How To Know Who My Customer Is

Hi Randall,

1. Take a stab at the copy. Do the research. Take your best shot. Then write the piece and post it up.

2. I suspect that you are probably new at Internet Marketing. The very best way is to talk or chat with your prospects. You can get a free script and install it on your page. Make it obvious and encouraging. I use LivePerson, but there are others.

And then when someone does ask to chat, you nurturously encourage them to have a phone conversation with you. And then you can pick their brain and get your questions answered.

Your knowledge of your market will grow over time quickly, you'll establish trust and make a lot of friends.

- Rick Duris

Hi Randall,

It's half research and half intuition.

Hanging around forums... talking to customers... and all that sort of stuff will help.

But people rarely tell you the REAL reason they're doing things.

You'll get their surface-level rationalizations... but not the real meat you need to hit on in order to make the sale.

That's not to say market research isn't valuable... just that you really need to go beyond it to deliver a winning sales piece.

So yeah... check out competitor's ads... forums... talk to people... attend meetings... work on doing the thing in question yourself...

...but don't forget that it's only part of the picture.

-Dan

Randall,

I've written copy for thousands of clients over the last couple of years and I'm constantly booked solid so I've had to come up with ways to research markets accurately without spending a ton of times in market forums. My clients also won't like me guessing at market desires.

The fastest and most accurate way to do market research is to setup a survey that offers a freebie for responding. I love the three question, fill in the blank, type of survey so you get actual responses from people in the market. This is vital to learn market terminology, how questions are worded, etc.

You can set up a basic survey for free using survey monkey. Drive Adwords traffic to a short landing page that shows them the freebie and tells them to click the link to respond and collect it. I sometimes spend $100 sending traffic to the page until the responses provide enough "copy food" for me to use as jumping points for a sales letter.

Is this the cheapest route? Nope, but it is the fastest and most accurate.

Good luck buddy,
Chris Elliott

Randall,

First off, don't psyche yourself out too much. You DO have to know the market, that's a fact. It doesn't have to be difficult, though. Definitely check out your competitors and who they're writing to. Pay attention to their "voice". Are you writing for a product you've created, or are you writing for somebody else?

When you're writing for somebody else, pick their brain until you can pick no more. Set up a time to do a full intake with them and have a list of questions in front of you, and take notes on the answers. Nobody's going to get mad at you for asking questions. If anything, they're going to be grateful that you're listening to them. They know the market. They're essentially hiring you to be a liaison between their market and their product.

when starting you should really know who your customers/clients are. your product is a 1/4 of the battle but truly knowing your customer/clients is worth more then a pound of gold. It could mean the difference of a one off customer or a client who is worth hundreds of thousands to you all because you actually knew who they were. Hopefully that all makes sense.

Chris,

Market research is great... but it never tells the whole story.

Every decent copywriter I've ever known has had to look BEYOND what their customers say.

Heck... sometimes people out and out lie about what they really want (as any software developer knows very well).

Fast? Yes. Accurate? Not so much.

I'm not saying it's not a useful tool... because it is.

But you and I both know that figuring out a market's deepest, darkest desires just isn't that easy.

I'm yet to find a single copywriter who has hit the nail on the head every single time. Carlton... Halbert... Montello... they've all misread the market...

...and that's after doing a ton of research.

Market research only tells you what the market SAY they want... not what they really do.

Sometimes they're the same thing... but often not.

-Dan

Dan,

Not exactly sure what to make of your reply.

Of course a copywriter has to look beyond market desires - that's what being a copywriter is all about, being in tune with human desires. That's certainly a given and Randall was asking about market research and relating to a market, not humans in general.

As for market research not being accurate the way I do it...sorry fella, but you're wrong. I dare you to try and guess what a market wants as well as guess the wording of people in that market. You won't be hitting very many home-runs. It doesn't seem like you've been doing this very long, have you?

Chris Elliott

Chris,

I've run some surveys (maybe 20) in various markets and one thing I've found is that customers rarely tell you what they really want.

