Seems the real online copywriting secret...sell junk, get rich, repeat, retire

by max5ty
16 replies
I'll be the first to admit that I've had zero experience at taking my copywriting career to the internet.

I've written lots of money making pieces all through offline marketing.

I joined this forum to try and learn from some of you that are successful online - and hopefully start my own thing online more as a challenge to explore the possibilities -

anyways, to make my point - a friend sent me an ebook yesterday from a very prominent copywriting guru - I won't mention his name or the book's name.

The book was 150 pages, and the sales letter to sell the book had several big name gurus giving glowing reviews about the book - the sales letter went into detail about how you were going to learn this big secret to skyrocket your sales, blah, blah, blah - and how this was the biggest secret to come along in decades. A must read.

The first 10 pages was legal info, the next 10 pages were more testimonials, then about 20 pages telling me what I was going to learn, then about 90 pages (all in big print) teasing me about what the big secret was - along with some stories about how a couple companies got successful - same 2 stories I've heard a million times.

When the secret was finally revealed, it was a let down - basically some old time copywriter's theory (same info as a thousand other books, just with a different story).

Got me to thinking that the secret to online copywriting is to write a lot of hype, get some buddies to put their name to it, and then sell thousands of copies - then keep repeating the procedure till I make an online fortune.

I think I'm a professional at hype...

How long will people keep buying this stuff I wonder? Seems some of these gurus have been doing it for awhile now...pumping out book after book of hyped up info, only to leave the reader wondering, "Where's the beef".

Maybe I need to learn more about people's online buying habits.

Does anybody think this is right?

Get in, make a quick buck, then fade off into the sunset?

Hmmm...maybe it's the answer - maybe it's the online copywriter's secret.

Maybe I'm not supposed to mention this "secret" openly?

What's the deal?
#copywriting #junk #online #real #repeat #retire #rich #secretsell
  • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
    Many people in the IM space buy "shiny objects" hoping the latest one will be their ticket to riches.

    Apparently your friend did.

    Educate him... tell him there is no "big secret" in copywriting.

    Alex
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      How many ebooks have you read to base this sweeping condemnation of the industry? I would hope more than the ONE you mention?
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      • Profile picture of the author max5ty
        Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

        How many ebooks have you read to base this sweeping condemnation of the industry? I would hope more than the ONE you mention?
        I've read loads of ebooks - sadly 99% of them seem to be another secret wrapped in a new story.

        What I didn't mention is that I've actually read a couple other ebooks by this same author - each time I was puzzled as to the lack of anything new, and yet he sold boatloads of them each time.

        As I said, maybe that's what makes a good online copywriter - it just amazes me that he gets rave reviews in his testimonials.

        I know someone will say, "Well you bought it". As a copywriter I read a lot of books, courses, etc. just to see what techniques etc. others are using.

        Luckily, I didn't buy this one.

        I've thought about this for awhile, I guess this last one prompted me to blow off some steam.

        Maybe I'm the only one with these feelings - not sure - could just be me.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
          Max,

          I've written six-figure hits for clients in both direct mail and online so I'll speak from my own experiences.

          Here's the short answer: It depends on the niche.

          Some niches respond strongly to aggressive, hype-driven copy. Other niches respond to the aggressive copy by not buying and ripping the "guru" publicly.

          There are core copywriting fundamentals (like how to write bullets) that apply both offline and online. If you can write great bullets for a DM piece, then you already know how to write great bullets for an online salesletter.

          The differences between the media can be subtle and you usually pick them up during your research prior to writing the copy.

          One of the biggest differences is offline you're restricted to a certain number of pages for your direct mail piece (usually b/c of mailing costs)... online there's no page restriction so if you think you need 40 pages to properly sell a product online, then you can write 40 pages worth of sales copy.

          You can also use more graphics, audio, and video online to help make the sale... tools that are harder or outright impossible to use with DM.

          If you have any additional questions, then just hit me with a PM or email and we'll talk.

          Hope that helps,

          Mike

          P.S. As for people buying the hype... biz-opp products have been offered and sold for more than 100 years. I don't expect that to change anytime soon. As the late John Caples once said, "Times change. People don't."
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          • Profile picture of the author max5ty
            Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

            Max,

            Some niches respond strongly to aggressive, hype-driven copy. Other niches respond to the aggressive copy by not buying and ripping the "guru" publicly
            Thanks Mike for your comment.

            I've read your bio on your business success - it's very inspirational.

            Having started 3 brick and mortar businesses myself (1 failure, 1 ok, and 1 very successful), I know there's a huge difference starting one in the real world compared to the internet - the internet seems much more forgiving.

