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Unread 13th January 2013, 12:04 AM   #51
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

The more books you read, the more
insight you get.

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Unread 13th January 2013, 05:06 AM   #52
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

I did some homework.

Consulted a number of the best selling NLP books on Amazon (thanks, Look Inside feature,) as well as what I assume (it's hard to tell) are the most authoritative NLP websites.

I was looking for one thing: A succinct definition.

First off, I was surprised at how few authors even bothered with a definition, even in what are purported to be beginner texts.

Most of the definitions I found were airy-fairy, defining the subject in terms of the benefits the authors claim can be derived from it.

Here are a representative few:

From NLP - The New Technology of Achievement - edited by Steve Andreas:

Sorry, Steve Andreas. A single thing can not be a study, an ability and a technology.

Let's try again...

From the NLP University website (they do certification or something):

My bullshit detector is causing the neighbor's dog to bark.

Can no one give a single sentence definition of NLP?

From Introducing NLP by Joseph O'Conner:

My apologies, Mr. O'Conner. I couldn't hear you over the neighbor's dog.

Yes, THANK YOU. Now we are getting somewhere.

Maybe if we go all the way back to NLP's beginnings we can gain even more clarity.

Let's ask Dr. Grinder. He was there.


Ahhhhhhhhhhhh! NLP is a modeling methodology. (Someone said that earlier. I hope he gets his coffee.) Thank you, professor.

It seems at some point NLPistas began to consider what was uncovered by use of their modeling methodology to be a part of that modeling methodology.

Say an NLPista used the modeling methodolgy and "discovered" that some writers who were geniuses at holding attention used nested loops in their work. He then considered his "discovery" to be part of NLP.

This is like Anton van Leeuwenhoek viewing red blood cells under his microscope and pronouncing to the world that red blood cells are part of microscope.

This might be a whole new logical fallacy. Conflating the object? Equating the thing observed with the tool used to make the observation.

It's like saying the rain outside my window is eyeball.

Like digging up buried treasure and declaring treasure a part of shovel.

Why not drop the silliness and instead of talking about NLP patterns, just talk about patterns? Nested loops and the lot have been used since ancient times.

Surely smart people can find better ways to differentiate their offerings than prefixing this silly monogram.
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Unread 13th January 2013, 05:18 AM   #53
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Funny. I've talked to quite a few A-listers who've told me straight out they think NLP is a load of crap.

Not to mention that scientifically, it's been pretty heavily discredited.

Of course, if someone is selling courses on NLP, then I can see why they would want to ignore the facts.

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Unread 13th January 2013, 06:01 AM   #54
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Marketeer View Post
Maybe some of you have mis-understood what Rezbi was trying to say in his OP.

Here's what I understood from his words:

"NLP isn't utter hogwash.

Yes, there are some elements which he wouldn't touch due to the reputation of certain characters.

However he sees it as a tool and there's some good in it worth using to enhance his copywriting.

At no point has he stated that NLP is going to replace the classic principles of copywriting."

-----

In copywriting you have different formulas/ different perspectives.

Each expert has their own formula that works for them.

In addition to that they borrow ideas from disciplines sometimes not directly related to copywriting.

NLP is a another framework within which to understand persuasion.

So I guess what he's saying is, why dismiss something completely when there is some benefit in it that can be used to enhance copywriting.

Please also note that he's not the first to say it.

There are other established copywriters that have also found NLP to have some benefit in it.

P.S. Different horses for different courses.
Someone who gets my take on this whole thing.
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Unread 13th January 2013, 03:57 PM   #55
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post
Sorry, Steve Andreas. A single thing can not be a study, an ability and a technology.
Really?

I studied IT. I have ability in IT. And IT is a technology.

And I'm pretty sure that's not restricted to IT.

Try rethinking that sentence.

Quote:
My bullshit detector is causing the neighbor's dog to bark.

Can no one give a single sentence definition of NLP?
No one could come up with a one sentence definition for copywriting until John E. Kennedy turned up.

Yet, I'm pretty certain copywriting was around a long time before he was.
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Unread 13th January 2013, 04:04 PM   #56
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post
John Carlton says NLP is way down the list of importance for must have elements...John mentions it here...John Carlton Internet Marketing Interview (Number 2) -**Internet Business Blog By James Schramko

Gary Bencivenga doesn't mention it in his persuasion equation.

Best,
Ewen
From that same interview:

Quote:
Q: What’s more important, injecting character, storytelling, or learning the ways of the NLP ninja?

John says storytelling and personality are way up the list of important things and go together because it’s hard to have a good personality without telling stories. Although NLP can be powerful, he thinks that personality and storytelling are your first choice weapons and NLP is way down the list.
Kinda like what I've been saying.

I never said NLP is the be-all and end-all.

First and foremost I'm a copywriter who has studied pretty much all the greats and with some of them personally.

My take, if you bothered to actually read what I've said, is that NLP is a tool that can be used in copywriting.

Something like what John is saying.
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Unread 13th January 2013, 04:05 PM   #57
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post
John Carlton says NLP is way down the list of importance for must have elements...John mentions it here...John Carlton Internet Marketing Interview (Number 2) -**Internet Business Blog By James Schramko

Gary Bencivenga doesn't mention it in his persuasion equation.

