What The #@&* Do "I" Know About Copywriting?

22 replies
I actually find this rather amusing.

Here I am, hanging out with some of the most successful and talented
copywriters on the Internet (you guys rock!) and I'm wondering to myself...

"What the #@&* am I doing here?"

I mean I've never written one line of copy for payment and my very first
sales letter had a freaking STOP sign at the top of the page.

Ironically...that sales letter...my first one EVER...sold over 200 copies a
month for almost a year.

And the whole thing was like in Times New Roman font with a bizarre mix
of bolds and underlines and italics and...OMG...it was an UGLY mess.

I wish I still had an old copy of it to show you guys.

You'd get such a laugh.

Did I mention it was UGLY AS SIN?

200 Copies a month worth of ugly sin.

Looking back upon it, I wonder what it was about it that made it so
successful.

Was it the product? (It was a great product targeting home business moms
who just wanted to do something where they'd get paid for their work)

It was essentially about how to get into the freelancing biz and showed
exactly how I did it.

So maybe that had something to do with it.

Was it my no nonsense way of telling people that there was work involved
but it was work that would pay off?

Maybe. After all...people are sick and tired of doing sh*t and getting
nothing in return.

I know it wasn't Clickbank's 8 week guarantee, that's for sure.

Was it the cheap price?

At the time, it was only $19.95, which is more a regular retail store
price than these crazy IM prices of $27, $37, $47 and so on that we
see all the time. So I was probably attracting a crowd that was more
comfortable with the offer.

Was it my very down to earth closing? I wish I could remember it, but it
was nothing you'd put on a sales page if you actually wanted to make
sales. It was something to the effect of, "Look, I can't make you any
promises. So many people are looking for that magic push button solution
that sadly doesn't exist." And so on. In other words, I was TOTALLY honest
about the whole thing.

Was it all the bonuses?

Oh Lord, I know they had to help...8 of them and stuff that TODAY, you'd
pay hundreds for. I put a lot of work into them.

Come to think of it...it really was the whole package.

And without one piece of copywriting training.

In fact, up until that day when I wrote this sales letter, the only writing
I had done was my actual freelancing work and the few ads I wrote for
affiliate products I was selling.

I was NO copywriter.

But the sales letter worked.

Why?

In short...because I was honest.

I had an appealing offer at a good price and was honest and up front
about what it would do for them.

By the way, without realizing it at the time, the sales letter was VERY long
for a $19.95 product. In fact, it was 40 pages long.

I didn't know what long copy was when I wrote it.

I just wrote from my heart and figured, "Screw it...Let the chips fall where
they may."

Today, I've actually learned how to say a lot less and still get the message
across.

But that only came with time and experience.

Training?

I had a great teacher (years after that page) and read a great book given
to me by Paul Myers.

But oddly, after all that training, I realized that the most important things,
at least to me, I had all along.

A solid product.
A solid offer.
Honesty.

IMO, if you have those 3 things you don't have to be an expert copywriter
to make sales.

At least that has been my experience.

So, what the #@&* do I know about copywriting?

Not really a hell of a lot.

Oddly, so far, it hasn't really mattered much.
##@and #copywriting
  • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
    Steven,

    Honesty is a very effective persuasion trigger. (It's one of Joe Sugarman's famous 30 triggers.)

    Believability + Irresistible Offer in a sales letter is a great combination.

    Check out www.archive.org. You might be able to find your sales letter there.

    Alex
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  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    You have certain advantages when writing copy for your
    own stuff. I had some very successful early copy I wrote
    that broke A LOT of rules I now try to abide by when I
    write. But people told me it was honest - sincere, and
    communicated. I didn't know much about "how to sell
    in print", but I was able to empathize with my readers
    and answer the questions that came up in their minds
    well enough that many took the next step in the buying
    process.

    In writing for clients however you won't get many jobs
    if your work doesn't show a certain amount of polish
    and attention to the things people are accustomed to
    seeing in sales letters.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye View Post

      You have certain advantages when writing copy for your
      own stuff. I had some very successful early copy I wrote
      that broke A LOT of rules I now try to abide by when I
      write. But people told me it was honest - sincere, and
      communicated. I didn't know much about "how to sell
      in print", but I was able to empathize with my readers
      and answer the questions that came up in their minds
      well enough that many took the next step in the buying
      process.

      In writing for clients however you won't get many jobs
      if your work doesn't show a certain amount of polish
      and attention to the things people are accustomed to
      seeing in sales letters.

      Yeah, you're probably right.

      Like I said...what the #@&* do I know about writing salescopy?
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  • Profile picture of the author edmltw
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


    A solid product.
    A solid offer.
    Honesty.

    IMO, if you have those 3 things you don't have to be an expert copywriter
    to make sales.

