Feedback on a Site Please

14 years ago

Harlan,

First thing comes to mind is the word "CURE".

Is that a red flag to alphabet soup authorities?

Don't know if it would...has it passed legal inspection ?

All the best,
Ewen

Thanks
2 replies

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VanessaB 14 years ago

Harlan,
I think it's very good. I would be concerned about the same thing Ewen said, but I'm no lawyer.

Having known several people who suffer from diabetes and the very things you describe in this letter I would say you've not only hit the right points, and the common answers that aren't working for them, you also have a very appealing layout for a health product. It looks very professional, very properly structured for an 'authority' perspective.

One thing I didn't like was the box offering the 9 free gifts at the beginning. It seems 'garrish' to me. The colors remind me of a late night cheesy infomercial with the "As Seen On TV" logo. In some cases that would work, but I think the cheesiness of it, takes away from the otherwise impeccable job of building credibility with layout, design and copy on this site.

Otherwise, a teeny bit slow to load, but that could be me, I'm having to reload WF twice with every click today, and I'm not sure about the lightbox 3/4 of the way down the page, but I would be interested in hearing how that works out.

Hope that was helpful.

-Dani
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Mr. Subtle 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ewenmack

First thing comes to mind is the word "CURE".

Is that a red flag to alphabet soup authorities?

Nope...

(Note all the "cures" books.) Trudeau only got in deep trouble when he was PIKING his Coral Calcium. It's tough to go after someone exercising his first amendment rights.

To me it looks like a HOT product. (Hopefully he's not a scam puke like Trudeau.) I'm not crazy about the '05 look of the page layout... but if I had diabetes, I wouldn't think twice about spending $50. Personally I would have used Bottomline's old offer... don't send any money now, just fill out the form, we'll send it to you right away, enjoy reading it for 30 days (and if not delighted send it back) and only then we'll bill you $16.65 a month for 3 months.

What's his back end?

.
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Jag82

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

Please share your thoughts:

The 30 Day Diabetes Cure

Good, bad, indifferent?

Think it will fly?

My feedback:

The site is painfully slow to load.

You might want to do something about
the server because I'm positively sure
that the slow loading will negatively
impact the site's conversion.

- Jag

Thanks
1 reply

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Collette 14 years ago

Ditto on the slow load. I gave up. Maybe try again later.
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jbhyip

14 years ago

The site is super slow. It's been trying to load for me for the past 30sec. I'll try again latter.

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

14 years ago

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Harlan

14 years ago

Seems to be loading now.

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

14 years ago

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Harlan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

Aye, load time is much better.

I'm not going to critique your work Harlan, (I'm assuming this is yours?) however, a little less yellow highlighting perhaps?

Frst observation on a skim through.

Best,

Mark Andrews...

No critique? :-(

Thanks
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ewenmack 14 years ago

Harlan,

Site seems slow to load at 10 seconds...that's before video is loaded.

Seems like a leak in sales process to me.

All the best,
Ewen
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GR Marketing

14 years ago

From a copywriting standpoint it looks good, but you've got to be really careful with your claims in the health niche.

You should get a lawyer to go through it, he'll tear it apart of course, but its still good practice.

Thanks

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pr456

Banned 14 years ago

I gave up. Maybe try it again later.

Thanks

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ewenmack

14 years ago

I think we can come up with a stronger lead and headline...

Here's the headline, then explanation comes after...

Licensed Practising Doctor Says...

"Give Me Thirty Days, And I'll Completly Reverse Your Diabetes...
...I Can Make This Bold Claim Because, 100% Of My Patients Have Ditched Their Drugs...
...And Are Back To Living A Happy, Normal Life"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Explanation, Or Reason Why;

1 Pre-head. Using one of the most trusted people in society...Doctors. Surveys of who the most trusted people are in society, come up with Doctors and Firemen. Would use picture of a doctor with a white coat and stethoscope for instant recognition. Put it beside headline.

2 The first 4 words in the headline create further credibility by having the reader do something...in this case give the Doc 30 days.

3 Using numbers, in this case, 30, to be very specific in giving the reader an exact time frame of the desired outcome. The desired outcome being, reverse diabetes.

4 Tackles the readers B.S. detector head on by saying, 100% of the doctors patients have ditched their drugs. Once again, using specific numbers to create more believability.