Best,
Ewen
Thanks for the link.

Do you think it's possible that some pro's keep some of their best techniques to themselves?

There are also some that publicly deny knowledge that they actually use.
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Unread 13th January 2013, 04:10 PM   #58
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Originally Posted by The Marketeer View Post
Thanks for the link.

Do you think it's possible that some pro's keep some of their best techniques to themselves?

There are also some that publicly deny knowledge that they actually use.
You're right.

Gary Bencivenga refused to do any courses or seminars until he was ready to retire.

Even I, a lowly copywriter, keep a few things back. Things I'll only be teaching in my upcoming (self-promotion ) course.

And even then I'll only teach the high-end ninja NLP stuff to my personal coaching and mentoring students.
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Unread 13th January 2013, 04:22 PM   #59
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Marketeer View Post
Thanks for the link.

Do you think it's possible that some pro's keep some of their best techniques to themselves?

There are also some that publicly deny knowledge that they actually use.
Possibly.

Gary Bencivenga said he did because he was competing against the very best.

When he retired he didn't have reason to hold back secrets on his retirement seminar and home study training.

He talked in easy to understand language,
not putting new labels on things or pointing to science.

If you only concentrated on 4 things you would create breakthroughs
was his simple message.

When the scientist who discovered the DNA,
he could tell the public what it is in 5 minutes
that could be understood.

Something inherently complicated as that he could distil it.

Some say if a person can't make the complicated easy to understand,
they either don't know the subject or are hoodwinking you.

Jack Trout wrote a book on the subject, Horse Sense.

Best,
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Unread 13th January 2013, 04:40 PM   #60
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post
I've studied linguistics and grammar structures. I hold a couple of degrees in language. So when I see someone talking about a revolutionary advance in the understanding of deep grammar structures, I'd like to know what it is.

As for NLP, I looked into it to see what all the rigamarole is about. People have told me that I was using it long before it became fashionable. Have I read extensively into it? No, just a few books. If there was an exciting new trove of persuasion techniques to learn, I would certainly want to learn them.

I don't see anything in it but unjustifiable claims, warmed over rhetorical devices that any salesman knows and a fervent, almost cultish devotion to it from people I wouldn't let wash my car.

At any rate, I made no fantastic claims concerning it, I simply wanted to see some concrete, tested results using NLP.

Can you supply them?

Can you tell me what physiological responses it triggers in the brain?

Can you tell me how its deep grammar structures differ from those posited by Chomsky?

Can you point out a single instance with measurable results where NLP techniques out-performed good, persuasive writing?
There's a lot I could say here, but I'm tired and need to sleep.

However, I do want to thank you for pointing out Noam Chomsky on language.

I'm a fan of some of some of his work. I didn't know he was involved on that side.
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Unread 13th January 2013, 04:40 PM   #61
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

I think we've gotten some of this argument mixed up.

NLP (I went NLP crazy a couple of years ago, devouring anything I could find on it) is to my understanding just a modelling technique.

That is, NLP is the art of finding a system or model that works and replicating it.

Or even better, finding out what it is about the system that is making it successful and replicating that.

So when people talk about language structures, and framing and anchoring and all the rest, that's not really NLP per se, but one of the systems that have been broken down using NLP.

So it's a bit chicken and egg I think here.

Guaranteed that some of that which is considered to be "NLP" was lifted from famous sales and copywriters, because they were systems that clearly worked.

Copywriters who are then studying NLP take those language patterns and apply them to their sales pages and say that they've integrated NLP... which is true, but also isn't.

I think the point i'm trying to make is that NLP itself is nothing more than a modelling system, and everything else that is called NLP are systems have have been broken down into core components.

Every time a system is broken down and replicated, it seems to go down under the banner of NLP, but really it should be called "a system that was broken down and replicated by NLP".

In one class that I was in a couple of the guys knew Grinder, and were talking about how he learned to rock-climb to a high level (heresay - i'm not saying that he became a competent rockclimber in a couple of weeks) just by hanging out with one of the world's top rock climbers and studying his technique and then modelling it.

Should I say that rock-climbing is now NLP, or that Grinder came up with a system of rock climbing that was modeled after a world champion rock climber by using NLP modelling techniques?

I hope I've said that right, I know what I mean!

Edit: Apologies to Pusateri, looks like you pretty much said exactly the same thing up above!

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Unread 13th January 2013, 04:58 PM   #62
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post
Really?

I studied IT. I have ability in IT. And IT is a technology.

And I'm pretty sure that's not restricted to IT.

Try rethinking that sentence.
You studied IT. IT is not a study.

You have ability in IT. IT is not an ability.

IT is a technology. By definition.

No need to rethink the sentence.

(note in case anyone is confused: IT is information technology. We are not screaming "it" at each other.)
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Unread 13th January 2013, 10:08 PM   #63
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

I broke my NLP cherry in the seduction world and can attest to the fact that it works. It worked better than anything else I learned in the community. The real problem with NLP is its name. Just the name "Neuro Linguistic programming" implies that things are being programmed at a neuron level. Which is stupid. This obviously can't be proven.

