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My Thoughts On Copywriting After 11 Years

by Steven Wagenheim
65 replies
It's been 11 and a half years (yesterday) since I started my online business. From day one, I have always written my own sales letters along with all my other content which included articles, autoresponder series and whole ebooks.

Of all these things, copywriting has been the one thing I feel is more talent driven than anything else and the hardest to master. And here's why.

You can learn everything you want about headlines and sub heads and bullet points and constructing your "story" and AIDA and blah, blah, blah.

But nobody can turn you into a gifted writer.

Read the best sales letters through the ages. It's not the formula of the sales letter that made it great because any monkey can follow a list of instructions on how to technically construct a sales letter. I should know. I've been doing it by the "numbers" for 11 years. No, the great sales letters are great because they're written by great writers, people with real talent, something I have finally come to realize I am sorely lacking.

Sure, my sales letters over the years converted okay. But I never had a knock 'em out of the park hit. Why? Because I'm an average writer at best. I don't have that spit and polish that the great ones have. And I certainly don't have their flare for painting pictures with their words.

This is caused me to sit down and ask myself why. Is it because I don't have the innate talent to write that well or is it simply that I've been writing about something I have very little real passion for?

Well, I immediately rejected the latter for this simple reason. The great copywriters can write for just about any niche. They certainly can't be passionate about all of them. So that can't be it.

So it has to be talent, plain and simple.

The question is, can talent be learned?

No, I'm not gonna get into that because I just wrote an article on the subject as it applies to music. I'll just say that I don't think it can be. I think it can be developed to some degree but I truly believe that the ability to write like some of these people write is something you're born with. I have no scientific evidence to back that up. It's just what I believe.

Why am I even going on about all this? Well, there is a reason.

My old business in the MMO niche crashed and burned because of my traffic drying up after the Google slap on article directories. In short, my business model was flawed as far as traffic generation went and I paid the price.

I am now starting over from scratch. I have several musical projects in the work. One of them I am 99% sure will be a big success as it has to do with the diet and exercise niche and targeting a segment with a product that has very little competition.

Here is my problem.

I need a solid sale letter so that I can attract affiliates. I do not trust my own skills to write it but I cannot afford any of you guys as I am broke. The money just isn't there. So I'm kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everything else is solid. The product WILL sell. There is no question about that. After I approach all the top diet and exercise sites and get enough affiliates, the sales will come pouring in, provided the sales letter does its job.

Is it possible that I can write a decent sales letter so that, while conversions may not be maximized, I can still do "okay"? Yeah, it's possible. But I can't chance it. I'm pretty much treading water right now and need this to be a success. Now when I say success I'm not talking about it generating a six figure income for me. If I make 1 to 2 grand a month that's all I need to get me over the hump with my wife's income.

No, I didn't come here looking for any handouts or favors. I know how long it takes to write a sales letter and your time is valuable. I guess what I'm looking for is some advice.

Oddly, I'm more concerned with how the sales letter looks than how it reads as I am a terrible site designer. That's going to kill my letter before people even read it. As for the words, I think I'm good enough to convert at a measly half a percent. But will I be able to get affiliates with that low a conversion rate? If not, then I'm relying on my own traffic gen methods to make sales and that's the area I am weakest in.

Anyway, that's about it. I really admire you guys that can write the way you do. I wish I had your talent. But I've never had more than an 8th grade vocabulary (most likely because I never liked to read) and I'm kind of paying the price today.

Feeback of any kind is welcome.
#copywriting #thoughts #years
  • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    It's been 11 and a half years (yesterday) since I started my online business. From day one, I have always written my own sales letters along with all my other content which included articles, autoresponder series and whole ebooks.

    Of all these things, copywriting has been the one thing I feel is more talent driven than anything else and the hardest to master. And here's why.

    You can learn everything you want about headlines and sub heads and bullet points and constructing your "story" and AIDA and blah, blah, blah.

    But nobody can turn you into a gifted writer.

    Read the best sales letters through the ages. It's not the formula of the sales letter that made it great because any monkey can follow a list of instructions on how to technically construct a sales letter. I should know. I've been doing it by the "numbers" for 11 years. No, the great sales letters are great because they're written by great writers, people with real talent, something I have finally come to realize I am sorely lacking.

    Sure, my sales letters over the years converted okay. But I never had a knock 'em out of the park hit. Why? Because I'm an average writer at best. I don't have that spit and polish that the great ones have. And I certainly don't have their flare for painting pictures with their words.

    This is caused me to sit down and ask myself why. Is it because I don't have the innate talent to write that well or is it simply that I've been writing about something I have very little real passion for?

    Well, I immediately rejected the latter for this simple reason. The great copywriters can write for just about any niche. They certainly can't be passionate about all of them. So that can't be it.

    So it has to be talent, plain and simple.

    The question is, can talent be learned?

    No, I'm not gonna get into that because I just wrote an article on the subject as it applies to music. I'll just say that I don't think it can be. I think it can be developed to some degree but I truly believe that the ability to write like some of these people write is something you're born with. I have no scientific evidence to back that up. It's just what I believe.

    Why am I even going on about all this? Well, there is a reason.

    My old business in the MMO niche crashed and burned because of my traffic drying up after the Google slap on article directories. In short, my business model was flawed as far as traffic generation went and I paid the price.

    I am now starting over from scratch. I have several musical projects in the work. One of them I am 99% sure will be a big success as it has to do with the diet and exercise niche and targeting a segment with a product that has very little competition.

    Here is my problem.

    I need a solid sale letter so that I can attract affiliates. I do not trust my own skills to write it but I cannot afford any of you guys as I am broke. The money just isn't there. So I'm kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everything else is solid. The product WILL sell. There is no question about that. After I approach all the top diet and exercise sites and get enough affiliates, the sales will come pouring in, provided the sales letter does its job.

    Is it possible that I can write a decent sales letter so that, while conversions may not be maximized, I can still do "okay"? Yeah, it's possible. But I can't chance it. I'm pretty much treading water right now and need this to be a success. Now when I say success I'm not talking about it generating a six figure income for me. If I make 1 to 2 grand a month that's all I need to get me over the hump with my wife's income.

    No, I didn't come here looking for any handouts or favors. I know how long it takes to write a sales letter and your time is valuable. I guess what I'm looking for is some advice.

    Oddly, I'm more concerned with how the sales letter looks than how it reads as I am a terrible site designer. That's going to kill my letter before people even read it. As for the words, I think I'm good enough to convert at a measly half a percent. But will I be able to get affiliates with that low a conversion rate? If not, then I'm relying on my own traffic gen methods to make sales and that's the area I am weakest in.

    Anyway, that's about it. I really admire you guys that can write the way you do. I wish I had your talent. But I've never had more than an 8th grade vocabulary (most likely because I never liked to read) and I'm kind of paying the price today.

    Feeback of any kind is welcome.
    Steve,

    You have repeatedly demonstrated your stubbornness over the years, wanting to do things your way (the hardheaded way).

    From what I've seen over the last 11 years, you would, in my opinion make a horrible client, no matter what the agreement.

    You may find some good noobs to help you or a young person looking for some cred, but, any experienced copywriter would have to ask you to stay out of it and test the copy he/she writes.

    I don't think you are capable of doing that, are you?

    gjabiz
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by gjabiz View Post

      Steve,

      You have repeatedly demonstrated your stubbornness over the years, wanting to do things your way (the hardheaded way).

      From what I've seen over the last 11 years, you would, in my opinion make a horrible client, no matter what the agreement.

      You may find some good noobs to help you or a young person looking for some cred, but, any experienced copywriter would have to ask you to stay out of it and test the copy he/she writes.

