Copywriting in an office

28 replies
My friend got a job copywriting for an advertising agency. He writes ideas to sell products, mostly for tv and radio. He gets paid quite handsomely but still by the contract. He is considered freelance.

I think writing for tv, radio, magazines interests me more than internet marketing. I'm just not excited to hustle on elance or odesk. I want to write where the money is.

Do these jobs still exist? Where do I start?

I do have published work in a few newspapers and websites.
#copywriting #office
  • Profile picture of the author Ross James
    If you REALLY think you're ready.

    Do this now, not tomorrow, right now.

    Hit up clickbank.com, find a really lousy sales letter that you know you could do a bang-up job on, try to pick something your familiar with.

    Write the sales letter out and email the owner of the product and say:

    I am a copywriter looking to garner some new clients, I wrote a new sales letter for your product that I know will increase your conversions and make you more money.

    I will give you this letter to split test and when it does make you more money, I ask that you kindly refer me new work and invite me to work with you in the future. If you feel like I wasted your time and I didn't increase your conversions, I will quietly and promptly put $100 of my own money directly into your paypal account.

    Best,

    Your Name


    ---

    Just make sure you are 100% positive you've picked a product that you know will make sales and a letter that you know you can do a better job with.

    Oh also, put $100 aside just in case.

    All The best,

    Ross
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  • Profile picture of the author Ross James
    One more thing, this should create referrals for you and a lot of work and there is no better form of advertising than "word-of-mouth".

    Best,

    Ross
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  • Profile picture of the author Ross James
    Hi Ken,

    He doesn't have to take my advice, but he said he wanted to write where the money is. I can't change the direction of the wind for him, but I can certainly help him set his sails to where the money is.

    Again, just trying to help.

    Best,

    Ross
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    • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
      Originally Posted by Ross James View Post

      Hi Ken,

      He doesn't have to take my advice, but he said he wanted to write where the money is. I can't change the direction of the wind for him, but I can certainly help him set his sails to where the money is.

      Again, just trying to help.

      Best,

      Ross
      Ross, great advice, but as already pointed out, what this chap is looking for is a break into an advertising agency (working on a more official basis.)

      Unfortunately, I can't offer advice in that area, but I'd suggest the obvious route...

      Approach local agencies... and see if you can be "put on trial."

      Of course, you'll need to take an impressive portfolio with you, preferably with results of your work.

      I will say one thing though... be very clear about your services/skills.

      Many advertising agencies may not be looking for direct response writers... so if your portfolio is jammed with long form sales letters (for example) they might not see you as a good fit.

      Although, that's speculative, as the ability to write a good advert - long, short, direct, TV, or otherwise - shows universal skills and understanding of advertising.

      Good luck!
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    • Profile picture of the author Collette
      Sebastion - Entry-level agency copywriting jobs are out there, but they are few and far between. And, if you're truly entry-level, you're not going to be paid much, if at all.

      To get a toe in the door of any agency, you'll need a spec advertising portfolio to show the creative director. That means the stories you've had published? Out. Magazine bylines? Out. Anything other than ad work? Out.

      If you really want to work for an agency, you may have to consider an unpaid internship, first. It's often easier to land an internship with an in-house creative department, rather than an ad agency. If this is the case, then consider doing several internships with different companies to build a stronger book. Then parlay that experience and those contacts into either an actual full-time job, or as a springboard for a freelance career.

      Writing for a living is not for the faint-hearted. Whether you want to work as a freelancer or a full-time employee, you're going to have to hustle to get the job. The majority of well-paid writing work is neither glamorous, nor romantic. Also, if you're freelancing, you HAVE to market yourself.

      And yes, that means "selling". You're going to have to make calls, send resumes, send samples, attend networking events, and deal with a lot of rejection.

      Furthermore, the fact is, whether you're writing for an agency or freelance, you're going to have to deal with clients and their needs. Most clients do not have the budget for art. Especially now, they want their advertising to deliver ROI.

      From your posts, I get the feeling you're ambivalent about writing as a paid career. That's a shame, because you write well. Consider, however, how many well-known writers paid their bills with unglamorous "bread-and-butter" writing, while working on the kind of writing they became famous for.

      There are many fields where the ability to write well is an asset. Copywriting is just one of them. And rather than ask yourself where you're going to be when you're 60, I'd suggest asking yourself what you hope to have done with your life by the time you're 60.

