Is it me or do today's 'Great' copywriters SUCK at teaching copywriting?

14 years ago

I know exatly what you mean - and my suggested solution is to get a course that includes mentoring - like this one:

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...-6-months.html

But I'd hurry with this one - Paul is getting rather busy, and a little birdie tels me he may be pulling the WSO soon and increasing the price - get it while it is still here!

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Snow_Predator 14 years ago

What in the world Nicola, are you pitching me on a copywriting forum?
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Alex Cohen

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Snow_Predator

I was just wondering. I've been through courses by a number of copywriters deemed to be today's best. These include John Carlton, Dan Kennedy, Ted Nicholas, Clayton Makepeace and a few more. Now with all of their products, I've come away with little tidbits of info that really make me think 'Yeh,' that's a great idea, that could work. And while I'm reading the book I may even be convinced that it's good.

But EVERY time I've come away after having finished the book, no better at writing copy than before I read the book. I still don't have a clue how to write copy.

UNTIL I read one of the classics - Breakthrough Advertising by John Caples. This book has given me more insight than any of these new books (almost all of which recommend you read Breakthrough Advertising and some other works such as Scientific Advertising (Claud Hopkins) and the Robert Collier Letter Book.

Now I get the feeling that the copywriting gurus of today, although may be good at writing ads themselves, totally suck at teaching it. Am I the only one that feels this way?

My experience has been the opposite. I learn better from the modern masters.

That said, it's important to realize, just because a certain copywriter is successful doesn't mean he or she is necessarily a good teacher. Some are, but some couldn't teach their way out of a wet paper bag.

Alex

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marciayudkin 14 years ago

But EVERY time I've come away after having finished the book, no better at writing copy than before I read the book. I still don't have a clue how to write copy.

You're not alone, and it's not the fault of the authors you've been reading.

It has to do with your learning style. You probably need the feedback and guidance of a mentor in order to understand how to apply the masters' nuggets of experience to your own projects.

I've seen this phenomenon again and again - many people can't put abstract principles into action without someone's feedback on where they're going wrong and where they're going right. Imagine trying to learn to drive a car from a book! Verbal principles can take you only so far.

Some people do learn fine from books. Others learn well from observation. For the rest, they need to try it out and get expert feedback in order to master whatever it is.

Marcia Yudkin (someone with more than 30 years of teaching experience)
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- gjabiz 14 years ago
  
  I agree with Marcia about different learning styles.
  
  The thing is, very few teachers customize their lessons to meet a particular student's style.
  
  But there is also a different approach. That is to tell the student exactly how the lessons are going to be presented and to insure a MATCH before accepting their money.
  
  See, most "classes" and copywriting courses are, well, just that: COURSES. They have the lessons already laid out for anyone and everyone who gives them money.
  
  They don't consider (nor should they) any quirks in learning styles.
  
  So, it is on YOU to know how you learn, which way suits you best and to find the right teacher which is most in synch with you.
  
  The alternative is to have custom tailored lessons made for you because the "off the rack" one size fits all approach doesn't meet your needs. May be more time and money, but the pay back or results may be gained faster too.
  
  gjabiz
  
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  1 reply
  
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  RickDuris 14 years ago
  
  YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
  
  - Rick Duris
  
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  CopyRanger.com
  
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  Snow_Predator 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by RickDuris
  
  YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
  
  - Rick Duris
  
  omg Rick, thanks! Yoda just taught me the secret of copywriting :p
  
  Yoda: "No, try not - do, or do not. There is no try".
  Yoda: "You must feel the force around you"
  
  Luke Skywalker: In astonished disbelief after Yoda's miraculous feat of moving a spaceship through the air like any other Jedi Master could move a paperclip - "Master Yoda, I don't believe it!!!!!!!"
  Yoda: " 'I don't believe it'... that.... is why you fail"
  
  ... nice ^_^
  
  Thanks
  
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Gary Pettit

14 years ago

Get a hold of E.B. White's classic essay, "The Elements of Style." It remains the shortest, clearest and best tutorial for effective writing. I'm sure it's available online, or any librarian would be happy to guide you to a copy.

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tpw

14 years ago

It has been said many times before, "Some can do, and those who cannot do tend to teach... It is a rare person who can do both..."

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Hank Rearden

14 years ago

... Since when did Caples write Breakthrough Advertising?

You also misspelled Claude Hopkins' name.

Be careful with fact checking - copywriting lesson of the day ;-)

- HR

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Snow_Predator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Hank Rearden

... Since when did Caples write Breakthrough Advertising?

You also misspelled Claude Hopkins' name.

Be careful with fact checking - copywriting lesson of the day ;-)

- HR

ekh I meant to say Schwartz

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Snow_Predator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sparkie2260

Get a hold of E.B. White's classic essay, "The Elements of Style." It remains the shortest, clearest and best tutorial for effective writing. I'm sure it's available online, or any librarian would be happy to guide you to a copy.

