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Fired! 50% (or less) up front ONLY - no matter who it is.

by Marty S
34 replies
I just fired a copywriter I hired to work on an upcoming project of mine. I had been used to chasing him down and reminding him of what stage of progress we were at, but today was the final straw. He was accusing me of being arrogant and disrespectful. I was so shocked at him saying this I reviewed the messenger conversation, and couldn't understand where he got this from.

In the last 6 months I have paid about $10,000USD in services to writers, copywriters and programmers. I have NEVER once jilted anyone, but I do demand prompt service with ongoing communication. I would have kept this guy for other jobs in spite of his disorganization but he simply went too far today.

Here are the last few lines of our conversation -
Marty says:
You have changed YOUR tone for some reason, I do not know why.

C.E.T says:
Fine but don't talk to me like you do.

Marty says:
Everytime we connect, I have to bring you up to speed on what we were doing, what we agreed upon, and where is the next stage of the work you said you were doing...

C.E.T says:
Just watch the arrogance, I don't deal with it well.

Marty says:
I have no idea what is up with you, up until now, I just thought you were overly busy and took on too much. Now I feel you have no idea how to treat, manage or communicate with your clients.

Very disspaointing.

Marty says:
I feel like I am not speaking to C.E.T right now.

C.E.T says:
You are. Just look back at the way you talk to me. It's disrespectful. And I don't respond well
to disrespectful people.

Marty says:
I dont respond well to people working for me, whom I have to remind about the job at hand every conversation!

Marty says:
I will take it from here, if you wish and do the autoresponders myself.

C.E.T says:
That sounds about right, wait until the end and back out. That's what I was waiting for...

C.E.T says:
I'm editing this thing as we speak...to make sure I make you happy.

Marty says:
You are inviting it sir. I just took a look at this convo again, and cannot figure out where you are coming from.

C.E.T says:
So what do you want to do. I'm editing everything now. If you want me to stop and do it yourself, let me know now.

Marty says:
I would like you to apologize for your attitude towards me today, and supply a firm commitment for finishing the sales letter, affiliate sales page, and the three auto-responders as per the project requirements. I would also like this done without me having to remind you about what needs to be done and when. Can you do that?

C.E.T says:
Just let me know if I should continue to work on this. It's open on my computer now.

Marty says:
I would like you to apologize for your attitude towards me today, and supply a firm commitment for finishing the sales letter, affiliate sales page, and the three auto-responders as per the project requirements. I would also like this done without me having to remind you about what needs to be done and when. Can you do that?

C.E.T says:
Just let me know if I should continue to work on this. It's open on my computer now.

Marty says:
Thanks for your efforts thus far. Unfortunately, as a result of this conversation your services will no linger be required. All the best.

C.E.T says:
Please tell me you are kidding.

C.E.T says:
I am not sure what "linger" means in your last statement, but I will be looking for you in the poker forums and will gladly tell everyone what I think of MTTKPAK (great name).
Needless to say, from his last statements, I am glad I nipped this in the bud. So unprofessional. I will not give his name to anyone on this forum, but I will say that you should not pay anyone more than 50% up front until you really start to know them. This guy wanked himself out of another $550 and quite likely future work as well.
#50% #fired #front #matter #page not found
  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    My suggestion is to stop working with your copywriters through
    IM applications. Voice communication is so much more accurate.
    You could probably have won your writer over if you were willing
    to pick up the phone and feel where he or she was coming from.

    I didn't read your whole argument. As a writer who works with
    clients sometimes it can be frustrating. The client sometimes wants
    the upper hand, wishing to call all the shots. The irony of course
    is that the writer, if skilled, is brought in precisely to fashion a
    selling system that the client either cannot to the same level or
    does not want to.

    In writing, as in many things, more than one chef can spoil the
    entire dish and make everyone unhappy.

    Just another perspective my friend. I'm not saying your former
    writer is not at fault, just that if you came across as arrogant
    or having a chip on your shoulder you need to take some responsibility
    for that. In most things other people's perceptions matter in
    getting what we want more than our feelings - it's the way we
    go about making ourselves understood matters quite a lot.

    The writer thought you came off as arrogant. What could you
    have done to not allow this perception in the first place?
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  • Profile picture of the author I Web Content
    Yeah, sounds to me like he was way out of line. Copywriters provide a service, and really ought to be mindful that they're employees, first and foremost.

