshop in Florence came to us with a vision in mind for their website: a perfect fusion of their 18th century roots and modern technology. With their blueprints in mind, we set to work and created a website that connected with their roots so strongly, one could almost feel like they were there!"
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532339].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author DKCopywriter
            Also, if the newly designed website led to any rise in profits, I'd slip that in there somewhere.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532369].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author davidcane
            Originally Posted by DKCopywriter View Post

            It's possible that you missed my first post in this thread, but I'll repost it here because it was very relevant to the actual copy you posted:

            "As for your description, their prospect isn't Antico Setificio Fiorentino's prospect. Why should they care about how long they've been operating or who their customers are? That first part is selling ASF and not the agency's web design services.

            It is only at the second part that you start selling the agency's services when you should have been doing so from the get go.

            Yes, use some interesting facts about ASF, but don't start with that and end with the agency. Work it in there. Start and end with the agency."

            The beginning of the copy you wrote spoke about the agency's client more than it spoke about the agency. It began with facts about their client, which are definitely interesting, but aren't the most relevant points they need to get across. Instead, maybe something like:

            "A 200 year-old silk-weaving workshop in Florence came to us with a vision in mind for their website: a perfect fusion of their 18th century roots and modern technology. With their blueprints in mind, we set to work and created a website that connected with their roots so strongly, one could almost feel like they were there!"
            Ok, NOW you are on to something. And that bit, I must say, ain't too shabby. Thanks
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532411].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author splitTest
        Originally Posted by davidcane View Post

        The only copy I wrote, and the one I was asking y'all to evaluate, is the one I pasted in my original message, and which, for clarity's sake, I will paste again below.

        lol. Welcome to wf, david. That happens often here. People come in asking for critiques and get everything but...

        "You should scrap your whole business model and do it this way instead..." "Written copy will never work -- use a VSL..."

        I'm not taking a swipe at DK or anyone in this thread, but I see that a lot here.

        The good news is, this happens especially when the copy is reasonably decent. If your copy was absolutely horrible, you'd have multiple posters jumping in with both feet, telling you exactly what's so bad about it & how to improve it (or to hire a writer).

        Re: your copy, it's really not horrible, as compared to copy you'd typically find written for such purposes (imho). I like the tone & flow of it.

        Here's basic stuff I think would improve it (in no particular order):

        - Break it up into shorter sentences & shorter paragraphs. Some readers are turned off by a big block of copy like that..

        - What's an "exclusive customer"? I get what you're trying to say, but there's a better way to put it... I think it's awkward the way you have it there. (Products and services are sometimes described as "exclusive" that way... not usually customers... also, are they "customers" or the more highfalutin "clients" or "clientele"?)

        - That entire sentence is a little long & compound, so by the time you get to "back then," your reader might be lost on your meaning...

        - Silk-weaving should probably be hyphenated...

        - You can also tighten up the wording. "and today is producing" becomes "and today produces"... "that could elegantly convey" becomes "that elegantly conveys" "the most exclusive customers in the world' becomes "clients worldwide" or "designers worldwide"... Stuff like that...

        - Also "and pair it with all the best tools of today" is a little vague. I know what you mean, but it can be said with way more precision... In fact, a few items there are imprecise: "such a unique place", "engaging and rewarding"... Copy is best when it's vivid... I think you can improve this by replacing imprecise stuff with more granular, descriptive word choices & phrases...

        - Should "lure" be "allure"?

        ...So, my major advice would be go for shorter sentences and break the whole block up into (at least) two paragraphs... And get more granular with some of the phrases (better word choices are out there...)

        It's a good start, but of course, good writing is good editing...

        p.s. -- I just read benjamin's comments... & though I didn't review the copy on your website, Benjamin sounds right on point based on what I see of the copy you've posted here...
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532435].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author davidcane
    Ok, now we can have a conversation. And thanks for your honest compliments. I also apologize if I got riled up. I'm not one to bicker on forums but I am human and I can go off if someone touches an open nerve. In fact, I think I might write better when I'm pissed off.. I actually addressed your point in the post above, which I wrote before I saw your latest comment (guess we're playing cat and mouse) and as you can see, I did find that bit useful. Cheers!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532386].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Andrew Gould
    It's 2016.

    Forums have been around for a good few years now.

    People quoting entire posts only to add a sentence or two should have their fingers broken and their internet access removed.
    Signature

    Andrew Gould

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532430].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author davidcane
    Thanks Andrew, see, these to me are useful tidbits. I am completely ignorant when it comes to forum etiquette.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532438].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author davidcane
    Thanks splitTest, MUCH appreciated. That is the kind of feedback I was hoping for. Of course, to actually see it unfold line after line after line still puts a lil bruisin' on the ol' ego... But you are absolutely correct about the long, winding syntax. We Italians tend to have that problem. Our language is rooted in the elaborate, convolute phraseology we inherited from Latin (think Seneca, Cicero, you could go a full page without seeing a full stop...), and even though I try to be aware of this when I write in English, I do tend to meander on with my periods. I suppose Ben's criticism also apllied but, again, he was talking about stuff I hadn't written. (see, it's a widespread issue in these parts!) The only thing of mine here was the paragraph I pasted. And stop talking about MY website because, alas, I do not have one!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532450].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Benjamin Farthing
    I got my B.A. from William & Mary. One of the first schools to be called "Public Ivy."

    Okay, I misread your original post. I was wondering why you told us so much about the recent client, when you'd already linked to the website...

    Anyways.

    I agree with splitTest's comments on the copy. Pull back on the wordiness.

    I'd also suggest focusing more on what the agency did for that client. Prospects won't be that interested in the history of weaving, but they will be interested in how the web agency displayed it. Tell them about responsive design that keeps readers on the page longer, custom menus that lead to more orders, things like that (I'm not too familiar with web dev, but I think I'm getting my point across).

    And like someone else already said, any data you can include about how the website boosted business would work great here.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10532710].message }}

Trending Topics