By William Strunk? Yeh, John Carlton recommended that. I'll check it out. I suppose a big part of it is keeping the reader interested, creating a flow.

I'll check it out thanks.

Thanks

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tommcsherry

14 years ago

Alongside what everyone has said here about learning styles, I'd like to point out that copywriting is a skill which is better learnt by doing it than reading about it. You have to get a feel for the rhythm and flow of copy - that's something no book can give you. Books are signposts, but you still have to take the journey.

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MikeHumphreys

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Snow_Predator

I was just wondering. I've been through courses by a number of copywriters deemed to be today's best. These include John Carlton, Dan Kennedy, Ted Nicholas, Clayton Makepeace and a few more. Now with all of their products, I've come away with little tidbits of info that really make me think 'Yeh,' that's a great idea, that could work. And while I'm reading the book I may even be convinced that it's good.

But EVERY time I've come away after having finished the book, no better at writing copy than before I read the book. I still don't have a clue how to write copy.

UNTIL I read one of the classics - Breakthrough Advertising by John Caples. This book has given me more insight than any of these new books (almost all of which recommend you read Breakthrough Advertising and some other works such as Scientific Advertising (Claud Hopkins) and the Robert Collier Letter Book.

Now I get the feeling that the copywriting gurus of today, although may be good at writing ads themselves, totally suck at teaching it. Am I the only one that feels this way?

It's definitely your learning style. You need to find the right copywriting teaching "source" that teaches the way you best learn.

I've yet to find a single copywriting teacher who explains everything perfectly for my learning style. I have found that sometimes getting different explanations on certain copywriting tactics has helped me "get it" that much stronger.

I think you switched your book titles.

I agree with you partially... Tested Advertising Methods by John Caples is one of the best classic copywriting books I've ever read. I know alot of copywriters who rave about Eugene Schwartz's Breakthrough Advertising but... it's been an extremely painful and slow read for me. I've been slowly chipping away at it for over a year now and I'm normally a really fast reader.

Take care,

Mike

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Steve The Copywriter

14 years ago

I've been copywriting for years and years and agree that learning it - is all about your own style. For me I studied countless "gurus" and eventually found the ones that "clicked" with my style.

I do agree with "Breakthrough Advertising" - I heard about it 27 years ago, and thought it would truly be - the holy grail to absolute fame and fortune.

It might well be - but it's a very, very tough read.

When it was re-published I was elated - but even after the 7th attempt - I'm still struggling to "get" it.

But when I read Schwartz's Ads - they are just brilliant - and I've swiped many parts over the years and watched my Ad responses rocket up.

I've never found a "guru" who can really "explain" "Breakthrough Advertising" - some talk about "The States of Awareness" reasonably well, some have done charts which are helpful but still extremely complex.

But no one has been able to "teach" it.

One day, I hope someone will somehow analyise everything in the book and miraculously put together a course - which magically explains it all - simply and easily.

But that may never happen - because genius copywriting like Schwartzs' probably can't be "taught" - somehow you have to learn it yourself.

So you keep staggering through the book - and suddenly you have a "moment" and slowly pick up some of the killer techniques.

And when you do - it really hits you - and whatever your writing suddenly gets turbo charged and becomes so much better.

Fortunately in the meantime you can read Caples and still become an excellent and with a bit of practice an outstanding copywriter.

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Hank Rearden

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Copywriter

I've never found a "guru" who can really "explain" "Breakthrough Advertising" - some talk about "The States of Awareness" reasonably well, some have done charts which are helpful but still extremely complex.

But no one has been able to "teach" it.

It's simple.

When you implement the book from cover to cover, practically in order, you have a sales letter. And a damn good one, at that.

The magic to Breakthrough Advertising isn't secret. It's not hidden. It's right there - he's direct.

The real magic is treating each and every ad as it's own problem. Giving each individual market it's own solution.

The second piece of magic is the concept that all advertising boils down to one, powerful message. And your entire ad is built to support that message.

Breakthrough Advertising is built to support the idea that all ads shouldn't be the same... Because all advertising problems are not the same.

I think if you read it with this in mind, you may get more out of it.

- HR

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Dean Jackson

14 years ago

I personally learn best by just diving in head first. Then as you continue to write, and go back over your older copies you begin to see things you can improve. That's how I had my "aha" moments.

I have read some of the classics, but again, just doing it gave me more than any book could.

I also wonder occasionally if salespeople, whether in print or not just have an innate understanding of how to get their way with people.

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Snow_Predator

14 years ago

tommcsherry:

Alongside what everyone has said here about learning styles, I'd like to point out that copywriting is a skill which is better learnt by doing it than reading about it. You have to get a feel for the rhythm and flow of copy - that's something no book can give you. Books are signposts, but you still have to take the journey.

I know, I need to start writing out more pieces of copy, testing them and seeing for myself what works. There are just some subtleties in learning that cannot be taught... they can only be learned.

MikeHumphreys:

It's definitely your learning style. You need to find the right copywriting teaching "source" that teaches the way you best learn.

