First-time copywriting attempt

17 replies
Hello, all -

After years of messing around with ebooks, nearly infinite amounts of reading, buying various courses, etc., I'm finally doing what I should have done in the first place: diving in and doing it. I've put together a site for a friend, who is a very talented photographer with a unique subject, and am trying to... well, do *everything* all at once (since I have no idea of what to focus on first.)

Fortunately, I'm pretty good at all the technical stuff - that's my background. I'm also aware of most of the tech behind making commercial sites work - CMSes, auto-responders, PHP, JavaScript, and so on; I've been putting that stuff together for years.

What I'm missing, though, is any kind of an idea of how to structure a presentation - or whether the copy I'm writing is any good. For the moment, I've run myself into a corner trying to figure it out: I've got two pages with what I laughingly call my attempt at copywriting... and I have no idea of *where* to present it, how it should be organized, and how it should lead to the actual shopping cart. I would really, really appreciate it if you folks could check it out and give me some ideas on how to proceed; any clues at all would be very much appreciated.

Site:
Art of Kamchatka

Squeeze page (I suppose...)
The Art of Your Life : Art of Kamchatka

"Shopping cart", of sorts:
Beauty in your home : Art of Kamchatka

Thanks in advance for any help!
#attempt #copywriting #copywriting 101 #copywriting advice needed #first time #firsttime
  • Profile picture of the author sabinavarga
    First, good for you that you're "finally diving into it" .

    Second, your lack of confidence will and does show in your writing. Nobody got it right the first time (I think). But if you're hoping to persuade anybody, you have to write it like you mean it, not like you're afraid of it (the product/the copy/the reader/the website).

    Third, copywriting is a conversation with the reader. Good copywriting creates vivid imagery, but it does so effortlessly, not with long sentences and stacked adjectives.

    And, last (and maybe this should have been the first), you're losing everyone at the headline. It's vague and confusing and it doesn't communicate anything to the reader.

    When you simply have no idea where to begin and how to continue, look at similar websites and see how they do it.

    Hope it helps, good luck!
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    • Profile picture of the author bluewatersailor
      Originally Posted by sabinavarga View Post

      First, good for you that you're "finally diving into it" .

      Second, your lack of confidence will and does show in your writing. Nobody got it right the first time (I think). But if you're hoping to persuade anybody, you have to write it like you mean it, not like you're afraid of it (the product/the copy/the reader/the website).

      Third, copywriting is a conversation with the reader. Good copywriting creates vivid imagery, but it does so effortlessly, not with long sentences and stacked adjectives.

      And, last (and maybe this should have been the first), you're losing everyone at the headline. It's vague and confusing and it doesn't communicate anything to the reader.
      Awesome - thank you! I needed that feedback. As for confidence, well... I guess it'll have to be based on learning instead of experience, for the first while. Seems like I'll have to hang around here and learn from watching you experts, but then I was planning on doing that anyway.

      When you simply have no idea where to begin and how to continue, look at similar websites and see how they do it.

      Hope it helps, good luck!
      It's definitely helpful, thanks - although I'll have to broaden the meaning of the term "competition" to find anything useful. I've looked at the actual competition - what there is of it - and it is... inept. I don't think I can find a kinder word. We're talking sites that look like they were hacked out of raw electrons with a large ax by a color-blind alien who has heard of websites but never seen any. Just a bunch of largish thumbnails on a dark blue background, and a list of prices next to them. No guarantee; heck, no copy *period*. They've got an aWeber opt-in box, though. At the bottom of the page.

      I'm hoping to learn well enough and fast enough - I'm actually *good* at that - to give lots and lots of value in addition to the product, and get ahead that way. Besides, I love writing... that should be of some help in moving forward, I hope!

      Again, thanks very much for the help.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
    Originally Posted by bluewatersailor View Post


    What I'm missing, though, is any kind of an idea of how to structure a presentation - or whether the copy I'm writing is any good. For the moment, I've run myself into a corner trying to figure it out: I've got two pages with what I laughingly call my attempt at copywriting... and I have no idea of *where* to present it, how it should be organized, and how it should lead to the actual shopping cart.
    Does it really make sense to you to open the door by banging your head against it... instead of simply turning the knob and pushing it open?

    Pick up a book or two on the subject.

    Alex
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    • Profile picture of the author bluewatersailor
      Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

      Does it really make sense to you to open the door by banging your head against it... instead of simply turning the knob and pushing it open?