5 Transitions the reader to picture that, indead, she can see herself living a happier life.
Always finish on a high note.

Harlan, just when you thought you could get back to the beach, I'm telling you to get back to work on this...should I be sorry..?

All the best,
Ewen

Originally Posted by Harlan

Please share your thoughts:

The 30 Day Diabetes Cure

Good, bad, indifferent?

Think it will fly?

Thanks

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 14 years ago

I should think the FTC would have a field day on this one. Especially claims like this - "Able to completely REVERSE diabetes in 30 days or less".

Officials at the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) say health fraud promoters often target people who are overweight or have serious conditions for which there are no cures, including multiple sclerosis, diabetes, Alzheimer's disease, cancer, HIV and AIDS, and arthritis.

You might want to read the rest of this FTC page - http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/cons...lth/hea07.shtm

And more -

Diabetes Health Fraud

Over the past year, the Mexico, United States, Canada Health Fraud Working Group (MUCH) has focused enforcement and consumer education efforts on fraudulent products to treat diabetes. In October 2006, MUCH member agencies announced that they had taken nearly 200 compliance actions against companies promoting bogus products that provide false hope to people with diabetes. The compliance actions include Advisory Letters, Warning Letters, and import refusals. Many of the actions are still pending, but some firms have voluntarily removed false claims and discontinued sales of the bogus products.

Regulatory authorities in Canada and Mexico also released educational materials for consumers and announced the compliance actions they took against bogus diabetes treatments.

Here are some examples of unproven claims to treat diabetes:

Drop your blood sugar 50 points in 30 days, or it's free …
Eliminate insulin resistance.
Prevent the development of type 2 diabetes.
Reduce or eliminate the need for diabetes drugs and/or insulin.
Prevent diabetes-related eye disease, damage to cells caused by poor blood sugar control.
Take the natural alternative to…the diabetes drug metformin.

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travlinguy

14 years ago

The word cure is an issue when it addresses a specific disease. You could have problems with both the FTC and the FDA. And the AMA loves to blow the whistle and cry fowl on borderline stuff when it threatens their monopoly. If the offer were to become popular you can pretty much expect a challenge.

Most people with diabetes can get rid of it with the right diet, exercise and lifestyle. I didn't read the whole page but would guess that a combination of these three factors makes up most of the program.

From what I read it flows well and seems to be credible. Up front you mention that the program is as easy to follow as your car's GPS. I don't know the stats on how many people have a GPS but I'd go with an analogy a bit simpler and less technical as many won’t relate to this at all.

Good luck.

Thanks
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Collette 14 years ago

In this case, the copy is selling a book, not a drug, product, or other physical substance. Book claims fall under First Amendment protection. Additionally, the FTC/FDA problems with "cure" relate to structure/function claims, and so don't apply here.

*Caveat: I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV*

That said - the word is sure to attract FTC attention. I guess the author (and the author's attorney) believes it's worth the potential hassles and headaches.

If I were writing this, I'd probably modify it a bit to say something like "Some readers have used the advice in [BOOK] to lower their blood sugar levels by X%/points or more!

[Blood sugar lowered Testimonials yada, yada]"

Gets around the whole 'claims' issue while still getting the info out.

Overall, I found the flow choppy and confusing.

For example, I immediately skimmed to find the points mentioned in headline which interested me, and couldn't easily locate them. Which gave the whole thing the feel of scam job. For me. Your mileage may vary.

Also, since this is positioned as a head-to-head against "the leading" medication, I didn't get enough 'proof' in the presentation to convince me. I would have liked to see more 'factual' specifics re: studies etc. Again: for me. Your mileage may vary.

Since I've written for this market, I admit I'm probably looking at this letter with a slightly more jaded eye than most.

But in answer to the OP question: "Will it fly?" Chances are this letter will fly fine, just as it is.

P.S. Like Subtle: Hating on the layout. Really hating. Particularly that horrible Free Report box as soon as you get into the body copy. Garish and distracting.

P.P.S. Did I mention I hate the layout?
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ewenmack 14 years ago

Despite the crackdown, there are 204 book titles on Amazon that have the words Cure and Diabetes.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...etes&x=14&y=20

So there is a way around it.

Maybe the First Amendment for the freedom of speech?

