Tell me warriors... Am I an innovator? Or an idiot?

13 replies
Sounds like a strange thread topic, I know, but hear me out.

I've spent the last two years of my professional copywriting career trying to perfect short copy. Not short copy as in squeeze pages, short emails, google ads, etc.

Short copy as in what another copywriter would take 20 pages to sell, I try to do it in 10 or less. Not just to make it short, but to write a letter that is only as long as it really NEEDS to be.

I've had some spectacular successes... Some good converting letters... And yes, some complete flops. I can't sit here and tell you that every piece I've ever written has done amazingly, because every copywriter knows that simply isn't possible. In fact, my biggest flop was for one of the biggest warriors here - BigMike. I wrote copy for him that didn't get one solitary sale out of a couple hundred visitors. That stung...

But my successes have been pretty big. Off of 3 simple pages of copy, I've produced over $1400 in 24 hours from just a few hundred visitors. That client was in profit in less than 48 hours, and was quite happy about it.

But then, I'm having a problem. You see, after spending all of that time trying to perfect my short copy, I've come across a stumbling block. I have a client who doesn't think it will convert.

I'm going to edit it again for him, doing my best to make sure it will pull in a great response, but a lot of the reason I believe he doesn't think it will work is... The length.

And, he feels I overpriced the project because of it's length.

(I'm not bashing, this is just a public opinion poll because I would like to know what others think - good business sense to see what my potential clients think.)

So here is my question to you, warriors... After spending all of that time and energy perfecting short copy that is supposed to pull just as well as long copy, have I wasted my time? In your eyes, does short copy still hold less value, even if it converts just as well? Should I give up on my short-copy mission, and go back to writing long, hypey letters because that is what my clients expect?

Or should I stick with it, and hope that someday my techniques will hold just as much value as the time-tested 40-page full of fluff and filler letters that you see everywhere else?

Once again, not bashing, just looking for opinions.

Thanks guys!

- Cherilyn
#idiot #innovator #warriors
  • Profile picture of the author MarketingMagician
    Hi Cherilyn,

    I think we should all try to remove long and short copy out of the question.

    After you know what the market wants- give it to them.

    Some people might write longer copy because thats there style or maybe they use other secret ingredients that might help the letter sell better.

    I don't see there is any right or wrong answer to this question...

    As long as your message can covey- "buy now" followed by that action- I don't see why it matters how long the copy is.

    1 page or 25 pages.
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    • Profile picture of the author ildarius
      An innovator
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    • Magician - That's my stance on it, at least. Good to see someone who agrees.

      - Cherilyn
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      Take your product from idea to profit in less than 90 days! Work with me to develop and implement a step-by-step plan for success!
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  • Profile picture of the author MaskedMarketer
    Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester View Post

    In your eyes, does short copy still hold less value, even if it converts just as well?
    If you write two letters and both convert the same, the value is still the same.

    A sale letter is measured by results and ROI- and should not be by length.

    At least thats what I care about. The only thing your clients should care about is results and/or ROI. Thats why people buy things, right?
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  • Profile picture of the author MontelloMarketing
    Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester View Post

    So here is my question to you, warriors... After spending all of that time and energy perfecting short copy that is supposed to pull just as well as long copy, have I wasted my time?
    Only if it doesn't pull as well. If it does... or if you truly believe it does, put your time where your beliefs are. Tell your client to put up your short copy. then you'll write a longer version and test the 2.

    Or should I stick with it, and hope that someday my techniques will hold just as much value as the time-tested 40-page full of fluff and filler letters that you see everywhere else?
    If you think the alternative to short copy is 40 pages of fluff and filler, then sister... you're just not reading the right letters. I've seen 7 pages of fluff and filler in an 8 page letter and 40 page letters with NO filler or fluff.