      Pick up a book or two on the subject.

      Alex
      Hmm, something to be said for doing that. So I did.

      Non-exhaustive list (and yes, I read them carefully; some of them several times by this point):

      The Robert Collier Letter Book
      "Scientific Advertising", by Claude C. Hopkins
      Gary Halbert's "Boron Letters"
      Every Halbert letter and ad at Bond Halbert's site
      Gary Biencivenga's "Bullets"
      Jason Fladlien's "Webinar Pitch Secrets"
      Yanik Silver's "34 Rules for Maverick Entrepreneurs"
      "Getting Everything You Can Out of All You've Got", Jay Abraham
      (about 90% done with this one)

      ...and a number of others.

      The problem is putting it all together, and understanding what applies where; until I do, it's just a mass of information. The way to do that is - to the best of my knowledge - by applying it, which essentially comes down to throwing yourself against brick walls until they break down, or you do. Which is what I'm doing now... with the help of the kind folks here making the landings just a little bit softer, and the learning process just a little quicker.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
        Originally Posted by bluewatersailor View Post

        Hmm, something to be said for doing that. So I did.

        Non-exhaustive list (and yes, I read them carefully; some of them several times by this point):

        The Robert Collier Letter Book
        "Scientific Advertising", by Claude C. Hopkins
        Gary Halbert's "Boron Letters"
        Every Halbert letter and ad at Bond Halbert's site
        Gary Biencivenga's "Bullets"
        Jason Fladlien's "Webinar Pitch Secrets"
        Yanik Silver's "34 Rules for Maverick Entrepreneurs"
        "Getting Everything You Can Out of All You've Got", Jay Abraham
        (about 90% done with this one)

        ...and a number of others.

        The problem is putting it all together, and understanding what applies where; until I do, it's just a mass of information. The way to do that is - to the best of my knowledge - by applying it, which essentially comes down to throwing yourself against brick walls until they break down, or you do. Which is what I'm doing now... with the help of the kind folks here making the landings just a little bit softer, and the learning process just a little quicker.
        Good to hear you read all those books.

        Sounds like what you need to know at this point then is how to structure a sales letter.

        There are dozens of structures you could use. David Frey has a good one as does Yanik Silver:

        Frey: 12-Step Foolproof Sales Letter Formula | Small Business Marketing Ideas, Best Practices and Expert Advice

        Silver: 14 Point Web Copy Analysis by Yanik Silver | Original Adventures in Internet Marketing

        Either one would be a good place for a beginner to start.

        Alex
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        • Profile picture of the author bluewatersailor
          Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

          Sounds like what you need to know at this point then is how to structure a sales letter.

          There are dozens of structures you could use. David Frey has a good one as does Yanik Silver:

          Frey: 12-Step Foolproof Sales Letter Formula | Small Business Marketing Ideas, Best Practices and Expert Advice

          Silver: 14 Point Web Copy Analysis by Yanik Silver | Original Adventures in Internet Marketing
          I'm obviously on the right track - just read that last one yesterday. I'll also carefully re-read Frey's page later (just went over it.) Thanks for the pointers and the confirmation!

          The main thing that's I'm trying to figure out right now is how to adapt those methods to what I'm doing. I don't think I can use the high-pressure approach that both of the above outline; that probably won't do much for the intended audience.


          THE SECRET OF NOT LOOKING TRASHY AND LOW-CLASS
          Don't spend another day being laughed at by your friends!

          If you find yourself sitting in your dingy apartment, surrounded by blank walls and wondering why you can't get a date - if you catch yourself looking at the gas pipe and wondering if the clothesline is strong enough to hold you up by the neck - we understand how you feel.

          ...


          But I haven't had much luck finding examples of a lower-key approach, so I'm having to invent this as I go along - and not having much experience, I'm not doing very well. I also haven't found much in a way of examples - although I recall some jewelry ads I've seen that were pretty low-key but seemed quite effective.

          Any suggestions in that direction? Again, thank you for the help so far!


          Ben
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          • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
            Originally Posted by bluewatersailor View Post

            I'm obviously on the right track - just read that last one yesterday. I'll also carefully re-read Frey's page later (just went over it.) Thanks for the pointers and the confirmation!

