How Come Copy Writers Don't Go For JV's Instead?

The copy is just one piece of the puzzle.

I've written copy that has sold well and I've written copy that WOULD have sold well if the right traffic had actually been sent to it.

This probably won't apply to you, but as a product owner you've got to make sure that the traffic you're getting is targeted, that way the letter will actually convert well for you.

If you're not targeting buyers, most marketing you do won't matter.

As for JV's, lots of copywriters do them. I do, just not on a first project with a client. I want to build the trust between us before we ever make a long-term deal like that.

Copywriters go for JVs all the time the problem is that most
business owners don't favor them. They want to have their
cakes and eat it too.

On the higher end of copywriting it is considered standard that
the copywriter gets a percentage of the sale. You'll seldom find
the typical online marketer going for these deals because they
want a high converting sales letter but want to also keep all
the profits after that so the copywriter must get his fee upfront
instead of on the back end.

The real business owner who understands copywriting don't
hesitate to pay those fees because they know it is an
investment--and you sometimes lose--that's part of doing
business.

You find offline businesses will pay your fees without a hiccup
because they understand that you have to spend money to
make money. And they are also accustomed to paying for
advertising that don't work so they are excited when you
can turn things around for them.

-Ray Edwards

That is usually the ticket. Many copywriters HAVE done JVs on their first project with a new client, only to get the short end of the stick on the deal.

And of course, if it is a new client, you don't know how their marketing works, and - unfortunately - how reputable they are.

Many copywriters will do profit sharing on a first deal with a new client IF it includes their normal, or slightly discounted rates (although this is rare.) In fact, many copywriters do ONLY project fee + profit sharing arrangements, like royalties for the online biz marketplace.

As a business owner, you have to understand the copywriter's perspective a bit on this one. Unfortunately, we've gotten very jaded. Newbie marketers, and even some not-so-newbie marketers see profit sharing as a way to get kick-butt sales copy without having to pay up front for it.

As a result, most copywriters get at least 3-4 offers per month, some 3-4 per week or even daily for profit sharing "opportunities" with people. Those that email us with these propositions usually follow with the other typical promises... "More work will follow!" and "It shouldn't be too difficult..." and "I'll tell all of my guru friends about you!"

In many cases, these turn out to be only half-truths. But people use them as their way of getting the price down, or even getting an inexperienced copywriter to work on a profit sharing basis.

Then when the profits come in, the bills are due, so they just pay the copywriter "later". And that more work they promised? Well they've moved on to something else, because the new infoproduct they read didn't say anything about needing good sales copy. Their guru friends turn out to be random people from a seminar, or people on a forum, or even the gurus that run the lists they subscribe to.

Really, if you're interested in a deal like that, you will have to pay something on your first deal if you want a copywriter who as actually written for clients before. It might not be their whole fee, but it will be something. Once you have established a working relationship, and the copywriter can see that your traffic driving techniques work, that may change.

And of course, as Ray mentioned, higher end clients and offline businesses have no issue with investing money in something they know they can get a return on. And they see profit sharing arrangements how copywriters see them - pay for performance, above the usual fee. I.E. More incentive to do well! Not more incentive to lower prices, do it faster, or give the copy away for free.

Hope that helps!

- Cherilyn

Because copywriters, 99% of the time, aren't just writers. In fact, if a freelance copywriter saw a company in that situation, it is likely that they would offer to do a marketing audit on the company to pin point those issues as well. Rewrite the call scripts, change the marketing materials the sales people use, suggest retraining, etc.

Real copywriters see the whole picture, and they are often times more of a "marketing consultant" than a "writer".

- Cherilyn

These are great thoughts and its for sure helping me understand the process from the copywriter's stand point.

But still there is one thought that comes to me when reading all this.

If a copywriter is good (and I believe the responders to this thread are) then I assume you would have been able to sort through the clients who were real and the clients who were fake.

Thus under the right scenario you would cease to offer your services as a freelancer and you would focus on JV's with existing "real" clients.

But then what Raydal said might come into play where product owners want their profit cakes and eat them too.

That is assuming that copywriters are excellent judges of character via email, and that things are black and white... There are no "good clients" and "bad clients" for JVs - none of them are good OR bad. They're all different in their own way, and that is hard to gage from email alone, or even over the phone. Or even in person, for that matter.

Really, what you're saying is "all copywriters should either DO profit sharing or NOT DO profit sharing", and then refusing to see why many copywriters are tentative in this approach. This is not a black and white issue - there might even be some purple problems in there

- Cherilyn

Maybe this will make it clearer:

I personally don't work on spec because unless the individual I'm partnering with has a proven track record for DRIVING TARGETED TRAFFIC to the offer, I have no idea that people looking for the product or service will ever see the copy.

There are three essential skills in this business. One is writing, which boils down to product creation and writing excellent sales copy.

The second is driving lots of targeted traffic to the offer.

And the distant third is Web design.

