Why You Can Be A Walking Encyclopedia of Copywriting Knowledge and STILL Not "Get It?"

revstan

12 years ago

I think persons can be taught to act empathetic, not to be empathetic.

That goes for all things like that.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5587914].message }}

NickN

12 years ago

Originally Posted by JasonParker

Been thinking about something lately...

I'm not making a statement or anything...

I just thought it would be an interesting thought to share with you...

You learn to write ads using tactics that you learn with your left brain, your logical, conscious side.

Yet you can't write anything that moves anybody using your left brain, your emotional side.

So although copywriting can be taught, it really can't be taught.

You can be told to feel but you can't be taught HOW to feel.

You can be told to be empathetic but you can't be taught how to be empathetic.

How can you REALLY be taught to get into your "right brain mode" and write emotionally stirring ads?

I think it's something that has to hit you suddenly like a ton of bricks... That all that matters is how the prospect is feeling when you write something.

It's like when someone says, "Hey, is this a good headline?"

How the heck am I supposed to know? Because I'm not the target market with the emotions that already reside in me that the headline is supposed to connect with.

That's why you have to test everything. Because, honestly, who really knows what is and isn't going to work? Nobody... except for the audience you're writing to.

Thanks

Signature

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5587993].message }}

Steve Hill

12 years ago

That's a good point, and it seems to be one of the key abilities that separates good copywriters from great copywriters.

I've seen it mentioned in various books and publications, and the answer seems to be: exhaustive customer research.

For example, let's say a client wants to sell a book about how to get along with a surly teenage family member. I'm not the parent of a rebellious teenager that's suddenly raising hell and being argumentative, but with research (even something as simple as reading Amazon reviews of similar products), it's possible to determine a lot of the key emotional hot buttons, fears, and empathy points that could be used to appeal to that particular type of buyer.

You're right, unless you've been down that particular road, you won't have any directly applicable experience, but that's not to say you can't get into their mindset with some research.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Learn more - earn more: Books for Copywriters

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5588105].message }}

RickDuris 12 years ago

Your point is EXTREMELY insightful and "on the money." - Rick Duris
- Thanks
- 1 reply
Signature
CopyRanger.com
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5588808].message }}
- The Marketeer 12 years ago
  
  You've made some valid points there.
  
  Of course, imagining what the prospect you're trying to connect with is feeling is not the same as feeling what the prospect is actually feeling. (say that really fast)
  
  However, if you're writing copy for a client, they'd ideally have alot of personal experience with their product and most likely have experienced the frustrations of their target market. There are exceptions of course.
  
  There are other ways of getting this info just by asking the right people.
  
  P.S. You don't have to figure it all out by yourself.
  
  Thanks
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5588945].message }}

1luckyman

12 years ago

I agree - you cannot learn to write copy - you can only write copy and learn.

There are two modes for me, one detached and slightly above the subject as imagined and internalised and one more calculating like a salesman stronger and more dominant in the animal sense.

Do others here feel a difference in who you are when writing copy?

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5589026].message }}

Mark Pescetti

12 years ago

Writing copy is almost a holographic experience...

...You have to imagine yourself in the shoes of the people you're selling to so acutely that you virtually transcend time and space.

I know, intense sh!t.

And you're right, nobody REALLY has any idea what a market will respond to en masse... or NOT...

...But that's what makes it so much fun, isn't it?

For instance...

I've been working on various projects that are targeting different women.

It turns out that after writing tons and tons of copy... that a few lines and custom graphics (with the products animated in them) worked WAY more effectively.

The point is...

You have to stay unattached from how you think your copy should perform...

...AND CONSTANTLY ADJUST!

Likewise...

It's possible to ride that holographic wave of imagining what your target audience will respond to so perfectly that you NAIL your copy on the first go and everybody's happy!

You're right... you NEVER know.

Not really.

Mark

[ 3 ] Thanks

Signature

Do you want a 9 figure copywriter and biz owner to Write With You? I'll work with you, on zoom, to help write your copy or client copy... while you learn from one of the few copywriters to legit hit 9 figures in gross sales! Discover More

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5589420].message }}

AdwordsMogul

12 years ago

Look, there is only one way to REALLY get copywriting. Put your money on the line and sell something.

