What do you do when a client says no to your quote?

8 years ago

My question is, how do you respond when a client says no to your quote? At this stage of the game, I'm in no position to let clients walk away, however how do I negotiate without making it look like I wasn't charging too much to begin with?

Of course you are in a position to let clients walk away. You do have that option. It's important to know that. Once in a while when you do simply walk away, the client hurries to accept your offer.

The only way you can come down is if you can come up with a plausible reason for doing so.

Be mindful that once you negotiate with this client, you are usually stuck with lower rates for this client for years to come. Again, if that's not acceptable to you, it's better to walk away.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Marcia Yudkin

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wordsandthebees

8 years ago

Originally Posted by marciayudkin

Of course you are in a position to let clients walk away. You do have that option. It's important to know that. Once in a while when you do simply walk away, the client hurries to accept your offer.

The only way you can come down is if you can come up with a plausible reason for doing so.

Be mindful that once you negotiate with this client, you are usually stuck with lower rates for this client for years to come. Again, if that's not acceptable to you, it's better to walk away.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Marcia Yudkin

Thanks Marcia.
That was my struggle; I couldn't come up with a plausible reason for reducing my quote without it looking like I was being untrustworthy in the first place.

It makes for quite an unhealthy working relationship from the outset really doesn't it!

Thanks

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Cam Connor

8 years ago

If you're charging hourly, the only way you can come down is to lower your rate.

Better to offer a menu of services at a fixed price, that way if the quote's too high, you can take certain services off to lower the price for the client.

You can technically do this with hourly too, but you'd have to agree with the client on a fixed number of hours, so it's more of a hassle that way, because they'll probably be telling you how long it takes to do your job.

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wordsandthebees

8 years ago

Originally Posted by Cam Connor

If you're charging hourly, the only way you can come down is to lower your rate.

Better to offer a menu of services at a fixed price, that way if the quote's too high, you can take certain services off to lower the price for the client.

You can technically do this with hourly too, but you'd have to agree with the client on a fixed number of hours, so it's more of a hassle that way, because they'll probably be telling you how long it takes to do your job.

Thanks Cam,
That's a great idea.
I always do provide a range of options when I quote however in this instance, I guess the guy would have tried to reduce the quote no matter how much it was. It seems some people are just like that!!

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DABK

8 years ago

Why do they think it's too high? You told them, I'll charge you $50 but give you only $45-worth of value?

They think too high because of what they're used to paying. How are you different from what they used to get for what they're paying?

Did you make that clear to them?

It really comes down to two things:
you didn't properly present your value
they have no clue/are going to be not worth working with.

If they're the first, explain the value to them.
If they're the second, let them be.

Every client you say yes to takes up the time you have to get another client. So, say no to bad clients. Even if it feels like you can't afford to.

Originally Posted by wordsandthebees

I'm looking for some guidance from some of the more experienced copywriters among you.

I've been freelancing for a couple of years now but I've only just recently made the move into starting my own company.

As a Freelancer, your rate is your rate and people are aware of your ballpark figure before you even start a conversation with them. In the big wide world though it's obvious that copywriters all work differently charging different rates and by using different benchmarks.

I was recently asked to quote for a job which I happily did, but the client came back and declined it saying it was too high. I quote per hour but he was used to paying per word and for the task he wanted, this was a big difference.

I will continue to charge per hour for my work as I know what I can realistically achieve and I also believe this allows me to produce a higher quality of work.

My question is, how do you respond when a client says no to your quote? At this stage of the game, I'm in no position to let clients walk away, however how do I negotiate without making it look like I wasn't charging too much to begin with?

Thanks in advance for your replies, this forum has been a huge help to me while I've been setting up a new business!

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angiecolee

8 years ago

Originally Posted by DABK

Why do they think it's too high? You told them, I'll charge you $50 but give you only $45-worth of value?

They think too high because of what they're used to paying. How are you different from what they used to get for what they're paying?

Did you make that clear to them?

It really comes down to two things:
you didn't properly present your value
they have no clue/are going to be not worth working with.