      I don't think you are capable of doing that, are you?

      gjabiz
      Odd question. But okay. Here's my honest answer. Of course I would stay out of it. If I didn't want to stay out of it I'd write the damn sales letter myself. Willing to test it? Of course. How stupid do I look?

      Now, able to test it properly, as in setting up a PPC campaign and driving tons of traffic to it? Not even a remote possibility as, again, I am broke. This is yet another stumbling block. Even if I had a personal friend who was the best copywriter in the industry, someone who I pulled out of a raging river and he owed me his life and offered to do the sales letter for nothing, I still don't have the funds to test it quickly. I would have to rely on slow traffic gen methods to build up enough impressions to determine if the sales letter was "good enough." I simply don't have that kind of time.

      Again, I am stuck between a rock and a hard place because of my financial situation.

      Also, again, I did not come here asking for favors or handouts. Just advice. So given your response, what is your "advice?" Give up? Pack it in? What? I can't do what I can't do. You can't get blood out of a stone. I have no money for a copywriter, at least not a good one, and no money to throw into PPC, an area I also know nothing about as I haven't used it since the days when you could send traffic to a crappy landing page. Those days are dead and gone.

      So again, what is your advice?
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      • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Odd question. But okay. Here's my honest answer. Of course I would stay out of it. If I didn't want to stay out of it I'd write the damn sales letter myself. Willing to test it? Of course. How stupid do I look?

        Now, able to test it properly, as in setting up a PPC campaign and driving tons of traffic to it? Not even a remote possibility as, again, I am broke. This is yet another stumbling block. Even if I had a personal friend who was the best copywriter in the industry, someone who I pulled out of a raging river and he owed me his life and offered to do the sales letter for nothing, I still don't have the funds to test it quickly. I would have to rely on slow traffic gen methods to build up enough impressions to determine if the sales letter was "good enough." I simply don't have that kind of time.

        Again, I am stuck between a rock and a hard place because of my financial situation.

        Also, again, I did not come here asking for favors or handouts. Just advice. So given your response, what is your "advice?" Give up? Pack it in? What? I can't do what I can't do. You can't get blood out of a stone. I have no money for a copywriter, at least not a good one, and no money to throw into PPC, an area I also know nothing about as I haven't used it since the days when you could send traffic to a crappy landing page. Those days are dead and gone.

        So again, what is your advice?
        ...GET a JOB.

        Perhaps selling musical instruments or something, but, if you are as desperate as you say, consider IM as an AFTER WORK hobby.

        gjabiz
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by gjabiz View Post

          ...GET a JOB.

          Perhaps selling musical instruments or something, but, if you are as desperate as you say, consider IM as an AFTER WORK hobby.

          gjabiz
          Because of health issues, I can't get a job. I haven't had one since 2000 when I lost my last one. That's the reason I had to turn to IM in the first place. So getting a job is not an option. If it were, I wouldn't be here. IM can't be my after work hobby. It has to be my income. And for 8 years, it was.

          But thank you for your "advice."
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          • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            Because of health issues, I can't get a job. I haven't had one since 2000 when I lost my last one. That's the reason I had to turn to IM in the first place. So getting a job is not an option. If it were, I wouldn't be here. IM can't be my after work hobby. It has to be my income. And for 8 years, it was.

            But thank you for your "advice."
            As a former county job devloper specializing in disabled persons with a broad spectrum of disabilities... including two in wheelchairs...

            The first one a lady who ran a red light and was broadsided She accepts responsibility...and is a star at her telemarketing job. which she does from home. She wishes she could work more, but her part-time income is at maximum level before it impacts her disability...speaking of

            A person who hasn't had a job for that long, surely has filed for disability and is receiving it or has been denied time and time again.

            Many Warriors have health problems, some worked up til they day they died.

            The guy in a motorcycle accident, at 20mph, suffered severe brain trauma, has no short term memory, yet, he was able to find work.

            The former Ohio State track star had his mental illness come on while in college, then coupled with a severe depression, his parents begging for help...was able to find a job he actually liked doing.

            Clients included not only telemarketers, even had a MUSICIAN, who couldn't walk and had some loss of his hands...but was able to TEACH music, his ears still worked just fine.

            NONE of these disabled people made excuses, the ones that had self created their circumstances, accepted responsibility.

            The copywriting forum has many NON English writers, who may have to pay a copy editor, or a proof reader.

            Many Warriors need an English speaking voice for their VSL and a Native tongue for their products and promotions, we see several Warriors WORKING their way to the big homerun.

            And about Great Ideas, it was my job to analyze ideas and submissions when I worked at SCI, and a man named Burton Morgan, who ran a funding firm called Concept Development told me the same thing Ben Suarez did...

            Great Ideas are a dime a dozen.

            I communicated with almost 500 Inventors/Product developers who thought THE MARKET wants this...and no, they don't.

            Mr. Morgan never invested in an idea, only the person behind it, the guy who would do anything to make it happen, the guy who would crawl through glass for it...the guy who would find a way to work, to get a job if he needed one...

            the guy with the fire in the gut, who would not let lack of money slow him down...

            those are the kind of people investors look for. Whether the investor is putting in money, talent or time, it is the person, NOT the great idea someone thinks is going to be a wanted product, although it is, unproven, untested product.

            People from all over the world come here to the WF, many buy editing, proofreading, voices in English, and they have other Warriors in the for hire section offering to do these things for pennies...

            in order to save up enough to invest in their ideas, they WORK like madmen to make a buck...and some of them have "health" problems too.

            gjabiz

            PS. blah, blah, blah, Google's fault, blah blah blah, no money, blah blah blah desperate, flat broke, health problems... You need to volunteer at the local sheltered workshop to learn what people with real issues are DOING.
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            • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
              This isn't so much a lack of confidence thing as a "I need this absolutely to work" thing. I can't afford to put something out that doesn't give me the best chance of having a successful product.
              Never in a million years would I get involved in a project where the client had that as a mindset. It leads to disasters, every single time. (I got into such situations unknowingly and badly regretted it.)

              I would suggest you do whatever you have to do to get out of that mindset, whether you find a way to hire a copywriter or do it yourself.

              You are putting pressure on an activity that will never, because of the sheer nature of it, yield certainty.

              The answer to your dilemma has to do with changing your mental set about your promotion, not with whether or not to hire a copywriter, in my opinion.

              Marcia Yudkin
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

                Never in a million years would I get involved in a project where the client had that as a mindset. It leads to disasters, every single time. (I got into such situations unknowingly and badly regretted it.)

                I would suggest you do whatever you have to do to get out of that mindset, whether you find a way to hire a copywriter or do it yourself.

                You are putting pressure on an activity that will never, because of the sheer nature of it, yield certainty.

                The answer to your dilemma has to do with changing your mental set about your promotion, not with whether or not to hire a copywriter, in my opinion.

                Marcia Yudkin
                In English please? Are you saying that I should just say "screw it" have faith in my product, write the copy myself, and let the chips fall where they may and then make adjustments based on whatever results I get?

                If so, that's what it appears I'm going to have to do anyway.

                If not, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

                As for Gibiz's tirade above, not worth commenting on as he knows nothing about me, my life or my situation.

                Oh, and yeah, I knew coming to this place I was walking into a mine field as I've heard all the horror stories about how brutal everyone here is. Whatever. If anybody here thinks putting me down is going to discourage me, they're wrong. I will make this work. I don't know how yet. But I will. And then I can come back here and tell everybody I told you so.

                What would have been nice would have been advice other than get a job,

                Though I am not in the least surprised. See, I used to talk to people like that too before I fell off my pedestal and realized that even the mighty can fall on hard times.