Pay for an ad, or run your own campaign or something. Without the real risk you'll never be the best you can be.

[ 1 ] Thanks

Signature

"Those who can - DO IT. Those who can't, say it's impossible."
Jean Paul a.k.a AdwordsMogul
PHPDevelopers.net - Top of the range PHP developers

⇉ Easy Link Saver - Are you tired of the pain of constantly searching for your affiliate links? ( Chrome extension - FREE )

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5589541].message }}

eshapard

12 years ago

You're basically saying that copywriting can't be taught. I disagree. However, plenty of people can do something but don't understand WHAT they do well enough to teach it. If you really know how to push emotional buttons, you can teach someone else how. If you only have an intuitive understanding, you can't.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

[FREE WSO] See how I get my site indexed in less than an hour!

Easiest way to make money online
[New WSO] Amazon Ape System - Make money through Amazon with no website promotion. Not affiliate sales
Internet Marketing Monkey

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5590494].message }}

1luckyman 12 years ago

Well I guess you're both right (Jason and eshapard) - but there are two variables. The clarity and technique of the teacher and the apititude and attitude of the pupil. The best teacher working with a gifted pupil can probably pass the necessary insights on. But when it comes right down to it the pupil still has to get it - and there's a moment of magic which takes place in the comprehension of the student which the teacher can aim for and prime but does not and cannot deliver.
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5594913].message }}

angiecolee

12 years ago

For me the true test is in the editing.

I get what you're saying though. I can almost feel my brain physically changing gears. I often try to write first drafts and notes as if I'm the one with the problem imagining my ideal solution. Then I let it sit and let the logical, analytical side tell me if my thoughts hold water. It's worked well for me so far.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5591550].message }}

Grain 12 years ago

You're probably right.

If you haven't realized yet...

...It's similar to everything we do. Let me explain...

Sports scientists study the trajectory of Tiger Woods'
golf swing AND they understand the physics...

... BUT if you force them to swing a golf club in front
of you right now...

It's impossible for them to do a Tiger Woods.

What I mean to say is...

... In everything we do, there's an analysis side, and a
*doing* side.

Analysis is definitely needed - it's the same as giving
yourself the basic nutrients for nourishing.

Doing is a different animal.

Analysis AND Doing are both inseparable.

Lose one of them...

And you'll be an animal without vital organs.

Blind, hurt, deaf and gone.

-Grain
- Thanks
Signature

Kind Regards,
Grain.
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5592870].message }}

jeffreymor

12 years ago

Interesting stuff.

You're always told that sincerity is at the heart of good copywriting.

But how does a man write about problems that only women experience?

Or a young, healthy writer create copy that really resonates with an older man suffering from arthritis?

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5597386].message }}

Steve Hill

12 years ago

Originally Posted by jeffreymor

Interesting stuff.

You're always told that sincerity is at the heart of good copywriting.

But how does a man write about problems that only women experience?

Or a young, healthy writer create copy that really resonates with an older man suffering from arthritis?

The answer is: research.

Women react to things differently than men, and it takes a different style of writing to appeal to them. Research will show how (and why).

An older man suffering from arthritis will have certain feelings, triggers, outlooks, and reactions based on his age bracket and his medical condition. Research will identify those, and provide guidelines on how to establish a rapport with that particular demographic.

Testing is always needed, of course, but solid research will get things going in the right direction. Trying to guess is like throwing darts blindfolded - one might get lucky once in a while, but overall results will be inconsistent.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Learn more - earn more: Books for Copywriters

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5597478].message }}

jeffreymor 12 years ago

Sounds rather like method acting.

[QUOTE=Steve Hill;5597478]The answer is: research.

Women react to things differently than men, and it takes a different style of writing to appeal to them. Research will show how (and why).