In fact, if you break the entire name down, it seems to lose credibility just on that basis. Yet on an emotional level, the name comes off highly credible. And that is a perfect example of what NLP is to me.

It uses 3 highly credible words, to create a perception that really isn't true. However, in the real world, a world dominated by schemas and emotions, perceptions become truth. Untill you get a bunch of scientists to sit down in a room and think about shit. Who'll wind up dismissing the entire foundation of NLP just based on its name. Which imo, is really stupid.

NLP to me, is organizing information in a specific way to elicit certain favored responses. Like, should I build rapport with a girl after I **** her, or before? Should I anchor patterns of dominance and social status, after a woman wins my approval or before? When we use to use patterns in the seduction community, everything seemed to affect a womans response. There were subtle ways of saying everything, w/out really saying anything. But it would still have the effect as if you said it.

Does this sound like hocus pocus?
I hope it does.

Maybe it takes 10 years of reading and applying, watching and practicing before you can spot someone using it on you. Maybe you think its fake. I don't really GAF TBPO.

NLP is the sole reason I got my first 3some in life. I was a virgin for a long time untill I started actively applying its principles. Its also the reason I do so well in my sales career 10 years later. And I believe its 100% why I also got on CBS. I will continue to use NLP till the day I die. People will continue to dismiss it, without ever really understanding it for what it is. When I think about NLP today, I think of the phrase "subliminal conditioning". They may both refer to different things, but NLP to me is precisely that.

Now please, waste more time arguing semantics. That will get you a lot farther in life than actually trying something useful with your time.

-Red
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Unread 13th January 2013, 11:33 PM   #64
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Now please, waste more time arguing semantics. That will get you a lot farther in life than actually trying something useful with your time.

-Red
Gee, Red. We're copywriters. Semantics is part of the gig. Semantics is also a large part of the modeling methodology called NLP.

I thought we were having a fun debate. Why you wanna cut it off?
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Unread 14th January 2013, 12:23 AM   #65
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

When someone who knows NLP uses the persuasive phrases it is the same as you use the persuasive phrases in your copy writing. It will work if you know how to use it, same as if you know how to write sales copy. If you don't know how to use it,m as you friend obviously does not, it will work as well as if I would write my own sales copy instead of hiring a professional copy writer.

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Unread 14th January 2013, 04:29 AM   #66
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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When someone who knows NLP uses the persuasive phrases it is the same as you use the persuasive phrases in your copy writing. It will work if you know how to use it, same as if you know how to write sales copy. If you don't know how to use it,m as you friend obviously does not, it will work as well as if I would write my own sales copy instead of hiring a professional copy writer.
Come again? :confused:

Hang on, I'll re-read it...

Nope.


Last edited by johndetlefs; 14th January 2013 at 04:30 AM. Reason: Re-read it, and still couldn't figure out what he was saying.
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Unread 16th January 2013, 03:44 AM   #67
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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I love watching these crash and burn threads.

This is where a person can proudly say, "I've never read a single book on NLP but dammit, I know what I'm talking about."

There is not a single A list copywriter that I know of - with one exception - who has not studied NLP.

"The greatest living copywriter" - who has trademarked his name - bought every single NLP product he could find.

A list copywriters who write for Boardroom, Agora, Phillips, and many more study NLP language patterns.

One of the top copywriters in the world writes his copy and then goes back to it to load it up with NLP patterns.

It's true. If you know nothing about NLP, you won't find anything in NLP that's not found in copy.

And don't get me started on people who have no clue about NLP and try to use it (badly) in a sales letter.

But if you haven't studied NLP, and you aren't familiar in depth with the transformational grammar structures at the heart of the language models, do yourself a favor.

Stop babbling.

The one copywriter who did not study NLP was Gary Halbert. He was irritated when people claimed he used NLP in his copy. I can't find the exchange of emails where someone tried to get Gary to "admit" he used "NLP" and Gary denied it. I doubt the WF would allow the language Gary used to be posted. He was not a fan.

Thanks Harlan. I was desperately hoping you'd do something to this thread to make it go in the right direction :-)

But let's admit it. It's pointless.

There are way too few people here who actually know what they are talking about when they mention Neuro-Linguistic Programming, and most of them are shouting their opinions around based on shallow impressions.

They know nothing, but of course they'll shout it anyway.

The stuff Harlan teaches, the stuff I teach, and the stuff we apply in our every day lives is making our communication - and our copywriting - a lot more effective.

This is not a question of opinion. It is a fact.

And of course people who doubt this can't be convinced about it until they try it themselves, and see it's effects on their lives and their communication.

But the thing is, this is not something I'd want to convince anyone to do.

Either you know it's for you and you learn it, or you don't, and you don't.

It's the same as choosing between a Windows and a Mac.

For some people it fits, for some it doesn't.

Why don't we just accept NLP as something a lot of people learn to make their copy and their communications more persuasive, and accept that it works for some people, while others will find it too strange for their taste.

I wonder if we, all of us, could do that without passing judgement and calling each other names, really.

Kind regards,

-Ben Racz

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Unread 16th January 2013, 05:56 AM   #68
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

I've first came into contact with NLP when I was 14 ... through Chris Howard. This stuff changed my life. It taught me about goal setting, language and effective communication and state control.

