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Queston for Ray Edwards (raydal)

by David Maschke
15 replies
Hi Ray,

Please forgive me for calling on you specifically, but you are the only one that I know of that was an actual salesman, a man who either made the sale or starved.

Everyone is teaching that copywriting is multiplied salesmanship in print. The only problem is, none of them were ever salesman and cannot really talk about salesmanship.

What are some elements or principles of making a sale face to face?

I know there is...

The opening
The presentation
The Closing
Overcoming objections

That is only what I can come up with off the top of my head.

Could you tell us what's involved in being a salesman?

If these are some of your best kept secrets and don't want to publicly reveal them, we would certainly understand.

Thanks,
Dave
#edwards #queston #ray #raydal
  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Hi Dave,

    Well some pointers I could pull out would be:

    -Have courage, as in self-confidence
    - Enthusiasm for your product or service.
    -Finding out what people want and helping them get it.
    -So try and see everything from the prospect's point of view.
    - Ask a lot of questions and LISTEN -most people sell themselves. (Especially "Why?")
    - Know that the prospect have 2 reasons for buying --the one that sounds
    good and the REAL one.
    -Offer REAL value and be honest with the prospect.

    The bottom line is that if the prospects feels like you are on their side
    then you've already won.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author vistad
      Ray I've followed your posts and found them honest and instructive.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    Wow, that puts things in a whole new perspective.

    I didn't know you were running a WSO, and it's time I became one of your customers.

    Will your WSO still be running over the weekend? I have to add money to my credit card (No, I'll be the first to admit I'm not making money online, which is why my product isn't an info-product)

    The listening part you mentioned, a couple of people mentioned the same objection to my product, but it didn't sink in until I stepped back, saw a pattern and REALLY listened to what they said.

    By the way, your advice on another thread really helped. By critiquing others, I was then able to see the same problems in my own letter. Which is another reason why I have to redo the whole thing.

    Thanks so much,
    Dave
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by David Maschke View Post

      Will your WSO still be running over the weekend? I have to add money to my credit card (No, I'll be the first to admit I'm not making money online, which is why my product isn't an info-product)

      Thanks so much,
      Dave
      Another objection you'll need to overcome is procrastination. People
      will always try to put off the buying decision. That's why a good
      sales letter would have some URGENCY elements ...

      But, yes the WSO will still be there.

      -Ray Edwards
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      The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    Another objection you'll need to overcome is procrastination
    LOL, fair enough.

    I put $20 onto my credit card to run a WSO, It doesn't have $27.

    I'm sure I could easily put something onto the classified section in order to get enough to buy your ebook. Will start on it now.

    Dave
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin Lam
    I've got an objection - wife and kids!

    J/k, lol - please don't tell them. But seriously, working from home, they take up a lot of my time. I helped my wife start up her own scrapbooking business (not the type of continuity income I'd like to see, but it makes her happy) and we take turn playing with our daughter or even together. And since I work from home, she thinks I have all the time in the world.

    We left this morning to go buy some scrapbook pages. Guess how long the receipt was. No exaggeration intended, but it's about 10 feet long. It was from the register to the door. We had a crowd of people watching the register print it out as the clerk held the other end walking to the door.

    Point is folks, our lives is filled with all kinds of things, but we have to prioritize and keep working, keep focused and look at the short-term and long-term goals. With that, determine the path you want to take to get there. Don't be afraid to change your path half-way through. It's just like playing chess. You might start out with one strategy, but you may end up with another.

    David, you might not be making money now, but keep going, bro. It took me 8 months to make $1 measly dollar, but 6 months later to make 6 figures. That was a little after my 19th birthday 7 years ago.
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  • Profile picture of the author briancassingena
    Ray must be a great copywriter if he has real sales experience. I know Dan Kennedy has it, Gary Halbert had it, I have it, plenty of the gurus I learnt from have sold face to face, nose to nose, toes to toes, sell-or-starve. I've been a broke starving salesman, then a top performing salesman, and now writing copy. Ray, you have quite a reputation here, I think I'll check out more of your work.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dean Dhuli
      And since I work from home, she thinks I have all the time in the world.
      I guess a lot of people have that problem.