I've yet to find a single copywriting teacher who explains everything perfectly for my learning style. I have found that sometimes getting different explanations on certain copywriting tactics has helped me "get it" that much stronger.

I think you switched your book titles.

I agree with you partially... Tested Advertising Methods by John Caples is one of the best classic copywriting books I've ever read. I know alot of copywriters who rave about Eugene Schwartz's Breakthrough Advertising but... it's been an extremely painful and slow read for me. I've been slowly chipping away at it for over a year now and I'm normally a really fast reader.

Take care,

Mike

Steve Copywriter:

I've been copywriting for years and years and agree that learning it - is all about your own style. For me I studied countless "gurus" and eventually found the ones that "clicked" with my style.

I do agree with "Breakthrough Advertising" - I heard about it 27 years ago, and thought it would truly be - the holy grail to absolute fame and fortune.

It might well be - but it's a very, very tough read.

When it was re-published I was elated - but even after the 7th attempt - I'm still struggling to "get" it.

But when I read Schwartz's Ads - they are just brilliant - and I've swiped many parts over the years and watched my Ad responses rocket up.

I've never found a "guru" who can really "explain" "Breakthrough Advertising" - some talk about "The States of Awareness" reasonably well, some have done charts which are helpful but still extremely complex.

But no one has been able to "teach" it.

One day, I hope someone will somehow analyise everything in the book and miraculously put together a course - which magically explains it all - simply and easily.

But that may never happen - because genius copywriting like Schwartzs' probably can't be "taught" - somehow you have to learn it yourself.

So you keep staggering through the book - and suddenly you have a "moment" and slowly pick up some of the killer techniques.

And when you do - it really hits you - and whatever your writing suddenly gets turbo charged and becomes so much better.

Fortunately in the meantime you can read Caples and still become an excellent and with a bit of practice an outstanding copywriter.

Ugghhh breakthrough advertising was a painful read for me too guys! I didn't understand half of it, though the parts I did understand were very informative and helpful. I definitely plan on reading this book again.

Tested Advertising Methods by John Caples is the next book I'll read.

Thanks

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JasonParker

14 years ago

Sounds like you're studying the theory.

BUT you're not studying winning copy.

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Gary Pettit

14 years ago

Exactly, Jason! The theory is being written by someone who figures they can make more by writing/selling theory than they can writing/selling copy.

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Snow_Predator 14 years ago

Originally Posted by sparkie2260

Exactly, Jason! The theory is being written by someone who figures they can make more by writing/selling theory than they can writing/selling copy.

Damn right! I've lately started to think that I should perhaps stop reading and start dissecting good adds. But where's a good resource for adds that are known to have worked?
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Dan Axelrod

14 years ago

John Carlton's my main "go to" guy. His "Kick Ass Copywriting Secrets of a Marketing Rebel" is what got me off the ground and running. One thing that's really cool about him is he refers you explicitly to books like John Caples "Tested Advertising Methods" (a masterpiece), and other books that could fill in any holes he left out.

Also, JC's "Simple Writing System" is something I'm going through right now that IS a lot more step-by-step, piece-by-piece, if you like that.

Haven't read "Breakthrough Advertising" yet, but heard great things. Will have to check it out.

I also recommend Ray Edwards (different guy from the one on this forum), for a step by step method, he has a site "http://www.webcopywritingexplained.com/more-info.html" with a great course as well.

Seriously though, if you go through John Carlton's "Kick Ass" course, and then read every book he recommends in there (about 5 or so), you will get better.

--Dan

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Snow_Predator

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan Axelrod

John Carlton's my main "go to" guy. His "Kick Ass Copywriting Secrets of a Marketing Rebel" is what got me off the ground and running. One thing that's really cool about him is he refers you explicitly to books like John Caples "Tested Advertising Methods" (a masterpiece), and other books that could fill in any holes he left out.

Also, JC's "Simple Writing System" is something I'm going through right now that IS a lot more step-by-step, piece-by-piece, if you like that.

Haven't read "Breakthrough Advertising" yet, but heard great things. Will have to check it out.

I also recommend Ray Edwards (different guy from the one on this forum), for a step by step method, he has a site "http://www.webcopywritingexplained.com/more-info.html" with a great course as well.

Seriously though, if you go through John Carlton's "Kick Ass" course, and then read every book he recommends in there (about 5 or so), you will get better.

--Dan

Thanks Dan. I've been through JC's Kickass series. I thought it was excellent and very inspiring when I was going through it, some of the ideas he expressed were phenomenal and they actually changed the way I see internet marketing and my potential in the field. An excellent product! But I was no better at copywriting when I finished listening to it. Simple copywriting system was different (boring as HELL to get through btw) - step-by-step, I didn't find it all that helpful.

Now Carlton's recommendation, Breakthrough Advertising WAS helpful, but I need to go over it again to 'get' it all. Twas not an easy read.

Thanks

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Is it me or do today's 'Great' copywriters SUCK at teaching copywriting?

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