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Advice...please

by Kenster
21 replies
Hi all. Been around here for a while but dont venture into this subforum much! Anywho, here's the deal...

Im looking for some sales copy for a membership site sales page. Doesn't need to be long or fancy but just want some solid sales copy to convey our message in a convincing way. So my questions are...

1. I know there is a wide range and will vary by copywriter but if you were to throw out a ballpark number for let's say "above average but below expert" copywriting, what should I expect? I just want ballpark so I dont underpay and get a bad job or overpay. So your best ballpark guess here would be great

2. I've looked in the Warrior For Hire and saw the directory above. Where else can I find a good copywriter...I would actually like a very quick turnaround as we will be opening the doors up tonight for a soft launch. Would be nice to have done within a few days if possible, so maybe this will affect where I should look?

3. Any other advice would be great.



Thanks for your help in advance everybody!
#adviceso #burned
  • Profile picture of the author Stephen Dean
    Above average copy is in the 4 figures, often well in to the 4 figures.

    Getting copy written within days is rare.

    Cheers,
    Stephen Dean
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    • Profile picture of the author copycashvalve
      Originally Posted by Stephen Dean View Post

      Above average copy is in the 4 figures, often well in to the 4 figures.

      Getting copy written within days is rare.

      Cheers,
      Stephen Dean
      Not always the case, when you create an irresistible offer add scarcity and proof you get KILLER copy.

      I am taking a course right now on copywriting and let me tell you that you don't have to be a "world class" copywriter to get good converting results.

      What I've learned so far in this course is that:

      a product priced at 27$ should be half as many words as a product priced at 97$.

      27$ - 700 words
      97$ - 1500 - 2000 words

      What is the price of your product?

      If you want to work with me you won't be paying $$ out of your ears for KILLER copy.
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      • Profile picture of the author Stephen Dean
        Originally Posted by copycashvalve View Post

        Not always the case, when you create an irresistible offer add scarcity and proof you get KILLER copy.

        I am taking a course right now on copywriting and let me tell you that you don't have to be a "world class" copywriter to get good converting results.

        What I've learned so far in this course is that:

        a product priced at 27$ should be half as many words as a product priced at 97$.

        27$ - 700 words
        97$ - 1500 - 2000 words

        What is the price of your product?

        If you want to work with me you won't be paying $$ out of your ears for KILLER copy.
        You don't HAVE to be a "world class" copywriter to get a good conversion rate. But to get them consistently you have to know what you're doing. That comes from experience.

        I'm not sure what course would tell you that a $27 product should be 700 words and a $97 product should be 1500-2000 words. But that's absolutely silly.

        That's not how you decide the length of copy at all.

        These books would do you a better service:

        Amazon.com: Must Have Copywriting Books - Most Halbert Recommended

        Cheers,
        Stephen Dean
        Signature
        Free Coaching WSO: How to finish all your 2013 "Goals" in JANUARY with my proven productivity secrets - taken from 9 years working as a freelance copywriter. Click Here

        Occupation: Best Copywriter Ever.
        Clients:         Matt Bacak, Jim Edwards, Ryan Deiss and more.
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        • Profile picture of the author copycashvalve
          Originally Posted by Stephen Dean View Post

          You don't HAVE to be a "world class" copywriter to get a good conversion rate. But to get them consistently you have to know what you're doing. That comes from experience.

          I'm not sure what course would tell you that a $27 product should be 700 words and a $97 product should be 1500-2000 words. But that's absolutely silly.

          That's not how you decide the length of copy at all.

          These books would do you a better service:

          Cheers,
          Stephen Dean

          It's not silly, to a busy small business owner that can't afford your above average copy @ more than 4,000$. (not @ op)

          It's about the offer man, you know this, you're a master copywriter.

          He isn't trying to sell eye glasses to blind people. He just wants good converting traffic and it's silly for you to think a small business owner would pay more than 4,000 on copy for a "simple" membership site (not @ op). Unless of course your competing against HUGE dating sites or much bigger markets with much larger budgets for advertising.

          And the numbers I came up with are from hard empirical evidence that many offers have been verified against, so without knowing the facts, your basing your opinion off of your own subjections.
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          • Profile picture of the author Stephen Dean
            Originally Posted by copycashvalve View Post

            It's not silly, to a busy small business owner that can't afford your above average copy @ more than 4,000$. (not @ op)

            It's about the offer man, you know this, you're a master copywriter.