If they're the first, explain the value to them.
If they're the second, let them be.

Every client you say yes to takes up the time you have to get another client. So, say no to bad clients. Even if it feels like you can't afford to.

1) Agree with Marcia - sometimes a no is a blessing in disguise. More often than not, a knee-jerk "that's too high" response is a blessing in disguise.

Do not, I repeat DO NOT fall into the trap of accepting a job out of "need".

Those kinds of super price sensitive clients can almost sense when you're stressed and desperate and they will milk every last drop out of you without caring what it does to you.

When you say no, you are not only establishing your value in the marketplace, not only protecting your headspace and your valuable time, you are also freeing up space and time for a GOOD client who DOES respect what you bring to the table and is comfortable paying market rates.

2) Everything DABK says above. Sounds like you may have quoted without building a case for value.

I advise you to put on Ed Gandia's High Income Business Writing podcast whenever you're in the car or out for a walk (no, I don't get anything out of mentioning him - he's just really good and has super incredible advice for the BUSINESS end of writing, and he does it all for free).

You'll learn about positioning, about persuasive quoting, about the nitty gritty details of the business side as well as the very real human/emotional side of this.

________

All told, I'd make one effort to build value (NOT LOWER PRICE) and see if it can be salvaged. If not, take it as a sign, learn a lesson about establishing authority and value, and apply it to the next prospect. Then get out there and hustle.

I've mentioned Rick Duris' advice to me a couple times before, but it's a life changer if you have the guts to do it - he told me to let go of all the shitty, low-paying clients regardless of how badly I needed the money. He told me to know that I was worth more and stop settling for less, and urged me to just do it - completely cold turkey. Fire them all.

I did and it was TERRIFYING. And also the best decision I ever made in my life. One of these days I'll stalk ol' Rick down and buy him a beer (or like a whole case of scotch).

From one formerly homeless copywriter to a struggling up-and-comer - it gets better. You can do this.

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TrickyDick

8 years ago

Originally Posted by angiecolee

I've mentioned Rick Duris' advice to me a couple times before, but it's a life changer if you have the guts to do it - he told me to let go of all the shitty, low-paying clients regardless of how badly I needed the money. He told me to know that I was worth more and stop settling for less, and urged me to just do it - completely cold turkey. Fire them all.

I did and it was TERRIFYING. And also the best decision I ever made in my life. One of these days I'll stalk ol' Rick down and buy him a beer (or like a whole case of scotch).

From one formerly homeless copywriter to a struggling up-and-comer - it gets better. You can do this.

What Angie said is true...... "Price sensitive" Clients will always be a pain in the posterior... Not only will they want you to lower your price.... Once you've lowered your price, they'll push you to do more work for the "lower" price.... It is a race to the bottom... with no winner.

One of the web sites I recommend (without ANY compensation) is Brennan Dunn's Double Your Freelancing. Of course he has paid products... But, getting on his email list for his "Free 9 Day Course" is worth the optin.

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wordsandthebees

8 years ago

Originally Posted by angiecolee

1) Agree with Marcia - sometimes a no is a blessing in disguise. More often than not, a knee-jerk "that's too high" response is a blessing in disguise.

Do not, I repeat DO NOT fall into the trap of accepting a job out of "need".

Those kinds of super price sensitive clients can almost sense when you're stressed and desperate and they will milk every last drop out of you without caring what it does to you.

When you say no, you are not only establishing your value in the marketplace, not only protecting your headspace and your valuable time, you are also freeing up space and time for a GOOD client who DOES respect what you bring to the table and is comfortable paying market rates.

2) Everything DABK says above. Sounds like you may have quoted without building a case for value.

I advise you to put on Ed Gandia's High Income Business Writing podcast whenever you're in the car or out for a walk (no, I don't get anything out of mentioning him - he's just really good and has super incredible advice for the BUSINESS end of writing, and he does it all for free).

You'll learn about positioning, about persuasive quoting, about the nitty gritty details of the business side as well as the very real human/emotional side of this.