    You dodged a bullet.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kenneth L
      Originally Posted by I Web Content View Post

      Yeah, sounds to me like he was way out of line. Copywriters provide a service, and really ought to be mindful that they're employees, first and foremost.

      You dodged a bullet.
      Oh Yeah...Copywriters sure are employees...Halbert, Bencivenga, Carlton and more...no difference between them and Walmart Workers! Order them about and tell them to get their uniforms on...and...don't dare let them finish writing 'til you say so!

      Hmmm....I think not!

      The Copywriter is the guy who brings in the money.

      Anyway it doesn't surprise me in the least bit that most Copywriters gravitate towards writing exclusively for their own products.

      That is my goal.

      It definitely is the best way, especially now the Internet has made it far easier compared with Direct Mail, etc.

      This is why I am devoting so much time learning PPC at the moment. Too many Copywriters focus exclusively on the 'writing' part and not on the whole business...master that and you're completely free.

      Kenneth
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      • Profile picture of the author wrcato
        The Copywriter is the guy who brings in the money.

        Anyway it doesn't surprise me in the least bit that most Copywriters gravitate towards writing exclusively for their own products.

        That is my goal.

        It definitely is the best way, especially now the Internet has made it far easier compared with Direct Mail, etc.

        This is why I am devoting so much time learning PPC at the moment. Too many Copywriters focus exclusively on the 'writing' part and not on the whole business...master that and you're completely free.

        Kenneth[/QUOTE]

        Kenneth, If a copywriter doesn't know how to sell products & services; then don't know how to market them, then in my opinion they are not true copywriters.
        They are just wanna be writers.

        Copywriting is salesmanship in print.

        Also I do not know how the internet has made marketing or copywriting any easier than any other medium like direct mail. The copywriter/marketer, now has to learn how to use html, java script and with word press some php. They also have to learn how to use server side applications, set up databases, mess with ftp htaccess, etc. Unless they outsource.

        With direct mail all you have to do is find your niche market, product(s), prospects name and address pay for mailings and wait. A whole lot simpler and less technical.

        I like to use both mediums. My favorite is direct mail.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    I don't think it's professional on your part to post a private
    conversation in a public forum like this. I would suggest
    you reconsider deleting your post.

    I consider all conversation with my clients as CONFIDENTIAL.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author Marty S
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      I don't think it's professional on your part to post a private
      conversation in a public forum like this. I would suggest
      you reconsider deleting your post.

      I consider all conversation with my clients as CONFIDENTIAL.

      -Ray Edwards
      I Changed his ID, so nothing confidential has been divulged and as mentioned will not divulge his identity. On the other hand I wanted some feedback to this situation.
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      • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
        I'm not really defensive. I've been on both sides of the
        equation however and have some perspective. Managing
        people is a big skill - especially creative people. If you
        want to base your business around managing people
        you can make a lot of money but you also take the
        headaches that go with it too. Just life in the trenches
        I reckon. Your copywriter may be a nut - I don't know.

        What I do know is that you can only be successful
        working with people as far as you are willing to either
        keep them happy or dominate them with threats. Most
        people of any talent are not easily dominated with
        threat of termination, so the reasonable approach is
        to figure out how you can keep your talent happy.

        Anyway, sounds like a deal gone bad. As somebody
        who has hired and fired myself I know being in that
        position can be unpleasant. Dan Kennedy has famously
        said he has no real employees. Obviously his partners
        employ people, but somehow DK considers managing
        his own to be a hassle he doesn't want. Funny thing
        is - he wrote a book about managing people!
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Copywriters provide a service, and really ought to be mindful that they're employees, first and foremost.
        They are independent contractors, not employees - unless you are paying them a standard salary. $10k sounds like a lot - but we don't know how many writers, etc are being paid in this 6 month period. I expect all of them also have other commitments and projects they are working on.

        Project requirements and dates of completion should be spelled out and agreed to when the project begins. Using IM or phone might be seen as demanding or an interruption of other work the contractor is doing at that particular time...unless the contacts are scheduled in advance to suit both parties.

        The conversation posted doesn't make either of you look desirable to work with. Demands for apologies and drama don't belong in a working relationship. There seems to be a lack of respect and trust on both sides.

        kay
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        • Profile picture of the author Marty S
          "They are independent contractors, not employees - unless you are paying them a standard salary. $10k sounds like a lot - but we don't know how many writers, etc are being paid in this 6 month period. I expect all of them also have other commitments and projects they are working on."

          Hmmm... Still I am paying - bottom line, no? How many, how much - I don't get that point.