                So no, I'm not going to go out and get a minimum wage job that will end up taking me months just to save up enough money to hire a copywriter while hating every second of my life doing it. Been there, done that, ain't doing it again. Would rather be dead.

                I'll find a way. I'll make this work.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
        My advice is to treat your websites like a bootstrap project. Use free methods to create and promote them. Then take the profits and reinvest them into improvements. Improvements like better graphics, even a paid copy critique.

        I wouldn't worry about affiliates at this point. Unless you're giving them the lion's share of each sale, they're going to want to see a strong EPC in order to promote.

        I don't think you'll like hearing this but IMHO, most experienced copywriters probably won't be interested in your project either. At least not unless you're able to sell them on the benefits of partnering with you with things like already having a large responsive house list in place or the ability to drive a ton of traffic to the salesletter.

        Paul Myers has a long-running thread in the main discussion on raising cash quickly that might be helpful for you to brainstorm ideas.

        If I were you, I'd consider running a WSO for content creation or ghostwriting.

        The other direction I'd consider is Kindle publishing. Removes the need for a long salesletter. Removes the need for traffic generation too... at least in the early stages. Obviously, if you have a book or book series that is doing well, you may opt to drive traffic to it.

        Best course I've seen to date is Geoff Shaw's Kindling program because it covers everything from book creation to marketing related to Kindle. There's even some stuff on other digital platforms besides Kindle too. You can find in the WSO section so when funds permit, you may decide to pick it up.

        Jonny Andrews had a great Kindle course a few years ago... it's no longer on the market but if you're able to get on his email list, he periodically does some great webinars on Kindle marketing that are worth checking out.

        Good luck,

        Mike
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        Kickstart Your Copywriting Business: How To Get Loads of New Clients FAST!

        Kick-A$$ Eight-Figure Producing Copywriting Gun For Hire | Marketing & Copywriting Blog
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

          My advice is to treat your websites like a bootstrap project. Use free methods to create and promote them. Then take the profits and reinvest them into improvements. Improvements like better graphics, even a paid copy critique.

          I wouldn't worry about affiliates at this point. Unless you're giving them the lion's share of each sale, they're going to want to see a strong EPC in order to promote.

          I don't think you'll like hearing this but IMHO, most experienced copywriters probably won't be interested in your project either. At least not unless you're able to sell them on the benefits of partnering with you with things like already having a large responsive house list in place or the ability to drive a ton of traffic to the salesletter.

          Paul Myers has a long-running thread in the main discussion on raising cash quickly that might be helpful for you to brainstorm ideas.

          If I were you, I'd consider running a WSO for content creation or ghostwriting.

          The other direction I'd consider is Kindle publishing. Removes the need for a long salesletter. Removes the need for traffic generation too... at least in the early stages. Obviously, if you have a book or book series that is doing well, you may opt to drive traffic to it.

          Best course I've seen to date is Geoff Shaw's Kindling program because it covers everything from book creation to marketing related to Kindle. There's even some stuff on other digital platforms besides Kindle too. You can find in the WSO section so when funds permit, you may decide to pick it up.

          Jonny Andrews had a great Kindle course a few years ago... it's no longer on the market but if you're able to get on his email list, he periodically does some great webinars on Kindle marketing that are worth checking out.

          Good luck,

          Mike
          To answer one point you brought up, affiliates will get 75% of each $29.95 sale. I don't know if that makes a difference or not as far as your response.

          That much I've learned. You have to make it worth while for them to promote.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            To answer one point you brought up, affiliates will get 75% of each $29.95 sale. I don't know if that makes a difference or not as far as your response.

            That much I've learned. You have to make it worth while for them to promote.
            I've written a lot of copy and done product launches in the weight loss niche so I'm speaking from experience in terms of those affiliates. They won't be interested in promoting a $30 product. Not when there are a ton of other products at $47-97 offering 75% commissions with proven gravity (aka track records) through ClickBank. Even getting them on board for a $47 product is tough unless you have an existing relationship with them or you can show them pre-launch EPCs of at least $1.00.

            Maybe the music niche would be different but my gut feeling is not good on getting them to promote a $30 product.
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

              I've written a lot of copy and done product launches in the weight loss niche so I'm speaking from experience in terms of those affiliates. They won't be interested in promoting a $30 product. Not when there are a ton of other products at $47-97 offering 75% commissions with proven gravity (aka track records) through ClickBank. Even getting them on board for a $47 product is tough unless you have an existing relationship with them or you can show them pre-launch EPCs of at least $1.00.

              Maybe the music niche would be different but my gut feeling is not good on getting them to promote a $30 product.
              Well, I could raise the price of the product but to do that I would have to offer more than the 5 CDs they're getting. I'd have to create maybe 10 CDs. That would take me another 75 days beyond July 31 to create. So now we're looking at a September 15 release date. I'm sure I could get $49.95 for 10 CDs. But like you said, affiliates probably won't care anyway because it's not a $100 product. So I have to rely on the exercise sites themselves to promote. Even so, they're still going to want to know that the product sells.

              So if nothing else, you probably made me realize that it's pointless to waste my money on a copywriter for a product that nobody will want to promote.

              The irony of all this is, the product itself is something that I know dieters and exercisers would want. It fills a very specific sub niche. So I guess what I might have to do is write a promotional campaign directed at marketers to help them see how much potential this niche has.

              Anyway, thanks for the feedback. It is very much appreciated.

              Oh, read the book. It is very basic info and nothing I didn't already know. But it's good to be reminded of the basics.
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              • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


                The irony of all this is, the product itself is something that I know dieters and exercisers would want. It fills a very specific sub niche. So I guess what I might have to do is write a promotional campaign directed at marketers to help them see how much potential this niche has.
                The time you spend writing a promotional campaign is time you could spend marketing it yourself.

                Any savvy affiliate/JV will want to see the size of the subniche (proof of prospective customers), proven EPC, and probably a reciprocal mailing in return.

                My advice is to do some niche research. Get proof on the size of the subniche and what is selling really well already. Take what is already selling well and look for ways you could improve it.

                Maybe it's a matter of packing your product as a digital download or a DVD instead. Maybe it's a product that the subniche doesn't want to buy, no matter how helpful it might be for them.

                My point is, nail down the research and make sure it's a viable and profitable subniche before you spend any time creating a product for it.

                Good luck,

                Mike
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                • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                  Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

                  The time you spend writing a promotional campaign is time you could spend marketing it yourself.

                  Any savvy affiliate/JV will want to see the size of the subniche (proof of prospective customers), proven EPC, and probably a reciprocal mailing in return.

                  My advice is to do some niche research. Get proof on the size of the subniche and what is selling really well already. Take what is already selling well and look for ways you could improve it.

                  Maybe it's a matter of packing your product as a digital download or a DVD instead. Maybe it's a product that the subniche doesn't want to buy, no matter how helpful it might be for them.

                  My point is, nail down the research and make sure it's a viable and profitable subniche before you spend any time creating a product for it.

                  Good luck,

                  Mike
                  The product is already in the creation stage and will be completed by the end of the month. It was actually suggested to me by people looking for it. I didn't come up with the idea myself. So I know it's viable. How large a market? Not huge like diet pills or anything like that, but big enough to generate a steady income.

                  Enough to make affiliates want to promote it? No idea. But based on what you've told me, probably not. So I am pretty much on my own here and will have to do as you say, promote it myself.

                  Of course that now leaves me with the same problem I had with my MMO business. I don't know how to generate traffic on my own. At least not any sizable amount of it. If I did, my last business wouldn't have died as I already had products marketers wanted...over 300 of them. I still do. But I could never get affiliates to promote any of them either. Didn't matter when article directory marketing was effective. Now it's not. So I went out of business. I figured getting out of MMO and creating a product outside of it would, at the very least, remove the "I can prove I make money" crap that people in that niche have to go through, especially since I'm no longer making money in that niche. I can't sell what I can't prove I can go. That's hypocritical and just plain wrong. It's what too many marketers are already doing just to make a buck, faking it. I won't do that.