            The main thing that's I'm trying to figure out right now is how to adapt those methods to what I'm doing. I don't think I can use the high-pressure approach that both of the above outline; that probably won't do much for the intended audience.


            THE SECRET OF NOT LOOKING TRASHY AND LOW-CLASS
            Don't spend another day being laughed at by your friends!

            If you find yourself sitting in your dingy apartment, surrounded by blank walls and wondering why you can't get a date - if you catch yourself looking at the gas pipe and wondering if the clothesline is strong enough to hold you up by the neck - we understand how you feel.

            ...


            But I haven't had much luck finding examples of a lower-key approach, so I'm having to invent this as I go along - and not having much experience, I'm not doing very well. I also haven't found much in a way of examples - although I recall some jewelry ads I've seen that were pretty low-key but seemed quite effective.

            Any suggestions in that direction? Again, thank you for the help so far!


            Ben
            I think maybe you're confusing persuasion with hype.

            Get inside the mind of your prospects and then write your sales copy conversationally.

            Based on your issues, it sounds like you're at the point where you need a mentor to help you get unstuck. Otherwise you'll likely spend a lot of time and effort trying to get everything right.

            Alex
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            • Profile picture of the author bluewatersailor
              Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

              I think maybe you're confusing persuasion with hype.
              I guess what I was trying to say is "what I mostly see is hype; what I'd like to learn is persuasion". Although I don't yet have enough knowledge to draw a sharp line between the two, that's my goal in learning copywriting.

              Get inside the mind of your prospects and then write your sales copy conversationally.
              Yep, got that idea. (Between Gary Halbert and John Carlton hammering away at it, they managed to drive it into my brain, thank the Universe for small favors. ) Doing it, of course, is a different kettle of fish - but I'm sure trying. It's one of the few things that I *do* have clarity on; now it's just a question of getting it right.

              Based on your issues, it sounds like you're at the point where you need a mentor to help you get unstuck. Otherwise you'll likely spend a lot of time and effort trying to get everything right.

              Alex
              Thank you - that's a useful milepost for me. I don't know that I'm quite ready for a mentor right now, but the idea seems like the right thing for the non-too-distant future.

              Ben
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          • Profile picture of the author Andrew Gould
            Originally Posted by bluewatersailor View Post

            But I haven't had much luck finding examples of a lower-key approach, so I'm having to invent this as I go along - and not having much experience, I'm not doing very well. I also haven't found much in a way of examples - although I recall some jewelry ads I've seen that were pretty low-key but seemed quite effective.
            The J. Peterman Company is the place to go for quality, "low key" copy.

            [EDIT] Beaten by Joe...
            Signature

            Andrew Gould

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  • Profile picture of the author sabinavarga
    Originally Posted by bluewatersailor View Post

    As for confidence, well... I guess it'll have to be based on learning instead of experience, for the first while.
    Maybe it should be based on both. You can read a lot and that helps, but, from my experience, you will only get more confident by practicing; by making mistakes, and by overcoming them (and here is where books, and courses, and more experienced copywriters can help).
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    • Profile picture of the author bluewatersailor
      Originally Posted by sabinavarga View Post

      Maybe it should be based on both. You can read a lot and that helps, but, from my experience, you will only get more confident by practicing; by making mistakes, and by overcoming them (and here is where books, and courses, and more experienced copywriters can help).
      In that case, I'm on the right track. Read a lot - check. Practicing now: check. Making mistakes: CHECK. Courses: check (bought John Carlton's "Kick-Ass Copywriting Secrets of a Marketing Rebel", on the schedule to be read this coming weekend.) More experienced copywriters... I guess that's you folks, and your advice has already been very valuable. Thank you.

      I'll be hanging around, and if any of you have questions about the technical bits - WordPress, PHP, setting up a site, etc. - feel free to ask. After thirty-some years in the computer field, I might have some useful ideas on that stuff.
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  • Just a comment on your site setup: In my humble but correct opinion, too many photography websites lead with a single slide show. Yes, that is the product. Yes, her photos are great. But that is not all the customer is buying.

    All the copy that provides context is buried in bios, about us pages and such. If it's possible, I would match each image with more copy. Explain when it was shot, where, how, more info about the subject, etc. Romance the photos with great copy as I'm looking at them.

    For example, why are the great stories behind this artist's work buried in the bio page?
    Biography | Steve McCurry

    This is where so many sites miss opportunity. The story IS the product. I would move the stories front and center.