          Project requirements and dates of completion should be spelled out and agreed to when the project begins. Using IM or phone might be seen as demanding or an interruption of other work the contractor is doing at that particular time...unless the contacts are scheduled in advance to suit both parties.

          Well we did have a deadline, but did not describe the stages to that end. Fair point I guess.

          Our point of contact was a normal procedure. If not, one party can always say, "I am busy, can I chat later?" No problem, and it wasn't a problem.

          The conversation posted doesn't make either of you look desirable to work with. Demands for apologies and drama don't belong in a working relationship. There seems to be a lack of respect and trust on both sides.

          Sad to say, this is what it came to and I am responsible for that however, I don't think anyone is immune to getting a little demanding or emotional during work - whether needed or not. I am passionate about what I do.

          Just a hunch but, given your assumptions here and lack of value in your post (why did you write it anyway?), I don't deem you a very desirable contact either. I have BTW already hired and paid people in this forum without such incident.

          Getting back to OP - the oddest thing though, is that even though I knew his limitations we were working fine up until this moment - still in the back of my mind I am afraid it REALLY wasn't him I was speaking to - it just seemed so out of character.[/quote]
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  • Profile picture of the author Keeslover
    Marty,
    I have to ask, living in Denver...does this guy wear orange and blue and answer to the name Jay Cutler? :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by Keeslover View Post

      Marty,
      I have to ask, living in Denver...does this guy wear orange and blue and answer to the name Jay Cutler? :-)
      Time will show that Denver made a HUGE mistake hiring Josh McDoofus as their head coach. Anyone with half of a brain doesn't want to trade a 26 year old franchise QB after he made his first Pro Bowl and led the team to the 2nd best offense in the NFL last year. He doesn't repeatedly tell his franchise QB that "anyone is tradeable, including you" unless the coach is a complete egomaniac, idiot, or both.

      Especially when Denver's defense couldn't stop a bunch of Girl Scouts running around the field last year. All he had to do was fix the defense and Denver is a strong playoff team.

      Instead, one of the TEN teams that have raised their hand and said they will gladly take Cutler will get him and Denver will be one of the worst teams in the NFL until they draft their next franchise QB... about 5 years from now.

      That's how I see it and I'm a Steelers fan for the past 30 years.

      Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Dean Dhuli
    I had been used to chasing him down and reminding him of what stage of progress we were at, but today was the final straw.
    Hmm, you mean he was past the copy due date already?

    If not, could it be possible that you had started annoying him with your
    frequent reminders without realizing it?

    I'm not saying that was the case.

    Sometimes people are so eager to make their project a success that they
    start acting like hard taskmasters with their service providers unknowingly.

    And to be frank, I'm not aware of any rule which states that freelance copywriters
    are supposed to provide day by day copy status updates to their clients.

    Freelance copywriters are NOT employees.

    When I take up a project, I'd prefer the client left me alone for a few
    days to work on the copy freely.

    He will know I'm working on it because I frequently email clients asking
    for some details or information, and after about 3 weeks or so send him
    the first draft for his opinion.

    So at most times I am the one emailing my clients during the
    the project and not the other way around... at least in my case.

    From the conversation you posted above, I can see that both
    of you had gone a bit overboard.

    The politics of dealing with clients can be a bit tricky and
    they have to be mastered over time just like getting copywriting
    clients or writing better copy.

    Your ex-copywriter said that he was editing your copy.
    So that means he had been working on it all along and just
    didn't know or didn't care to keep you informed.

    Like I said, these things have to be learned over time and
    he was probably lagging behind on this front.

    Maybe another copywriter would've responded to your questions
    in a more diplomatic manner, we don't know.

    As for you...

    Did you really have to keep insisting on the apology even after he
    told you he was editing the copy?

    I believe it was the copy you wanted and not frequent updates.
    For you to find another copywriter and start from ground zero means
    another 3 or 4 weeks.

    So maybe if you had calmed down a bit, you'd not have to go through
    all this all over again and launch the product a lot sooner.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm not taking anybody's side here.

    I'm just saying from experience what could have probably happened.



    Regards,
    Dean.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
    Marty,

    I have to agree with Raydal on this one. Printing this private chat transcript in a public forum is a bad idea. While changing his name might hide the identity of the copywriter, it doesn't hide what you said.

    To be honest, the conversation part that you said does not put you in a flattering light. Seriously, just read your part as if you were reading someone else's conversation and you'll see what I mean.