I said it was a good tool... but you cannot treat that stuff as gospel. Your post (to me) read like you were saying that customers tell the truth.

They don't.

Heck, half the time your own market doesn't know what they really want, or why they want it... until you tell them. Then they go "aha!".

As for your comment of "You haven't been doing this very long"... there's no need to resort to unprofessional remarks because I disagree with you.

I've written quite a few "home run" letters now. My track record speaks for itself.

Plus... I'm one of Vin Montello's students. Ask Vin how many students he takes vs. how many want him to take them on... and then ask him how many of those he recommends to clients when he's booked.

Because I'm one of them.

I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me... that's your right... and I enjoy a healthy discussion.

But treating me like some green writer who has no idea what he's doing just isn't smart.

I will say though - I haven't written for thousands of clients in the last two years.

I'd have to push 1000 letters a year at LEAST to reach that - meaning about three a day with very few days off.

Considering I take two or three weeks to write my letters - and get paid handsomely for it.

Heck... I'll spend more than a day just writing my headline.

But my letters convert damn well.

Long story short... I know what I'm talking about.

Now... maybe we've gotten our wires crossed here... and we're talking about different things when we say "market research".

The survey idea is valid and useful. But it's only a small part of the puzzle. It won't give you anywhere close to the whole picture of what your market really thinks/wants.

That's all I'm trying to get across. If you disagree with me, that's cool... but I'm not just pulling this stuff out of thin air.

It's from experience... and it also happens to align with the beliefs of some of the most respected and successful copywriters alive today.

-Dan

Its how you interpret the research. That's when it works. Raw data alone won't do it. ALL major advertising agencies have a market research division - in or out of house.

But talking about "customers rarely tell you what they really want" the PlentyofFish dating site guy Marcus Frind (a mathematical genius BTW) has been so successful because he created algorithms that serve up matches not on what the clients said they were looking for in their profile but on what they were actually doing onsite. For instance, when the tracking showed that a guy was looking at blond bimbos instead of the "nice girl-next-door type" that he professed to be interested in meeting - that what Frind matched him up with - bimbos.

Dan,

You definitely have your wires crossed my friend.

If you think that you're going to make a name for yourself contradicting people who have way more experience, way more successes, and way more testing results than you, you're sadly mistaken buddy.

Your first statement "I've run some surveys (maybe 20)," doesn't hold water compared to my experience and testing. I've run *maybe* 4,000 tests. Do the math.

I don't care who your teacher is. You've had a website for what? 6 months? Maybe less? BTW Vin is also a friend.

I wasn't unprofessional in the slightest. I'm not going to let some kid who has so little experience try to snub my post because he thinks he's hot stuff. You're certainly not.

I've been a member of this forum for 10+ years in its various incarnations, I've written copy for Allen for the original Warrior Membership, I've written for fortune 100 companies and well over 2,000 small to medium sized businesses, I've been doing this for over a decade.

For you to think you can contradict my research tactics after 6 months of having a website is just plain foolish.

Dig yourself as deep as you'd like.

Chris Elliott

Before I start to write, I sit and do about a page describing my perfect prospect. This helps to some degree.

Another thing I suggest is to simply survey your target market (helps to survey existing customers). Ask them what their issues are and what steers their buying decisions. Give them a bribe to get them to complete the survey. I honestly dont know why people write or build businesses based on their intuition instead of surveys. It doesn't take long and it actually gives you an in to potential customers.

LOL. Sounds fine expert Dan.

My PM inbox tells me that I'm not the first person you've been so rude to.

You need to remember this is a public forum, people can see everything you write and they will form opinions based on that.

Chris Elliott

Randall,

I received a PM from a gentleman named Manfred this morning asking about potential questions so I'm going to share that PM here for you...

Hi Manfred,

Sure. Here are a few questions that will point you towards the heart of the biggest problems of the market your targeting...

1) What is the biggest "pain in the butt" that you face in [insert topic/subject]?