                  So this is my shot now. I'm not going into a niche that I have no passion for. At least this is something I enjoy. Somehow, I'll find a way to make it work. Plus, this isn't my only iron in the fire music wise. I'm also considering starting a video creation service utilizing that new software Easy Sketch Pro and my own musical tracks. That's down the road after I complete this project and get it out the door. Something will click. I have to believe that.
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                  • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    Of course that now leaves me with the same problem I had with my MMO business. I don't know how to generate traffic on my own. At least not any sizable amount of it. If I did, my last business wouldn't have died as I already had products marketers wanted...over 300 of them. I still do. But I could never get affiliates to promote any of them either. Didn't matter when article directory marketing was effective. Now it's not. So I went out of business. I figured getting out of MMO and creating a product outside of it would, at the very least, remove the "I can prove I make money" crap that people in that niche have to go through, especially since I'm no longer making money in that niche. I can't sell what I can't prove I can go. That's hypocritical and just plain wrong. It's what too many marketers are already doing just to make a buck, faking it. I won't do that.
                    Then I'd suggest focusing on learning how to drive loads of free traffic.

                    If you have over 300 products in the MMO niche, then I'd narrow it down to the ones you feel are worthy of continuing to promote and drive free traffic to them. Even if it's "only" 3 products (1%) of your old products, then it's already in place and just needs you to drive traffic to them.

                    Best of luck,

                    Mike
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                  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
                    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                    So this is my shot now. I'm not going into a niche that I have no passion for. At least this is something I enjoy. Somehow, I'll find a way to make it work. .
                    This. For the entire thread, you've been focused on how you're in dire straights. Outright repeating yourself in fact, and being a tad sarcastic with people who are giving you damn good advice, even if it's not what you want to hear.

                    But you still have hope. You're not entirely convinced you're as bad off as you're painting the picture to be. That line I quoted? Says it all.

                    Now you either have to do something big and weigh the risks of losing it all against the potential upside, or you have to do what you've been advised to do - start slow.

                    To me, it sounds like you're uncomfortable with both risk-taking AND going slowly. You're gonna have to pick one, son.

                    You may not have liked Gordon's advice, but you need to look up the Raising Money Fast thread like he said. It helped me get out of living in my car with my cat while I worked at coffee shops with free wifi.

                    When you're bootstrapping, you need to take your mind off the stress as much as possible. Otherwise your fear will paralyze you into inaction.

                    Take it from someone who was once in a back-against-the-wall situation much like you.

                    Patience. Keep moving forward. Make sure your main priorities (eating, sleeping, etc.) are taken care of. As long as you keep learning, improving, and DOING, with time you'll be in a better place.

                    As a friend of mine is fond of saying, everything will be alright in the end. If it's not alright, it's not the end.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

                      This. For the entire thread, you've been focused on how you're in dire straights. Outright repeating yourself in fact, and being a tad sarcastic with people who are giving you damn good advice, even if it's not what you want to hear.

                      But you still have hope. You're not entirely convinced you're as bad off as you're painting the picture to be. That line I quoted? Says it all.

                      Now you either have to do something big and weigh the risks of losing it all against the potential upside, or you have to do what you've been advised to do - start slow.

                      To me, it sounds like you're uncomfortable with both risk-taking AND going slowly. You're gonna have to pick one, son.

                      You may not have liked Gordon's advice, but you need to look up the Raising Money Fast thread like he said. It helped me get out of living in my car with my cat while I worked at coffee shops with free wifi.

                      When you're bootstrapping, you need to take your mind off the stress as much as possible. Otherwise your fear will paralyze you into inaction.

                      Take it from someone who was once in a back-against-the-wall situation much like you.

                      Patience. Keep moving forward. Make sure your main priorities (eating, sleeping, etc.) are taken care of. As long as you keep learning, improving, and DOING, with time you'll be in a better place.

                      As a friend of mine is fond of saying, everything will be alright in the end. If it's not alright, it's not the end.
                      Thank you. You hit the nail right on the head. I am very uncomfortable with risk taking and going slow is like torture for me. But you're right, I have to pick one. I can't avoid both of them. This isn't going to happen quickly if I don't take chances.

                      Ultimately, I have to decide what I'm more comfortable with. Since I have to consider my wife in all this, and she is concerned about our future even though she has a good job (thank God) I don't think SHE would be comfortable with me sinking tons of money into this. As it is, just to be able to set up this business I had to sink 10 grand into it. That's all there was. I wish I had the extra 2 G's for a sales letter, but I don't. That's all there is to it.

                      So I guess you've helped me make my decision. I'm going to have to take this slow at the beginning and hopefully raise enough money over time to hire a copywriter to improve what I've done, provided I can even generate enough traffic to make that worth while.

                      I guess it's true what they say. It takes money to make money. Had I the funds, this whole process is simple.

                      1) Hire copywriter
                      2) Setup PPC campaign.

                      Done.

                      It doesn't get any simpler or more basic than that. I just can't do it right now.

                      So the slow route it is. Thank you for putting this in a clear enough manner that I can understand it.
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  • Profile picture of the author geekology
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    It's been 11 and a half years (yesterday) since I started my online business. From day one, I have always written my own sales letters along with all my other content which included articles, autoresponder series and whole ebooks.

    Of all these things, copywriting has been the one thing I feel is more talent driven than anything else and the hardest to master. And here's why.

    You can learn everything you want about headlines and sub heads and bullet points and constructing your "story" and AIDA and blah, blah, blah.

    But nobody can turn you into a gifted writer.

    Read the best sales letters through the ages. It's not the formula of the sales letter that made it great because any monkey can follow a list of instructions on how to technically construct a sales letter. I should know. I've been doing it by the "numbers" for 11 years. No, the great sales letters are great because they're written by great writers, people with real talent, something I have finally come to realize I am sorely lacking.

    Sure, my sales letters over the years converted okay. But I never had a knock 'em out of the park hit. Why? Because I'm an average writer at best. I don't have that spit and polish that the great ones have. And I certainly don't have their flare for painting pictures with their words.

    This is caused me to sit down and ask myself why. Is it because I don't have the innate talent to write that well or is it simply that I've been writing about something I have very little real passion for?

    Well, I immediately rejected the latter for this simple reason. The great copywriters can write for just about any niche. They certainly can't be passionate about all of them. So that can't be it.

    So it has to be talent, plain and simple.

    The question is, can talent be learned?

    No, I'm not gonna get into that because I just wrote an article on the subject as it applies to music. I'll just say that I don't think it can be. I think it can be developed to some degree but I truly believe that the ability to write like some of these people write is something you're born with. I have no scientific evidence to back that up. It's just what I believe.

    Why am I even going on about all this? Well, there is a reason.

    My old business in the MMO niche crashed and burned because of my traffic drying up after the Google slap on article directories. In short, my business model was flawed as far as traffic generation went and I paid the price.

    I am now starting over from scratch. I have several musical projects in the work. One of them I am 99% sure will be a big success as it has to do with the diet and exercise niche and targeting a segment with a product that has very little competition.

    Here is my problem.

    I need a solid sale letter so that I can attract affiliates. I do not trust my own skills to write it but I cannot afford any of you guys as I am broke. The money just isn't there. So I'm kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everything else is solid. The product WILL sell. There is no question about that. After I approach all the top diet and exercise sites and get enough affiliates, the sales will come pouring in, provided the sales letter does its job.

