Are You All Talk?

12 years ago

I'm going to disagree with you if that is okay.

I don't need to be a copywriter (I'm not) or a user of something to have an opinion if someones copy/flyer/ad is any good or not.

Admittedly I would be an idiot if I started to give some 'technical' advice which maybe more in line with your thinking?

Example. A fellow Brit put up a flyer for a building services company.

Well I live in a house and I know that it would go straight in the bin if I received it. The list of services was so long it included cleaning gutters, gardens tidy ups etc.

So it was obvious it was not really a local quality builder.

It also had a company name claiming to be the largest of it's kind in the NW, I think it was, and like most people the 1st thing I did was Google it and found it didn't exist.

So my opinion was that it was a waste of time to print it and send it out.

Now I may be wrong, that is for them to decide and test but my opinion was certainly valid don't you think?

Dan

PS: When I posted on that particular thread Mark Andrews was busy typing at the same time as his post appeared when I finished mine and he had the same thoughts as me.

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Mark Andrews Banned 12 years ago

I remember the ad too Jimbo, thought it was pretty darn hopeless truth be told. Jack of all trades master of none was the first thing which sprang into the forefront of my mind on seeing the ad. They were trying to cover every base possible and the ad was simply crying out 'desperation'.

As for the topic of this thread, sure Rezbi there is a lot of crap here lately, on this front I agree with you however... I don't think you can or will succeed in censoring the information floating around here. The reminder is pointless truth be told. Although I know your heart and intention is in the right place, a thread such as this one - it won't alter a thing.

Warmest regards,

Mark Andrews
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The Marketeer

12 years ago

I agree with your post to a certain extent when it comes to speaking about fundamental principles of any specialist topic and in theory that is the best way to go but...

Remember that this is a public forum. Anyone can sign up and comment but no member can prevent another from having their say, unless of course they overstep the mark and cause public disorder.

I've also noticed that although some experts like to think they know all there is to know about any given topic...

There's been times when a newbie or someone from another field of expertise was able to spot something that so called experts were unable to see through. They were able to see an issue from a perspective that experts weren't able to.

So as much as some people would like to think otherwise, there's always something new to learn and sometimes even a layman can teach an expert something that they never knew...

And that is the benefit of allowing anyone to have their say.

P.S. Please bear in mind that I'm not advocating that any non expert should go ahead and comment about any and everything whenever they feel like. I'm not saying they should comment blindly without reading what other people have already said. What I am saying is that if after reading all the comments on any given thread, someone, anyone feels that they have something of value to add to the thread then go ahead because there may be some benefit in it.

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travlinguy

12 years ago

This is a public forum. Anyone can post here or on any of the other public forums. I think most people here and on the other forums understand that what they're getting is an opinion (sometimes a very educated opinion and other times not). And they're getting it for free.

With regard to having been there and done certain things... Who knows? People come here and make all kinds of claims. I'm usually of the mind that I'll believe someone until I know better. I've given a lot of advice here. I think most of it has been decent while some of it has been off target. I'm not a copywriter but I am someone who knows a bit about selling and marketing and can sometimes put that across in writing effective copy.

Does that exclude me from offering help or a suggestion to someone coming here looking for an answer. I don't think so.

In a public forum like this or the main board you're going to find a lot of stuff that's flat out wrong. That's something that ain't gonna change any time soon. By no means am I an expert in SEO but I continue to see people looking to buy backlink "packages" that will do absolutely nothing for them but get Spam complaints. There are still thousands of people who think they can put up phony likes on facebook and phony tweets on twitter and come away winners. More experienced members try and point these things out and get ignored. So it goes. You get what you pay for.

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Rezbi 12 years ago

As much as everyone keeps saying this is a public forum, it's still a public copywriting forum.

And my bugbear is not with everyone.

It is particularly with those who come on and insist they're copywriters when they're not. Especially those who claim to be experts.

There are plenty of people who are not copywriters - maybe they've read some posts on this very forum - and think they are.

Originally Posted by travlinguy

I'm not a copywriter but I am someone who knows a bit about selling and marketing and can sometimes put that across in writing effective copy.

I've never seen you mentioning this anywhere else. Doesn't mean you haven't, of course.

But those who don't know will assume you're a copywriter and may take your opinion to be informed advice.

Originally Posted by travlinguy

Does that exclude me from offering help or a suggestion to someone coming here looking for an answer. I don't think so.

No, it doesn't exclude you from offering advice. As long as you don't pretend to be a copywriter. Plenty do.