    Similarly, for your site, I recommend matching the great photos with much more background. Since I am a dumb American, I had to look up where Kamchatka is. Put all that information upfront. So when somebody lands on the site they can quickly find out what it is and where they are. You have all this info but it is buried.

    For example, under "the Artist" you say "Kamchatka's winters often border on the brutal, freezing the land rock-solid until the sun of spring again warms the land. As if to make up for this, the summers are times of sudden abundance: berries and mushrooms sprout in profusion unimaginable in milder climates, the streams teem with huge, summer-fat salmon and trout, the woods are packed with wild game, and the lakes are black with ducks and geese."

    Wow, get that stuff out in the open where it can breathe. Notice how Saddleback Leather tells you their story right on the front page:
    Saddleback Leather Co.
    You can buy leather products anywhere. But they have built a brand on the story.

    Notice how J Peterman sells socks.
    English Socks > Accessories et al. | The J. Peterman Company
    You would have bought these at Piccadilly Circus to watch Don Budge win Wimbledon. These socks have been handmade in England by Scott-Nichol for over a hundred years.

    Sure, they are great socks, but they are still friggin' socks. But they give you a story.

    Think of it this way. Let's say you are the artist and you have a shop called the Art of Kamchatka in Manhattan. Some upscale people walk in. What would you say about the photography for sale to kindle their desire?

    You might say, "Hi folks. Welcome to the Art of Kamchatka. Have you been here before?

    Oh! It's a good thing you came in today because I just got these pieces back. I LOVE this shot. Look at these two locking horns. I took this shot from a Chinook helicopter on the last day of winter. These two are fighting over a girl. Can you believe it?...

    Let me give you some background. Kamchatka is the northern part of Russia, kind of like Alaska. The wild beauty is stunning. I grew up there and started taking pictures of wildlife when I was in high school. My dad was a bounty hunter. He says Dog the Bounty Hunter is a pussy! While he was capturing outlaws, I would shoot pictures of snow eagles...Look at this other shot here, another amazing picture. Do you folks buy a lot of artwork? Really, this would be great in an office or den....."

    Tell me a story.
    Signature
    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
    - Jack Trout
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    • Profile picture of the author bluewatersailor
      Originally Posted by Joe Ditzel View Post

      Just a comment on your site setup: In my humble but correct opinion, too many photography websites lead with a single slide show. Yes, that is the product. Yes, her photos are great. But that is not all the customer is buying.

      All the copy that provides context is buried in bios, about us pages and such. If it's possible, I would match each image with more copy. Explain when it was shot, where, how, more info about the subject, etc. Romance the photos with great copy as I'm looking at them.
      Um. Wow.

      I had the sense that something really important was missing from the front page, but couldn't figure out what it was... this clicks right into the slot. My first reaction was "but I can't put much more text over the images!", but then I realized I can either a) link to more text from each image's headline, or b) change the slide layout so that each photo had a sidebar. This will most likely require changing themes... just as I was starting to think I've got the site structure well organized. Thanks a lot.

      (No, seriously: thank you. This dovetails well into the idea that the purpose of your first sentence is to get them to read the second one, etc. - and that's what was missing, I now fully realize, since the photos are my "first sentence". Terrific analysis, this.)


      Similarly, for your site, I recommend matching the great photos with much more background. Since I am a dumb American, I had to look up where Kamchatka is. Put all that information upfront. So when somebody lands on the site they can quickly find out what it is and where they are. You have all this info but it is buried.
      Now to figure out how to get all that above the fold, and still have room for the actual photos!

      For example, under "the Artist" you say "Kamchatka's winters often border on the brutal, freezing the land rock-solid until the sun of spring again warms the land. As if to make up for this, the summers are times of sudden abundance: berries and mushrooms sprout in profusion unimaginable in milder climates, the streams teem with huge, summer-fat salmon and trout, the woods are packed with wild game, and the lakes are black with ducks and geese."

      Wow, get that stuff out in the open where it can breathe.
      ...right. Didn't see that before. Now that you point it out, it really doesn't belong there; I'm mixing messages, artist and environment and stories of photos.

      Notice how Saddleback Leather tells you their story right on the front page:
      Saddleback Leather Co.
      You can buy leather products anywhere. But they have built a brand on the story.
      Gorgeous site. When I grow up... oh, right. Never mind.

