How to determine someone's copywriting skill?

by fsp
11 replies
Hi guys,

I have a few questions about sales pages.

How much would one expect to pay to get a great quality sales page written? How open are copywriters to the client's sensitive areas (like needing to not look spammy)? And how do you determine if writers can deliver like they say they can?

Also, is there any sort of arrangement where you can ask for performance pay rates? In other words, if a sales page writer claims they'll get conversions (assuming the product is quality), is it okay to ask them to make some kind of deal where they get a small fee upfront and then a larger bonus if the page makes sales?

I've never worked with another copywriter for my product before, and I need some help and advice. Thanks.
#copywriting #determine #skill
  • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
    A more experienced copywriter would delve into your business to see
    if you have things in place before he/she would commit to a performance arrangement.

    Each copywriter would have their own criteria as to what is required
    to make the campaign a high probability of success.

    It really is a case by case situation.

    Best,
    Ewen
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    • Profile picture of the author fsp
      So assuming I have everything in place (an $800 product with a 1% conversion rate, payment gateway, great testimonials, best-in-industry product), is it okay to contact copywriters with performance arrangement request? Or is that bad etiquette (will it piss off the quality people)?

      Also, still not clear on how to find them, how to make sure they can deliver on promises. Any advice is hugely appreciated.
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        Originally Posted by fsp View Post

        So assuming I have everything in place (an $800 product with a 1% conversion rate, payment gateway, great testimonials, best-in-industry product), is it okay to contact copywriters with performance arrangement request? Or is that bad etiquette (will it piss off the quality people)?

        Also, still not clear on how to find them, how to make sure they can deliver on promises. Any advice is hugely appreciated.
        The promise thing seems a sticking point with you.

        The more experienced copywriters won't throw out loose promises
        up front because they won't know what lies ahead.

        Another part of the equation is getting the right eyeballs to the offer.

        If you haven't had a solid track record in doing that,
        then this lowers the probability of success.

        Bringing up the topic of performance based fees up front may not be the best approach.

        Having the copywriter take a look at the overall project and giving you feedback
        on ways it can be improved first, would be a good first step.

        If the copywriter seems as though he/she wants to be invested in the
        project, then you can talk about a pay for performance incentive.

        Best,
        Ewen
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
          Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

          Another part of the equation is getting the right eyeballs to the offer.

          If you haven't had a solid track record in doing that,
          then this lowers the probability of success.
          Ewen beat me to it.

          But whenever someone approaches me with an incentive deal, my first question is:

          Who the hell are you?

          It takes balls to ask someone to drop whatever they're doing and spend their time to help you realize your vision - in the hopes you know what you're doing to drive the right kind of traffic - to a page that is perfectly designed for the markeplace/avatar.

          When someone is fixated on guaranteeing conversions, without just outright saying, "I'll pay you $5,000 upfront + 10% on the backend," my interest level is usually never peaked.

          There are behaviors indicative of people who are in scarcity mode...

          ...and obviously don't understand that ALL marketing is one big test.

          That being said...

          Of course a copywriter will take a percentage deal (with a solid upfront retainer) - IF it's obvious you know what the hell you're doing.

          Is your system in place?

          Do you have a direct response web/graphic designer already picked out?

          Is your traffic budget set aside?

          Do you already where you're spending that budget? If so, why did you choose those sources?

          Have you had successful campaigns in the past?

          Do you have other incentive deals that are still alive and well right now?

          It's fine to look out for your investment bucks.

          But make no mistake about it...

          There's a right AND very wrong way to set up ANY kind of copywriter/client deal - whether it's purely upfront... or incentive-based.

          And everything needs to be in-place for either to work... properly.

          Mark
          Signature

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          • Profile picture of the author fsp
            Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

            whenever someone approaches me with an incentive deal, my first question is:

            Who the hell are you?
            I appreciate the point behind this, but I think it's making a large presumption -- that someone approaching you with an incentive deal is implicitly unworthy of your time. Some people are simply not internet (or even offline) marketing experts, and simply need help. I'm an expert at what I do, for example, which is why I built the product I built. To also become an expert at copywriting and sales would be a distraction from my core business and skill set, and seems unnecessary when others (like you?) are already skilled at it and seemingly passionate about it. But as an outsider, I need to know how best to navigate your world.

            It takes balls to ask someone to drop whatever they're doing and spend their time to help you realize your vision - in the hopes you know what you're doing to drive the right kind of traffic - to a page that is perfectly designed for the markeplace/avatar.
            Is this the assumption? That because I'm interested in some sort of substantiation of a copywriter's ability to deliver the very thing they're being brought on to do, I'm someone asking them to drop what they're doing to realize my vision? Because I don't see it that way at all (there is, after all, the incentive of a lot of potential income being presented from my end). But if that's the immediate perception from the copywriting community, then it's important for me to know that in order to figure out how to deal with them so that I don't offend, but also don't get burned.