However ... since this is a copywriting forum, it's about NLP copywriting. I've studied NLP copywriting for a bit and while it's interesting to pace and lead, I don't do NLP copywriting per se.

In other words, it taught me some interesting tools but in some form or another, these tools existed in traditional salesmanship in print too.

As long as you learn NLP copywriting as a set of tools and not as a completely new framework to sell, different from traditional salesmanship, it can only help your conversion process.

Razvan
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Unread 16th January 2013, 09:52 PM   #69
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

Of course, if someone is selling courses on NLP, then I can see why they would want to ignore the facts.

-Daniel
Yep, that's pretty much the bottom line. Copywriters who use the term NLP to position themselves and sell products have a vested interest in perpetuating the myth.

Alex
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Unread 16th January 2013, 09:56 PM   #70
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post
It seems at some point NLPistas began to consider what was uncovered by use of their modeling methodology to be a part of that modeling methodology.

Say an NLPista used the modeling methodolgy and "discovered" that some writers who were geniuses at holding attention used nested loops in their work. He then considered his "discovery" to be part of NLP.

This is like Anton van Leeuwenhoek viewing red blood cells under his microscope and pronouncing to the world that red blood cells are part of microscope.

This might be a whole new logical fallacy. Conflating the object? Equating the thing observed with the tool used to make the observation.
Several of us have asked for proof. And have received none.

And I'm sure your excellent logical description will be met with an equal silence from the other side.

Alex
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Unread 17th January 2013, 02:38 AM   #71
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

Quote:
It seems at some point NLPistas began to consider what was uncovered by use of their modeling methodology to be a part of that modeling methodology.

Say an NLPista used the modeling methodolgy and "discovered" that some writers who were geniuses at holding attention used nested loops in their work. He then considered his "discovery" to be part of NLP.

This is like Anton van Leeuwenhoek viewing red blood cells under his microscope and pronouncing to the world that red blood cells are part of microscope.
And I'm sure your excellent logical description will be met with an equal silence from the other side.

Alex
I realize comparing apples with oranges is a specialty of copywriters, but blood cells as part of the equipment and not the area of study?

Let's say we go with that "logic"... so if you see the word "success" in a sales letter, because it is part of the English language, it cannot also be described as "copy" in that context? Similarly, if you read the word "love" in a poem, since it is English, it in combination with other words can't be described as poetry? Or "chicken" in a cookbook, isn't really part of a recipe, it's just English.

Hmmm... so much for copywriting or poetry then. It must all be just English or French or Italian or whatever the language is. I wish Lady GaGa would just stop singing that English! And can you return that English book? I feel like Beef Wellington for dinner.

The thing with NLP and persuasion/influence is that there are some distinctions not found elsewhere (I could be mistaken of course). I'm referring specifically to distinctions like Sleight of Mouth, the language patterns as initially mapped out by Dilts. Also the Milton model patterns which are based on Milton Erickson's use and articulation of language - yes, it came from Erickson's language but as far as I know he never sat down and set out the patterns specifically. That's what Bandler and Grinder did. They sat down, studied Erickson's work and pulled out the patterns. NLP doesn't claim technologies depicted elsewhere. As far as I'm aware there's no NLP cooking, NLP running or NLP golf.

But hey, as I mentioned above, do what works for you. If you are happy with your work and your results, that's great.

Scary good...
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Unread 17th January 2013, 06:51 AM   #72
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

NLP is a Complete Pseudoscience.

Take it from a psychologist.

The fact that this thread is so long bothers me, actually.

But I guess threads on astrology are the same way...

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Unread 17th January 2013, 08:31 AM   #73
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Personally, I can't stand the entire NLP thing...it bothers me to no end. The other day I was actually reading an old book (can't remember which one) and the author spoke of a copywriter/marketer who dealt in products geared to the (lower & up) middle class.

Whenever he finished his copy, he'd take it down to a local bar where some factory workers would grab drinks after their shift and buy them a round in exchange for them listening to his letter.

Eventually he got so good, some of the guys would start asking him how they could buy his product before the presentation was even done. No NLP there.
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Unread 17th January 2013, 11:38 AM   #74
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Some of you here don't half know how to post up some weird responses to this thread.

Look, NLP no one is saying you can't do without it.

If you don't want to study or use elements of NLP in your sales copy fair enough. That's up to you.

But attacking the opinions of those very highly experienced copywriters who do use NLP to a greater or lesser extent, who are you to criticize them for doing so?

What works for you, works for you.

Nobody is seeking to take away from you anything from your own arsenal that which you utilize to help make your copy sizzle.

So why not give those copywriters who do use NLP to a greater or lesser extent a break and enjoy the privilege of simply getting on with their business instead of challenging their expertise or doing your best to undermine their credibility in the game?

Harlan Kilstein has been in the copywriting business for decades, I'm sure he knows his business inside out.

He's not a fool. He's a very highly talented copywriter with a supreme amount of knowledge under his belt.

I don't honestly think he would choose to use a certain form of psychological persuasion if it had been proven beyond any shadow of doubt not to work. Give the gentleman some credit why don't you?