All the best,
Ewen
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The Copy Nazi

Banned 14 years ago

I note that the author is an ex psychiatric nurse and has a "doctorate" in naturopathy - not traditional medicine. Seems to me you're misrepresenting him as a doctor. Not a good look. There's a world of difference between a qualified medical doctor and a so-called doctor of naturopathy.

In the United States and Canada, the designation of Naturopathic Doctor (ND) or naturopathic medical doctor (NMD)may be awarded after completion of a four year program of study at an accredited Naturopathic medical school that includes the study of basic medical sciences as well as natural remedies and medical care. The scope of practice varies widely between jurisdictions, and naturopaths in unregulated jurisdictions may use the Naturopathic Doctor designation or other titles regardless of level of education.

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Rezbi

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

Please share your thoughts:

The 30 Day Diabetes Cure

Good, bad, indifferent?

Think it will fly?

Harlan,

Did you write this?

It doesn't look like your work to me.

Thanks
1 reply

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Harlan 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Rezbi

Harlan,

Did you write this?

It doesn't look like your work to me.

Actually I didn't.

I wish I did.

Ladies and gentlemen, I want to thank you all for playing.

I posted this because like all copy forums, it brings out the inner critic in everyone.

This copy was written by Jim Punkre.

Don't know the name?

He's near the top of the "A list". And that letter belongs in your swipe file.

Now allow me to let you in on a secret.

That letter converts like crazy. The numbers are off the charts.

And for all those who think the letter is illegal, you don't know your copy history.

Subtle alluded to it in his pointing to the use of the word cure.

You can not use "cure" with a supplement or device.

But with a book, ANYTHING GOES.

For example:

When you sell a weight loss product, it is illegal to make a claim of permanent weight loss.

But not if it's a book.

And who was it who sued the government over this?

Eugene Schwartz who sued and won claiming first amendment freedom of speech.

Guys.

Tossing a piece of copy here is like throwing raw meat in the shark tank.

A bunch of guys did not take the bait and contacted me via PM to ask about it.

Not every piece of copy here is automatically bad.

I won't embarrass some of you with your comments.

Just understand something:

This is some of the best copy you will ever see.

Any fault you find in it is in your own eyes.

"A-list" copywriters account for every single word.

Punkre's copy should be savored like a fine wine.

Now go and learn.

Peace,

Harlan

PS. Hope you learned something from this. ;-)
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- ewenmack 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Harlan
  
  PS. Hope you learned something from this. ;-)
  
  Sure did...thanks.
  
  Subtle pointed out "Cure" being in book titles, so did some research over at Amazon and reported back the findings.
  
  So quickly swayed my mind with that knowledge and recalling Eugene winning a case for Constitional free speech.
  
  Does anybody know if Jim Punkre and Gary Bencivenga competed against each other?
  
  Results?
  
  All the best,
  Ewen
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  Harlan 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by ewenmack
  
  Does anybody know if Jim Punkre and Gary Bencivenga competed against each other?
  
  Results?
  
  All the best,
  Ewen
  
  Why do you care?
  
  Gary beat everyone most of the time.
  
  But that was years ago.
  
  Focus on the present.
  
  Thanks
  
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- Collette 14 years ago
  
  Maybe I'm feeling a little ornery this morning because I'm only on my first cup of coffee, but...
  
  Originally Posted by Harlan
  
  Now go and learn.
  ...
  
  If you intended this post to be a teaching example, then it has been a FAIL.
  
  Any A-list copywriter worth their salt knows that there's some way even a seemingly invincible control can be beaten - eventually. (For example, see: Wall Street Journal Letter).
  
  In other words, there is some way, no matter how small, that even a killer control can be improved.
  
  And any A-list copywriter worth squat will admit that. Including, I'm assuming, Jim Punkre (even though I've never met him).
  
  Moreover, even A-list copywriters (especially A-list copywriters) aren't always in harmonious agreement as to whether a particular piece of copy is the best damn thing they've ever read.
  
  If they were, they wouldn't go up against each other's controls all the time. Which they do. All the time.
  
  If that letter had been written for, say, Rodale, and not by Jim, for Jim, you can bet your bippies that another A-lister would have taken a crack at it.
  
  There's no such thing as a 'perfect' letter - which is what you seem to be implying this letter is. Even though this letter that is working 'like crazy' for this particular section of the market, that doesn't mean it's going to work for every segment of this market. Or it would be getting 100% conversions.
  
  (BTW: Got some figures on those 'numbers off the charts'?)
  