      My suggestion: Make yourself a bucket list. Look at your list, and see where your writing talent can help you achieve your goals. You should then be able to easily see if a career as a copywriter is right for you.
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      • Profile picture of the author 247Copywriter
        With no direct experience and zero copywriting skills, no agency in their right mind is going to take him on - period.

        There's plenty of highly skilled people in the job market right now looking for a job and they at least have a portfolio.

        What advertising agency is going to take the risk by taking on a complete newbie, who requires a lot of hand holding from the start?

        There's no way it's going to happen. It's a pipe dream.

        Sorry but it's true.

        It's just the way it is.
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        Mark@IMCopywriting.com
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        • Profile picture of the author Sebastion
          Thanks I really appreciate all the information and advice.

          An ad agency vs freelance internet marketing or niche focused work. There are just so many options! I do have an issue with ambivalence.

          I think I'll start small and do the exercise where I re-write a sales letter. In fact I have some on my hard drive I will post for review in the future.

          This is what I know. I have an idea what my lifestyle should look like.

          $50,000 a year.
          Freedom to travel
          Set my own hours
          Free time for creative pursuits

          I just need to narrow it down.

          All this advice is really, really helpful. I'm glad I found this place.

          I'm gonna go write something now!
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          • Profile picture of the author 247Copywriter
            Originally Posted by Sebastion View Post

            This is what I know. I have an idea what my lifestyle should look like.

            $50,000 a year.
            Freedom to travel
            Set my own hours
            Free time for creative pursuits
            It's not about Sebastion in copywriting. It's about what you can do to improve the life of your clients.

            You need to stop focusing on what you want all the time and give clients what they need.
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            Mark@IMCopywriting.com
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        • Profile picture of the author CopyAcolyte
          Originally Posted by 247Copywriter View Post

          With no direct experience and zero copywriting skills, no agency in their right mind is going to take him on - period.

          There's plenty of highly skilled people in the job market right now looking for a job and they at least have a portfolio.

          What advertising agency is going to take the risk by taking on a complete newbie, who requires a lot of hand holding from the start?

          There's no way it's going to happen. It's a pipe dream.

          Sorry but it's true.

          It's just the way it is.
          I posted a similar thread regarding this topic, and my question to you is what do you suggest we newbies do?

          I'm guessing we essentially just work hard on creating a rock-solid, diversified portfolio and go out and market yourself and what you can do for ad agencies or clients on a freelance basis with evidence (portfolio). Your portfolio is your keystone and calling card from which you draw all your pitching energy. Am I wrong?

          And I stress "diversified" because I don't want to do just internet direct marketing or brand advertising, I want to do it all, and I want to show prospective employers or clients that I have a firm grasp over all forms of persuasion.

          Any comments?
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          • Profile picture of the author 247Copywriter
            They'll want to see results.

            It's as simple as that.
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            • Profile picture of the author ARSuarez
              Originally Posted by 247Copywriter View Post

              They'll want to see results.

              It's as simple as that.
              Here is a simple strategy to get results and build your portfolio:

              Go to Clickbank. Find about 20 sellers with piss-poor pages, or pages you could easily improve on.

              Send them an email: "Hey, I'm new. And I'm trying to get some experience. I have a few suggestions which could vastly improve your conversions. I'd like to give them to you free, in exchange for a testimonial if you see improved results because of my suggestions."

              You'll be amazed how many sellers are wishing this would happen to them.

              Most of the time, if the copy is decent and they are converting well already, a simple headline suggestion will land you the testimonial.

              And BAM! Now you've got credibility.

              Regards,

              Angel

              PS. I just did this recently to see how valid the strategy is. Still works.
              You can even land a client this way.
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              • Profile picture of the author 247Copywriter
                Originally Posted by ARSuarez View Post

                Here is a simple strategy to get results and build your portfolio:

                Go to Clickbank. Find about 20 sellers with piss-poor pages, or pages you could easily improve on.

                Send them an email: "Hey, I'm new. And I'm trying to get some experience.


                Angel
                Thanks Angel but I'm not new to this game, far from it.
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                • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
                  Originally Posted by 247Copywriter View Post

                  With no direct experience and zero copywriting skills, no agency in their right mind is going to take him on - period.