    That's one of the problems with IM chat transcripts -- they rarely show the tone or full story behind the conversation. It can come across as quite impersonal or cold IMHO.

    I need to point something else out as well.

    Originally Posted by Marty S View Post


    In the last 6 months I have paid about $10,000USD in services to writers, copywriters and programmers. I have NEVER once jilted anyone, but I do demand prompt service with ongoing communication.
    While $10K is a good chunk of money, it wasn't paid strictly to one person. Even if you had paid half of that amount ($5000) to the copywriter over 6 months, that works out to 6 months which is $10K for the year in income -- definitely not a livable income in most countries.

    That means your copywriter had to take on other projects besides yours to meet their living expenses (whatever that amount might be). More projects open at once means less available time to give each project. Less time to give each projects means clients like you start to feel ignored (or worse).

    That's why more established copywriters (in terms of portfolio and track record) charge $3-30K per project: It allows us to focus most or all of our time on that project and give our clients that V.I.P. treatment that everyone likes to receive.

    Don't get me wrong... I give you a lot of credit for investing $10K into growing your business. Many online entrepreneurs can't or won't make that type of investment. I just wanted to point out one of the factors that created this mess for you that no one had mentioned yet.

    That said, when you are ready, shoot me a PM and let me know the specs of your project and budget and I will be happy to recommend some other potential copywriters for you.

    Best of luck,

    Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Marty S
      Yeah sure, not great on either part I guess. But after a good game of shinney I looked back and figured out for myself I did the right thing after all. Just didn't feel good about it becuase I was getting along with him.

      He knew I had other jobs waiting, and 10g is still a lot to me so I don't give it it away without responsibility involved. He simply wasn't being responsible with the project and commitment he agreed to.

      I put the full chat here so some of you could see both sides as it were, I don't think I compromised anything but myself in this section of the forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author PragmaJeff
        Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

        Yeah sure, not great on either part I guess. But after a good game of shinney I looked back and figured out for myself I did the right thing after all. Just didn't feel good about it becuase I was getting along with him.

        He knew I had other jobs waiting, and 10g is still a lot to me so I don't give it it away without responsibility involved. He simply wasn't being responsible with the project and commitment he agreed to.

        I put the full chat here so some of you could see both sides as it were, I don't think I compromised anything but myself in this section of the forum.
        Forgive my intrusion, but to a casual observer or at least to my newbie self that doesn't seem like the full chat.
        In any event, I hope you feel better. Better luck next time.
        Jeepers! I hope I don't encounter any problems in my own quest for copy writing!
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  • Profile picture of the author Aurora2009
    Recommendation.....read "How To Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. May save you future frustration in your dealings w/ others.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

    I just fired a copywriter I hired to work on an upcoming project of mine. I had been used to chasing him down and reminding him of what stage of progress we were at, but today was the final straw. He was accusing me of being arrogant and disrespectful. I was so shocked at him saying this I reviewed the messenger conversation, and couldn't understand where he got this from.

    In the last 6 months I have paid about $10,000USD in services to writers, copywriters and programmers. I have NEVER once jilted anyone, but I do demand prompt service with ongoing communication. I would have kept this guy for other jobs in spite of his disorganization but he simply went too far today.

    Here are the last few lines of our conversation -
    Marty says:
    You have changed YOUR tone for some reason, I do not know why.

    C.E.T says:
    Fine but don't talk to me like you do.

    Marty says:
    Everytime we connect, I have to bring you up to speed on what we were doing, what we agreed upon, and where is the next stage of the work you said you were doing...

    C.E.T says:
    Just watch the arrogance, I don't deal with it well.

    Marty says:
    I have no idea what is up with you, up until now, I just thought you were overly busy and took on too much. Now I feel you have no idea how to treat, manage or communicate with your clients.

    Very disspaointing.

    Marty says:
    I feel like I am not speaking to C.E.T right now.

    C.E.T says:
    You are. Just look back at the way you talk to me. It's disrespectful. And I don't respond well
    to disrespectful people.

    Marty says:
    I dont respond well to people working for me, whom I have to remind about the job at hand every conversation!

    Marty says:
    I will take it from here, if you wish and do the autoresponders myself.

    C.E.T says:
    That sounds about right, wait until the end and back out. That's what I was waiting for...

    C.E.T says:
    I'm editing this thing as we speak...to make sure I make you happy.

    Marty says:
    You are inviting it sir. I just took a look at this convo again, and cannot figure out where you are coming from.