    Is it possible that I can write a decent sales letter so that, while conversions may not be maximized, I can still do "okay"? Yeah, it's possible. But I can't chance it. I'm pretty much treading water right now and need this to be a success. Now when I say success I'm not talking about it generating a six figure income for me. If I make 1 to 2 grand a month that's all I need to get me over the hump with my wife's income.

    No, I didn't come here looking for any handouts or favors. I know how long it takes to write a sales letter and your time is valuable. I guess what I'm looking for is some advice.

    Oddly, I'm more concerned with how the sales letter looks than how it reads as I am a terrible site designer. That's going to kill my letter before people even read it. As for the words, I think I'm good enough to convert at a measly half a percent. But will I be able to get affiliates with that low a conversion rate? If not, then I'm relying on my own traffic gen methods to make sales and that's the area I am weakest in.

    Anyway, that's about it. I really admire you guys that can write the way you do. I wish I had your talent. But I've never had more than an 8th grade vocabulary (most likely because I never liked to read) and I'm kind of paying the price today.

    Feeback of any kind is welcome.
    If this is written by you, you were already able to captivate me enough to read through till the last line.

    All I feel from your message is that may be because of some past bad experience you feel under confident at the moment. While being a top notch copywriter is certainly a gift , I see people even from non-English speaking nations able to do decent sales with a backing of a solid product. Since as you mentioned, you already have one, that is not an issue at all.

    Please take a break if required, join a course , read Jay Abraham's free material, I am sure you will start feeling better and will start to rock again.

    All the best!
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by geekology View Post

      If this is written by you, you were already able to captivate me enough to read through till the last line.

      All I feel from your message is that may be because of some past bad experience you feel under confident at the moment. While being a top notch copywriter is certainly a gift , I see people even from non-English speaking nations able to do decent sales with a backing of a solid product. Since as you mentioned, you already have one, that is not an issue at all.

      Please take a break if required, join a course , read Jay Abraham's free material, I am sure you will start feeling better and will start to rock again.

      All the best!
      Thanks. I appreciate the kind words, but over the years I have learned to recognize the difference between a great sales letter and an okay one or even a fairly good one.

      This isn't so much a lack of confidence thing as a "I need this absolutely to work" thing. I can't afford to put something out that doesn't give me the best chance of having a successful product.

      I guess an option would be to write the sales letter myself, test it and then if it doesn't convert, hire a copywriter.

      But then there is the issue of sales letter design. I am a terrible designer. And for this niche, the design has to be top notch. Anything less and it will seriously damage the credibility of the product. I know this niche very well and I know what they're used to seeing. What they're used to seeing, I can't reproduce.

      Finally, if I test with my own sales letter, because of the traffic generation issues, it's going to take me a long time to find out if the letter is any good. If it's not, I then have to essentially start from scratch in getting a copywriter. That could be anywhere from 6 months to a year or more depending on how quickly I can get enough impressions to show affiliates a decent conversion rate.

      If I thought I could make enough sales on my own without affiliates, I wouldn't care. I'd just launch and be done with it. But this isn't the MMO niche where I can reach out to another marketer to pitch to his list. This product doesn't sell to other marketers. It sells to people looking to lose weight partially through the use of music. For that, I need affiliates. At the very least, I will need some big exercise sites to help me promote. And they in turn won't do that without having conversion stats. If I've learned nothing else in 11 years I've learned that much. Nobody is going to promote this product, especially in today's economy, without reasonable certainty that they can make money from promoting it.

      I am wracking my brains trying to find an alternative. That's why I came here. Maybe somebody can think of something that I've overlooked, a back door so to speak. I'm too close to this whole thing to really think straight. Everything else is in place or will be in place with the exception of the sales letter. I have been working on this product since the end of May. It will be completed at the end of this month. Music takes a long time to write. It can't be rushed. Not if it's going to be good.

      Anyway, that's where I am. Again, I'm just looking for something that maybe I've missed or overlooked. But I don't see a lot of options as far as how to get this product selling.
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  • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
    You need to take some small steps that are either free or cost very little to get your business going and then reinvest. Use what you have...your time and the skills you do have. In short, start where you are.

    Best wishes,

    Thomas O'Malley
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
    Steve,

    What the hell is going on with you? You are crying so hard in your beer
    you can't see the dollars which are sitting on your own computer right in front of you.

    Come on Dude take your head out of your a**, wipe your glasses off and start
    thinking about how to re-purpose all your e-books into short reports. Rewrite the
    titles, pick out the best of the information, copy and paste some of it and rewrite
    the rest into a new pdf and away you go.

    You certainly write well enough and can structure a WSO sales letter without
    all the bells and whistles that everyone is using now. KISS!


    IMO the more you talk about not knowing the more you are shooting yourself
    in the foot, especially on this forum. As you know when folks smell fear or
    a loser attitude then they run the opposite direction.

    I'm extremely disappointed with your replies to Mike and Gordon.

    Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Ken Leatherman View Post

      Steve,

      What the hell is going on with you? You are crying so hard in your beer
      you can't see the dollars which are sitting on your own computer right in front of you.

      Come on Dude take your head out of your a**, wipe your glasses off and start
      thinking about how to re-purpose all your e-books into short reports. Rewrite the
      titles, pick out the best of the information, copy and paste some of it and rewrite
      the rest into a new pdf and away you go.

      You certainly write well enough and can structure a WSO sales letter without
      all the bells and whistles that everyone is using now. KISS!


      IMO the more you talk about not knowing the more you are shooting yourself
      in the foot, especially on this forum. As you know when folks smell fear or
      a loser attitude then they run the opposite direction.

      I'm extremely disappointed with your replies to Mike and Gordon.

      Ken
      Ken, I don't want anything to do with the MMO niche anymore. I got out of it because with the traffic drying up from my articles I was down to making $300 a month off of WSOs. It wasn't worth my time anymore. Yeah, I could do all that. I'll maybe make a few hundred bucks. It's not worth it. I don't want to waste time on something that's part time income at best. I did that for two years after the well ran dry before I finally said enough. I have to get into something where I don't have to depend on article directories and WSOs to make money because that was all I knew.

      I'm sorry if you're disappointed with me. It doesn't matter if everybody in this forum runs away from me. They're not my target market any longer. I am out of this niche. I am into music now. If they don't want to give me their services (copywriting, web design, whatever it is) then I'll do it myself. I succeeded on my own by myself before. I can do it again.
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      • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
        Steven,

        In plain English, there is no copywriter in the world who can guarantee success on one given promotion.

        Just as there is no hitter in the world that can guarantee a hit on any one pitch. No one can!

        Is that plain enough?

        Putting a "do or die" mindset on your copy is disastrous.

        It may work, it may not. That is reality. No matter who the copywriter is.

        Marcia Yudkin
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

          Steven,

          In plain English, there is no copywriter in the world who can guarantee success on one given promotion.

          Just as there is no hitter in the world that can guarantee a hit on any one pitch. No one can!

          Is that plain enough?

          Putting a "do or die" mindset on your copy is disastrous.

          It may work, it may not. That is reality. No matter who the copywriter is.

          Marcia Yudkin
          So then I have just as good a shot doing the copy myself as hiring a copywriter? Or does a pro at least give me a better shot? If so, the question is, how much better and is it worth the investment? I guess we call that risk.

          But I get what you're saying. No guarantees. I understand that. I just wanted to give myself the best shot at making this succeed. I felt a pro would do that. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it won't matter either way.

          But I do need to make this work. I can't accept failure. Failure means some very ugly alternatives that I'm not ready to accept. So, will determination be enough? Well, it was in 2003 when I started this insanity.