                  There's plenty of highly skilled people in the job market right now looking for a job and they at least have a portfolio.

                  What advertising agency is going to take the risk by taking on a complete newbie, who requires a lot of hand holding from the start?

                  There's no way it's going to happen. It's a pipe dream.

                  Sorry but it's true.

                  It's just the way it is.
                  Can you verify these claims?

                  Also, how many agencies have you worked for, or applied to work for, in the past 12 months?

                  Sorry to be the assehole here, but if you're gonna piss on someone's dream, make sure you've got a good fire to put out.

                  Many employers actually look for inexperienced, wet behind the ears people who have a strong interest in that field.

                  Why? Because a total fresh face newbie isn't conditioned, doesn't have bad habits, isn't going to bolt out the door once he's got 12 months experience under his belt.

                  I'm not trying to create friction, but please substantiate your claims before bulldozing opinion.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Sebastion
                    I'm actually working on a portfolio and updating my resume now. I've totally stopped watching tv, and started reading ten times more (Also writing). I am going to do this.

                    I'll look into the click bank thing. Looks like good advice.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jess Alexander
                      Good. Keep going. Keep us posted with your successes, and your setbacks.
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                • Profile picture of the author ARSuarez
                  Originally Posted by 247Copywriter View Post

                  Thanks Angel but I'm not new to this game, far from it.
                  Hey Sally,

                  Sorry, it was meant for Sebastion. I should've noted that, but I was trying to expand on your comment.

                  Regards,

                  Angel
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                  • Profile picture of the author 247Copywriter
                    No problem Angel.

                    Nick. Unless it's escaped your attention, we're bang in the middle of a recession and a very bad one at that.

                    Sure, in boom years what you say may be true, but not now.

                    There are more than enough experienced ad people at the moment who are out of work, with a very good track record to their names.

                    An ad agency is far more likely to take on someone with a lot of experience than a completely wet behind the ears, newbie greenhorn who needs hand holding, just to get him or her past the basics.

                    It's all about minimising risk and maximising profits.

                    A newbie, rookie 'copywriter' is a massive risk and the potential for profit is exceedingly low, this is very basic business common sense.

                    There is no point to be served raising false hopes for this individual. It's not about pissing on anyone's enthusiasm... it's just a statement of fact. It is what it is.

                    Whether you agree or not is up to you.

                    He needs a track record first, especially in this economic climate.

                    Hell, I'd like to be a rocket scientist but I highly doubt my enthusiasm or lack of qualifications in this department is going to land me my dream job - no matter how many water rockets I sent up in the air as a kid.

                    There is no point to be gained tickling his ears and giving him false hope at this stage.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
                      Originally Posted by 247Copywriter View Post

                      No problem Angel.

                      Nick. Unless it's escaped your attention, we're bang in the middle of a recession and a very bad one at that.

                      Sure, in boom years what you say may be true, but not now.

                      There are more than enough experienced ad people at the moment who are out of work, with a very good track record to their names.

                      An ad agency is far more likely to take on someone with a lot of experience than a completely wet behind the ears, newbie greenhorn who needs hand holding, just to get him or her past the basics.

                      It's all about minimising risk and maximising profits.

                      A newbie, rookie 'copywriter' is a massive risk and the potential for profit is exceedingly low, this is very basic business common sense.

                      There is no point to be served raising false hopes for this individual. It's not about pissing on anyone's enthusiasm... it's just a statement of fact. It is what it is.

                      Whether you agree or not is up to you.

                      He needs a track record first, especially in this economic climate.

                      Hell, I'd like to be a rocket scientist but I highly doubt my enthusiasm or lack of qualifications in this department is going to land me my dream job - no matter how many water rockets I sent up in the air as a kid.

                      There is no point to be gained tickling his ears and giving him false hope at this stage.
                      I hear you, but...

                      1. Do you think every rookie copywriter gets their foot in the door by writing Clickbank sales letters or other similiar copy?

                      Not all copywriters start that way. Which means that SOME copywriters actually started with agencies... or under the wing of a "goo-roo."

                      2. I'm not disagreeing with the fact that SOME agencies may want experience and a track record and the rest of it. However, many companies take on rookies and train them from scratch. It's far less of a risk than a killer copywriter who has shown every intention and ability to go and work for themselves at the drop of a hat.