            When someone is fixated on guaranteeing conversions, without just outright saying, "I'll pay you $5,000 upfront + 10% on the backend," my interest level is usually never peaked.
            Is it unreasonable to ask for results? I mean no offense or disrespect; I'm asking a genuine question. Because if the very question causes immediate disinterest, then my own immediate reaction would be that such a copywriter is only interested in getting a paycheck without any responsibility to the delivery of a quality result. But if it's a general industry mindset, then I think it makes navigating copywriters an even more difficult prospect.

            Of course a copywriter will take a percentage deal (with a solid upfront retainer) - IF it's obvious you know what the hell you're doing.
            I don't understand this one. If I knew what the hell I was doing, why would I need to hire a copywriter to do it? If you mean to say that I know what I'm doing with my product, then yes, I understand that. But the whole point of hiring a copywriter is because the client is NOT an expert in the very things you're pointing out.

            - Is your system in place?
            Yes

            - Do you have a direct response web/graphic designer already picked out?
            Assumed they would go hand in hand

            - Is your traffic budget set aside?
            Not an expert, so have no way of knowing.

            - Do you already where you're spending that budget? If so, why did you choose those sources?
            Again, not an expert, so have no way of knowing.

            - Have you had successful campaigns in the past?
            Yes

            - Do you have other incentive deals that are still alive and well right now?
            Not familiar with this jargon.


            There's a right AND very wrong way to set up ANY kind of copywriter/client deal - whether it's purely upfront... or incentive-based.

            And everything needs to be in-place for either to work... properly.
            And these, I suppose, are the questions I'm asking about.

            Thanks for your reply. I have a feeling your opinions and reactions will be the norm, which makes it very daunting for someone who's not a part of this world to find and select the right people to work with. It seems almost like becoming an expert is a prerequisite to even using a copywriter. I'll keep trying to figure it out...
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            • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
              Originally Posted by fsp View Post

              I appreciate the point behind this, but I think it's making a large presumption -- that someone approaching you with an incentive deal is implicitly unworthy of your time.
              It's not an assumption.

              I get approached, almost on a daily basis, by people who want a JV... or try to convince me to take on a project for less upfront - with the promise of a big backend.

              The reality is...

              There aren't very many people who bring enough to the table - even if their product is totally kick-ass.

              If the business owner doesn't have the budget set aside for web design and traffic, the best copy in the world (for that product) won't make a dime.

              Originally Posted by fsp View Post

              Is this the assumption? That because I'm interested in some sort of substantiation of a copywriter's ability to deliver the very thing they're being brought on to do, I'm someone asking them to drop what they're doing to realize my vision? Because I don't see it that way at all (there is, after all, the incentive of a lot of potential income being presented from my end). But if that's the immediate perception from the copywriting community, then it's important for me to know that in order to figure out how to deal with them so that I don't offend, but also don't get burned.
              First of all...

              Savvy marketers know that EVERYTHING is a test.

              So when you pay a copywriter their upfront fee, you're investing in their expertise to get it right (or pretty damn close) to creating the control.

              If there's a backend deal negotiated - IF the copy doesn't convert (at say 1.5%) against traffic sources that are transparently communicated beforehand, great.

              BOTH of you have an incentive to tweak the copy - until it converts.

              Which of course also means...

              You're going to continue investing your budget towards new web design, graphic work, video production... or whatever else is needed to fulfill your end of the bargain. (And that doesn't mean paying a web designer or video guy who doesn't get direct response.)

              Originally Posted by fsp View Post

              Is it unreasonable to ask for results? I mean no offense or disrespect; I'm asking a genuine question. Because if the very question causes immediate disinterest, then my own immediate reaction would be that such a copywriter is only interested in getting a paycheck without any responsibility to the delivery of a quality result. But if it's a general industry mindset, then I think it makes navigating copywriters an even more difficult prospect.
              Now THAT is an assumption. You asked a fairly general question. You got an answer - without knowing your background or particular circumstances.

              When you hire a copywriter, you're paying for their expertise.

              NO, NO, NO copywriter can guarantee conversions - even if there's a backend deal. Anybody who says different is selling something;-)

              You have to keep in mind...

              When a copywriter gets approached about incentive-based deals by lots of entrepreneurs (while business owners seemingly try to skimp on the front end fee,) it's easy to be skeptical. (Just like you're skeptical about copywriters taking your money and not caring about your results.)

              Personally speaking...

              I'm never just interested in the front end fee. It matters that the copy I write is effective. But it's up to you to implement it, right. So I do often keep tabs on people, who I have absolutely NO back end with - to make sure the implementation process is going smooth.