          I have to believe it will be enough now.
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          • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            So then I have just as good a shot doing the copy myself as hiring a copywriter? Or does a pro at least give me a better shot?
            A pro isn't going to touch this.

            A newb, maybe. But you're taking an even bigger risk there.
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          • Profile picture of the author Brad Callen
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            So then I have just as good a shot doing the copy myself as hiring a copywriter? Or does a pro at least give me a better shot? If so, the question is, how much better and is it worth the investment? I guess we call that risk.

            But I get what you're saying. No guarantees. I understand that. I just wanted to give myself the best shot at making this succeed. I felt a pro would do that. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it won't matter either way.

            But I do need to make this work. I can't accept failure. Failure means some very ugly alternatives that I'm not ready to accept. So, will determination be enough? Well, it was in 2003 when I started this insanity.

            I have to believe it will be enough now.
            Hey Steve, I've been looking for a good copywriter for probably 10 years now. I've paid anywhere from $800 to $15,000 for a single sales letter and NONE of them converted high enough to be useful. People will say they're good. People will call themselves professional copywriters, but I have not once received sales copy that "worked" and always re-wrote it, from scratch, myself.

            Yet, I too, find myself thinking there has to be a "professional" copywriter that can live up to the talk. My advice, just write it yourself. Take a few days without looking at it. Come back and re-read it out loud. Fix what sounds bad or boring. Take another day or 2 without looking at it at all and come back and do the same thing again. Do this several more times. Put yourself in the mindset of your perfect customer and be super critical about your own copy, asking yourself what possible objections someone could have. Don't over complicate things. You have 17,000 posts in here in the forum. You know what you're doing. It's just a matter of following through and doing it all. You CAN do it!

            Brad
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            • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
              Originally Posted by Brad Callen View Post

              Hey Steve, I've been looking for a good copywriter for probably 10 years now. I've paid anywhere from $800 to $15,000 for a single sales letter and NONE of them converted high enough to be useful. People will say they're good. People will call themselves professional copywriters, but I have not once received sales copy that "worked" and always re-wrote it, from scratch, myself.
              So are you the world's last great copywriter or are you really bad at outsourcing?
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim R
    What kind of advice were you expecting to get? Sounds like you were hoping someone was going to jump in and write the copy for you out of the goodness of their heart. Why would anyone do that, or want to get involved with you in any capacity whatsoever, when you're displaying such a defeatist attitude?

    You're stuck in the victim mentality and you'll never have any success until you break out of it. As soon as you accept responsibility for the position you're in, you can start taking the steps to improve it.

    All the excuses you're making are BS. If you don't know how to get traffic, educate yourself. Can't write a sales letter because you think you can't write well enough? Create a VSL. Think the market won't buy a great product because the graphic design isn't top notch? You've got no idea what you're talking about.

    If you're expecting pity and sympathy, you won't find it here. Many people have it worse off than you and find a way to succeed. All the information you need is here on these forums... open your eyes and use it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Tim R View Post

      What kind of advice were you expecting to get? Sounds like you were hoping someone was going to jump in and write the copy for you out of the goodness of their heart. Why would anyone do that, or want to get involved with you in any capacity whatsoever, when you're displaying such a defeatist attitude?

      You're stuck in the victim mentality and you'll never have any success until you break out of it. As soon as you accept responsibility for the position you're in, you can start taking the steps to improve it.

      All the excuses you're making are BS. If you don't know how to get traffic, educate yourself. Can't write a sales letter because you think you can't write well enough? Create a VSL. Think the market won't buy a great product because the graphic design isn't top notch? You've got no idea what you're talking about.

      If you're expecting pity and sympathy, you won't find it here. Many people have it worse off than you and find a way to succeed. All the information you need is here on these forums... open your eyes and use it.
      First of all, I do accept responsibility for the mess I'm in. I had a faulty business model. many tried to warn me that it would crash and burn, that article directories were going to die. I didn't listen.

      But I did have success once (for 8 years in fact) so I can do it again. I'm not expecting sympathy, pity and certainly nobody to write a sales letter for me for nothing. Hell, I've been flat out told that they wouldn't touch this project even for money. So fine, I'm on my own. I've always been on my own and had no trouble before. I can do this again. I came for advice, not a put down session. Of course that comes with the territory at this sub forum, so it's all good. I've developed a thick skin hanging out at this rat hole. Trust me, this place toughens you up to abuse and ridicule. And believe me, I could dish it out as good as I get it but I can't risk getting banned so I'll just shut my mouth, bite my tongue, thank you for your input and go do my thing.

      It's no wonder hardly anybody comes to this forum outside of the boys club.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tim R
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I can do this again. I came for advice, not a put down session.
        Actually you've been given some great advice, it's just that you don't want to hear it.

        For you to accept the advice would mean letting go of the current self-image you have, which clearly you're not ready to do.

        P.S. I saw a guy this afternoon with no arms or legs, begging on the sidewalk, dragging himself along on his stomach. Maybe you'd like to sit down sometime with him and tell him all about how hard you've got it?
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        • Profile picture of the author splitTest
          Originally Posted by Tim R View Post

          P.S. I saw a guy this afternoon with no arms or legs, begging on the sidewalk, dragging himself along on his stomach.
          okay -- how was this guy dragging himself along?
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      • Profile picture of the author Lance K
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


        I am now starting over from scratch. I have several musical projects in the work. One of them I am 99% sure will be a big success as it has to do with the diet and exercise niche and targeting a segment with a product that has very little competition.

        Here is my problem.
        You need proof of concept. Saying you're 99% sure it'll be successful isn't proof of concept. Worrying about who writes the copy is putting the cart before the horse. As Gary Bencivenga says, a gifted product is mightier than a gifted pen. Go make sure you really have a gifted product.


        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        It's no wonder hardly anybody comes to this forum outside of the boys club.
        Yet you came in here anyway. Just what exactly were you expecting? That people would tell you what you wanted to hear because you have 11 years of experience? You got a lot of good advice in this thread.

        I have this vision of a brick wall with "Steve's Way" written on it that's sitting right between where you are and where you want to go. The replies you've received so far could be used to build a ladder to go over that wall, dig a tunnel under it, or simply help you navigate around it. But you seem to have your mind made up that running through it is the only viable option.
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    Nobody here was putting you down. They actually are being quite helpful, but they're not mincing words to save ego.

    There's a difference between insulting and someone saying something you don't want to hear. One is intended to hurt, and one is intended to help. You should think about what's been said here as the latter.
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    This product feels like it will need a ton of proof. One thing you can do now while working on the other stuff is build some killer case studies. I would get some video of people using the product successfully. You'll need a great demo. You can do it without video, but it will be more difficult.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

      This product feels like it will need a ton of proof. One thing you can do now while working on the other stuff is build some killer case studies. I would get some video of people using the product successfully. You'll need a great demo. You can do it without video, but it will be more difficult.
      Actually, it's not that kind of product. It's using music in a certain way to exercise to. Essentially, it's an exercise kit in a musical box. The only thing that will make or break the sale is if the don't like what they hear. The sales letter will have 30 second samples of each track so they can hear before they commit.

      Truth is, this is going to be a very easy product to sell as long as I make the quality top notch and price it so that it's a no brainer.

      So no, proof will have no effect on this as I have nothing to prove. You want great structured music routines to exercise to? Here they are. Done.

      I won't say anymore about the product than that because I don't want somebody taking the idea and running with it. The market is there and the competition, relatively speaking, is light. Even Paul Myers sounded like he thought it was an "interesting" idea when I wrote to him about it. He didn't say so in so many words but if he wants to weigh in here and say what he thinks of it, without giving too much away, he's welcome to.