    There's no secret here. Just write well. And when you've sufficiently tapped into the emotional and intellectual sides of your prospects, guess what? You're done. If that's 10 pages, fine. 110 okay.
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    • Vin - That's part of the problem for me. I can write 8 pages with no fluff, no filler. When I write 40 pages, most of the time I have to add fluff and filler to get it to that length. That's why I tell my clients "It will be as long as it needs to be" - and usually ends up being on the shorter side, unless I'm selling some high-priced home study course. But the majority of the letters I write are for products under $100, most even under $50, and mostly in the internet marketing niche. These people don't need a lot of explanation and coaching - they need to know...

      A) Why I'm trying to get their attention (aka the problem)

      B) What I have to offer (get their interest)

      C) Why it is so great (build desire)

      D) What they have to do to get it (get them to take action)

      and E) Why they don't need to worry (take care of their objections both along the way, and after the test-closing.)

      That's it. And I seem to be able to do that pretty well in under 10-15 pages, almost every time. But I'm starting to see that copy undervalued because "it's only a couple of pages, it shouldn't take that long..."

      Perhaps I don't need to adjust my writing style, I just need to adjust the type of clients I work with. Someone who is understanding of how much work goes into copy, how much knowledge and talent it takes to actually do it properly, and how the length of a project does NOT dictate it's conversion rate. I've seen 50 page letters bomb and 5 page letters generate $10k+

      Any more thoughts anyone?

      - Cherilyn
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      Take your product from idea to profit in less than 90 days! Work with me to develop and implement a step-by-step plan for success!
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      • Profile picture of the author Todd Lamb
        I can tell you that I am a fan of clear concise, succinct copy. When properly written it should convey the same message and ultimately convert the same if the reservations of the prospect have been addressed.

        My .02 cents

        Todd
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      • Profile picture of the author Kyle Tully
        Hey Cherilyn

        I gotta say I'm not really sure what the fuss is.

        You price your copy on the value it provides. If what you write converts then that's all that matters. Anyone complaining that a letter is not "long enough" doesn't get it and shouldn't be a client.

        And if they have become clients then you should be looking at your own marketing and asking "how can I weed these people out earlier in the process."

        If your USP is based around writing short to-the-point copy then you should be talking about that in all your marketing and only attract people that want that type of copy.

        Coat of arms... one legged golfer... in fact 80% of Carlton's letters... are all under 12 pages. It's never been about length, but selling. If you've done your selling then you're done.

        Cheers
        Kyle
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  • Profile picture of the author nemock
    I don't think long vs short makes much of a difference...as long as you're getting results. Online long vs short makes even less of a difference than with direct mail...again results...

    On one CD I have with Dan Kennedy, I think he sums it up nicely: "This debate has literally been raging since the early 1800s and will continue will into the next century too."

    Dave
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    • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
      Actually there's nothing new about the approach.

      Many of the most successful newspaper and magazine display ads had to be edited heavily to get them to fit inside the required space.

      Having said that online you're not limited by space so it's not as huge an issue.

      But I would think trying to say more clearly with less words is definitely something most copywriters should strive for.

      Right after getting the maximum sales conversions possible.

      Kindest regards,
      Andrew Cavanagh
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      • Profile picture of the author zapseo
        I don't set out to write long letters.

        They just seemed to turn out that way.

        That is, by the time I get through saying everything I want to say about the product.

        Which is based upon the extensive research I do.

        On my last sales letter -- I pulled out 2 very important aspects of his product that he wasn't even mentioning -- that added tremendous value to the user.

        Now, we did use a lot of screenshots.

        The letter ended up being 40 screens long. (Yikes!)

        I would just as soon as written less if I thought I could have gotten everything in, LOL.

        Live JoyFully!

        Judy
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        • Profile picture of the author Collette
          Seems like you're wasting time and energy on this. Why not have the client run your short version and a longer format to A/B test? Get it out there and see if it flies.

          Some copy pulls better as short copy; some pulls better long. 40 well-written pages are riveting information to the right audience. 350 fluff-filled words will bore the wrong audience to tears.

          It's about results.
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          • Profile picture of the author Collette
            Also sounds like you need to educate your clients before you agree to write for them. Or get clients who are a little more knowledgable about the selling process.
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