            He isn't trying to sell eye glasses to blind people. He just wants good converting traffic and it's silly for you to think a small business owner would pay more than 4,000 on copy for a "simple" membership site (not @ op). Unless of course your competing against HUGE dating sites or much bigger markets with much larger budgets for advertising.

            And the numbers I came up with are from hard empirical evidence that many offers have been verified against, so without knowing the facts, your basing your opinion off of your own subjections.
            You're confused. I didn't say anything about $4,000.

            Second, why are you saying "it's about the offer man, you know this" when discussing a ballpark figure for copywriters?

            Third, hard empirical evidence does suggest small businesses pay $4,000 or more on copy for a simple membership site. It happens all the time, and I know that from experience.

            Fourth, please share which copywriting course told you a $27 product should have ad copy with 700 words.

            Cheers,
            Stephen Dean
            Signature
            Free Coaching WSO: How to finish all your 2013 "Goals" in JANUARY with my proven productivity secrets - taken from 9 years working as a freelance copywriter. Click Here

            Occupation: Best Copywriter Ever.
            Clients:             Matt Bacak, Jim Edwards, Ryan Deiss and more.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kenster
    Thanks Stephen!
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    • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
      Kenster,

      You can probably find several copywriters willing to write your sales page around here for $1,000 to $2,000. But that does not mean it will convert. There are several factors.

      The more you are willing to pay, the greater your chances (and expectations) that the sales page will convert. The folks who get paid more, know there is commensurate accountability to deliver.

      But even still, there are no guarantees, other than best efforts.

      - Rick Duris
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Hooper-Kelly
    Hi Kenster,

    2. I've looked in the Warrior For Hire and saw the directory above. Where else can I find a good copywriter.
    Doesn't seem like you've checked out the Warrior Special Offers Forum.

    You can sometimes strike lucky with good copywriters offering a limited special deal.

    Warmest regards,

    Paul
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    If you want to stack the copywriting deck in your favor with tricks and hacks producing winners like: "$20K in three days" "650 sold" "30% conversion", then you might like to know I'm retiring and will spill the beans to two people. More info here.
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  • Profile picture of the author copycashvalve
    I guess what you consider silly, other people have been having great success with. I know your a master copywriter and I'm not one... I just know what has done well for others. Implementing what they have taught me very soon to see for myself and if it's silly or not.
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    • Profile picture of the author Stephen Dean
      Originally Posted by copycashvalve View Post

      I guess what you consider silly, other people have been having great success with. I know your a master copywriter and I'm not one... I just know what has done well for others. Implementing what they have taught me very soon to see for myself and if it's silly or not.
      Who has had success with it? What copywriting course?
      Signature
      Free Coaching WSO: How to finish all your 2013 "Goals" in JANUARY with my proven productivity secrets - taken from 9 years working as a freelance copywriter. Click Here

      Occupation: Best Copywriter Ever.
      Clients:       Matt Bacak, Jim Edwards, Ryan Deiss and more.
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  • Profile picture of the author copycashvalve
    I really hate to start off on the wrong foot. I will have this be a lesson learned that there are many different hats to wear in the copywriting world. I'd rather not discuss any further because I fear my ignorance in copy may have got the best of me. If you would like to speak privately about the course I am available.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Hooper-Kelly
      Hi copycashvalve,

      I agree wholeheartedly with Stephen: never set an artificial, pre-determined limit on the number of words in a sales letter.

      Unlike a face to face situation, you don't get feedback from the prospect. So it's not possible to vary your script to just cover the points raised in that particular situation.

      Instead, you have to think of every possible objection the prospect might raise and then answer them in a convincing way, providing solid proof wherever possible.

      And the number of objections will vary according to the type of product - not the selling price.

      So, if your copywriting course has told you to fix your length to the price of the product, I suggest you take every suggestion they make with - not just a pinch - but a TRUCK LOAD of salt.

      Warmest regards,

      Paul
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      If you want to stack the copywriting deck in your favor with tricks and hacks producing winners like: "$20K in three days" "650 sold" "30% conversion", then you might like to know I'm retiring and will spill the beans to two people. More info here.
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  • Profile picture of the author copycashvalve
    Thanks Paul. Both of you make a lot of sense. I was referring to low ticket items, not directed @ OP.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Hooper-Kelly
      Hi cashcopyvalve,

      Glad the advice was helpful. But, allow me to re-emphasize the point ...

      The length of the sales letter will be whatever is necessary to properly answer every possible objection, regardless of the product price.

      Hardly ever is the price the sole - or even the major - consideration.