      Point is, I believe in this product and I know it can sell, easily. I just want to make sure that I present it as professionally as possible. I believed I needed a polished sales letter from a pro to do that,. but maybe not. Maybe I can do this on my own.

      From the responses I've gotten (nobody will touch this) looks like that's exactly what I'm going to have to do.

      No prob.

      It's how I've been doing things for 11 years.
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    Got it. Let me ask you: would it make any sense to start off with a smaller product, say, 1 CD to get some sales going? Your development costs will be less, and then you could scale as money comes in. A test program, so to speak. In TV terms, a pilot episode.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

      Got it. Let me ask you: would it make any sense to start off with a smaller product, say, 1 CD to get some sales going? Your development costs will be less, and then you could scale as money comes in. A test program, so to speak. In TV terms, a pilot episode.
      I was actually considering that at first, starting with 3 CDs, which are already complete. But I wanted to overdeliver. If I've learned nothing else in 11 years it's that the more you give the more you're likely to succeed. So I didn't want to cut corners. I made up my mind to put out the best product I can right out of the gate, no matter how long it took. I believe if I do it right the first time, I won't have to redo it down the road.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I made up my mind to put out the best product I can right out of the gate, no matter how long it took.
        Didn't take all that long - people in OT suggested this particular project to you about 2 weeks ago. Market research? Testing? Have you even asked anyone for their opinion on the product?
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          Didn't take all that long - people in OT suggested this particular project to you about 2 weeks ago. Market research? Testing? Have you even asked anyone for their opinion on the product?
          I started working on the project 5/27. That's over a month ago. And the only reason I have as much of it done as I do is because I literally work day and night. Any "normal" person would take months to finish all this if not longer. And I'm still only 3/5 done with it.

          And that's just creating the music. Then there's setting up an autoresponder to collect leads to follow up in case they don't purchase on the first visit. There's doing the sale page. There is contacting all the exercise sites to see if they'll promote it. There's promoting to get affiliates. There is writing content to drive traffic to the sales page and/or site.

          There is so much left to do. Creating the product is just part of the battle. This isn't going to happen overnight. I've been doing this long enough to realize this will take time. My very first IM product took 10 months to create. This isn't going to go that much faster to get all the pieces in place.

          But when they are in place, I can be confident that I've done everything in my power to make this thing a success. And if it's not, at least I can know that I did everything possible. I don't want to turn around and say "If I had only done this." There can be no regrets here.

          That's why I am 99% sure that this project WILL be a success. I have a couple of members at this forum who have offered to help me with some little things like promotion. But it looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet and write the sales letter myself. I'll just take my time on it, make sure I know what the market wants and hit all the right pain points. That's going to take the longest amount of time, knowing exactly why they want the product. I'm pretty sure I know but I need to verify before release.

          Like I said, everything has to be just right before I let this thing go out the door.
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          • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
            So I guess you've helped me make my decision. I'm going to have to take this slow at the beginning and hopefully raise enough money over time to hire a copywriter to improve what I've done, provided I can even generate enough traffic to make that worth while.
            Yup, this is what you need to do.

            And it's not a bad thing...

            I mean it'd be great to have a copywriter working with you from the off...

            But when you do it this way, it allows you to test the offer/copy on a small number of people... and optimise from there (hopefully by the end you'll have worked with a copywriter.)

            Then, not only do you have a well-oiled machine, but proof of sales... so it's time to send big traffic to it and see it rock (or is it techno? )

            Chris
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      • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I was actually considering that at first, starting with 3 CDs, which are already complete. But I wanted to overdeliver. If I've learned nothing else in 11 years it's that the more you give the more you're likely to succeed. So I didn't want to cut corners. I made up my mind to put out the best product I can right out of the gate, no matter how long it took. I believe if I do it right the first time, I won't have to redo it down the road.
        Over-delivering doesn't necessarily mean more quantity. Over-delivering is simply delivering more value than was expected. In many cases that can be done with a single item.

        You say this is music to exercise to, right? Maybe you can't say, but I want to make sure you've thought of this . . . what makes your music to exercise to different from simply firing up a CD of my favorite band to exercise to?

        As I read the thread I was going to suggest what Joe Golfer suggested, write the sales copy and post it for a critique. If you wait until the product is ready before you post it here (you could write it at any time though) then you'd be way ahead of anyone who might want to "steal" your idea.

        If that was the last step before you released the product, then they wouldn't be gaining much over simply stealing it after it's released.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

          Over-delivering doesn't necessarily mean more quantity. Over-delivering is simply delivering more value than was expected. In many cases that can be done with a single item.

          You say this is music to exercise to, right? Maybe you can't say, but I want to make sure you've thought of this . . . what makes your music to exercise to different from simply firing up a CD of my favorite band to exercise to?

          As I read the thread I was going to suggest what Joe Golfer suggested, write the sales copy and post it for a critique. If you wait until the product is ready before you post it here (you could write it at any time though) then you'd be way ahead of anyone who might want to "steal" your idea.

          If that was the last step before you released the product, then they wouldn't be gaining much over simply stealing it after it's released.
          What makes this different has to do with the way most, if not all, music CDs are laid out as in how the songs are grouped.

          Let's say somebody wanted a CD with nothing but songs that were exactly 5 minutes in length. I'm not saying that's what my collection is because I don't want to reveal my "secret" but I'm using 5 minutes as an example.

          How many CDs have songs with a steady beat suitable for dancing that are exactly 5 minutes for each track? I can't think of one. So what the user would have to do is search out the Internet for all these 5 minute tracks and download them each individually. This is time consuming.

          Now, my type of grouping is much more intricate than that and CRITICAL to a structured exercise routine where the user incorporates music into the routine. The time it would take for the user to accumulate these tracks, something that they would need to use certain software in order to even identify, would be astronomical and not worth the effort unless they were dirt broke and this was the only way to do it.

          I can't say more than that without revealing exactly what I'm doing. I need special software in order to even create the tracks or they wouldn't be as "exact" as they need to be.

          That is what makes my product unique and something that a hardcore dancerciser would want.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
    Steve and other Warriors,

    This link will take you to an awesome video on
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    It is just plain awesome: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...818797&fref=nf
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  • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
    In many cases, honest, straightforward advice is required, especially in your type of situation.

    As others have clearly said, you definitely need to dump the defeatist mentality and start taking constructive steps...even if just one small step every day to get you back on track.

    Read some inspiring material in your library to help you move forward.

    I believe everyone is genuinely trying to help you.

    Kindest regards,

    Thomas O'Malley
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    If you write it yourself, as you know you can always post your sales letter for critique here.

    I know you are limited in what you can say about the product, and you said you don't want to release a smaller version. At one point you said you know there is a market for it, and it should do well. My caution is I hear this a lot from entrepreneurs, but many don't have anything to point to as evidence.

    If you can test it somehow on a limited basis--not sure how--you would get some real world feedback, and it will help shape the final product based on comments.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I understand your need to overdeliver - I'm a perfectionist about a lot of things too. I understand really wanting to add value and to do it right.

    Here are a couple of thoughts though:

    1. You really have no clue if this will work or not if you are basing it on a couple people's ideas and/or the niche not having much competition. There may be a very good reason there is no competition - there is no money there.

    I'd suggest you figure out a way to take whatever you have now - today - and put it up for sale. Friends, which you have a lot of here on the forum - even those who show love the tough way - will all do whatever they can to encourage you, help you, support you, etc. as long as they don't have to buy it.

    In other words ask the friends that are suggesting this idea to send you some money for the product and you may quickly find out that they are friends in words only - they would never buy something like that themselves.