________

All told, I'd make one effort to build value (NOT LOWER PRICE) and see if it can be salvaged. If not, take it as a sign, learn a lesson about establishing authority and value, and apply it to the next prospect. Then get out there and hustle.

I've mentioned Rick Duris' advice to me a couple times before, but it's a life changer if you have the guts to do it - he told me to let go of all the shitty, low-paying clients regardless of how badly I needed the money. He told me to know that I was worth more and stop settling for less, and urged me to just do it - completely cold turkey. Fire them all.

I did and it was TERRIFYING. And also the best decision I ever made in my life. One of these days I'll stalk ol' Rick down and buy him a beer (or like a whole case of scotch).

From one formerly homeless copywriter to a struggling up-and-comer - it gets better. You can do this.

I'm slowly learning that the no's are definitely blessings in disguise.
Thanks for the tip, I have bookmarked Ed Gandia and will have a listen over the weekend. Also THANK YOU for the encouragement Angie. It's a daunting but exciting time and every day is filled with new lessons. As you know!!

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neshaword

8 years ago

You're right now where I wanna be in the near future - totally independent. I'm still freelancing. Yet, to be quite honest, my hourly rate is just for the show. I've realized that clients feel much more comfortable and secure with the per word rate. Yes, it's more than unfair, you can't treat all of your writing tasks the same. However, there's this scary part for the clients, oh dear, I dunno how long it's gonna last, so every hourly rate is too high. How about some simple math for a change? Can you write a 500-word article in less than an hour? Here's a starting point. In addition, you're at the beginning of something new and exciting. So negotiate. It's something we have to do at the start of our freelancing career. When I'm desperate for a new client, I'm willing to negotiate. My word of advice. Prepare your next quote. Good Luck! Cheers! Nesha

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wordsandthebees

8 years ago

Originally Posted by neshaword

You're right now where I wanna be in the near future - totally independent. I'm still freelancing. Yet, to be quite honest, my hourly rate is just for the show. I've realized that clients feel much more comfortable and secure with the per word rate. Yes, it's more than unfair, you can't treat all of your writing tasks the same. However, there's this scary part for the clients, oh dear, I dunno how long it's gonna last, so every hourly rate is too high. How about some simple math for a change? Can you write a 500-word article in less than an hour? Here's a starting point. In addition, you're at the beginning of something new and exciting. So negotiate. It's something we have to do at the start of our freelancing career. When I'm desperate for a new client, I'm willing to negotiate. My word of advice. Prepare your next quote. Good Luck! Cheers! Nesha

Thanks Nesha.

Hang in there, this will all fall into place for you soon. This wasn't in my plan but a chain of events lead to the opportunity so I had to grab it quickly. Hence the reason I'm asking so many questions now, no time to prepare!!

Perhaps my sales pitch needs work and I will be working on that. I won't ever charge per word though as that's not the way for me to produce my best results.

It's great that we're all so different!

Thanks

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marciayudkin

8 years ago

When I'm desperate for a new client, I'm willing to negotiate.

Just so you know... When you are feeling desperate, the client usually feels this. And it sets up a lousy relationship, with lack of trust.

Your negotiation in that situation thus has multiple costs. You lose financially (see Angie's post on why that is) and you lose psychologically in your relationship with the client.

Marcia Yudkin

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angiecolee

8 years ago

Originally Posted by marciayudkin

Just so you know... When you are feeling desperate, the client usually feels this. And it sets up a lousy relationship, with lack of trust.

Your negotiation in that situation thus has multiple costs. You lose financially (see Angie's post on why that is) and you lose psychologically in your relationship with the client.

Marcia Yudkin

To build on what Marcia said, Nesha - you're not building on value.

If the client is asking you to write something in under an hour so they can save money, they don't understand that investing in your rate for your quality of work is likely to bring them a return.

Meaning they don't understand that investing X amount of dollars into your time equates to buying up a portion of all your expertise, creativity, and experience generating dollars - and using that to make Y dollars (known as ROI or return on investment).

Of course a good ROI depends on someone who has good business sense. I am gonna guess that you're either dealing with the clueless wannabe business owners who are watching every dollar, or you're dealing with ripoff artists and lowballers who are trying to squeeze out as many pennies as they can.