    C.E.T says:
    So what do you want to do. I'm editing everything now. If you want me to stop and do it yourself, let me know now.

    Marty says:
    I would like you to apologize for your attitude towards me today, and supply a firm commitment for finishing the sales letter, affiliate sales page, and the three auto-responders as per the project requirements. I would also like this done without me having to remind you about what needs to be done and when. Can you do that?

    C.E.T says:
    Just let me know if I should continue to work on this. It's open on my computer now.

    Marty says:
    I would like you to apologize for your attitude towards me today, and supply a firm commitment for finishing the sales letter, affiliate sales page, and the three auto-responders as per the project requirements. I would also like this done without me having to remind you about what needs to be done and when. Can you do that?

    C.E.T says:
    Just let me know if I should continue to work on this. It's open on my computer now.

    Marty says:
    Thanks for your efforts thus far. Unfortunately, as a result of this conversation your services will no linger be required. All the best.

    C.E.T says:
    Please tell me you are kidding.

    C.E.T says:
    I am not sure what "linger" means in your last statement, but I will be looking for you in the poker forums and will gladly tell everyone what I think of MTTKPAK (great name).
    Needless to say, from his last statements, I am glad I nipped this in the bud. So unprofessional. I will not give his name to anyone on this forum, but I will say that you should not pay anyone more than 50% up front until you really start to know them. This guy wanked himself out of another $550 and quite likely future work as well.
    And you guys are adults?
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  • Profile picture of the author clever7
    I think it was not really a good idea to bring this discussion here to the forum. You should perhaps talk about it with your friends, or simply describe the discussion somehow, without repeating here each word of it.

    As a matter of fact, which was your intention when posting it? Did you expect to see everyone here agreeing with you and hating the copywriter?

    Be careful next time! Most people are aggressive and may offend you, instead of showing you compassion.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marty S
    Yes, true I guess. Not a great place for sympathetic discussion. Thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author OnlineWriter
    I'm a full-time writer and I prefer 25% up front, 50% at the half way mark and the last 25% when the job is complete. It saves a lot of hassle. Writers (including myself) may have all kinds of strange things happen to them while working with you so keep that in mind.

    My wife recently broke her knee so I have to juggle working from home and taking 4 kids to and from appointments, school, etc.. I keep in close contact with my clients and most were understanding that I would need a day or so that was completely unproductive. Luckily, I seem to work long-term with people and companies so they didn't mind. If anything, I typically offer some type of discount if some unforeseen event happens to prevent me from keeping on schedule.

    The best thing to do with a writer is set a schedule that isn't overly demanding and have them update you every other day or once a week if it's something large. Seems to work out well. I don't like being asked every single day if I have hit the 3000 word mark but would never be disrespectful like "CET" there.
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    • Profile picture of the author Marty S
      Originally Posted by OnlineWriter View Post

      I'm a full-time writer and I prefer 25% up front, 50% at the half way mark and the last 25% when the job is complete. It saves a lot of hassle. Writers (including myself) may have all kinds of strange things happen to them while working with you so keep that in mind.
      Is this standard? I hadn't considered anything like this before, sounds fair.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        Spreading the payment like that is a great way to do it. Don't know if it's common or not - but seems fair for both contractor and subcontractor.

        Not a great place for sympathetic discussion.
        Nope - but you will get honest opinions from people not associated with the problem. They may view the problem differently which could give you insight in future relations with writers if you take the comments as constructive rather than attacks.

        You didn't post the entire transcript and one thing you should notice is though you say the working relationship was good before this one conversation, the writer seems to indicate otherwise when he says

        Just look back at the way you talk to me. It's disrespectful.
        I don't believe you have said whether the project was over the time limit or the writer was late with a commitment. If he didn't meet the schedule he had agreed to, I understand that could cause problems for you. Writers are often creative personalities and may react defensively if they feel pushed or micro-managed.

        If the deadlines for completion were not clearly defined, the conversation should consist of "when can I expect the final copy" rather than on "attitude". A lesson here is that personality conflicts will often end a professional working relationship.

        You've been offered some good advice in this thread by people with no dog in the hunt. What conclusion you draw from that is up to you.

        kay
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  • Profile picture of the author wrcato
    "I had been used to chasing him down and reminding him of what stage of progress we were at".

    Marty, I think you did the right thing in firing your copywriter.
    He should have been on task. You should not have to keep repeating yourself.
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