      They may see a truckload of testimonials and still think, "Okay, so it works for Billy Bob ... but how do I know it will work for me?"

      And that objection must be answered properly, regardless of whether your selling price is $17 or $397.

      Yes, your prospect will naturally be more willing to take more of a chance on losing 17 bucks than he would at $397 - but nobody buys products JUST because they are CHEAP.

      Don't believe me? Then try this ...

      Take a good handfull of ten dollar bills down to your local shopping mall.

      Stand there in a prominent place and see how many takers you get if you try and sell each ten dollar bill for ONE dollar.

      No need to explain anything (answer objections) of course, because this is such an obvious bargain.

      But I bet you a dollar to a donut you will have to answer objections, even with such an obvious value (AND rock bottom price).

      And if you sell 20 ten dollar bills - costing you $180 - you will never again buy such real world marketing experience for so little.

      You'll also discover another aspect of copywriting: 'The reason why' . But that's another story.

      Warmest regards,

      Paul
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      If you want to stack the copywriting deck in your favor with tricks and hacks producing winners like: "$20K in three days" "650 sold" "30% conversion", then you might like to know I'm retiring and will spill the beans to two people. More info here.
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  • Profile picture of the author copycashvalve
    This is why I love this forum, really great advice from super bright people. I'm learning a lot and love to help where I can.

    I think it really depends what market we are in and how irrationally compassionate our prospects are.

    Some markets will need more words per ad, some less?

    Is that not fair to say?

    Thank you
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Hooper-Kelly
      Hi cashcopyvalve,

      Yes, I will agree that some MARKETS throw up more objections that others, which means the length of your sales letter will vary in order to answer these objections.

      One of the markets I write for is the alternative health market. And here it's important not only to cover every objection to convince the prospect to abandon their child-like faith in the medical profession and use their own common sense.

      Therefore it's necessary to provide above average proof - both in the form of user testimonials and respected peer-reviewed medical journals and reports from highly respected sources, such as universities.

      And when selling by direct mail in this market it's not unusual to have a sales letter in the form of a 24 plus pages booklet style (known in the DM trade as a 'magalog').

      By contrast, the internet marketing niche would need less content - particularly if the letter was from a well known marketer.

      But none of that has anything to do with the price.

      Warmest regards,

      Paul
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      If you want to stack the copywriting deck in your favor with tricks and hacks producing winners like: "$20K in three days" "650 sold" "30% conversion", then you might like to know I'm retiring and will spill the beans to two people. More info here.
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  • Profile picture of the author kalens99
    The Internet marketing firm I work with typically looks at about $18 for a 500 word article, which translates to almost $20 an hour. Of course, we have a large staff with a lot of freelancers who are willing to go along with this and we really charge per project not per hour (lower rates per project encourage workers to become efficient without sacrificing quality). If we had a different structure we would probably go for at least $25 an hour so it is difficult to say but I would say between $20-$30 an hour may be fair.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Hooper-Kelly
      Hi Kalen,

      I hate to rain on your parade, but ...

      Im looking for some sales copy for a membership site sales page.
      ... kenster is looking for sales copy writing.

      That's entirely different from writing articles.

      You might like to check out this post for a more detailed explanation of the difference.

      http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...le-writer.html

      Warmest regards,

      Paul
      Signature
      If you want to stack the copywriting deck in your favor with tricks and hacks producing winners like: "$20K in three days" "650 sold" "30% conversion", then you might like to know I'm retiring and will spill the beans to two people. More info here.
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    • Profile picture of the author copycashvalve
      Originally Posted by kalens99 View Post

      The Internet marketing firm I work with typically looks at about $18 for a 500 word article, which translates to almost $20 an hour. Of course, we have a large staff with a lot of freelancers who are willing to go along with this and we really charge per project not per hour (lower rates per project encourage workers to become efficient without sacrificing quality). If we had a different structure we would probably go for at least $25 an hour so it is difficult to say but I would say between $20-$30 an hour may be fair.
      stop trading hours for dollars and learn copywriting


      paul is right
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  • Profile picture of the author Hank Rearden
    Wow, cashvalve just swallowed a double dose of humble...

    You've got a more understanding heart than I do, man. I could learn a thing or two from you :-)

    As for OP - Pay a percent. 10-12% of net revenue. Large enough to attract both the wolves and the dogs.

    You won't pay money you don't have... you can A/B split test for winners... and you won't be scared of paying a measly $4,000.00 for a letter that could make you a few hundred grand.

    - HR
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    another man to live for mine.
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