Of the three skills, I believe that driving traffic is the most essential. I'd gladly partner up with someone who has a proven track record for getting droves of visitors to an offer, but those people are few and far between.

As Ray pointed out, at the higher level it IS normal for the copywriter to receive a percentage.

This however means dealing with large companies with procedures in place, accountants, liason officers who's job it is to make sure you're getting paid etc.

Once you go beyond a certain point it is like being employed. Part of the attraction of being a freelance copywriter is that you're NOT at the beck and call of someone else, or wondering if others are letting you down, if there's a problem with the product etc.

You just specialise in what you do, give your client your best for a few weeks, get paid handsomely and go fishing. Rinse and repeat.





B.

First... A copywriter making $15K comes with some sort of proof that they're worth it. No one goes out and hires someone for that amount without knowing a bit about how his/her work has pulled in the past.

Second... of course there's a guarantee. Some guarantee they'll do a certain number of rewrites in the first 30 days... others, like me guarantee to give you 150% effort in making your letter the best it can be. Copywriters also have reputations to uphold.

If I charge you $13,000 for a sales letter and it turns out to not be worth it, I can only do that a couple times before word gets around that I'm not worth it. Then what happens to my business?

For that reason, more established copywriters often work hard to make your letter successful.

And a few, like me also include marketing consulting. Brainstorming with clients to make sure they haven't left any stone unturned for profit with this product. The right consulations can save a ton of money for the marketer... and even make a ton more.

In my case, I'm also a perfectionist... and very hard on myself. If I write crap, I don't sleep... I drive my wife nuts... My life becomes a living hell.

I "live" every letter I write.

Now...

Obviously you weren't talking about that kind of guarantee. You meant something more like "Hey... if you don't make 5 times my fee in the first 7 days, then the letter is free!" or something like that. Well... that offer would work great if I vetted the product to see if I felt confident that the gamble was worth it. And... if I controlled every aspect of your marketing.

What kind of reputation does the product/marketer have in the marketplace? Is it an exceptional one that instills confidence in buyers?

What kind of value comes with the offer?

How much is the marketer going to pay to get this to a wide audience?

How is the customer service history of the marketer?

What kind of work will the marketer do to build the brand?

And if all that (and a few other criteria) were put into my hands and I see a big benefit to, and a good gamble in guaranteeing results... I might. But at that point what the hell do I need you for? Why share profits with you if I'm going to do all the work? I could easily pay a grand to get some third world worker to write my new info-product on the same topic as yours... and keep all the money.

Some copywriters do JV as marketers, bringing the copy to the party in the deal. But again, look at that list above. You have to be very confident in who you're doing business with. Do I trust all the affiliates? Do I see a slam dunk? How do I even know when I finish this letter, Joe Marketer is even going to follow through and ever market the item?

In cases where the copywriter is confident in all those things, sure... some will JV... But usually with a reduced fee up front and a piece of profits on the back end.

You can't expect the copywriter to take the ultimate risk for the success of the whole product if he's only responsible for 1 part of it.

I don't want this to sound harsh but this topic is one that pops up ever couple months. It's usually from people who want a marketing business without the risk involved.

My suggestion to you is look for the best copywriter you can afford. Check his references... check his reputation... then trust him.

And while he's writing, bust your ass to make your product better and increase your marketing skills...

Because the right combination of copywriting, product, marketing plan and a tad bit of luck can change your life in ways you can't even imagine.

I've got some clients who literally were making $25K a year in their dayjobs and affiliate marketing part time at night... who did what I said above and now make $100,000... $200,000 and more with each product launch.

I have clients who make more than $1 million in 24 hours... and others who are happy making $30-50K per month every month. And I'm not the only variable they have in common. They're all smart... work hard... and care about their names as much as I care about mine.

And they got the same guarantee I give all my clients. "I will bust my ass to make you successful."

There are a few failures along the way, sure. Every copywriter at every level has them. But a higher price brings experience... And experience brings odds. Nobody should gamble without playing the odds.

Man, I came into this thread ready to give my 2 cents...

But I see it's all basically been said.

I think Bruce raised a good point though-

The guys that are in a position to offer
realistic JVs most often won't do it, because
it would work out way more expensive than
just paying the writer their standard fee.

It's like saying "how much do you want to pay
for this new car, $15,000 or $150,000?"

No one in their right mind chooses the more
expensive option without an extraordinary
reason to do so.

I think the bottom line is that most JV offers
for writers come from people who have no
way of hiring us otherwise. These are guys
with little marketing experience probably
trying to put out their first product...

But with no real idea how to market it or
drive traffic once they have the letter in
place.

And in their minds it seems like a perfect
deal, but that's because the copywriter is
the one taking all the risk.

-David Raybould

I wish I new all this before started developing my product. I am already in the process and paying professionals to do it but I don't have even near as much as mentioned in this forum for sales copy. I payed $200 for sales copy so I can imagine what will I get. However I will bookmark this post just in case I can ever afford any of you guys.