This of course does depend on you upping your quality if you want to up your rate as well.

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TrickyDick

8 years ago

One more thing.......

wordsandthebees wrote:

"I was recently asked to quote for a job which I happily did, but the client came back and declined it saying it was too high. I quote per hour but he was used to paying per word and for the task he wanted, this was a big difference."

It seems the Client is used to paying for Article Writers... and not Copywriters.... There is a massive difference between the two.... Have you clearly differentiated the two?

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wordsandthebees

8 years ago

Originally Posted by TrickyDick

One more thing.......

wordsandthebees wrote:

"I was recently asked to quote for a job which I happily did, but the client came back and declined it saying it was too high. I quote per hour but he was used to paying per word and for the task he wanted, this was a big difference."

It seems the Client is used to paying for Article Writers... and not Copywriters.... There is a massive difference between the two.... Have you clearly differentiated the two?

That's exactly right. It was a great lesson for me. No, I probably hadn't explained it clearly in advance; I am now much more upfront about the style of work that I provide and how I charge in the initial conversation.

Thanks

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Princess Balestra

8 years ago

Gotta figure how you were told what you were told an' how you were momentarily persuaded offa your dream cloud.

Were words used here?

An' how did they makeya feel?

Kinda special, kinda wanted, kinda valued?

I'll wager my next pizza on a NO x3.

Prolly their pitch says: we have a lower value of you an' your work than you do, an' rather than appeal to you on either an emotional or logical level, we are jus' gonna f*ck on your ass with petulant demands.

You ever haggled over pricea an iPod in the Apple store?

"Frankly, I only listen to music an' surf the 'net, so mosta the features on your product don't matter squatto to me — so why should I pay full price for shit I ain't never gonna use? Listen, if you want $399 for this pilea crap, then you gotta show me how alla this stuff gonna benefit me, or I will jus' take the music an' the apps I want an' to hell with the rest. Plus, I CANNOT MAKE IT LOOK HOW I WANNA! I got all these stoopid apps I don't want, an' I can't get 'em offa the damn thing or personalize shit. It is nuthin' I want, minus a whole buncha stuff I would love so much. Tellya, I was gonna offer mebbe $175 till I realized alla that, but ur srsly compromisin' me here on a varietya levels. So I will accept $50 fromya if you will permit me to take this offa your hands — $100 if you give consent for me to empty your frickin' store..."

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gingerninjas

8 years ago

Stick to your guns and don't negotiate. Fair enough if they are offering a project with tons of work you can offer a small discount when you are quoting due to the fact that they are providing a ton of work for you. I have found if people don't see the value in what you do, then they are not worth having as clients. I have spent way too much time in the past working for peanuts for clients that you describe and I am at a stage now (older and greyer) that I stand by my rate and wish my clients well if they decline this and look for a 'better deal'. You've dodged a bullet I say if they move on, as they probably aren't your ideal client anyway.

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RickDuris

8 years ago

One of the BIGGEST time-wasters for freelance copywriters is submitting quotes, estimates and proposals.

Your time is better spent mastering your craft.

I won't do quotes for anybody. Even when they ask.

Why? For precisely the reason you mentioned. It gives prospects the opportunity to say no.

(If anybody's going to say no, it'll be me. In the words of George W. Bush, "I am the decider.")

A project is fluid until it's locked down. Don't box yourself into a yes/no, either/or situation. Keep all the deal points on the table.

Then once you lock it down, once you have a verbal commitment, THEN send over your agreement.

P.S. Thanks, Angie.

I can remember Angie when she was struggling.

I think Angie will agree, it's a joy when you have only A and B-list clients. ONE of those is worth 100 of the "price is the only thing that matters" variety.

You decide. Not them.

This is not being arrogant, (if that's what you're thinking.) This is valuing, respecting, revering what you bring to the table.

They won't do it, unless and until you value, respect and revere yourself first.