  Now, sure, some of the comments showed that there is confusion about what copy claims you can make under the FTC guidelines. And this post could have served as a really valuable teaching post, had you gone over the copy and pointed out why this or that word was used instead of a different one.
  
  Nor does it really matter that any 'fault' found resides in the eye of the beholder. Because, y'know, That's Life. People perceive through the lens of their own limitations of knowledge and experience.
  
  That's not good, or bad. It just, is.
  
  And one of the purposes of the WF is to help people get better; to open their eyes to new opportunities and ways of doing things, and broaden and increase their base of knowledge.
  
  So, as you said, not every piece of copy here is automatically bad.
  
  However, not every piece of copy here is going to resonate with everyone here. And, in the real world, not every piece of copy is going to resonate with everyone. Even if it's been written by an A-lister.
  
  And, it seems to me, to open a thread requesting comments, with the hidden and express intention of trying to make commentors look (and feel) foolish, ignorant, and incompetent, is not helpful. Nor is it in the spirit of the forum.
  
  I do think there's a couple of valuable lessons to be extracted here though.
  
  People who hire copywriters, take heed: Claims that copy can 'force' people to buy your product through the sheer power of the copywriter's genius are bullsh*t. Some people will buy, and some won't. Regardless of who writes the letter.
  
  Copywriters, take heed: Even A-listers write copy that fails to sway everyone. Sometimes they even write bombs. 'Perfect' sales copy is an illusion. So strive to make your copy as 'perfect' as you can, but don't become discouraged by the fact that your copy can be improved. Every A-lister has written crap they'd prefer had never seen the light of day. You will, too. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, learn from your mistakes, and you will be that much closer to becoming an A-list copywriter.
  
  (On a side note about the 'bow-down-and-worship-them-awesomeness-of-A-list-copywriters:
  
  The Bible is the #1 bestselling book of all time. So, theoretically, I guess you could say that God and his copy cubs are the #1 A-list copywriters of all time.
  
  Yet, in some markets, even in segments of the market the Bible is aimed at (people seeking information on Judeo-Christian beliefs), the Bible has failed to convert browsers into buyers.)
  
  Finally, I guess what really struck a nerve with me was the whole 'worship the guru' tone of the concluding response.
  
  I'm so over the 'untouchable, unquestionable guru arrogance' thing.
  
  [ 6 ] Thanks
  
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Rezbi

14 years ago

I already added it to my swipe file. I know good copy when I see it.

Not always, but mostly.

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writeandreview

14 years ago

I was going to comment that I thought the names,

1. Dr. Rip (the nickname his patients gave him) ( made me think Dr. R.I.P.)
2. Jim Healthy - the sig at the bottom

were kinda funny.

But, now that the kitten's out of the crawl space, I won't bother

Thanks
1 reply

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Harlan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by writeandreview

I was going to comment that I thought the names,

1. Dr. Rip (the nickname his patients gave him) ( made me think Dr. R.I.P.)
2. Jim Healthy - the sig at the bottom

were kinda funny.

But, now that the kitten's out of the crawl space, I won't bother

Now I wonder what you'd find if you Googled "Jim Healthy"

Hmmm.

Thanks
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writeandreview 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Harlan

Now I wonder what you'd find if you Googled "Jim Healthy"

Hmmm.

The first name I Googled was Jim Punkre and a site popped up that listed names, bios and photos of most of the top copywriters (Harlan you were in the list.)

Then I Googled "Jim Healthy" and arthritisinterrupted -- com popped up in the list. On the page "About Jim Healthy" a photo of a J.D. Parker is displayed. J.D. Parker looks a lot like Jim Punkre. (sellingtohumannature -- com)

I have reached the one and only logical conclusion ...

Jim Healthy, J.D. Parker and Jim Punkre are a set of direct response writing phenom identical triplets.
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- 1 reply
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- ewenmack 14 years ago
  
  Just found Jim's bio...
  
  Impressive reading.
  
  "His copy for The Doctor's Book Of Home Remedies holds the record for the most mail order books sold, 16 million copies producing more than $400 million in sales for Rodale Publishing.
  
  Over his award winning career in copywriting, Jim has hauled in more than $5 BILLION in sales for clients such as Time Life Books, U.S. News and World Report, Playboy, Reader's Digest, Prevention, Men's Health, Boardroom Books, Phillips Publishing and a host of others."
  