                      I suppose it depends on the agency. Some will laugh you out the door, yes, but not all agencies want or need that previous experience.

                      Many success stories come from humble beginnings... the classic tea-boy or tea-girl to director story is more common than you think.

                      In terms of business sense, I think you'd find that A LOT of businesses are open to the idea of hiring someone without any previous background in the business, so they can train them the way they see fit.

                      Especially if they can pay them a very low wage on a temporary basis.

                      That's why I challenged you. Not because you're necessarily wrong, but because you made a flat out, final statement without any specific facts or proof to substantiate it.

                      I know the recession plays a part - but that doesn't mean there's no hope of getting hired, or that advertising agencies are not making a profit anymore.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
    Originally Posted by Sebastion View Post

    I think writing for tv, radio, magazines interests me more than internet marketing. I'm just not excited to hustle on elance or odesk. I want to write where the money is.

    Do these jobs still exist? Where do I start?

    I do have published work in a few newspapers and websites.
    Yes these jobs still exist. You can turn some them up on places like Craigslist or doing a basic Google search. Take your leads and contact them... have a resume and cover letter ready to go when you do.

    But here's the root of the issue from your original post: You need to learn how to market yourself and market yourself with strong effectiveness.

    Because once you really *know* marketing, then you won't have to ask where to find copywriting clients or jobs. You'll ask yourself *how* you want to find them and then go do it.

    The other part is... becoming a strong marketer also allows you to command a higher fee as a copywriter (freelance or in-house) because you are much more valuble to your clients' business.

    Best of luck,

    Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author sakari
    Pitch yourself, for a start. Tell the ad agencies what you can do for them. A friend of mine regaled stories about a copywriter/designer who sent a roll of toilet paper to an agency's CD with the note "I know you need me" or something like that. Make them sit up and pay attention!

    Originally Posted by Sebastion View Post

    My friend got a job copywriting for an advertising agency. He writes ideas to sell products, mostly for tv and radio. He gets paid quite handsomely but still by the contract. He is considered freelance.

    I think writing for tv, radio, magazines interests me more than internet marketing. I'm just not excited to hustle on elance or odesk. I want to write where the money is.

    Do these jobs still exist? Where do I start?

    I do have published work in a few newspapers and websites.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
    Originally Posted by Sebastion View Post

    My friend got a job copywriting for an advertising agency. He writes ideas to sell products, mostly for tv and radio. He gets paid quite handsomely but still by the contract. He is considered freelance.

    I think writing for tv, radio, magazines interests me more than internet marketing. I'm just not excited to hustle on elance or odesk. I want to write where the money is.

    Do these jobs still exist? Where do I start?

    I do have published work in a few newspapers and websites.
    Sebastion,

    If you have no copywriting experience or knowledge, this might interest you... or, at least it should:

    The Gary Halbert Letter
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  • Profile picture of the author Jag82
    In every specialized field we are in...we were green once...
    we were inexperienced once.

    We start right at the bottom of the ladder.

    So freaking what?

    If you have the passion in what you do...and have the burning desire
    to succeed...and learn from the best...you will make it.

    Just do it...dare to make mistakes...keep learning...keep testing
    ...keep doing...and keep doing some more....and opportunities
    will knock on your door.

    Seriously, as fellow professionals here, lets help each other.
    Not knock each other.

    Yes, keeping a reality check is important. But we don't have to
    use it as an "excuse" to be mediocre.

    Often, the most successful people you see are "unrealistic".

    Do you think man can ever fly if they accepted the "reality"
    because we don't have wings like birds do?

    Do you think man can ever reach the moon had they accepted
    "reality" because the moon is so damn far away?


    Gary Bencivenga said it himself he wasn't good
    at copywriting when he first started.

    Like every people who has reached the top, he got great
    at his craft through sheer hard work.

    Did I mention how humble he is as well?

    Many people here need to take a leaf out of Gary Bencivenga's book.

    A man at the pinnacle of the game who is still so respectful
    to everyone regardless of their status.


    Also, we don't have to show we are superior to others by knocking them.

    Even if you are right, what's the point?

    What do you gain by temporary gratification of proving yourself...
    when all you have succeeded at doing is creating resentment?

    You will possibly lose a few good allies along the way.

    You just bring negative vibes to yourself.

    It's a classic case of winning the battle...but losing the war.