      When you work from home family members and friends seem to think
      you have plenty of free time at hand.
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      • Profile picture of the author John_S
        Wherever you are as a copywriter, it won't hurt you to go out and knock on doors, and pitch a product or service. Join up with some organization which offers sales training.

        Kirby is something I can recommend, depending on the sales managers you get. They'll observe your "show," and offer suggestions for improving it. For example, I went from 1 0f 39 knock-ins, to one in four.

        There are client meetings and other situations beyond writing where sales training comes in handy.

        BTW. You can stump most copywriters with a simple question, "Well, if copy is salesmanship in print, then what's salemanship?" You'll get the answer in the first day or two of most sales training.

        It is amazing how many wannabe copywriters think Gary Halbert's one and only secret is being brash. They go out, full of themselves, and get a meeting with a business owner. And with one or two questions, that business person will neatly remove their head and hand it to them.

        Some stuff to add to your list from a Kirby guy....

        ....Get the prospect involved. Too often sales letters seem like one-way announcements.

        ....Comment on their personal situation. The canned scripted stuff (swipe file fill-in-the-blank) only gets you so far).

        ...Tell "selling stories."

        ...Get small commitments along the way. Get the prospect to admit and agree with what you're saying. And yes, it can be done with sales letters.

        ...Proof. The prospect has what they think is a fully functional vacuum right there in the closet. You won't get anywhere pretending they don't in sales copy. Yet how many copywriters fail to answer the question "Why should I buy from you, given all my other options, including the option of doing nothing?"

        ...Understand the ******* product. Understand what you are selling. This will put you ahead of lots of people who only know some guy wrote a sales letter 57 years ago.

        ...Understand the competition. Too much copy, most especially on the web, is written in a competition free zone. Understand what competitors are doing, what their flaws are, and build your competitive advantage by exploiting those flaws.

        ...Understand the customer. The ultimate swipe file? The customer base. Most so-called copywriters can't segment a list, don't understand how to get basic information on customer psychology.

        ...Shut off the computer and employ some shoe leather. I had a terrible product; a shaving mug selling just about zero at retail POP displays. Went to a barber shop -- not Google. Found a business related selling angle and kept the product out of a landfill.

        So don't just study sales letters. Study salesmanship. Get out there and go face-to-face. Perform a demo. Get into the habit of feeling out when a prospect is ready to buy.

        If you don't understand salemanship, you can't expect to utter the phrase "salesmanship in print" and know what you're talking about.
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert_Rand
      Originally Posted by briancassingena View Post

      Ray must be a great copywriter if he has real sales experience. I know Dan Kennedy has it, Gary Halbert had it, I have it, plenty of the gurus I learnt from have sold face to face, nose to nose, toes to toes, sell-or-starve. I've been a broke starving salesman, then a top performing salesman, and now writing copy. Ray, you have quite a reputation here, I think I'll check out more of your work.
      definitely... copywriting is salesmanship in print.
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      • Profile picture of the author Angela Kambarian
        With the advent of the internet, face to face meetings are not
        essential. If you are based in Honolulu, you can easily do business
        with someone located in New Zealand.
        As pointed out before, self-confidence is essential, and you
        have to believe in your product. On the other hand, no matter
        how persuasive, assertive or convincing you are, you will not
        sell anything at all to people who do not have a strong need for
        your services. It's simple as that.

        I am also convinced that the best way to learn how to sell is to
        go out and do it. Learn as much as possible about your prospects,
        immerse yourself in their situation, uncover their deepest needs
        and show genuine concern. Selling is not ONLY about money.
        Selling has a lot to do with caring about people and wanting to
        help them. Open up your ears and listen to what they have to say.
        Besides, when responding to their comments try to repeat some of
        the words they say. For example, they may say that money is an issue for
        them. And you should say: "I understand. Money is an issue. However...."
        See my point?
        Good luck with your endeavors!
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        • Profile picture of the author D.K. Magnus
          I agree.

          The best thing I've learned, in my years of sales, both in home and in store, is to asked the right questions and listen to the answers.

          Some times it is very basic.

          If a salesperson approaches you in a store and ask can I help you, the response is likely to be: "No or I'm just looking."