Rick Duris similarly. He's an NLP expert in his own right. Knows the subject inside out. One of a handful of top copywriters in the world. Right at the very top of his game.

Do you honestly think someone with Rick's intelligence would be using something, a persuasion technique if it was just an unproven pseudo science?

Give me a break for Pete's sake. Give the man some credit. He's been in the business like Harlan for a very long time and knows this business inside out.

If you don't want to use it yourself, simple answer, don't use it. Stick to what you know works for you best. If you do want to use it to good effect, excellent. What business is it of anyone else to take away from any one person the tools of their trade? To each their own.

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Unread 17th January 2013, 02:22 PM   #75
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Is NLP utter hogwash?

Let's ask Jon Benson and Mike Geary while they're counting their $1,000,000 a month just from truth about abs. (Loads of NLP in that VSL.)
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Unread 17th January 2013, 02:41 PM   #76
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Is NLP utter hogwash?

Let's ask Jon Benson and Mike Geary while they're counting their $1,000,000 a month just from truth about abs. (Loads of NLP in that VSL.)
Great!

Can you point out an instance of NLP in that VSL and tell us why it's NLP and not something that's been used and talked about for ages?
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Unread 17th January 2013, 02:46 PM   #77
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Great!

Can you point out an instance of NLP in that VSL and tell us why it's NLP and not something that's been used and talked about for ages?
Such a bad boy for asking for specifics!

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Unread 17th January 2013, 03:12 PM   #78
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I'm a fan of NLP but mostly of the books by Bandler and Grinder as I found most other books I've looked at to be mostly garbage. The problem with NLP is that forcing it into applications in marketing and copywriting will always fail. That's because NLP has nothing to do with marketing and is far removed from the lame parlor tricks so many "NLP Gurus" like to show off.

NLP was created as a therapeutic tool. It was meant to help people who were having serious issues in one way or another. It was meant to help people ease their social anxiety, to remove old guilt or overcome some other sort of fear. It was not meant to control anyone's mind.

NLP is really about the way in which the human brain processes information. Sure, it has a little to do with the structure of sentences and reactions to certain words but, overall, it is about the way we process and internalize certain external stimuli. It's about gaining a better understanding of the human thought process but not in a textbook sense.

Is there a lot, I mean A LOT, of garbage surrounding NLP? YES! Just as there are tons of pure garbage regarding Ericksonian Hypnosis. The truth is that many people may like to talk about NLP but very few of them have read any of the Bandler and Grinder books. Most people have not gone to the source material and are, therefore, stuck with an improper understanding of NLP.

Using anything learned from NLP for marketing is actually somewhat unethical although possibly unavoidable. NLP can work quite well for helping people but it isn't a cure all. It can help someone overcome social anxiety but it isn't going to magically stop them from smoking or eating cake if that's what they like to do.

The real trick to NLP is helping a person understand something from a different perspective. It's almost as simple as helping someone take a big task and break it up into small manageable tasks.

There are no magic words in NLP but certain words can be interpreted and internalized in different ways while still meaning the same thing as other words. Cost vs Investment, for example.

Part of the reason Bandler and Grinder are not popular in the therapeutic industry is because much of what they wrote about is hard to reproduce. It isn't a mechanical procedure like surgery, it can't be done by just anyone after only a brief summary.

To make NLP effective you MUST study other related subjects. You have to understand how people think and why they react the way they do. You need to have a solid understanding of many different fundamental elements of the human thought process before you can understand how NLP works.

NLP isn't magic. It does, however, have some very interesting concepts which may or may not have applications in marketing and copywriting if you understand how to apply them.

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Unread 17th January 2013, 03:38 PM   #79
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Great!

Can you point out an instance of NLP in that VSL and tell us why it's NLP and not something that's been used and talked about for ages?
Absolutely good sir! Second sentence: Pattern Interrupt.

The Pattern Interrupt is an old NLP technique. While human beings have no doubt been using pattern interrupts accidentally or deliberately before NLP came along, it's been extensively modeled and developed quite a bit by Bandler and Grinder.

Next up: Pacing. "First, I'm gonna tell you a story, which is probably similar to your own..." Pacing is a powerful rapport generating technique, and is used quite a bit among NLP practitioners because it makes everything else that follows easier. Persuasion is easier when you've first established rapport. No rapport = no sale.

Next: Hypnotic Storytelling w/metaphors. If you ever have a chance to listen to someone like Richard Bandler doing is thing, you'll be amazed at how often it just sounds like he's telling a bunch of stories. Of course, within the story he's loading them up with embedded commands, presuppositions, leading statements, metaphors and other mild trance-inducing mind f*ckery...but to the listener it just sounds "like a story."

NLP is not all new stuff though. The creators came up with it from modeling other great persuaders, hypnotists, salesmen, etc. If you want to learn more about it, I suggest checking out Jon Benson's VSL course where he goes over quite a bit of NLP techniques. It will make your head spin.
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Unread 17th January 2013, 04:01 PM   #80
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Absolutely good sir! Second sentence: Pattern Interrupt.