2) What product or service would you like to see created and made available to help you in achieving success in [insert topic/subject]?

3) Why do you enjoy [insert topic/subject] so much?

Now these questions are fairly general and mix up a combination of market problems, product desires, and potential feelings they are experiencing.

I generally use questions similar to these to start my survey campaign. Once I get about 30 responses, I try to use those responses to add more of the "language of the market" to my survey to further target the people I'm trying to reach. I also sometimes change questions all together if the market shows me glaring issues they are experiencing.

It's all about getting started and making adjustments using the "language of the market" as you go.

Good luck buddy!
Chris Elliott

Vin,

I hate to say that you're wrong, but you are. Anyone reading the post can form their opinion on that. I certainly didn't go after Dan at all, I just won't put up with some newbie trying to play down what I share with people based on real world testing, especially some "few months" copywriter.

Regardless of what you want to say to back Dan the expert up, he's just about as new as they come and his actions showcase that well.

Chris Elliott

And everyone here, be very careful about what you're reading from people saying "the market won't tell you the truth." This is representative of a new breed of copywriters who love to do no research at all and guess when creating copy. There's a reason I've had so many successes over the years.

Do you have to dig, or make adjustments based on initial survey responses as I stated to get to the inner desires of the market? Yep, but that will get you to the truth of the market and what it wants.

There's a reason I've written thousands, upon thousands of sales letters over the last decade and have testimonials from the most successful and notable copywriters of the century, among other people.

You better survey your market and get to know how they talk and what they want if you want to create consistent successes.

If you don't survey the market, you need to be prepared to spend a lot of time in forums interacting with the potential customers you would like to sell to on a personal basis - don't let them know you're trying to sell anything. Be a sheep in the herd. Other options are phone survey's, mailer survey's, feedback from existing customers.

Whatever you do, get data directly from the potential customers you're going to be targeting.

Anyone telling you otherwise is less than experienced.

Chris Elliott

The idea that you should look at what people do instead of what they say comes from Gary Halbert. Its not some noob copywriters idea, hes simply repeating Halberts words. And dont tell me you have more experience than Gary Halbert.

I typically do a months worth of research before writing. I have a giant checklist I go through, occasionally ive used surveys, I would say used properly they are useful, but if you say something like "would you buy this product?" then your not going to get an honest answer because the almighty dollar is not behind it.

However, if you use properly worded questions ive found them to work reasonably well. If my life depended on it id go with what people bought over what they said, people put their money where their desires are.

At the end of the day this is a pretty simply problem to fix, just test both and cross-reference the results. If where they put their money is in line with what they say they want, then you can validate it as a research tool.

Now before you go into another rant im talking about how other people can evaluate its effectiveness as a research tool not yourself.

Overall this is a pretty stupid argument, I dont see why anyone wouldn't just use both surveys and purchase data, its not like you have to just use one or the other ffs.

Dear Gladiator,

Of course you look at what people do first. Can anyone say common sense here? I never said analyzing people's actions wasn't a valid way to analyze a market, it sure is.

I wasn't bragging at all, just stating fact to demonstrate my experience which is substantial. Take it how you will.

As for your comments on my questions. I stated they were general questions meant to be adjusted as survey responses come in and my advice was to help Randall get started in researching his market. You apparently didn't read my posts fully.

If you're as experienced as you are trying to sound, you would know that in a lot of cases, getting access to customer purchase data is not possible. That's why surveying is essential.

Chris Elliott

They're called list brokers. I also never stated I had a problem with surveying, my problem is how stupid this argument is. I realize you were trying to help him before you got into a flame war, what im saying is now this is just argument for arguments sake.

Furthermore I never stated I had a problem with your questions and would use them myself. Once again my problem is this argument is stupid, its simpler to just use both whenever possible.

Gladiator,

I've very aware of list brokers. They certainly are not the end all of customer research.

This certainly is not a "flame war" or a "augment for arguments sake." To the contrary, I'm very calm and logical in my posts and simply pointing out the facts.