I've seen too many come on and criticise others saying, "We copywriters...blah...blah...blah," trying to act all haughty and arrogant.

And they're not even copywriters.

Fine, you want to give advice, give it. But don't do it under the pretense that you are a copywriter and give bad advice.
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colmodwyer

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Rezbi

Apart from these two groups, no one has a right to their opinion. No matter what they may think.

Firstly, this isn't a dictatorship and you aren't Dear Leader.

Secondly, the most experienced copywriters here are probably of the opinion that you TEST everything... even their own suggestions.

I like this quote from Dr. Flint McGlaughlin...

"There are no expert marketers [copywriters], only experienced testers [copywriters]."

I added [copywriters], just to clarify.

As someone who has been there, done that and doing it, I can guess a winning headline maybe 50% of the time... that's about the same success rate as the janitor and the lady who comes to water the plants.

Colm

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 12 years ago

[DELETED]

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NickN

12 years ago

Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi

...and even has the gall to use two failed gigs as testimonials - in both cases the clients were very unhappy and the pages didn't convert.

Haha, how do you use a testimonial from someone who hated your work? Or do you mean this person just name-dropped the clients to fill out his or her client list?

Reminds me when I wanted to use your "friendly" critique of my writing as a testimonial.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by NickN

Haha, how do you use a testimonial from someone who hated your work? Or do you mean this person just name-dropped the clients to fill out his or her client list?

Reminds me when I wanted to use your "friendly" critique of my writing as a testimonial.

I mean I know for a fact the clients HATED his work and they didn't work. But hasn't stopped him using them as examples and boasting that they converted. Total BS. Both clients came to me after his debacle so I know what went down.

My "friendly" critique was one of my better ones Dude.

You talking about this? -

Originally Posted by NickN

P.S. Your rewrite -- which I greatly appreciate -- wouldn't fly with that company. They went kinda crazy when I turned in my original radio ad for their meat. And that was just a cow and pig talking about how they were going to be tonight's dinner. "Too sadistic," the company said.

A cow and a pig talking about how they were going to be tonights dinner? I love it. You ever considered a career as a gag-writer? That would be perfect for Chevy Chase on "Community".

A cow and a pig talking about how they were going to be tonight's dinner. That's my laugh for the day. Thank you mate.

Busch's Premium Meat 30" Radio Spot

sfx under: Barnyard noises.

The Cow (deep voice): hey Pig - how they hangin'?

The Pig (squeaky voice): oh hi Beef.

The Cow: you know they're gonna zap me with the electric cattle prod today?

The Pig: no kidding? Will that be fun?

The Cow: oh yeah - I can't wait. Then they're gonna slice me up into thick juicy steaks and make gourmet sausages out of me.

The Pig: yeah?

The Cow: yeah...I'm part of the Premium Meat Promo at Busch's this week. What about you Dude?

The Pig: Oh I get to have my throat slit. Then they're gonna fry my ass with some eggs.

The Cow: getouttahere! Give me the electric cattle prod any day.

V.O.: Busch's Premium Meats - "meat to die for"

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NickN

12 years ago

Copy Nazi,

I'm specifically referring to when you said something like, "You have no idea. Jump off a bridge."

Classic.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by NickN

Copy Nazi,

I'm specifically referring to when you said something like, "You have no idea. Jump off a bridge."

Classic.

"Jump off a bridge"? I would never say that Dude. What I said was -

You asked for it so I'm gonna give it to you straight. Kill yourself. Go jump off a cliff right now. Your writing is terrible. Atrocious. Straight out of the School of No Idea.

OK. You got over the shock now? You want to be a writer? Or you want to be what you think is a writer. Let's just have a look at two examples. The first one you say "I think I did that pretty damn well". Here it is -

And one of the "experts" here PMed me to say how shocking my comments were. Funny that. I noticed you thanked me for it.

http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ml#post5201183

BTW didn't you just win $2k in a copywriting contest? Why isn't that in your sig? Shout it from the rooftops.

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NickN

12 years ago

Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi

BTW didn't you just win $2k in a copywriting contest? Why isn't that in your sig? Shout it from the rooftops.

I haven't been on here much lately, but you're right. I'll do that.

Thanks.

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Rezbi

12 years ago

Originally Posted by NickN

I haven't been on here much lately, but you're right. I'll do that.

BTW didn't you just win $2k in a copywriting contest? Why isn't that in your sig? Shout it from the rooftops. - The Copy Nazi

Thanks.

Nick, why don't you put that in your sig. file for starters?

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NickN 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Rezbi

Nick, why don't you put that in your sig. file for starters?

Yeah, that's great!