The Pattern Interrupt is an old NLP technique. While human beings have no doubt been using pattern interrupts accidentally or deliberately before NLP came along, it's been extensively modeled and developed quite a bit by Bandler and Grinder.

Next up: Pacing. "First, I'm gonna tell you a story, which is probably similar to your own..." Pacing is a powerful rapport generating technique, and is used quite a bit among NLP practitioners because it makes everything else that follows easier. Persuasion is easier when you've first established rapport. No rapport = no sale.

Next: Hypnotic Storytelling w/metaphors. If you ever have a chance to listen to someone like Richard Bandler doing is thing, you'll be amazed at how often it just sounds like he's telling a bunch of stories. Of course, within the story he's loading them up with embedded commands, presuppositions, leading statements, metaphors and other mild trance-inducing mind f*ckery...but to the listener it just sounds "like a story."

NLP is not all new stuff though. The creators came up with it from modeling other great persuaders, hypnotists, salesmen, etc. If you want to learn more about it, I suggest checking out Jon Benson's VSL course where he goes over quite a bit of NLP techniques. It will make your head spin.

Still don't know how I feel about NLP, but thanks for that info. I was watching a Frank Kern video on Youtube the other day and, now that I think about it, it seems like they were using the "pattern interrupt" a ton for a 20 minute interview.

It seemed to work, too! Every time I found my attention starting to drift, I heard the pattern interrupt sound and refocused on the video.

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Unread 17th January 2013, 04:04 PM   #81
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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NLP is responsible for pacing, narrative, metaphor, meter and leading statements? I'm amazed that anyone ever sold anything before the advent of this revolutionary technique.

No, NLP is not new stuff. People have been selling useless nostrums, quack medicines, airy notions and fraudulent claims for a long time.

NLP is just another in the line.
Never said NLP is "responsible" for those things, but I appreciate you putting words in my mouth at any rate. Good show!
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Unread 17th January 2013, 04:13 PM   #82
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Absolutely good sir! Second sentence: Pattern Interrupt.

The Pattern Interrupt is an old NLP technique. While human beings have no doubt been using pattern interrupts accidentally or deliberately before NLP came along, it's been extensively modeled and developed quite a bit by Bandler and Grinder.

Next up: Pacing. "First, I'm gonna tell you a story, which is probably similar to your own..." Pacing is a powerful rapport generating technique, and is used quite a bit among NLP practitioners because it makes everything else that follows easier. Persuasion is easier when you've first established rapport. No rapport = no sale.

Next: Hypnotic Storytelling w/metaphors. If you ever have a chance to listen to someone like Richard Bandler doing is thing, you'll be amazed at how often it just sounds like he's telling a bunch of stories. Of course, within the story he's loading them up with embedded commands, presuppositions, leading statements, metaphors and other mild trance-inducing mind f*ckery...but to the listener it just sounds "like a story."

NLP is not all new stuff though. The creators came up with it from modeling other great persuaders, hypnotists, salesmen, etc. If you want to learn more about it, I suggest checking out Jon Benson's VSL course where he goes over quite a bit of NLP techniques. It will make your head spin.
All things that were used and discussed before Bandler and Grinder came along.

What make them NLP?
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Unread 17th January 2013, 05:02 PM   #83
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What makes me skeptical about NLP is that it's creator, Richard Bandler, is so overweight. I mean if the stuff he teaches work, why not apply them on his physical health? Then I thought he could be sick but he mentioned in an interview that he does not think he is fat. Draw your own conclusion from that.
That is kind of funny and kind of sad, but of course doesn't disprove it's usefulness, any more than a mechanic's crappy car proves she can't fix one when she takes the time to.

I did walk out on an NLP event once, when I realized the teachers weren't very enthused, and took a smoke break. One of the uses of NLP is to stop habits such as that. My belief that NLP works wasn't shaken, but I didn't wish to learn if from those who don't use it in their own lives.

Tony Robbins proved many times that it works, and is the best example to my knowledge, of someone who produced incredible results with it in his life and the lives of many others.
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Unread 17th January 2013, 05:20 PM   #84
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Honestly, if anyone wants to learn about NLP then just go to the source. Pick up a copy of NLP by Grinder and Bandler (if you can find one) and read it yourself. I got my copy for $1 but book hunting is a bit of a hobby for me.

Ignore anything by any other author until you've read the source material.

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Unread 17th January 2013, 05:25 PM   #85
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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NLP is a Complete Pseudoscience.

Take it from a psychologist.

The fact that this thread is so long bothers me, actually.

But I guess threads on astrology are the same way...
Well, if a psychologist said it's nonsense, I guess that settles it; psychologists are never wrong about what works and what doesn't. Every theory learned in school is proven beyond a doubt, and totally contradicts NLP. :rolleyes:
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Unread 17th January 2013, 05:56 PM   #86
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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There's a lot I could say here, but I'm tired and need to sleep.

However, I do want to thank you for pointing out Noam Chomsky on language.

I'm a fan of some of some of his work. I didn't know he was involved on that side.
Any thread that causes Noam Chomsky ("arguably the most important intellectual alive"-NYT) to be mentioned in a marketing forum, is a good thread.