Chris Elliott

I think the truth is everybody agrees. Whenever humanly possible, find as much data about what people purchase as possible. I dont see a problem with using surveys in a persons research.

For Randall, if you join SRDS combined with a list broker then you can quickly search it to find out data on customer purchases, size of lists, and it goes on. Its a good source to find the size of the market, how hot it is and what size, type, and so on, of promotions they are into.

Some groups buy heavily into 30 day send no money, other are hard offers, some high priced, some low, etc. It shows you what other people do based off of how customers respond, which is very reliable data.

If you then join the lists and get promotions sent to you from other companies you will start to learn exactly what these prospects respond to.

Yep, SRDS is a very valuable publication but that and customer actions aren't going to give you the language of the market.

It's vital to know how the market talks and phrases their concerns so that you can use that same syntax in your copy. Potential customers in any market can sense a salesman with no experience in their market from a mile away.

Chris Elliott

LOL. Vin,

I never said I was the only one right or implied it. I also have not attacked anyone.

To make everything clear here...I was simply backing up my research and experience proven statements to someone who challenged them based on a few months experience. To make a general statement like "sometimes people out and out lie about what they really want" and that they "often" don't say what they want is extremely irresponsible.

The fact is, the majority of the time, the market will tell you EXACTLY what they want. About 5% of the time, you will have to make adjustments to your data collection strategy to get to what the market really wants via adjusting the questions based on market discussion.

Popups on exit with an additional question such as "What would make this offer more attractive?," "Why didn't you buy?" are a great way to collect additional data after creating copy based on initial market research. This data can then be used to make adjustments to the copy.

For Dan to say that the minority result, the market not telling you what they want, is "often" what happens, is completely inaccurate. People will tell you what they want far more often than not, far more.

I think that many additional ideas have come out of this debate and this thread offers great insight into market research and getting to know your market.

Good researching everyone,
Chris Elliott

Chris,

See... this is where you need to take a deep breath and go back. If anyone was "challenging" it was you. Daniel responded to the OP BEFORE you did. You chimed in and said the survey was "the most accurate" way. Then dan simply said it was "good" but there are other things you can do.

Listen... I tell my clients all the time if you want to know what's wrong with your marketing, ask your customers. I tell them also that asking your customers what they want is a good way to research. Then I lay out a half dozen other ways to do that.

Vin,

Actually, Dan said "sometimes people out and out lie about what they really want" and that they "often" don't say what they want which is inaccurate. He didn't say "there are other things you can do."

Dan sure did reply to the OP before I did, no quibble there.

I can sense your blood pressure rising in that you're recommending I take a deep breath. I'm calm and collected my friend, have been for this entire conversation.

Chris

LOL. Nice one Brian.

Vin,

You're absolutely right, that's why I love public forums.

Chris Elliott

Huh,

Strange thread.

I think you guys (Dan and Chris) are both right. At least I'm not seeing a big enough disagreement to warrant an argument and name calling. I don't see Daniel making an attack of any kind, and the "some kid with zero experience" name calling is a little uncalled for.

That's a pretty broad accusation.

People don't tell the truth about what they really want.

"Mr. Customer, why are you interested in the new BMW 350i?"

What he'll say: "I love the German engineering, the handling, the style, it's comfortable, etc".

What he means: "I have Mommy issues. I was a virgin until I was 25. My last wife married me for money and left me. I'm 42 and alone. I can't afford the payments, but it'll make me look and feel successful. More importantly, it'll get me laid."

I'm not saying all guys who drive Beamers really buy them for that reason, but people rarely buy anything with logic. They have deep emotional reasons for it.

I agree you can and should ask "what could I add to this offer to make it more attractive" and get some valuable feedback.

But you can't ask "why would you be interested in buying my traffic course" because without helping them realize it, even the customer may not know.

Do they want traffic? Yes. Why? Because traffic equals money. So do they want money? Yes? Why? Because they're 2 months behind on the mortgage, they're giving 60% of their paycheck to child support, they've been living on Ramen for 5 months, they work 60 hours a week in a job they hate and still can't afford to pay their bills...