            Maybe that's why I'm more skeptical than most of the gurus who's only business has been that of telling everyone else how to get rich - it seems to work for some though.

            I just thought a lot of times, "Wow, people aren't going to fall for this much longer". But I guess the internet is still growing...and there's always new prospects.

            However, there have been several articles that all seem to be along the lines that a lot of those who thought their online empires were solid, were now wondering how to revive them - more and more of their emails were going unanswered, their products weren't selling like they once were, etc.

            I do think there are a lot of new possibilities for copywriters to find new methods to acclimate to the newer trends - I think less and less people are falling for the old hype.

            Thanks again for the feedback.
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            • Profile picture of the author Cam Connor
              Once you reach a certain level, the ability to sell anything, becomes a reality. As long as there is some basic demand for it. However, a good copywriter knows he/she can make more money selling great products rather than shoddy ones. Why not? As great as copy is, repeat business is free, and that's the way to truly make a successful and steady income online... having a suite of great products and people at all different levels buying them at various prices, upsells are the real money-maker.

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        • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
          Ahh, sounds like you have been caught up by The One Big Secret.

          If you are broke you'll be rich

          If you are fat you'll be skinny

          If you are ugly you'll be sexy

          If you can't get a member of the opposite sex, then I've got one for you.

          Yep, we are all susceptible, to varying degrees, to the allure of somebody else knowing something that we don't...and giving in to our curiosity.

          Doberman Dan goes into more detail here The Power Of The One Big Secret

          Best,
          Ewen
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Originally Posted by max5ty View Post


    The first 10 pages was legal info, the next 10 pages were more testimonials, then about 20 pages telling me what I was going to learn, then about 90 pages (all in big print) teasing me about what the big secret was - along with some stories about how a couple companies got successful - same 2 stories I've heard a million times.
    Some writers do use these tricks to pump up their page counts to justify
    what they are charging for their ebooks. When I wrote my very first ebook
    I was troubled about how short the book was and asked some reviewers
    what they thought about the page count. (The book just showed how
    to get free traffic using a trick I discovered by accident.) Most of the
    reviewers said that people would just want to know the technique
    and wouldn't want to read through a bunch of fluff to get it.

    I tried taking the middle ground. I added some supporting information
    mainly for the newbies and made the trick the main part of the book.
    I never received any complaints about the length of the book.

    Also, the longer you remain in this industry the less "new" things
    you'll meet so some books that may be a knockout for newbies
    would be a waste of time for you.

    -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author John_S
    I'll be the first to admit that I've had zero experience at taking my copywriting career to the internet.

    I've written lots of money making pieces all through offline marketing.
    You sound like me, a long while back. Want a big idea, right here, right now? Okay, I've got some throwaways.

    One of my offline efforts was a problem with a multi-step -- response card to information packet. I got called in right after the company brought its response time, from getting the card to the target getting the second step, to ten days. You could tell they were very proud of themselves.

    Increased response a whopping fraction of a percent. (I can't recall the fraction, however).

    So, I took a look at the mailing. If wasn't a bad mailing, a control piece. So I asked the woman running their data entry department what happened after they got a card with the responder's handwritten address on it.

    She told me they throw them out.

    First test was stapling the response card to the front of the sales letter -- the side the responder filled out facing out. Doubled response. Without me writing one syllable of copy at that point.

    Want a grabber? Try the reader's own hand written request.

    They were throwing out the information packet without understanding they requested it. Naturally the next step was redesigning the mailer so it looked like an information response packet.

    That's not the big idea. What is the big idea is taking that idea and applying it to, for example, a newsletter opt-in response sequence online. And that is also possible, because I've done that.

    I am not thrilled with it online, but it does work.

    The big idea is -- in all the "too cool for school" attitude -- nobody takes one darned thing from offline. They are all trying to reinvent the wheel. Because the web changes everything as a tagline is so darned cool.

    Finally, the only big idea is that there are no big ideas. Especially online, it's an ecosystem -- three dozen or so small ideas -- all working together, all multiplying the effectiveness of the others.
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  • Profile picture of the author Samuel Mitaro
    Here's my theory, and many will no doubt disagree.

    I anticipate a growing skepticism of false claims online. Info products won't die, but I think people will get the memo and start looking for better products that actually deliver value.

    But, regardless of whether or not this change happens, I don't think that kind of marketing is viable or sustainable. Return customers? Forget it.