              Originally Posted by fsp View Post


              - Do you have a direct response web/graphic designer already picked out?
              Assumed they would go hand in hand
              Nope. Some writers also do the graphic/web design and video production, like Brian McLeod, but 99% DON'T.

              Originally Posted by fsp View Post

              - Is your traffic budget set aside?
              Not an expert, so have no way of knowing.
              Major red flag. Look next...

              Originally Posted by fsp View Post

              - Do you already where you're spending that budget? If so, why did you choose those sources?
              Again, not an expert, so have no way of knowing.
              Why would I tweak your copy - IF you have no idea how to put the right eyes on it? Just the fact alone that you can't answer this question wouldn't make this ideal for ANY copywriter to take on - unless A) You hired a proven marketer or B) I assumed the role of Project Manager - on top of writing the copy.

              Originally Posted by fsp View Post

              - Have you had successful campaigns in the past?
              Yes
              Fantastic. That makes a difference. Because if I can see how you've already been successful, I'd know how to work with you - in the long term.

              Originally Posted by fsp View Post

              - Do you have other incentive deals that are still alive and well right now?
              Not familiar with this jargon.
              In other words, have you parterned with someone before to sell your products - in some way, shape or form?

              Originally Posted by fsp View Post

              Thanks for your reply. I have a feeling your opinions and reactions will be the norm, which makes it very daunting for someone who's not a part of this world to find and select the right people to work with. It seems almost like becoming an expert is a prerequisite to even using a copywriter. I'll keep trying to figure it out...
              You're doing your due diligence.

              I don't know you. And you don't know me.

              This is just a conversation. And other people will benefit from reading this stuff.

              Because LOTS of people have your same concerns.

              Here's some advice:

              If you're going to approach someone, who's proven, with an incentive deal...

              Be TRANSPARENT!

              Come to them with an upfront retainer and backend 5%. You are the one making the offer. You're a big boy. You can negotiate.

              Just FYI...

              If you're wondering what a good upfront fee is, be aware that most copywriters who have converted in the high millions will ask for a minimum of $5,000 retainer. Most will probably be $10,000, $15,000... or more.

              Your backend % deal is largely based on your profit margin. How much money do you make per sale? Do you have partners? Copywriters will want at least 5%. Most will aim for 10%.

              There's so much more to talk about here.

              But I'm done for now.

              Thanks for your candid replies.

              Mark
              Signature

              Do you want a 9 figure copywriter and biz owner to Write With You? I'll work with you, on zoom, to help write your copy or client copy... while you learn from one of the few copywriters to legit hit 9 figures in gross sales! Discover More

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        • Profile picture of the author fsp
          Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

          Another part of the equation is getting the right eyeballs to the offer.
          This is a great point, and I guess leads to a secondary question:
          Is there a job or a type of business that does both of these things
          (copywriting the sales pages or marketing material AND determines
          how to draw the user in)?

          Having the copywriter take a look at the overall project and giving you feedback
          on ways it can be improved first, would be a good first step.
          Thanks. I think this is good advice.
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  • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
    For me personally, I get asked all the time for pay-for-performance deals.

    You certainly won't piss off any pro copywriter who has been doing this for a while.

    But like Ewen said, any good copywriter will want to look at what you're selling to ensure that there's a likelihood of it producing any kind of long-term sales.

    For me, in most cases I'll do a "first date" with a client and do one project with them, first, before doing any kind of long term arrangement.

    I've been doing this for 13 years and the first year or so, it would blow a lot of people away the so-called "top internet marketers" who failed to live up to their end of the agreement or even deliver the entire fee they owed.

    so, for me, all clients have to have some skin in the game, and then I'll make it a case-by-case basis as far as what kind of arrangement.

    Almost all of my long term clients are now set up as % of sales arrangements, because it's just more lucrative that way for both. I keep going back to the copy, trying to make it better, and they keep paying me.

    But again, all had to put some skin in the game, and then from there a % deal can be made.

    You won't piss off any top writers, because they're ALL familiar with it. It potentially COULD lead to much bigger fees than just a flat fee up front.
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    • Profile picture of the author fsp
      Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

      like Ewen said, any good copywriter will want to look at what you're selling to ensure that there's a likelihood of it producing any kind of long-term sales.
      I would expect no less.

      all clients have to have some skin in the game
      I certainly understand that. But wouldn't the client's product be the skin in the game? (We're assuming that you like and agree that the product is quality and is marketable.) As an example, I've spent about four years and nearly $300k building my product. That's a lot of skin in the game, and we're not talking about some Word document somebody slaps together and makes a PDF out of. My point is, in theory, the copywriter is claiming their work will bring in sales; I'm just wondering how to keep a copywriter accountable and how to assess their results (or if it must simply be a gamble each time).