    [/COLOR][/COLOR]
    And those 3 "things" are just some basic guidelines of copywriting.

    you need not to be an expert copywriter to sell, but if you want to have a higher conversion rate, that's where the advanced copywriting skills comes into play.

    Ed
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by edmltw View Post

      And those 3 "things" are just some basic guidelines of copywriting.

      you need not to be an expert copywriter to sell, but if you want to have a higher conversion rate, that's where the advanced copywriting skills comes into play.

      Ed
      My conversion rate for that sales page was like 10%.

      I didn't get more than 2,000 unique visitors a month back then.

      But like Loren said, it's different when writing for your own product.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
        Steven,

        Your story is a good example of the order of importance for producing an info-product winner.

        1. The right targeted prospects being sent to a sales letter
        2. A great compelling offer being made to those prospects. Part of that offer is having a product that they want.
        3. The sales letter that sells the product and the benefits of owning it.

        Get the first 2 right and you have a profitable info-product. Nail all three and you could have a mega-hit on your hands.

        The thing is, if you have a product of your own that you used less than ideal sales copy to try to sell it, you know that going into it and accept the outcome as it happens. Maybe you were pressed for time. Maybe you just wanted to get the darn thing launched after weeks or months in the works.

        When it's your own info-product, you may choose to go back and rework part of the sales letter when time permits or if it's justified. You can also just as easily never touch the sales letter again.

        As a professional copywriter, it's a completely different game.

        Deliver a sub-par sales letter for a client and you could cause your client to lose a lot of money on traffic generation (or their affilates)... publicly rip you for a "bad" sales letter... choose to never hire you again as a copywriter and tell others to do the same. It could really damage your professional reputation.

        That's why the well-known copywriters stay well-known. They bust their a$$ to deliver high-quality copy consistently. Could be a matter of professional pride but it's just as likely that they don't want their professional reputation dented by delivering a half-baked sales letter... especially if they spent years working to get to where they are now.

        It's also one of the reasons why the well-known copywriters are always working on honing their skills in copywriting, marketing (offline and online), and sales.

        If you have any reservations about your abilities, then perhaps it would be wise to take a step back and objectively analyze where you feel you need to get stronger and then work on doing exactly that.

        Take care,

        Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

          Steven,

          Your story is a good example of the order of importance for producing an info-product winner.

          1. The right targeted prospects being sent to a sales letter
          2. A great compelling offer being made to those prospects. Part of that offer is having a product that they want.
          3. The sales letter that sells the product and the benefits of owning it.

          Get the first 2 right and you have a profitable info-product. Nail all three and you could have a mega-hit on your hands.

          The thing is, if you have a product of your own that you used less than ideal sales copy to try to sell it, you know that going into it and accept the outcome as it happens. Maybe you were pressed for time. Maybe you just wanted to get the darn thing launched after weeks or months in the works.

          When it's your own info-product, you may choose to go back and rework part of the sales letter when time permits or if it's justified. You can also just as easily never touch the sales letter again.

          As a professional copywriter, it's a completely different game.

          Deliver a sub-par sales letter for a client and you could cause your client to lose a lot of money on traffic generation (or their affilates)... publicly rip you for a "bad" sales letter... choose to never hire you again as a copywriter and tell others to do the same. It could really damage your professional reputation.

          That's why the well-known copywriters stay well-known. They bust their a$$ to deliver high-quality copy consistently. Could be a matter of professional pride but it's just as likely that they don't want their professional reputation dented by delivering a half-baked sales letter... especially if they spent years working to get to where they are now.

          It's also one of the reasons why the well-known copywriters are always working on honing their skills in copywriting, marketing (offline and online), and sales.

          If you have any reservations about your abilities, then perhaps it would be wise to take a step back and objectively analyze where you feel you need to get stronger and then work on doing exactly that.

          Take care,

          Mike

          Spot on Mike. I'm well aware it's a different game. And not only that,
          sometimes, as a copywriter for hire, you're presented with a less than
          stellar product and offer.

          Then what?

          It's great when you have everything under your control, but when a
          client hands you something that is sub par (not all product creators are
          great) that's when you have to either perform some magic or not take
          the job.

          Personally, I will not take the job.

          Which is why I am glad that I always have my marketing as my main
          bread winner.

          If I find the ideal client, with the ideal product, I'll take the job.

          Otherwise, I don't need the money.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Spot on Mike. I'm well aware it's a different game. And not only that,
            sometimes, as a copywriter for hire, you're presented with a less than
            stellar product and offer.

            Then what?

            It's great when you have everything under your control, but when a
            client hands you something that is sub par (not all product creators are
            great) that's when you have to either perform some magic or not take
            the job.