An older man suffering from arthritis will have certain feelings, triggers, outlooks, and reactions based on his age bracket and his medical condition. Research will identify those, and provide guidelines on how to establish a rapport with that particular demographic.
- Thanks
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5605595].message }}

dogstar

12 years ago

The way you do it is to go at solving how to say what you want to say in the best possible way you can think up. Really try to speak in the right voice, talk their language and all that...all thinking and intellectual. Do it until you think you've solved it and then, put it aside. Let your subconscious work on it and wait for a sudden inspiration. Its kind of like putting stuff in a pot for stew and letting it cook. You will know when you got a "big" idea when you yourself get excited by the unexpected insight and point of view that pops up from seemingly nowhere. Done it my whole career. Take a look at a little book titled "A Technique for Producing Ideas" by James Webb Young. You'll thank me for the tip

Thanks

Signature

Truth About Marketing

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5597419].message }}

Michael Newman

12 years ago

Simple, yet profound point. Intriguing. As someone pointed out, the analytical and the emotional(more authentic dimension) cannot be separated. I agree the analytical is a tad limited, because we're dealing with human beings (who are primarily emotional). Thanks for sharing this.

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5598156].message }}

paolo83 12 years ago

A few very interesting points have been raised in this thread, though here is the bottom line for me

copywriting is a skill and just like any other skill it can be learnt.

Notice i said it can be learnt. If the teaching is sound and solid then it is really up to the student to take it and apply it at it's best.

It may take some time to get it and maybe a lifetime to really get it and master this skill, but ain't this the beauty of the journey??
- Thanks
Signature
[B]Are still struggling building your online business?
It's not rocket science, build it, launch it, profit!
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5599889].message }}

sethczerepak

12 years ago

When I was studying music at USF, a guest lecturer told us that learning music was like learning a foreign language. Some people had it in their blood and some didn't. Those who didn't could learn, but they'd never quite get that polished sound. They'd "always speak music with an accent." I think it's the same thing with copywriting.

Thanks

Signature

See My Copywriting Portfolio and Testimonials

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5608454].message }}

max5ty

12 years ago

Good copywriters are born.

I know there are some who disagree...then again I've read some of their work...it falls into the sleep aid section at the drugstore.

The guru's wanting to fatten their bank accounts told everyone who bought their courses they'd be rolling in the dough.

Born copywriters can better their skills with experience...but most can read every book and take every course there is and still not get the concept.

Thanks
1 reply

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5608859].message }}

AdwordsMogul

12 years ago

Originally Posted by max5ty

..
The guru's wanting to fatten their bank accounts told everyone who bought their courses they'd be rolling in the dough.

...

And the gurus said the truth - as long as you apply the knowledge you learn you will make as much money as you put your mind to.

Most people think reading is learning. You don't even have to be that good to make more than enough money.

The thing is, you can watch an exercise tape and know everything about building muscle.

But you will only get the muscle if you lift the damn weights, and eat the right food.

It's the same with copywriting.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

"Those who can - DO IT. Those who can't, say it's impossible."
Jean Paul a.k.a AdwordsMogul
PHPDevelopers.net - Top of the range PHP developers

⇉ Easy Link Saver - Are you tired of the pain of constantly searching for your affiliate links? ( Chrome extension - FREE )

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5620089].message }}

max5ty

12 years ago

Originally Posted by AdwordsMogul

And the gurus said the truth - as long as you apply the knowledge you learn you will make as much money as you put your mind to.

Most people think reading is learning. You don't even have to be that good to make more than enough money.

The thing is, you can watch an exercise tape and know everything about building muscle.

But you will only get the muscle if you lift the damn weights, and eat the right food.

It's the same with copywriting.

Well my friend, here are my thoughts.

After having been a sales trainer for some of the largest companies...and having had experience in sales, as well as with a lot of salespeople...

One can say anyone with the proper training can be a salesman.

I agree...just like saying anyone can be a copywriter.

However, if you look at the statistics of any sales department, you'll see the same people at the bottom monthly...and the same at the top.

There's a reason...

Those at the bottom probably received the same training as those at the top...but the one's at the top have a natural born trait that keeps them there.