There are deeper emotions we need to connect with as copywriters beyond the surface level stuff like "would you like to see a bonus section on SEO"... Can you agree with that much Chris?

The way I read it that's all Dan was saying.

And you guys are really talking about 2 kinds of research. The OP asked "How To Know Who My Customer Is?"

I'd say you both gave him decent advice.

Asking the market what they want is a good idea.

Looking at their buying actions vs. what they tell you is a better idea.

I can't find the link, I once read about a group of people being polled and asked if they'd buy a product from an infomercial. Something like 70% said "no". The entire group was a buyers list of infomercial products...

My answer: Ask them what they want. Pay more attention to what they do. And dig a lot deeper than what they tell you. When you dig below the surface and hit those emotions, the REAL reasons they're buying, that's when you hit gold.

Ricks advice, getting out there and talking to people, is a great way of figuring out what those deeper emotional buying reasons are.

-Scott

Hi Scott,

I certainly didn't call anyone a name. I said "some kid with zero experience," sure, in comparison to my experience. That's no where near the syntax or cruelty of a name as you imply.

I also didn't say that the only way to do research is surveys.

"Do they want traffic? Yes. Why? Because traffic equals money. So do they want money? Yes? Why? Because they're 2 months behind on the mortgage, they're giving 60% of their paycheck to child support, they've been living on Ramen for 5 months, they work 60 hours a week in a job they hate and still can't afford to pay their bills..."

Sure, you have to connect with the inner desires of your target market. I've said that in several posts in this thread already. This is the first step in becoming a copywriter and is gained by first learning about the psychology of human wants/desires and then analyzing a specific market (and what they say) to see which of those desires is being undeserved. Market research helps you connect those dots. It's your job as a researcher first to be able to see through the wants such as "I want more traffic," "I want more money," etc. based on market research so that you can put on the copywriting hat and hit those desires.

Chris Elliott

No problem at all Randall.

And don't worry about us, we'll be just fine.

Chris Elliott

Randall, Collette is absolutely right. You have no reason to feel bad at all.

Chris Elliott

Ken certainly hit the nail on the head.

Learning about human psychology is something that every person who aspires to be a copywriter should do first. As I stated earlier, "a copywriter has to look beyond market desires - that's what being a copywriter is all about, being in tune with human desires." This is why the majority of people just trying to get in and write, write, write - thinking they are going to succeed as a copywriter - fall short of achieving any real success.

Having that understanding of human desires is essential prior to doing any writing. In fact, I would say that if you try and learn copywriting without first understanding human desire, you are going to set yourself up for a long, painful, and likely, unsuccessful attempt at becoming a copywriter.

One book that is of immense value in being able to see other points of view, as well as get into the mindset of another person is Beyond Feelings by Vincent Ruggiero. Beyond Feelings will instill in you the ability to level with your potential customers as well as improve your writing while also teaching you about human desires and why we "do what we do." It's more of an academic book with no focus on business but it's applications in business copywriting are huge.

Chris Elliott

Chris,

I don't care what anyone says about you... I thought you were great when you used to be a regular on David Letterman.

Johnny

Johnny,

Yeah. Dave just wasn't paying enough

Chris

Hey Randall.

so special how big weird dudes want to measure how big their egos are online but nevermind that, let's make some monies

Like most things, a large part of making money online is MENTAL.

I have ample friends who have gotten into this whole thing without knowing any of the things you outline and who probably had less knowledge than you, but who, three months later, are doing 5 figures.

So my recommendation to you is to stop wondering if you're on the right track and just do it. It's basically free to throw up another domain and pimp it up so just try whatever you've got and tweak it after you get some responses. Stop trying to get it perfect and just get it up there and tweak from there. It's not a big deal, and you'll grow faaaar more by putting stuff up and messing it up than by taking your time to get it perfect first time.

Let me know if you need help with anything specific though

all the best mate
unleashreality