For those of us who tend to get very vociferous, even belittling the other side in debating our views, I just found a nice exchange in an interview with Professor Chomsky that might remind us to take it down a notch:

Q: "Do you ever doubt your own ideas?"


Chomsky: "All the time. You should read what happens in linguistics. I keep changing what I said. Any person who is intellectually alive changes his ideas. If anyone at a university is teaching the same thing they were teaching five years ago, either the field is dead, or they haven't been thinking."

(for those unfamiliar with his reputation, Chomsky is a major figure in linguistics, so much that linguists have often used the terms "BC" and "AC", meaning before Chomsky and after Chomsky. If he keeps changing his ideas regarding linguistics, perhaps it would be wise for the rest of us to keep an open mind).

Keeping that in mind, it's entirely possible to imagine that those who currently swear by NLP will be calling it nonsense 5 years from now, while the debunkers might be making a career of it. Humans have a habit of lasting long enough to be embarrassed by their own opinions and diatribes promoting them.
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Unread 17th January 2013, 06:10 PM   #87
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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NLP is a Complete Pseudoscience.

Take it from a psychologist.

The fact that this thread is so long bothers me, actually.

But I guess threads on astrology are the same way...
At the risk of ending this thread - it's long enough - the penny drops.

I used this subject with the specific intention of getting a lot of comments.

I knew this would get emotional responses from people on both sides of the equation.

All I care about is that it worked.

I'm a copywriter who is willing to use various methods to make my copy better. NLP is just one of those tools.

I couldn't care less how anyone feels about anything. If it works, I use it.

The only thing that would prevent me using something is if it's unethical.

And NLP, just like other types of persuasion, can be used for good and bad.
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Unread 17th January 2013, 09:23 PM   #88
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At the risk of ending this thread - it's long enough - the penny drops.

I used this subject with the specific intention of getting a lot of comments.

I knew this would get emotional responses from people on both sides of the equation.


All I care about is that it worked.

No offense, friend, but that isn't NLP. I believe they call it trolling.

I really mean no offense, I'm not calling you anything, I'm just pointing out the difference between what is actually NLP and what can be misconstrued as NLP.

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Unread 17th January 2013, 11:27 PM   #89
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All things that were used and discussed before Bandler and Grinder came along.

What make them NLP?
Nothing. From what I understand, I don't think Bandler or Grinder claim to have created anything at all. They only took things they observed people doing anyway and named them and perhaps expanded on them a bit.
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Unread 17th January 2013, 11:59 PM   #90
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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I'm a copywriter who is willing to use various methods to make my copy better. NLP is just one of those tools.
I think this is the best way to look at it. At the end of the day, NLP is a tool (a fairly unscientific one at that, although I'm sure some will disagree) that's used to increase compliance. It's NOT the foundation of good copy, and terrible copy that effectively uses NLP isn't going to work any better than good copy that ignores it.

Whether or not NLP itself is effective, many of the principles behind it and the supposed methods have a lot in common with basic persuasion and will be of benefit to your copy. Quit arguing and TEST copy with and without NLP to see which works the best.
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Unread 18th January 2013, 12:42 AM   #91
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Nothing. From what I understand, I don't think Bandler or Grinder claim to have created anything at all. They only took things they observed people doing anyway and named them and perhaps expanded on them a bit.
I think you hit on a good point Sean...

And maybe that's what it all comes down to. I mean, look at how many info-products selling at 2k+ and seminars for 20k+, teach information anybody can get with classic literature.

It's all recycled. But of course that doesn't mean it's useless...

For example, I enjoy Clayton, Eugene and Bencivenga's perception on selling even though their formulas and practicalities have already been preached by John Caples, Lasker and Hopkins...

Some may prefer NLP - and even though it sounds bogus, if it helps their copywriting life, then let them be. Kinda like Christians vs Atheists...

Even though one side might sound crazy, if it helps them in life then let them follow their beliefs as long as no one is being unethical.
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Unread 18th January 2013, 01:57 AM   #92
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No offense, friend, but that isn't NLP. I believe they call it trolling.

I really mean no offense, I'm not calling you anything, I'm just pointing out the difference between what is actually NLP and what can be misconstrued as NLP.
So where in that post did I claim it's NLP, huh, clever clogs?

If you're going to accuse someone of trolling get your facts straight.
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Unread 18th January 2013, 12:40 PM   #93
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I still don't know what NLP is. You ask ten different people you get ten different answers.
Dude, I hear you. It's branding. Everyone has to put their own personal twist on it to position themselves as an anomaly.

I wrote a post about this last week, it all boils down to human need psychology. Once you get that, you don't need NLP because you understand the principles behind it.

Here's the post:

http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ersuasion.html

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Unread 18th January 2013, 12:42 PM   #94
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I still don't know what NLP is. You ask ten different people you get ten different answers.
Speaking of, I'm still not sure what "hogwash" even is?

Is it an verb or a noun?

Is it what's left over after the hog is washed?

Is it the debris washed off of the Hog?

The futile act of washing a hog?

Might make for an equally meaningful discussion lol

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Unread 18th January 2013, 12:44 PM   #95
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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You are quite a nice boy, aren't you Mark?
You coming onto me again Ken? Would be flattered if it wasn't for the fact you're dog ugly and not my type. No offense darlin'.