Of course, if The Copy Nazi allows it.
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Condiel

12 years ago

Although I am skilled in a specific filled, I take pride that I know a little bit about a lot of things. I provide advice when I feel it is needed and in forums I spot the need all the time. I know a lot of people who calls themselves experts are actually not. However, regardless of their skills, I appreciate their contribution as long as it is related to the topic on hand.

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maximus242

12 years ago

I think the reality of the situation is anyone who is arrogant enough to think they know everything about copywriting knows very little at all.

The more you learn, the more you realize how little you know. True mastery comes from realizing there is always something more to learn, and your never going to know it all.

Imagination, is more important than knowledge. There is always something new you can learn, and always an opportunity to improve.

I quite dislike copywriting Gurus. Even Halbert, had far more failures than successes. Yet nobody mentions that halbert struck out 9/10 times, but when he got a hit, it really was outrageously successful.

Was he a copywriting genius or did he just swing the bat more often.

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Rezbi

12 years ago

Originally Posted by maximus242

I think the reality of the situation is anyone who is arrogant enough to think they know everything about copywriting knows very little at all.

The more you learn, the more you realize how little you know. True mastery comes from realizing there is always something more to learn, and your never going to know it all.

Imagination, is more important than knowledge. There is always something new you can learn, and always an opportunity to improve.

I quite dislike copywriting Gurus. Even Halbert, had far more failures than successes. Yet nobody mentions that halbert struck out 9/10 times, but when he got a hit, it really was outrageously successful.

Was he a copywriting genius or did he just swing the bat more often.

No one knows everything about anything. That's why seeking knowledge will take you from your cradle to your grave. And you still won't know everything.

Personally, I know I have only a fraction of copywriting knowledge. If I do this for another 20 years, I think I'll be okay. Just about.

As for imagination, it's not more important than knowledge if you have no knowledge to base your imagination on. You need to know the guiding principles on which to base your imagination.

Can you learn about medicine and treat people through imagination alone? Can you become a lawyer through imagination alone?

The answer in both cases, and everything else in life, is a resounding 'no'.

The same goes for copywriting and marketing.

You need the guiding principles in place. And then you have to hone those principles until they become second nature.

It's the old saying about embarking on a journey: If you don't know where you're going, how will you get there? And will you know you're there once you do.

You need to map out that journey first.

And that's what comes from studying these and other subjects.

People like Gary Halbert made sure to put these principles in place before trying to write copy.

Was he successful because he swung the bat more often?

Here's a challenge for you: Write a hundred pieces of copy and see if any of them are as successful as his.

That should give you your answer.

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Mark Pescetti

12 years ago

They give 'expert' opinion. Beginners read them and fall over themselves thanking the writer, not knowing they've just been given a load of crap.

I don't agree with your tone and approach in the original post, but here's the deal:

Opinions given here are made with just a small percentage of information. Very rarely does a person asking for critique include how they're driving traffic, how they honed in upon a particular niche or why they're targeting particular circumstances and emotions.

Granted, sometimes the copy sucks and critiques are just worthless banter.

Other times...

Some amazing points are raised and we're all privy to witnessing the fundamentals put into action.

Now, I've personally made 7 figures for my clients. But that's after tons of consulting, interviewing, researching, writing, rewriting and meticulous testing.

I've seen situations here where I thought to myself, "He should just test the copy, after making a few simple tweaks... and NOT listen to all the feedback he's getting."

After all...

Copy that works and doesn't work (when it's fairly well written) can be slight.

Everyone here gives their best educated guess.

But unless we're intimately involved in the process, on every level, like we would be if the people asking for critiques hired one of us, the process would be WAY different.

Mark Pescetti

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Rezbi

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti

Granted, sometimes the copy sucks and critiques are just worthless banter...

... I've seen situations here where I thought to myself, "He should just test the copy, after making a few simple tweaks... and NOT listen to all the feedback he's getting."

Everyone here gives their best educated guess.

Good response. However...

You've basically confirmed what I said. How is a beginner supposed to know when and who to listen to and when no to?

Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti

Everyone here gives their best educated guess.

That's my point. Not all the guesses are educated. It's obvious from the replies.

There's not much difference between what I've said and what you're saying here.

The only real difference is tone.

And, yes, I was harsh because some deserve it. (Just a few - particularly the ones who come on and insist they're experts when it's obvious they're not.)

Look, I'm not just having a go. It bothers me that so many people - who don't know better - are being misled by wannabe experts.

I was a teacher and I hate it when I see idiots misguiding people just to look like experts.