Whenever a person deals with the public...there are some mental characteristics that just can't be overcome.

So, one could say everyone in the sales department is a salesman...but not everyone has the same success.

Those at the bottom can usually eek out some sort of living...but no matter what they do they just can't be at the top.

Copywriters are just salesman using print...of course the face to face contact isn't necessary, but understanding people still takes the same skills.

Thanks
2 replies

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5620290].message }}

The Copy Nazi Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by max5ty

Those at the bottom can usually eek out some sort of living...

Eke! Eke! Eke!
- Thanks
- 1 reply
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5620834].message }}
- max5ty 12 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi
  
  Eke! Eke! Eke!
  
  I highly doubt with your talent you fall anywhere near the bottom.
  
  Thanks
  
  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5620884].message }}

Steve Hill

12 years ago

Originally Posted by max5ty

After having been a sales trainer for some of the largest companies...and having had experience in sales, as well as with a lot of salespeople...

Copywriters are just salesman using print...of course the face to face contact isn't necessary, but understanding people still takes the same skills.

In your opinion, what skills are most important?

Is it the ability to understand and leverage prospect emotions that make the best salesmen?

Or the ability to build a mutual working relationship with the prospect?

Or the ability to sell anything to anybody (even ice to eskimos)?

Or perhaps something else?

In a related story, the best car salesman I ever knew was the most laid-back guy on the large commercial dealership lot. He was never pushy in the least, and his whole objective was to help prospects find the exact vehicles they needed, not push the ones the boss wanted him to sell.

He was very good at determining exactly what those needs were, before even showing a single vehicle, and he'd go out of his way to find the correct answers to questions. If he didn't know the exact rear axle ratio for that particular model and year, he'd find out.

All the locals would seek him out (accepting no other salesman), and he sold more vehicles than anyone else at the dealership. I bought three trucks from him over time, and was so disappointed when he retired.

The same approach seems to work in copywriting - Halbert, Makepeace, and Bly, for example, have very personable styles that make the reader feel like they are hearing from a friend, one that wants to help us solve a problem (even if we didn't know we even had a problem before reading it).

In any case, I'd be quite interested in your viewpoint on what makes the best salesmen, whether in face-to-face or copywriting.

Thanks
1 reply

Signature

Learn more - earn more: Books for Copywriters

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5621265].message }}

RickDuris 12 years ago

Not everybody NEEDS to be a great copywriter.

Can you be a GREAT copywriter? Yes, I believe you can. As Malcolm Gladwell in Outliers points out, if you've 10,000+ hours, you can master pretty much anything.

But there are people that can be involved with copywriting, who are not great copywriters and still create value in the market in peripherally related areas.

- Rick Duris
- Thanks
Signature
CopyRanger.com
{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5621373].message }}

EricMN

12 years ago

I don't buy the left brain right brain stuff, that's another runaway media portrayal of academic literature.

But it's funny because so many really great writers are great because they took a chance. Ads, letters, campaigns. . . The ones that took the risks are timeless. I think if you got chops, and your work puts your client on edge, that's where the money is. It's about having the balls (and of course, the talent) to put it out there.

Despite what Max (forgot your real name. D'oh!)said, I like to take a few points away from some greats that have nothing to do with the technicalities of writing copy but more the philosophy of good copy.

"At some point it doesn't matter how good of a writer you are, but how good a knower you are." - the late Gary Halbert

The message resonated when I happened to listen to a recent webinar with John Carlton and the vast amount of past life experiences he's had.

And then I remembered this NYT Best selling authors advice. . .

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

It's about knowing, yeah. . . but the deeper message is that it's about experiencing. It's about feeling and knowing how it feels. How what feels? How your prospect feels.

And then it's about that big idea that hits that button.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5609268].message }}

clove

Banned 12 years ago

[DELETED]

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5609464].message }}

EricMN

12 years ago

Originally Posted by clove

Copywriting is applied psychology.

The fact that you are talking about right/left brain paradigms implies you don't "get" psychology.