  All the best,
  Ewen
  
  Thanks
  
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Harlan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Any "A-Listers" out there feel confident enough to give me a shot at their control copy?

I'm getting a little annoyed at the crowing.

I just spit my coffee out my nose.

You want a shot at a control?

Do you know what that means for a big company?

How much they have to invest in editorial, legal, graphic design, printing and mailing costs to test your masterpiece?

My kid had his first hockey lesson this morning.

You think we should start calling NHL teams looking for a tryout?

Learn a little humility.

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Harlan

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Oh please. Try, try to contain yourself, Harlan. I don't play hockey. I write sales copy. Oh, and a small company will do. If I wanted to be a corporate drone, that's where I'd be.

You don't know who I am or where I've been. and that's cool.

I just get a little tired of the big me, little you crap you're so fond of dishing out.

How's that finger-healing thing going, by the way?

No I don't know you but in a thread about A list copywriters, you wanted a shot at a control.

The A listers are anything but corporate drones.

They work on their own time and they are extremely well paid for what they did.

All of them worked their way up the ranks.

It's okay if you don't like my style.

And thanks for asking about mudras (finger healing). It's one of my most successful products ever.

I'm going to redo the site and offer a new set of symbols based on all the inquires.

In the direct marketing world, it would be considered a home run.

Tens of thousands of people write in every day and ask for specific mudras.

I'm not sure there is one to become an A-list copywriter though.

Good luck on your journey.

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maximus242

14 years ago

Heh as soon as I saw what website you were asking for critique I knew it was a home run. There was no way youd ever need a critique for copy like that, especially not on the warrior forum. The only ones who could improve copy like that are the best of the best. I thought it might of been Makepeaces handy work.

I have to agree with Harlan, sometimes copy gets critiqued thats actually decent and is made worse after the critiques. I remember one that was basically a story that got chewed apart and the original almost sold me while I was reading it. Im like how bad can it be if I almost bought it?

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Jag82

14 years ago

100% in agreement with Collette.

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RentItNow

14 years ago

I'm actually in this niche as well as an affiliate. It is possible to cure but involves drastic life changes. I am type I and I have been slowly making those changes but it is a battle at times.

My comment on the copy is the call to action is weak on the page. Needs to be MASSIVE! I'd even test a picture of a meter or something to draw attention to it.

Oh, also, the site was slow loading so you may want to put the headline above the video so people will not click away too fast.

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I have no agenda but to help those in the same situation. This I feel will pay the bills.

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Rezbi

14 years ago

I'm a martial arts instructor so I'm going to use an example from that to illustrate my point. I hope no one takes offence as that's not my intention.

There's a guy in his 20s who believes, with good reason, he's one of the best MMA fighters in the UK. He is good.

He went to a seminar run by a guy in his 60s. This older guy was the best karateka in the world when he was in his 30s.

Put it this way, Bruce Lee would have been mince meat if they'd fought. I'm not joking.

Anyway, even though he'd gone to learn from the guy, the younger guy was arrogant. So the older guy dropped him like a sack of potatoes.

The youngster got up, called the instructor a bully and walked off. Instead of admitting maybe he had a lot more to learn than he thought.

The instructor was puzzled. He didn't figure a tough guy like that would just walk off after being decked. He figured he'd want to stay and maybe get better once he realised he wasn't as good as he thought.

However, the youngster was way too arrogant to admit defeat. And, as a result, he refused to accept that maybe, just maybe, he might actually learn something by swallowing his pride.

Now, the instructor may not be the best any more, especially at his age, but he still had a lot to teach the youngster. If only he'd humbled himself enough to realise his limitations.

How does that apply here?

Well, a control can always be beaten. And they eventually do.

That does not mean we can't learn from them.

Face it, they don't even have to be controls. As long as they're better than what we can do, or have done, we can learn from them.

There's a few comments on here, even from people who have obviously been writing copy for longer than I have, which are completely wrong. I won't point them out, but they're there.

Harlan has done a good thing by putting up Jim Punkre's copy. And it's exposed a few people's weaknesses.

That's not a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with being wrong. At least you tried to figure it out.

If you accept that and realise you can learn from it, you will.

If you refuse to accept that simple little fact, I'm willing to bet you won't get very far.