The fact is, all you need to do is look at some of their own copy to know they're useless.

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The Copy Nazi Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by Rezbi

The fact is, all you need to do is look at some of their own copy to know they're useless.

Voila. And that's the bottom line.
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videolover7

12 years ago

As far as I'm concerned, the only people who have the right to give their 'opinions' are people who have been there and done it. I mean really, not just pretend.

"Find a person/people you know is/are knowledgeable and follow them."

Your quote doesn't support your point. Big difference between "been there and done it" and "knowledgeable".

VL

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The Marketeer

12 years ago

Have you ever thought of starting an "Experts Only Forum"?

I wonder how it would work?

Experts: "Only you can answer questions"

All other members: "You can only ask questions and watch the experts answer"

That would be fun, wouldn't it.

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Rezbi

12 years ago

Originally Posted by The Marketeer

Have you ever thought of starting an "Experts Only Forum"?

I wonder how it would work?

Experts: "Only you can answer questions"

All other members: "You can only ask questions and watch the experts answer"

That would be fun, wouldn't it.

Actually, they're called Masterminds. Even membership forums.

And, yes, they do exist. You usually have to pay for them.

And, yes, I've belonged to one or two where I've asked questions, sat back and got the answers.

And, you know what else?

Newbies and pseudo gurus are a bit more careful about dishing out advice. they know they'll only be exposed.

Oh, and yes, they are rather fun.

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The Marketeer

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Rezbi

Actually, they're called Masterminds. Even membership forums.

And, yes, they do exist. You usually have to pay for them.

And, yes, I've belonged to one or two where I've asked questions, sat back and got the answers.

And, you know what else?

Newbies and pseudo gurus are a bit more careful about dishing out advice. they know they'll only be exposed.

Oh, and yes, they are rather fun.

Actually I was referring to a paid "Experts Only" Forum. That's a potential business opportunity you might have there. I'd love to know it develops. Please do keep us posted.

I'm a member of a paid mastermind/forum myself and most of the members there are quite skilled but there's also many newbies.

Although it's a paid forum, they don't put any restrictions on who can comment.They still allow freedom of speech.

I've noticed there's a big trend in the copywriting arena with the "anti-guru" or the "let's expose the guru" angle. And it's all good for those who are milking it for all it's worth. Go for it.

Strange how some copywriters plaster their ads with "guru" testimonials to boost their credibility but at the same time attack them in their copy.

If people are comfortable with that, then the world's your oyster.

But you know what they say, "One day the milk's gonna run out" and then who will people starting blaming for their failures.

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Rezbi

12 years ago

Originally Posted by The Marketeer

Actually I was referring to a paid "Experts Only" Forum. That's a potential business opportunity you might have there. I'd love to know it develops. Please do keep us posted.

I'm a member of a paid mastermind/forum myself and most of the members there are quite skilled but there's also many newbies.

Although it's a paid forum, they don't put any restrictions on who can comment.They still allow freedom of speech.

I've noticed there's a big trend in the copywriting arena with the "anti-guru" or the "let's expose the guru" angle. And it's all good for those who are milking it for all it's worth. Go for it.

Strange how some copywriters plaster their ads with "guru" testimonials to boost their credibility but at the same time attack them in their copy.

If people are comfortable with that, then the world's your oyster.

But you know what they say, "One day the milk's gonna run out" and then who will people starting blaming for their failures.

If any of the guru-bashers are working for those same gurus I'll be surprised.

Is that what you're saying?

I personally try not to bash anyone unless they've done something wrong.

And, in most cases, I don't bash them anyway in case I'm wrong about them.

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The Marketeer

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Rezbi

If any of the guru-bashers are working for those same gurus I'll be surprised.

Is that what you're saying?

I personally try not to bash anyone unless they've done something wrong.

And, in most cases, I don't bash them anyway in case I'm wrong about them.

Maybe they don't mention them by name but I've seen a lot of clickbank sales letters bashing guru's. Some/many WSO's bash guru's. It seems to be the fashion. Even the gurus bash gurus.

But yet they proudly post guru names right on the top of their ads, basking in their limelight.

If it wasn't for the guru's some people would find it very hard to get anywhere. You could argue that some guru's even pay the wages of the very people that are bashing them.

BTW it's incorrect to think that everyone who posts in the Copywriting Forum or any other forum is doing so as an expert, unless you can read minds.

Unless they specifically call themselves experts, don't take them as one. Maybe they're just trying to be helpful like everyone else.

Nowhere in the forum rules does it say, "Only Experts can comment". So until the management decides otherwise it's open to one and all.