Conclusion: You don't "get it."

Sorry to bust your bubble, but neuroscience know-how has nothing to do with "applied" psychology in the way it is being used here.

Knowing about brain asymmetry and writing a great ad can happen completely separate from one another. . . come to think of it they most likely do.

But I guess I should stop testing headlines and measuring response rates and start paying $400/hr for fMRI feedback on NAcc activations on my ads. . .

The ROI!

Mr Parker made some great insights, and he didn't have to be Dr. Ramashadran to do it.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5617902].message }}

AdwordsMogul

12 years ago

By the way, people use the "I wasn't born with it" thing as an excuse not to put in the effort it takes to get results.

Thanks

Signature

"Those who can - DO IT. Those who can't, say it's impossible."
Jean Paul a.k.a AdwordsMogul
PHPDevelopers.net - Top of the range PHP developers

⇉ Easy Link Saver - Are you tired of the pain of constantly searching for your affiliate links? ( Chrome extension - FREE )

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5620231].message }}

MikeMarin

12 years ago

Totally agree, that is why writing and copying out salesletter by hands work. It gives you the experience. You can be a walking encyclopedia of golf techniques too but that doesn't mean your going to be any good once you step on the course. Practice is KEY, I think there is alot of truth behind the 10,000 hour rule

Thanks

Signature

Do you feel stuck in the TRAP of "internet marketing"? Are you sick of Spinning Your Wheels Trying To Make Money Online? Were you promised easy earnings yet have been struggling for YEARS?

Truth is you've been left in the dark!

=> Click Here To Check Out The One Man Freedom System To Get The Full Picture [FREE NO OPT-IN] <==

Inside You'll Discover The Secrets To Living A Life Of Freedom, Fun, And Adventure with an Internet Based Information Marketing Business

==> Click Here To Check Out The One Man Freedom System [FREE NO OPT-IN] <==

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5621200].message }}

TopNotchAffiliate

12 years ago

Thank you all for your great posts this thread is interesting

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5625770].message }}

ChrisKahler

12 years ago

Great post... made me think a little

I like to see copywriting as a form of art myself.

It's a lot of science of course, but there's definitely an artistic nature to copywriting that I find challenging.

Consider explaining to someone how to write a novel... or do any other form of art for that matter...

You can tell them how to structure the story, how to build characters, how to progress a plot... but does that make their story good?

Not exactly.

The story needs to have some kind of mojo to work. Needs to have emotion.

I think the best way to put emotion into something is to actually BE emotional when you write and try to transfer what you feel into words... still following the science of course.

I guess you can act emotional about a project to capture more "oomph," if you're good at acting... but in my opinion the true emotion works best.

Good reason why you write best about things you like.. you can apply your true emotion to the writing.

Just my thoughts on this subject... very intriguing!

Chris

PS - These are my thoughts about how the right brain thinking applies to copywriting. I truthfully believe great copy is a humble balance between both sides.

Keeping to the science is important, as is infusing the copy with emotion.

Thanks

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5626609].message }}

AdwordsMogul

12 years ago

Another thing is your desire, and willingness to put money in your pocket.

I'm saying this because a lot of people are scared to ask for money and that makes their copy suck. So even when they learn a technique they try to tone and water $h!t down.

It still comes down to the same thing: if you don't write copy, put it out there, and risk some money you'll never get copywriting - no matter how much you "learn".

Thanks

Signature

"Those who can - DO IT. Those who can't, say it's impossible."
Jean Paul a.k.a AdwordsMogul
PHPDevelopers.net - Top of the range PHP developers

⇉ Easy Link Saver - Are you tired of the pain of constantly searching for your affiliate links? ( Chrome extension - FREE )

{{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5627467].message }}

Why You Can Be A Walking Encyclopedia of Copywriting Knowledge and STILL Not "Get It?"

Trending Topics

Google Ads, landing pages, and Clickbank links

Carry out better target audience research

A Very Strange Internet Problem

YouTube gets shopping display tools and affiliate partnership updates

Melb, Interat, Flower Show 2024