            Personally, I will not take the job.
            It depends on how off the mark the product or offer might be. If they are open to my suggestions on what changes to make, then I'll take the job. If they aren't or it's a bad product, then I turn it down and tell them why.

            I've gotten a few flaming replies but most people thank me for telling why I think it's a bad product before they burn their hard-earned money trying to market a potential train wreck.

            I think that's where your marketing savvy can be an asset to your clients when you do decide to accept any of them. A client can't attach a price tag to the value of having you steer them around the landmines in the marketing field that could wipe out their chances of success early on.

            But yes, definitely pick the projects you think have the best chances of success to work with. That's what all of the top pros like Makepeace, Carlton, Fortin, etc. do routinely.

            Take care,

            Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    I started out in this business not knowing the rules so I wasn't aware I was breaking them. I'm a content writer who enjoys writing ad copy when the need arises and have had a certain measure of success at it. I think if I try too hard to figure it out, I screw it up. So I just keep doing what I've been doing....
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  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    Steven, if you think all you need is a good product, a good offer and honesty, in order to write great copy for a Client, I submit you will be tremendously disappointed, confused and frustrated with your career shift.

    Waiting for Clients to hand to you on a silver platter with all of the above in place, for them to meet your criteria 100% (or even 25%), will be like waiting for the second coming.

    In addition, your competition will be eating YOUR lunch in the meantime.

    As a copywriter, you NEED to be able to turn chicken **** into chicken salad.

    THAT'S YOUR JOB.

    If you're strong, your marketing skills solid... with your coaching and consultation... your Clients will redo/rethink their marketing, branding, product, fulfillment and customer service in a heartbeat.

    If you're weak-kneed and just "go with the flow" (thinking you're "JUST a copywriter and what the heck do I know") your results WILL be compromised. And so will your bank account. And the second sales slacken (which they will), your copy will be accused of failing. When in fact, the cause could be something entirely different.

    For instance, let's say you had the opportunity to turn around a solid product with substantial sales in a very competitve niche, but there's only one small fly in the oitment:

    It has (phenomenal) 64% return rate.

    Would you, as a copywriter, take it on as a challenge?

    My guess is probably not. It wouldn't meet your criteria.

    I conceed, most wouldn't. They'd say the current sales copy over-promised or the product sucked and that's why the promotion/business is failing.

    By the way, I took on this particular challenge and eliminated refunds to only .08% of sales.

    Wouldn't you like to know how?

    While I can't share with you the specifics, I will give you the basic strategy.

    First, I used a LONG 3-page, personally-written by the president of the company, "stick" letter. With each order shipped, we put it in a manilla envelope and in big red lettering on the outside we said "From the President: To get biggest benefit out of your relationship with us, READ THIS FIRST."

    Then we implemented a sequence of autoresponder "stick" emails which primed the customer to know what to expect. So when they received the package, they knew exactly what to do and they were HAPPY.

    Result?

    I didn't have to touch their sales letter or website. They were working. What we had to do was get their existing sales to STICK.

    While admittedly, I didn't initially "double their sales," But I did more than double their profits--in less than a month. (Do you have any idea what that means for someone who is paid on performance?)

    You may not see any of this as copywriting, but I do. Anybody who has had to deal with refunds and upset customers and all such things knows the only solution is... WORDS.

    Many times people think copywriting is all about pursuading, seducing, romancing, influencing people to INITIALLY buy.

    But occassionally, your skills can be used for all sorts of opportunities with the right marketing assets. It's up to you, NOT the Client, to see them and exploit the opportunity for all it's worth.

    Your Clients will adore you for it.

    For instance, did you know you can double a company's revenues by implementing a customer reactivation program? For a Client with a list that hasn't been abused, it is extremely doable. But not 1 in 10 companies have a formal or informal reactivation program.

    If you're a copywriter, can you smell the opportunity?

    One letter, even a simple 2-page letter, can create thousands, ten of thousands of dollars in sales--immediately. And as a copywriter, you'll be compensated handsomely for your efforts.

    Steven, my point is not to chastise you and I hope you don't take this post this way. My point was offer a little experiential insight and hope you see the value and more importantly, the opportunity.

    Bottomline: You want projects that ON THE OUTSIDE look like they SUCK BIG TIME. You want losers. Dogs. Diamonds in the rough. You WANT the problem children. Do NOT put your blinders on prematurely, else you'll be passing up all sorts of opportunity as a copywriter.

    Anybody who's aware of Gary Halbert's Client-getting strategy, it was not about hitting the perfect pitch out of the park. It was the number of times AT BAT.

    - Rick Duris
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    • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
      Rick, you're making sense all over the place. Glad to have you around.

      As I experience it... the real kick I get out of copywriting is not from being gifted a perfect product, offer, and a file overflowing with taut well written testimonials.