Oh, sure, you may make money. Maybe even a lot of money. But I'm willing to bet you'll never get to the top. If that's what you want.

Like I said, I mean no offence by this post. I still have so much more to learn, so I'd be the last person to belittle anyone.

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Hank Rearden

14 years ago

Finger Healing is a favorite of mine...

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MontelloMarketing

14 years ago

I have to say I don't see how this thread turned into a choosing sides situation. I think the letter is an obvious winner no matter who wrote it. Are there things I would have done differently? Sure... but then again I'm not always right either.

I know this much... if Harlan says it's swipe worthy I'm keeping the letter. Plain and simple... no questions asked. I think you all would be smart to do the same.

I don't even "swipe" but reading and being inspired by what works is what keeps this game fun for me... and keeps me evolving as a writer.

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Collette

14 years ago

It's not about choosing sides. I said nothing about choosing sides.

When I see a post that asks for people to comment on a letter and then subsequently 'mocks' them for not giving the 'right' answer, it rubs me the wrong way.

Time and time again, senior copywriters point out that the key to using a swipe file effectively is to understand why the letters in your swipe file work.

'It works' is not a teaching point.

Had this been a thread where the control had been used as an example of how and why the way it was written works, I would have applauded.

It was not. No 'why' was offered. No explanation = no learning.

Yet people were instructed to 'go and learn'.

Learn what? What was 'taught' here? Except that, when asked by a well-known copywriter to comment on a piece of copy, people would be well-advised to not contribute. Or risk being ridiculed.

Where was the 'learning' offered? That you don't have to - personally - like a piece of sales copy for it to work in its chosen market?

Wow.

Copywriting 101 Newsflash.

A huge problem with the copywriting profession right now is the abundance of people offering copywriting services who have no frickin' idea how to write a decent piece of copy. Of any kind.

And with all the chest-beating and the good-ol-boy exclusivity, these same people pretend to know more than they actually do. Because if you're not a 6-figure copywriter (or not pretending to be one) then bygawd you're nothing.

Besides - all they have to do is swipe a control, and everything will magically fall into place, right?

So now we are assaulted by an avalanche of 'sales letters' with 65-word headlines, liberally adorned with yellow highlighter, and copy that babbles on in overheated adjectives for 47 pages, yet fails to make one cogent selling point.

And the entire profession gets a bad name.

Lest you think I have it in for Jim Punkre: I have some of Punkre's letters in my swipe file. And you know what? I LIKE them. I chose them because (a) they were controls, (b) I wanted to dissect them for my own learning, and (c) they made me want to buy.

This letter was not one of them.

I really don't know why we're all supposed to worship at the same altars of the same sacred cows. There are millions of people - with pre-diabetic conditions - who Punkre's letter would leave completely cold. If they even read the thing past the headline.

To not acknowledge that there is a VAST market on whom this kind of writing does not work does nothing more than perpetuate the self-serving copywriting myth that there is only ONE way to write great sales copy.

Yet should anyone challenge or question The Sacred Names...

... the thud of swooning acolyte bodies hitting the ground can be heard for miles around

... grown men are overcome by an attack of the vapors that would be the envy of a Victorian virgin

... and cries of "Heretic!" and "Traitor" fill the air as the faithful rush to light the execution pyre.

Sound melodramatic?

Well so are all the hushed whispers of:

"Big Name Copywriter wrote it. Question it not. Thus it was written; thus it should always be done."

[ 8 ] Thanks
2 replies

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Rezbi

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Collette

A huge problem with the copywriting profession right now is the abundance of people offering copywriting services who have no frickin' idea how to write a decent piece of copy. Of any kind.

And with all the chest-beating and the good-ol-boy exclusivity, these same people pretend to know more than they actually do. Because if you're not a 6-figure copywriter (or not pretending to be one) then bygawd you're nothing.

Got to agree with you there. There does seem to be a lot of elitism in copywriting, even (especially?) on this forum.

And, from my experience, it's not usually the proven guys who are behaving like that.

Isn't that part of the reason why we dislike lawyers so much?

Are we saying it's okay to have a go at others about something, and then do the same thing ourselves?

Thanks

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MontelloMarketing

14 years ago

First... Collette, I wasn't singling you out. I just saw the thread getting contentious for what I consider no reason.

Second... I like you Collette, so please don't take this singling out (in this post) as being any sort of personal attack.