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wordsandthebees

8 years ago

Originally Posted by RickDuris

One of the BIGGEST time-wasters for freelance copywriters is submitting quotes, estimates and proposals.

Your time is better spent mastering your craft.

I won't do quotes for anybody.

Why? For precisely the reason you mentioned. It gives prospects the opportunity to say no.

(If anybody's going to say no, it'll be me. In the words of George W. Bush, "I am the decider.")

A project is fluid until it's locked down. Don't box yourself into a yes/no, either/or situation. Keep all the deal points on the table.

Then once you lock it down, once you have a verbal commitment, THEN send over your agreement.

P.S. Thanks, Angie.

I can remember Angie when she was struggling.

I think Angie will agree, it's a joy when you have only A and B-list clients. ONE of those is worth 100 of the "price is the only thing that matters" variety.

You decide. Not them.

This is not being arrogant, (if that's what you're thinking.) This is valuing, respecting, revering what you bring to the table.

They won't do it, unless and until you value, respect and revere yourself first.

Hi Rick,
No that doesn't sound arrogant at all. In fact, I can't wait to be further along in my career so that I don't need to quote either!
How do you deal with new enquiries? Or do you solely work with existing clients now?

Thanks
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RickDuris

8 years ago

Originally Posted by wordsandthebees

Hi Rick,
No that doesn't sound arrogant at all. In fact, I can't wait to be further along in my career so that I don't need to quote either!
How do you deal with new enquiries? Or do you solely work with existing clients now?

With respect...

I don't know you but I do know this:

You're ready NOW. You just have to give yourself permission to take the next step in your career.

What I do is not hard. I'm not being difficult with prospects.

It's actually the opposite.

Twice this week I was told more or less that they liked my style.

Sure, it's a little bit awkward in the beginning when they realize who they're talking to. They didn't realize they've got a tiger by the tail.

The conversation is very enjoyable for everyone even if we don't come to terms.

You're ready now. You can do this and what you don't appreciate just yet is your best prospects and clients will adore you for being this way.

The rest of them? Who cares. Let somebody else have them.

P.S. I have opportunities almost every day. Most of my work is by referral.

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ThePromotionalGuy

8 years ago

Okay wordsandthebees,

Long before I owned a copy writing agency, I was a business owner in a completely different vocation. So my education and degree comes in the form of years of face to face, toe to toe, belly to belly, trial and error with customers and clients until one day I got it.

What was the "Got It"?

"This is my price take it or leave it!"

If they beggggedd me and pleeaadded with me, I thanked them for calling and hung up. Period!

I simply got fed up with poverty mentality time wasters. (gimme, gimme, gimme, it's not enough, it's not enough, it's not enough)

Here is a palm slapping forehead revelation you must know about your business position.

You are not...

(can I say it again?)

You are NOT...

(louder preacher)

YOU ARE NOT....

a freelancer
a marketer
a copy writer
a consultant
a whatever the hell one wants to call themselves

You are first and foremost and ONLY a Business Owner that offers...

Let that sink down into your cranium until it seeps out of every orifice of your body.

Never call yourself anything else. Get use to saying "I own..." or "I'm the owner of..." or "My company offers...."

I don't care if your are a business of one.

This is the mindset that will take you to a whole new level of business.

Remember when asked

Don't say "I'm a copy writer". Say "My company offers copy writing services"

This puts you in a position of authority. It has worked very well for me and the 6 different companies I've owned and operated in my 47+ years selling or providing a services.

As for quoting. Some people don't believe in it. Others do. That's your call.

If you take the quote route, know the whole scope of the project before price is discussed.

In the past I've done the

By the word
By the hour
By the job
By the seat of my pants

Now my clients know me and I simply require a deposit or invoice them. BUT this took time and building my own little following.

As for when are you ready. How about tomorrow when you get your butt out of bed.

Just do yourself a huge favor, if they don't Djent...shun the non-believers.

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gingerninjas 8 years ago

Originally Posted by ThePromotionalGuy

shun the non-believers.

This post is seriously the best thing I have laid my eyes on all day.