      Almost all of my long term clients are now set up as % of sales arrangements, because it's just more lucrative that way for both. I keep going back to the copy, trying to make it better, and they keep paying me. . . . It potentially COULD lead to much bigger fees than just a flat fee up front.
      This is what I would think a great copywriter would be most interested, as it theoretically creates an ongoing source of revenue for them. As the client, I wouldn't care because the sales are self-generated, so it's money I wouldn't have had without the writer.

      Thanks for your insights, Shawn.
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  • Profile picture of the author Enfusia
    Originally Posted by fsp View Post

    Hi guys,

    I have a few questions about sales pages.

    How much would one expect to pay to get a great quality sales page written? How open are copywriters to the client's sensitive areas (like needing to not look spammy)? And how do you determine if writers can deliver like they say they can?

    Also, is there any sort of arrangement where you can ask for performance pay rates? In other words, if a sales page writer claims they'll get conversions (assuming the product is quality), is it okay to ask them to make some kind of deal where they get a small fee upfront and then a larger bonus if the page makes sales?

    I've never worked with another copywriter for my product before, and I need some help and advice. Thanks.
    1. You can pay anywhere from $2,000 to $4,000 for a longer form opt in page like the ones you see over at Market Health where they give away a free bottle of a supplement. I've done many of them and that's pretty typical.

    You can pay $5,000 and up for a good sales letter. One arrangement (I won't mention names, cough, cough mass control cough, cough) was reportedly for $50,000 and a piece of the sales pie. So, it depends on many factors.

    2. Look at their samples, look at their own sales page selling their services if it stinks then why would you believe they can write copy for you?

    They will have testimonials. If their clients only say stuff like "yeah, it was done on time thanks" then you may have a dud writer. But if you have testimonials where they say "he's the best, he rocks, just throw money at him and make sick ROI's" then you may have a stud.

    3. Most all great writers will take a % of sales as just standard practice. Maybe the most famous for it is Makepeace.

    You won't be getting some bargain fee up front if the writers any good. You'll still pay full boat but for great writers expect to pay a % on the back end as well.

    Patrick
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  • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
    Originally Posted by fsp View Post

    But wouldn't the client's product be the skin in the game?
    Nope, not at all. Because if it's a shitty product that the market doesn't want... that doesn't help the copywriter at all.

    Any pro copywriter deserves to be paid, up front, for his/her time. THAT is the skin in the game. From there, in order to keep using the copy... THAT is where the % of sales comes in. That way, the writer keeps going back to test/tweak and make it better.



    Originally Posted by fsp View Post

    I would expect no less.
    As an example, I've spent about four years and nearly $300k building my product. That's a lot of skin in the game, and we're not talking about some Word document somebody slaps together and makes a PDF out of.
    If you've ever seen Shark Tank, you'd be amazed at the number of business owners that go into the tank, having spent their life savings on a product or business idea... and yet they get laughed out of the room by the sharks because either the product sucks or the market didn't want it.

    The amount you spend on your product, well, that truly means nothing.

    You can spend a million bucks on a product... but if the market doesn't want it, you wasted money.

    Hell, I bootstrapped a million dollar business with a PDF that the market wanted. Total cost to make was $20... and that one ebook sold over $2 million bucks for me.

    And yet, I've talked to hundreds of clients who spent six figures on their products... only to find out the market didn't want it... so it was money wasted.

    What you spent to make your product means nothing... what matters is whether the market wants it.

    Now, not knowing you or your product, I couldn't say if that's the case.

    But far too many marketers put their entire focus/effort/money into the product... and then when it comes time for the copy... look for every shortcut they can find.

    Again, not saying that's the case here... but it happens. that's like tripping over dollars to pick up pennies.

    The product DOES matter, a lot. But so does the list/traffic and the copy.

    They all have to work, together, for it to be successful. that's another reason why copywriters will want something up front, for their time.

    I've written sales letters in a particular niche... that the client then sent the worst traffic possible to it. I kid you not, I once wrote a make money online letter and the client used TrafficJunky traffic, which I think is porn related.

    So, there's a lot of different variables and not just the copy OR the product. But any pro writer will command to be paid for their time, and then from there... an arrangement can always be made for continuing work.

    Bottom line, why not just reach out to a few writers you find here, or on google, read their stuff, find RESULTS, and reach out to a few you seem to mesh well with.

    This business is so "fluid"... meaning all clients have different needs... so no copywriter will have a "set in stone" way of pricing or doing things. Just ask a few for their thoughts and ideas, and try to create relationships.

    If you're going to have any long term success online... it won't be a one-shot deal. Building relationships with top people in all the important areas is a really good thing to do.
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