Quote:
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No offense, friend, but that isn't NLP. I believe they call it trolling.

I really mean no offense, I'm not calling you anything, I'm just pointing out the difference between what is actually NLP and what can be misconstrued as NLP.
A contradiction in terms if ever I saw one. Of course you're calling him a troll.

Whilst Rezbi might be many things, trolling this forum isn't one of the things he is guilty of. He's a copywriter, it's his job to generate responses, get under the skin, irk and rile up emotional responses or replies to thought provoking threads.

If he wasn't doing this, he wouldn't be doing his job properly. It's what we do.

Bet you thought Rezbi you'd never see the day me sticking up for you lol. Ya pain.

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Speaking of, I'm still not sure what "hogwash" even is?
Hogwash is cagmag. Piffle. Codswallop. Tripe. Balderdash. Or any one of a number of similar words when used in this context.

For clarification purposes.


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Unread 18th January 2013, 03:41 PM   #96
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Bet you thought Rezbi you'd never see the day me sticking up for you lol. Ya pain.
Nah.

I know I've laid into you before, but I say it like I see it. And I'll continue to do so.

If I think you're doing something wrong I'll say so. Conversely, if I see you do something right I'll also say so.

And that goes for anyone else, too.

I expect others will do the same to me.

Credit where credit is due. End of story.
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Unread 20th January 2013, 09:47 PM   #97
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

Since there's nothing in NLP that doesn't exist in copy:

Can one of you experts who have never studied NLP point me in the direction of shifting temporal predicates in non-NLP copy?

How about about shifting person between second and third person?

How about changing someone's higherarchy of criteria?

Kindly cite the copywriters using these techniques.

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Unread 20th January 2013, 10:03 PM   #98
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

For those who may be unaware...

"Shifting temporal predicates" = Changing the words to deal with time. Often used to put problems in a past tense and good stuff in a future tense.

An example would be future pacing, done in pretty much every sales letter ever written. And it also existed long before NLP.

It also refers to presuppositions, ie. "how soon will you have that contract signed and back to me?" The "embedded command" is basically that they've already made a decision to sign it, and now they just have to get it back to you. Works more often than I would expect (though more so for "easy" purchases where there's little resistance). But I wouldn't call it an invention of NLP.

Again.. nothing new.

"Second position" relates to vividly experiencing an event that isn't happening to you. A lot of sales letters use this in a story way... drawing the reader in to feel the shame/sorrow/guilt/joy/success/failure of the avatar of the story. Third person comes in a few forms, but is basically anything that isn't second or first (ie. actually happening to you).

I'm sure you've all seen this done a few times.

"Heirachy of criteria" is basically just people's priorities. E.g. are they more interested in eating that slice of cake or looking good at the beach? Saving money or buying your product? Etc.

Every sales letter I've ever written has a value justification that changes this. "Sure, it seems like a lot, but..."

Notice NLP likes to use confusing phrases to describe something people have been doing for a long-ass time. Also notice there's nothing that special about what they're saying. It's old stuff in a new wrapper. Which is fine, until the NLPers get up in arms about "it's special and different! It's NLP!"

No... it's basic psychology packaged in a new one. NLP is a marketing ploy, nothing more. And an effective one at that.

I'm not here to dispute the value of certain "NLP techniques". Usually they're solid ideas with different words or angles... nothing new. A lot of them work.

That doesn't change the fact it's not NLP. It's persuasion by a different name. I can't suddenly pretend I made up modern day construction techniques by calling a hammer a "nail pounder". And that's essentially what a lot of NLP guys do.

But don't take my word for it...

Google it, and check out how much of it has already been covered in old school psychology textbooks and sales/copywriting training.

-Daniel

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Unread 20th January 2013, 10:07 PM   #99
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post
Speaking of, I'm still not sure what "hogwash" even is?

Is it an verb or a noun?

Is it what's left over after the hog is washed?

Is it the debris washed off of the Hog?

The futile act of washing a hog?

Might make for an equally meaningful discussion lol
If the hog is washed but there's no one around to hear it, does it still make those weird hog sounds?

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Unread 21st January 2013, 05:37 AM   #100
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Default Re: Is NLP Utter Hogwash?

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Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post
For those who may be unaware...

"Shifting temporal predicates" = Changing the words to deal with time. Often used to put problems in a past tense and good stuff in a future tense.

An example would be future pacing, done in pretty much every sales letter ever written. And it also existed long before NLP.

It also refers to presuppositions, ie. "how soon will you have that contract signed and back to me?" The "embedded command" is basically that they've already made a decision to sign it, and now they just have to get it back to you. Works more often than I would expect (though more so for "easy" purchases where there's little resistance). But I wouldn't call it an invention of NLP.

Again.. nothing new.
This pretty much summarizes your response.

You don't know what you are talking so you say it's something else.

Shifting temporal predicates is a presupposition? Nonsense. Only in your world.

It has NOTHING to do with future pacing.

It has NOTHING to do with embedded commands which DO NOT work in copy at all.

And they have nothing to shifting "words".

Do you not know the definition of "predicate"?

The rest of your comments were equally off target.

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