ThePromotionalGuy - this is pure gold. Thanks for sharing.
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wordsandthebees

8 years ago

Originally Posted by ThePromotionalGuy

Okay wordsandthebees,

As for when are you ready. How about tomorrow when you get your butt out of bed.

Just do yourself a huge favor, if they don't Djent...shun the non-believers.

Thank you for this post. What a great way to look at things.

You are quite right; I don't do anything...'my business offers...' I like it.

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate you taking the time to share the benefit of your experience.

Thanks

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Raydal

8 years ago

I don't play price games with my clients. Meaning, I don't give a quote
with the intention of lower that price if the client complains. The first
quote is my fair quote. If I drop after you complain then you are in the
right to ask, "Why I didn't give you that quote in the first place?"

-Ray Edwards

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wordsandthebees

8 years ago

Thanks everyone for your responses. This is a great thread to see how everyone else is doing it.
I think the consensus is to stay firm on your initial quote as those 'negotiators' are always going to be a pain to work with. Perhaps in future, if anyone asks me to negotiate my rate I should take that as a warning and provide them with a higher quote

Thanks

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AlanCarr

8 years ago

I just opened this forum in order to give a tire-kicker the link, noticed this thread and scrolled straight to the bottom...

Anyone asking for an hourly or per word rate is not looking for a copywriter, or doesn't really understand what a copywriter is.

Be polite about it but move on.

AC

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wordsandthebees

8 years ago

Originally Posted by AlanCarr

I just opened this forum in order to give a tire-kicker the link, noticed this thread and scrolled straight to the bottom...

Anyone asking for an hourly or per word rate is not looking for a copywriter, or doesn't really understand what a copywriter is.

Be polite about it but move on.

AC

Thanks Alan.
Great advice.
At this stage in my career, while I build up a client base, I like to be able to quantify my charges so I'm happy to quote at an hourly rate. I have a fairly accurate idea of what I can achieve per hour and if a job goes over that time significantly I am looking at that as a learning curve for the next time.

Eventually, I will be at the point where my work is charged per piece but while I'm still learning about the business side of things, I'd rather be able to use something solid for those less knowledgeable in the industry.

These first 12 months are all about learning what works for me and what doesn't. Every day I'm learning, trust me!!

Thanks
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angiecolee

8 years ago

Originally Posted by wordsandthebees

Thanks Alan.
Great advice.
At this stage in my career, while I build up a client base, I like to be able to quantify my charges so I'm happy to quote at an hourly rate. I have a fairly accurate idea of what I can achieve per hour and if a job goes over that time significantly I am looking at that as a learning curve for the next time.

Eventually, I will be at the point where my work is charged per piece but while I'm still learning about the business side of things, I'd rather be able to use something solid for those less knowledgeable in the industry.

These first 12 months are all about learning what works for me and what doesn't. Every day I'm learning, trust me!!

So long as you quote hourly, more often than not you're going to have clock watchers trying to question whether it REALLY takes you THAT MUCH time to do that ONE MEASLY landing page. Because my neighbor's cousin's wife's dog's best friend took a writing class and says he can do it in 30 minutes.

BUILD VALUE.

The best way to do that is reframe what your fee costs in terms of what the client is hoping to earn. And/or reminding them of additional consideration/effort that goes into your work. Not just a word dump. Pro level.

That is valuable.

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yukon

Banned 8 years ago

Originally Posted by wordsandthebees

I quote per hour but he was used to paying per word and for the task he wanted, this was a big difference.

So divide your hourly rate by your words per minute. Same money.

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Junaid khawaja

8 years ago

hi, I have struggled with this too. But have finally come into terms with it. Whenever my quote gets rejected I talk to myself and say "This is because I am not worth it. I am not yet valuable enough that clients will run after me to craft for them a single damn headline". This entice a new motivation in me. Motivation to work even harder and improve myself to a level where I attract money, not the oppossite. However, as far as negotiations go, I have found Daniel D plaza advises to be very useful. On the other hand, the copywriting Godess Joanna wiebe is strictky against negotiating. "Stick with your quoted price" She says.

Thanks

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