      It's from turning rank lemons into sweet lemonade.

      That's the challenge. That's the thrill up the inside leg. And luckily, that's what marketers often hand you.
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      • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
        Thank you very much, Ross. Being new to this forum, I'm grateful to be acknowledged.

        In poker, they call it playing the cards you're dealt with. In snooker, it's playing the balls where they lay.

        When you take on a project, it's up to YOU and you alone to turn that business or sales letter or product into a performer. Your Client, whether you realize it or not, is demanding that of you.

        My best advice is do not count on anybody, plan on uncertainty, work your guts out and create your own luck.

        - Rick Duris
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan View Post

          You're lucky Rick. Allegedly newbies are receiving a beat-down from
          from some of the veteran copywriters.

          Please tell what magic ointment you use to avoid this rash of
          verbal assaults.
          Maybe because I'm not exactly a newbie.

          Rick, solid advice...thanks.

          Makes me happy I don't need to do this for a living.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ross Bowring
          Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan View Post

          You're lucky Rick. Allegedly newbies are receiving a beat-down from
          from some of the veteran copywriters.

          Please tell what magic ointment you use to avoid this rash of
          verbal assaults.
          Rick's posts are laced with the sweet scent of verisimilitude. Or... expressed another way... you can tell he ain't full of crap.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
          Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan View Post

          You're lucky Rick. Allegedly newbies are receiving a beat-down from
          from some of the veteran copywriters.

          Please tell what magic ointment you use to avoid this rash of
          verbal assaults.
          Probably two reasons.

          First, Rick has shown in multiple threads that he is very strong at marketing and copywriting.

          Second, I mentioned in another thread that I've had the pleasure of speaking with Rick on the phone and that he's the real deal. So I guess it helps when one of the "veteran" copywriters of the WF gives you props.

          Of course, I could be wrong... that's just my opinion.

          Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
          Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan View Post

          Allegedly newbies are receiving a beat-down from some of the veteran copywriters.

          Please tell what magic ointment you use to avoid this rash of
          verbal assaults.
          A conspicuous absence of trolling/whining?

          An obvious love for and command of our craft?

          A friendly, engaging and professional demeanor?

          Nah... He's just lucky while others are hapless (helpless?) victims
          of an infamously nefarious and vicious "WF Copywriters Cabal".

          Quite frankly, I'm just not seeing the problems that others appear to...
          but I'm gladly deferring to wiser hands on the Mod Wheel.

          I don't like/condone/participate in personal attacks or unnecessary
          nastiness... but sometimes an unsweetened spoonful of reality is
          just what the doctor ordered for a newb to really "get it".

          Having trained hundreds of salespeople, a gentle touch rarely embeds
          the knowledge the way a swift boot in the ass does.

          We aren't doing ANYONE a service by tip-toeing around fragile egos in
          the pursuit of discussing/sharing what WORKS and what DOESN'T.

          But we aren't doing anyone a service by being holier than thou either.

          Civility and mutual respect are to be expected. Suffering foolish advice
          and nonsensical warblings.... not so much. At least if we truly want this
          section of the WF to be as useful as it can be.

          That's my take on it, anyway.

          Best,

          Brian
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Brian is absolutely right. We do nobody any good by sugarcoating the
            truth. I've been known to be pretty blunt with people as well when it
            comes to marketing.

            I appreciate all the comments that have been made, and yes, I understand
            that not everybody is going to have a pristine product with glowing
            testimonials to hand me on a silver platter. Hell, as a product creator
            and affiliate marketer, I see the crap that's out there with the super polished
            sales pages...and it's not pretty.

            Fortunately, as I said, this isn't something I have to do in order to pay the
            bills but something I want to do...big difference. So I can afford to pick and
            choose who I write for.

            And if that means I write for nobody, that's good too.

            I've got plenty of other things to keep me busy and profitable.
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  • Profile picture of the author Laura B
    The straightforward honesty you speak of is the approach I've been taking with my first info product. I have no official copywriting training either but am a decent writer, so I decided to just lay out the facts, sparing the hype.

    In fact, I specifically refused to read up on "how to write a sales letter" or any such copywriting instruction. Foolish? Maybe. But I figured simple, old-fashioned honesty would very likely have a better effect than all the slick sales talk that everyone else tosses around.

    I wrote my page in a way that I would respond to, and it's the only way I'm willing to go. I'm still in the early stages of my product promotion, so I'm glad to know it has worked well for you - it gives me hope!
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  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    Hi Paul,

    Unfortunately, there is no magic ointment. For me personally, it's just called "sucking it up" and taking the coaching.

    Whether a rookie or a veteran delivers it, when someone NAILS the truth, it's pretty much irrefutable.

    - Rick Duris
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