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JasonParker

12 years ago

I think the important thing is to not depend on getting your education from a marketing forum.

It's fun to chat amongst friends and read opinions, but I don't personally listen to a word of what anyone says unless I know they've made at least 10s of millions in sales for them or their clients.

Why learn from a guy on a forum when you can learn from the best of the best?

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arfasaira

12 years ago

I'll be honest - this forum has been a goldmine for me, especially the copywriting forum. I've learnt a ton of stuff and I've also dished out advice to others which hopefully has had some value to others.

The thing is, I used to post a lot more often...but no offense to anyone here, I've noticed a lot of rubbish being posted on this forum over the last several months... along with a silly number of critique requests.

I'm not knocking this, but there was some talk a while back about wanting to have a separate critique forum, but I don't think the idea took off.

Maybe we should rally round and try and get more of the ones who've made a REAL impact on this forum to post more. Where's Paul Hancox, Vin Montello or Collette...even the regular top guys who are really good rarely post here anymore which is pretty disheartening.

So Rezbi, while I do agree with you, the nature of the forum is such that there's not much you can do except just ignore the useless comments. And yup, there's plenty of them floating around here.

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Rezbi

12 years ago

Originally Posted by arfasaira

I'll be honest - this forum has been a goldmine for me, especially the copywriting forum. I've learnt a ton of stuff and I've also dished out advice to others which hopefully has had some value to others.

The thing is, I used to post a lot more often...but no offense to anyone here, I've noticed a lot of rubbish being posted on this forum over the last several months... along with a silly number of critique requests.

I'm not knocking this, but there was some talk a while back about wanting to have a separate critique forum, but I don't think the idea took off.

Maybe we should rally round and try and get more of the ones who've made a REAL impact on this forum to post more. Where's Paul Hancox, Vin Montello or Collette...even the regular top guys who are really good rarely post here anymore which is pretty disheartening.

So Rezbi, while I do agree with you, the nature of the forum is such that there's not much you can do except just ignore the useless comments. And yup, there's plenty of them floating around here.

True, there's not much I can do. But I can give my opinion.

Isn't that what all the naysayers are doing on this thread?

Funny how they're all insisting it's a public forum and they're allowed to speak their minds. At the same time, it's like they're saying I don't.

Well, this thread is me speaking my mind.

And it is a public forum, right?

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Rezbi

12 years ago

Originally Posted by JasonParker

I think the important thing is to not depend on getting your education from a marketing forum.

You're right, Jason, but the point I'm making is that the majority of new people don't know this.

And, as a result, they actually think they're getting copywriting tips from experts.

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JasonParker

12 years ago

Originally Posted by Rezbi

You're right, Jason, but the point I'm making is that the majority of new people don't know this.

And, as a result, they actually think they're getting copywriting tips from experts.

I'm sure they know that already... They aren't stupid.

They know Ted Nicholas caliber guys aren't hanging around a copywriting forum.

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Joseph Robinson Banned 12 years ago

Originally Posted by JasonParker

They know Ted Nicholas caliber guys aren't hanging around a copywriting forum.

Well I guess I can stop hanging around here now. Thought he was just on vacation and kept waiting for him to come back.
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alfid

12 years ago

How about...if I wanted your opinion I'd give it to you. LOL Seriously, there is a difference between a post that asks for an opinion and I think it's good to get a variety of mixed responses from people who may have purchased items on the internet as well as responses from the "experts" versus the "ex spurts" as you say.

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Rezbi

12 years ago

Originally Posted by alfid

How about...if I wanted your opinion I'd give it to you. LOL Seriously, there is a difference between a post that asks for an opinion and I think it's good to get a variety of mixed responses from people who may have purchased items on the internet as well as responses from the "experts" versus the "ex spurts" as you say.

Or better still, if I want your opinion I'll beat it out of you.

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angiecolee

12 years ago

I say let the wheat separate itself from the chaff.

Part of becoming a copywriter is doing research, and that's one of the first things that got hammered into my skull. If you're reading books by the gurus and the experts and the top notch guys, you've come across this little bit of knowledge.

So anyone that comes on here asking any anonymous face on the internet for advice without researching which options will work best is just going to have to learn the hard way. Personally, I think those guys sometimes are looking for an easy out. They want someone to hold their hand and tell them how to do it, but don't want to pay for it so they come here.

I love you guys, but not every option presented is right for my situation, even if it's presented by a resurrected Halbert himself. The person asking for the advice has to have the smarts to discern relevant advice from **** advice or he/she won't last long in this field.

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