IMO study is study. If someone cares to give reasons, great. If they don't and I'm left to figure it out on my own, oh well. That doesn't stop me from taking it. In fact I often learn more that way.

I sometimes get a lot more out of it when I have to figure it out myself. My students will tell you I often challenge them in the same way.

And I must admit I didn't see any ridicule. A little of doc being doc, that's all. We're all different personalities here. Doc enjoys (I assume) watching some who claim expertise, stick their own feet in their mouths. So what? No one gets hurt. If anything it teaches us all that maybe we don't know everything... maybe more learning is what matters.

All I was saying was take it... be glad to have it handed to you... and learn from it.

As for the pre-diabetics reaction to the letter, I don't know. I know I am type 2 and my reaction after reading the first 1/3 and deeply skimming the rest was that it was hitting the right buttons for me. And don't we all learn that not everyone is your audience? Don't we all learn that trying to please everyone usually means you please no one?

Maybe then I'm the target. Maybe it pushes my buttons because my buttons are the ones it needs to push. That's a possibility, no?

Maybe this letter isn't really for pre-diabetics. Maybe it's for guys like me who stress over their numbers and worry about what the pills are doing to us.

Maybe it's for men and women who hear from their doctors "eventually all diabetics pancreas' will die which means you'll ultimately need insulin. The only diabetics who don't are those who don't live long enough for the pancreas to give out."

Maybe it's only meant to speak to us and therefore the flaws others see aren't flaws at all.

Or maybe, just maybe it's full of flaws but perfection isn't really what's needed here.

I don't know.

What I do know is I will learn from this piece. And it's not often Doc introduces a piece of winning copy that I don't learn something from.

Originally Posted by Collette

It's not about choosing sides. I said nothing about choosing sides.

When I see a post that asks for people to comment on a letter and then subsequently 'mocks' them for not giving the 'right' answer, it rubs me the wrong way.

Time and time again, senior copywriters point out that the key to using a swipe file effectively is to understand why the letters in your swipe file work.

'It works' is not a teaching point.

Had this been a thread where the control had been used as an example of how and why the way it was written works, I would have applauded.

It was not. No 'why' was offered. No explanation = no learning.

Yet people were instructed to 'go and learn'.

Learn what? What was 'taught' here? Except that, when asked by a well-known copywriter to comment on a piece of copy, people would be well-advised to not contribute. Or risk being ridiculed.

Where was the 'learning' offered? That you don't have to - personally - like a piece of sales copy for it to work in its chosen market?

Wow.

Copywriting 101 Newsflash.

A huge problem with the copywriting profession right now is the abundance of people offering copywriting services who have no frickin' idea how to write a decent piece of copy. Of any kind.

And with all the chest-beating and the good-ol-boy exclusivity, these same people pretend to know more than they actually do. Because if you're not a 6-figure copywriter (or not pretending to be one) then bygawd you're nothing.

Besides - all they have to do is swipe a control, and everything will magically fall into place, right?

So now we are assaulted by an avalanche of 'sales letters' with 65-word headlines, liberally adorned with yellow highlighter, and copy that babbles on in overheated adjectives for 47 pages, yet fails to make one cogent selling point.

And the entire profession gets a bad name.

Lest you think I have it in for Jim Punkre: I have some of Punkre's letters in my swipe file. And you know what? I LIKE them. I chose them because (a) they were controls, (b) I wanted to dissect them for my own learning, and (c) they made me want to buy.

This letter was not one of them.

I really don't know why we're all supposed to worship at the same altars of the same sacred cows. There are millions of people - with pre-diabetic conditions - who Punkre's letter would leave completely cold. If they even read the thing past the headline.

To not acknowledge that there is a VAST market on whom this kind of writing does not work does nothing more than perpetuate the self-serving copywriting myth that there is only ONE way to write great sales copy.

Yet should anyone challenge or question The Sacred Names...

... the thud of swooning acolyte bodies hitting the ground can be heard for miles around

... grown men are overcome by an attack of the vapors that would be the envy of a Victorian virgin

... and cries of "Heretic!" and "Traitor" fill the air as the faithful rush to light the execution pyre.

Sound melodramatic?

Well so are all the hushed whispers of:

"Big Name Copywriter wrote it. Question it not. Thus it was written; thus it should always be done."

[ 1 ] Thanks
1 reply

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Collette

14 years ago