    Again, that's just my theory. I realize that I am up against thousands of rich IM gurus. So be it.
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  • Profile picture of the author John_S
    I anticipate a growing skepticism of false claims online.
    Wow. Two big ideas in one thread. I do not expect this so-called growing skepticism.

    Why? I'd like to introduce you to the real force driving these numbers: Greater Fool Theory. In essence, "If I like this a little bit, I bet the morons online will fall for this, hook, like and sinker."

    What I am saying is, the numbers aren't changing as you would expect from growing skepticism. I suspect the idea is "there's a fool born every minute." People do not buy because they are convinced.

    They are convinced others are stupid enough to buy. Skepticism changed into cynicism while you weren't looking. That's how late in the game this is. It is 2011 people.

    Purchase a clue.


    Related:

    Greater Fool Theory is driving the sales people attribute to other reasons. Rest assured.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Sorrell
      Originally Posted by John_S View Post

      Wow. Two big ideas in one thread. I do not expect this so-called growing skepticism.

      Why? I'd like to introduce you to the real force driving these numbers: Greater Fool Theory. In essence, "If I like this a little bit, I bet the morons online will fall for this, hook, like and sinker."

      What I am saying is, the numbers aren't changing as you would expect from growing skepticism. I suspect the idea is "there's a fool born every minute." People do not buy because they are convinced.

      They are convinced others are stupid enough to buy. Skepticism changed into cynicism while you weren't looking. That's how late in the game this is. It is 2011 people.

      Purchase a clue.


      Related:

      Greater Fool Theory is driving the sales people attribute to other reasons. Rest assured.
      Yup, that pretty much sums it up. For every person who drops out of the info product 'buying loop', there's 10 wide eyed, gullible as you like dreamers who will fall for it month after month. And that funny little crew who continually hit the top 10 on clickbank with the latest proof of the 'greater fool theory' understand this all too well.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
        Your best and most effective approach in the long run is to create a quality product that helps your customers.

        When you create a quality product and have a list of good customers, they will buy more from you. Your additional sales to your list is your true source of wealth and financial freedom.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    For the most part, the "making money" market, no matter the niche, is full of "infojunkie" buyers.

    They'll believe anything because they want to believe. And the mindset is like a lotto ticket buyer... "This could be my 'ticket', but if not, I'll buy another"...

    And people pump out crap to sell to them because they're rabid buyers.

    I'm constantly amazed at the junk that passes across my desk under the guise of a "valuable product" (which I always pass on).

    Easy market? Yes.

    Long term market with many repeat buyers if you're selling crap? No.

    And what's tough is there ARE great products out there, I personally buy products all of the time, and most of the time it's from people I've learned from and have bought from before.

    Can you make a fortune selling snake oil? Definitely.

    Will karma bite you in the ass? Ask Don Lapri.

    Is it easier to sell quality products that really help people, build a long term customer base of repeat buyers, SMART buyers who want to "learn" and aren't buying into a get rich quick scheme? That's your choice.

    It's an easy one for me.

    If I rip people off, I can't sleep at night, they won't buy from me again, and karma will probably kick my ass.

    If I genuinely over-deliver, genuinely help people, they'll buy from me over and over again and I can feel good about what I'm selling.

    Food for thought.

    Sources: 200+ sales letters, plenty of affiliate promotions and plenty of my own products over the last few years.

    -Scott
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    Over $30 Million In Marketing Data And A Decade Of Consistently Generating Breakthrough Results - Ask How My Unique Approach To Copy Typically Outsells Traditional Ads By Up To 29x Or More...

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  • Profile picture of the author methomas
    Scott, I am totally with you. And I sleep good at night without worrying about karma.

    I have a simple solution to bad or hyped up products.
    I don't buy anything without a money back guarantee.
    And if it don't live up to the the sales copy, I get a refund.
    And I do get a lot of refunds for junk!

    M E
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  • Profile picture of the author DougHughes
    I'm with Scott,

    People want to believe and there are infojunkies who will buy anything.

    But...even if the content is good, what did you expect? Selling is selling, in print, in person, etc... there's only so many tricks and triggers in existence.

    Perhaps the secret was the advanced selling strategy of the book itself.

    Dan Kennedy describes exactly this type of book in "Influential Writing." This is the book slash sales letter reinforcing the authority of the author...or a branding strategy.

    Many people go for this and discover the pearl amidst the pitch. Other people...you perhaps...do not.

    And, for that I also say that Pyschologist and persuasion guru Kevin Hogan talks about both categories of people...skeptics and suckers. Do either have an advantage or disadvantage?

    Yes, both - this is a matter of parallax and perspective. The value is dependent on the perceiver.

    Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing.
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