          If the salesperson ask: "What can I help you find today?" It is usually the start of a conversation.

          A structured sales presentation also worked best for me. I always felt that you didn't leave anything out and covered some objections before they were asked. It also helps you to appear more knowledgable and proffessional.

          Just my experience.

          Originally Posted by Angela Kambarian View Post

          With the advent of the internet, face to face meetings are not
          essential. If you are based in Honolulu, you can easily do business
          with someone located in New Zealand.
          As pointed out before, self-confidence is essential, and you
          have to believe in your product. On the other hand, no matter
          how persuasive, assertive or convincing you are, you will not
          sell anything at all to people who do not have a strong need for
          your services. It's simple as that.

          I am also convinced that the best way to learn how to sell is to
          go out and do it. Learn as much as possible about your prospects,
          immerse yourself in their situation, uncover their deepest needs
          and show genuine concern. Selling is not ONLY about money.
          Selling has a lot to do with caring about people and wanting to
          help them. Open up your ears and listen to what they have to say.
          Besides, when responding to their comments try to repeat some of
          the words they say. For example, they may say that money is an issue for
          them. And you should say: "I understand. Money is an issue. However...."
          See my point?
          Good luck with your endeavors!
          Signature
          For unique, high quality articles go to http://www.warriorforum.com/warriors...ent-great.html
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  • Profile picture of the author Bigsofty
    I've had a lot of sales experience, direct nose-rubbing "sign here" sales of $30,000 kitchens and a bunch of other stuff.

    It does not, on it's own, make you a good copywriter.

    Yes, you know the terms and the principles, overcoming objections, building value, the trial close, the actual close, the funnel etc. Text is nothing like it.

    Worse position I had was with a company that would phone people and tell them you could have a free kitchen, no charge, ziltch, could they send someone tonight to measure up?

    Someone was me. I had to explain they MIGHT get a free kitchen, if their kitchen was picked to appear in our protional magazine, that was already printed and I was supposed to show them...

    See, lots of companies throw away perfectly good "magazines" in order to create new ones, or something. Bottom line, there was no free kitchen, I was there to sell one.

    Think you could handle that, by text?

    Not a &%$# chance.

    But much of what I learnt doing that, is useless for selling by text. They are two very different ways of selling.

    Go right ahead, exercise facial expressions, eye contact, match tone and tempo of speaking, work with personal space, probe their hot buttons and match your pitch to your prospect - by writing a letter to someone you've never met and inserting it in their favorite magazine or on the net somewhere? Cross your fingers.

    A major part of copywriting, and why I take around 2 or 3 weeks on a letter, is sniffing around to build a persona to sell to. Like any other letter, you need to know who you're writing to. That's just the start, THEN you need to actually get their attention and keep it long enough to get them to decide to act now.

    OK, let me sum it up like this. As a copywriter, if you hit a 10% success rate, ie 10% visitor to sales conversion, in most markets you'll be held upon grateful shoulders, carried around amidst cheers, as maidens wash your feet and decorate you with rare orchids.

    Bomb that terribly in direct selling and you're fired, yesterday.

    It's the same thing, selling. Totally different.

    Being a good salesman (or woman) will certainly give you a head start but that's all. Some of the best copywriters out there have never sold anything face to face. One of my most regular clients is a great salesman - but he can't write his way out a wet paper bag (thankfully...)

    Talking of which, I have work to do.


    B.
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  • Profile picture of the author John_S
    But much of what I learnt doing that, is useless for selling by text.
    While your experience might be so, not all sales experience is useless for text. Also, you miss the recent trend toward video used to boost text response.

    And lots of copywriters have face-to-face selling experience -- even if many don't.

    Much of these videos could use a lot of help.
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  • Profile picture of the author GuerrillaIM
    I have done lots of sales over the last 10 years both face to face and over the phone. I have a good understanding of the sales process and the decision making process a prospect goes through.

    I have read up on copywriting and now find I get the best results by selling a product myself, finding the angles and ways to overcome objection then write a rough draft of copy myself (which will make sales) and then get a copywriter to come in afterwards and jazz it up a little. I then can do AB split test with my copy vs the copy writers copy.
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