      Notice how J Peterman sells socks.
      English Socks > Accessories et al. | The J. Peterman Company
      You would have bought these at Piccadilly Circus to watch Don Budge win Wimbledon. These socks have been handmade in England by Scott-Nichol for over a hundred years.

      Sure, they are great socks, but they are still friggin' socks. But they give you a story.
      That's the kind of copy I want to write. I realize it's going to take a long time... but whatever part of that is skill rather than just talent, that's what I want.

      Think of it this way. Let's say you are the artist and you have a shop called the Art of Kamchatka in Manhattan. Some upscale people walk in. What would you say about the photography for sale to kindle their desire?

      You might say, "Hi folks. Welcome to the Art of Kamchatka. Have you been here before?

      Oh! It's a good thing you came in today because I just got these pieces back. I LOVE this shot. Look at these two locking horns. I took this shot from a Chinook helicopter on the last day of winter. These two are fighting over a girl. Can you believe it?...

      Let me give you some background. Kamchatka is the northern part of Russia, kind of like Alaska. The wild beauty is stunning. I grew up there and started taking pictures of wildlife when I was in high school. My dad was a bounty hunter. He says Dog the Bounty Hunter is a pussy! While he was capturing outlaws, I would shoot pictures of snow eagles...Look at this other shot here, another amazing picture. Do you folks buy a lot of artwork? Really, this would be great in an office or den....."

      Tell me a story.
      Joe, thank you SO much for taking the time to do this. I'm going to be digesting all this for a bit, but the action part is coming - once I figure out how I can best apply what I know within my current limits. Superb work, sir, and I hope your clients appreciate your abilities $$$appropriately.$$$
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  • Profile picture of the author bluewatersailor
    Originally Posted by jacksarloks View Post

    The site's does not tell me what it's all about... it could be anything really then there's business articles too. What you want to do when building sites is build them for a particular visitor not for everyone.
    I agree: the site is not, and should not be, for everyone. In fact, your response seems like a perfect illustration: if someone gets there, and

    1) Sees the heading that says "The Art of Kamchatka";
    2) Looks at the full-screen image of two reindeer battling;
    3) Reads the caption that says "The Struggle for Dominance/Two of the larger bulls stamp and blow threateningly as they maneuver for advantage",

    and still doesn't have any idea of what it could be about - that's not someone for whom the site is intended. So far, you and I seem to be in complete agreement.

    Now, Joe Ditzel's comment about telling stories, rather than just having small captions, is brilliant; I'm consumed with envy at being able to dissect the problem down to its core like that, and I'll be restructuring the front page so I can tell more of the stories behind the images. My friend has a certain untutored freshness to the way that she relates those stories, and it'll take everything I've got to translate them into English without spoiling or losing that effect. But someone who doesn't get the message at all? "Thank you for visiting; hope your day becomes more pleasant and less confusing!" I.e., not my target market.

    The hompeage should answer: What is this website about?
    Two pictures of two animals don't answer that.
    As the Japanese say, "the reverse side also has a reverse side." Imagine a page that explains everything you want, in great, precise detail.

    ...and then, the immediate reaction of anyone whose inclination is artistic (rather than intellectual) will be to instantly bounce away from that page, because they - i.e., my target market - are looking for art. Not verbose explanations of what the site is about. The words come later - AFTER the art has had its impact. Perhaps as a dessert to be savored after the tasty meal, but not the meal itself.

    If you're suggesting that buying art is primarily an intellectual pursuit, you may want to reconsider that point of view.

    No matter how much time I spend surfing site I'll probably never understand what's it all about. Confusing in other words.

    If it's about Photography (I know because you said it in thread here) then tell it, create some headline of some sort so photography enthusiasts will know it's for them!
    Perhaps the title - you know, "The Art" part, as well as - ah - the full-screen photos?...

    What is the goal of your website? Is it to showcase his photos? If it is then I'd suggest on homepage make a list of thumbnails a lot of them small ... and feature one or two big at the top... Give users ability to see a lot.
    It may be that, in order to critique effectively, understanding the basic intent of what the OP is trying to do is a requirement. I don't know this for sure, but most of the advice I've received in this thread has ranged from useful and supportive to incisive and stellar - and no one, until now, has missed the intent of the site. But I sincerely do appreciate your time and effort in trying; if only the best cooks brought food, it wouldn't be much of a potluck.
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