    As Zig Ziglar will say, you will get all you want in life if you
    help enough other people get what they want.

    A "newbie" you have helped today could possibly
    return you the favor in multiples in future.

    Play nice. It's not so hard. Really.

    - Jag
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      My friend got a job copywriting for an advertising agency. He writes ideas to sell products, mostly for tv and radio. He gets paid quite handsomely but still by the contract. He is considered freelance.
      What experience does he have - what recommendations did he have - how did he get hired for the job? What work did he do to qualify for this job - and how long did he do it? He's the person you should be asking!

      I don't need to know those answers...you do. Do you have similar experience, recommendations, etc?

      It if is what you want to do - find out what's required and pursue it. Widen your potential to include staff writing positions (paid or independent contractor) that don't pay as well but can provide experience/references so you can move up.

      kay
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  • Profile picture of the author warguru
    Originally Posted by Sebastion View Post

    My friend got a job copywriting for an advertising agency. He writes ideas to sell products, mostly for tv and radio. He gets paid quite handsomely but still by the contract. He is considered freelance.

    I think writing for tv, radio, magazines interests me more than internet marketing. I'm just not excited to hustle on elance or odesk. I want to write where the money is.

    Do these jobs still exist? Where do I start?

    I do have published work in a few newspapers and websites.

    Sebastion, are you talking about direct response advertising, or mainstream branding-type advertising?

    These two are *shockingly* different.

    I should know. I work in a branding-type agency.

    If you want to make it in direct response advertising (Doesn't seem to be the case), then this forum is the place to be. In fact, there's plenty of great advice here in this very thread.

    But if you are looking for work in one of those creative branding-type places like Wieden+Kennedy, CP+B, O&M, Saatchis, etc, then you might want to look at sites like ihaveanidea [dot] org or lifeatthebottom [dot] com.

    Direct response advertising is about results.

    Mainstream advertising (or Madison Avenue advertising, brand advertising, creative advertising etc etc) however, is about this poorly-defined thing known as creativity.

    The following tips only apply if you want to break into mainstream advertising, NOT direct response.

    If you are looking to break into mainstream advertising as a copywriter as a complete newbie, then assemble a portfolio of work that includes:
    - snappy, clever headlines (noticed how I didn't mention effective? Mainstream agencies hardly ever measure effectiveness)
    - creative ideas
    - ability to do integrated work (like the "Best job in the world" campaign or the Old Spice campaign by W+K)
    - ability to think visually
    - work that demonstrates you understand the type of ads favoured by award shows like Cannes, the One Show, D&AD, etc

    Show 7 to 15 pieces of actual/speculative ads in your portfolio.

    If you have award-winning work, show them.

    If you have good/great real work, show them.

    If you have real work that is mediocre/meh/pretty bad, then don't show them. Creative Directors judge you by your worst piece of work.

    If you have great ideas that have not been produced, use a marker and draw a scamp, then include it. (Only if you want to be a copywriter. Aspiring Art Directors should comp it up!)

    Once you have a portfolio, get it through to a Creative Director (or Executive CD, or Chief Creative Officer, or just a plain old Group Head).

    Call them. Conveniently "bump" into them. Send a creative package. Do whatever it takes (legally) to get their attention.

    Make them crit your work.

    If they like you, they'll offer you a job. Or at least an unpaid internship.

    Yes, unpaid. This is what agencies do.

    Now, you have samples of articles, you can throw them in.

    But to Creative Directors of mainstream agencies, such non-advertising work is only good for finding out if you can write.

    Sadly, agencies don't usually look for writers who can write. They are more interested in writers who have "ideas". Especially the integrated kind that wins awards.

    If you need more help, go read Luke Sullivan's 'Hey Whipple, Squeeze This', and Vonk and Kestin's 'Pick Me : Breaking Into Advertising and Staying There'.
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    • Profile picture of the author Collette
      Originally Posted by warguru View Post

      Sebastion, are you talking about direct response advertising, or mainstream branding-type advertising?

      These two are *shockingly* different.

      ....
      Ain't THAT the truth!

      Clickbank letters are not going to get him into a 'award-winning' agency.

      Great "How to Get Your First Agency Job Guide" post.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sebastion
      Thanks for the great response Warguru. A quick question? Why are you here on warriorforum? Are you considering a different avenue?

      I have so much to think about.
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