    The point is that the only way you can know if this will sell is to start selling it. The sooner you start doing that the sooner:
    • You can know if it will sell or not
    • You can start improving on it with a version 2.0 and really get things rolling
    • You will be able to afford a copywriter, PPC, etc. but sounds like that stuff may need to wait for version 2.0
    • You can start regaining some confidence - not based on theory or thoughts but on real life sales
    • You can start to get out of your financial straits
    Don't perfect it, don't wait, don't put it off but get something out there now. Get started now and build from that.

    2. Even the greatest sales letter on the face of the planet won't help anyone sell anything if no one sees it. You've admitted you don't know much about how to drive traffic so that needs to be a priority. Learn by doing though. Learn by getting version 1.0 out this week. Learn with a crappy sales letter and then improve on it.

    It really is all speculation, wishful thinking, etc. (been there done that - I know) without getting something out there for sale which you can do this week and then learning to drive traffic to it.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Steven, you should have titled this "How to shoot yourself in the foot - in 3 easy lessons".

    Why in God's name would you announce to the whole world that after 11 years of I.M. you are now broke? You should delete that right away. No-one wants to do business with a loser.

    You're not a loser. You just put all your eggs in one basket and the Google God slammed you. Sh*t happens... move on.

    You think you can't write? Rubbish. You write well.

    Why do you slag off the WSO section? I don't get it. Fortunes have been made there. Are still being made there. You say you don't want to bother with $300 a month off a WSO. Yet at the moment your income is nil, yeah? So run a series of WSOs.

    Our mate ICUN did $1 MILLION in a year on WSOs. Gee - you think it might be worth studying what he did?

    Your idea... sounds very interesting. Contact Jamie Lewis and ask his advice. Tell him I sent you over. He made a fortune from a Beats product on Clickwank.

    Finally... I suspect you have depression. I'm no doctor - although I'm married to one - get yourself checked out and medicated if need be. But whatever you do - stop this negative self-destructive cycle. Dude - you wrote ten zillion articles that people got something from and that made you a good quid - you can do it again.

    Finally... go to the mirror. There's a copywriter looking back at you.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      Steven, you should have titled this "How to shoot yourself in the foot - in 3 easy lessons".

      Why in God's name would you announce to the whole world that after 11 years of I.M. you are now broke? You should delete that right away. No-one wants to do business with a loser.

      You're not a loser. You just put all your eggs in one basket and the Google God slammed you. Sh*t happens... move on.

      You think you can't write? Rubbish. You write well.

      Why do you slag off the WSO section? I don't get it. Fortunes have been made there. Are still being made there. You say you don't want to bother with $300 a month off a WSO. Yet at the moment your income is nil, yeah? So run a series of WSOs.

      Our mate ICUN did $1 MILLION in a year on WSOs. Gee - you think it might be worth studying what he did?

      Your idea... sounds very interesting. Contact Jamie Lewis and ask his advice. Tell him I sent you over. He made a fortune from a Beats product on Clickwank.

      Finally... I suspect you have depression. I'm no doctor - although I'm married to one - get yourself checked out and medicated if need be. But whatever you do - stop this negative self-destructive cycle. Dude - you wrote ten zillion articles that people got something from and that made you a good quid - you can do it again.

      Finally... go to the mirror. There's a copywriter looking back at you.
      Thanks. Best laugh I've had all day. Yeah, I know I could make a few bucks off of WSOs. But after 2 years of just making a few bucks off of WSOs, I got tired of it. Yeah, I was spoiled. I was making good money doing very little work and I didn't want to work for what was essentially peanuts.

      As for being depressed, sadly, and I hate to admit this, right now is the happiest I have been since 2000. My wife and I are in a great place, my daughter met the most wonderful guy in the world (a musician no less) and I still don't have to get up in the morning and go to a dirty J.O.B.

      Plus, and this is the most important thing of all, my health issues are the least problematic that they have been now for over 3 years. Yeah, I have to take my treatments everyday and I can't eat jack squat anymore (I live on chicken, turkey, fish and salad) but relatively speaking, I feel pretty good. No, I still can't come and go as I please as I need to take my treatments 3 times each day and that makes working an outside job impossible, but at least I don't have to wonder if I'm going to have a bad day and not be able to do the things I need to do.

      And the treatments are natural. No drugs involved. Add to that, I don't smoke or drink and am not overweight and I'll probably live to be a hundred.

      I feel a little guilty that my wife has to support us, and yes, that doesn't make for the best of moods, but depressed? I have too much to be thankful for to be depressed.

      On top of all that, for the first time in my life I am making music the focus of my business. You can't even begin to imagine what that means to me after writing songs for over 35 years and getting nowhere doing it. I may not become a famous songwriter with this product, but at least I'll be able to look at it and say I made money doing something with my music. Nobody can understand how much that means to me after all these years of struggling in that area.

      Truth is, I'm happier now than I was when I had my best IM year. That year I was sick as a dog and I had totally given up on my music. I would not trade what I have now for what I had then for anything. No amount of money would be worth it.

      Maybe now you will understand me better and where I am coming from. That's why I want to make this work so badly. Yeah, I need the money. But if push comes to shove, my wife will get us through the tough times. She has before. No, this is for me. This is for my need to finally do something that I can really be proud of.

      Agree with it or not, believe it or not, it's how I really feel.
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      • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        right now is the happiest I have been since 2000.
        Well you could have fooled me. I got depressed just reading your original post. Anyway... I was trying to help you and this is how you reply? Maybe you deserve everything you're getting - until you change that mindset. But what would I know....

        Note to self: let these guys find out for themselves.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

          Well you could have fooled me. I got depressed just reading your original post. Anyway... I was trying to help you and this is how you reply? Maybe you deserve everything you're getting - until you change that mindset. But what would I know....

          Note to self: let these guys find out for themselves.
          Excuse me, Did I insult you? I told you the truth. I told you exactly how I feel. I told you more about my life the last 14 years than I've told to just about anybody else. So what exactly about my reply was so awful that you would wish me everything that I am getting?

          Talk about being totally confused.
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          • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    But I don't have to hang around here and take this.
                    True - and you can take the drama with you. It happens every time you come here with one of your crises. We could run a profitable betting pool on it - but what's that get you?

                    You posted in a thread last week "I'm living on $10 a week"....and "I charge 25 cents a WORD to write content for others"....both of which are pure BS. Then you get upset because people see you as down and out? Every time you come back here with a new "crisis"...it doesn't end well because you get your tutu in a bunch and stomp off.

                    You bash WSOs - but you ran 100 of them yourself. You put down anything YOU were not successful at doing. What does that get you?

                    It's crazy, Steven. You have skills but thin skinned and have such a need for attention, empathy and compliments....it over shadows the skills.
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                    • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
                      I got it. Having worked with persons suffering from their mental health issues, it finally clicked.

                      He can't help it. Steve is NOT responsible for his posts, YOU all (including me) have misread the whole thing. We can't help, it is impossible, there is no way for us to be able to. He hasn't gotten help of any kind for 11 years, he did it all on his own. He believes it.

                      Now, I'm being sincere, I've worked with people with similar issues. We can't enter their world, we can't see things the way they see them, and they think they are saying one thing, what is in their mind, but it comes out in a dyslexic sort of way.

                      Please. There is nothing YOU can do. No ONE can help him, he has to do things in his way, in the direction he must go...he has no control and no choice.

                      Let it go. I've been able to get through to autistic children but haven't found a way to get inside of a guy like Steve's processes.

                      You have offered some solid advice to someone in need and want of it, but, that isn't the person you are addressing. I had to consult with a few old colleagues before I was reminded of "Randy"...then suddenly, the light went off.

                      No one here is qualified to help Steve in a way in which he needs it. Wish him well, good luck and understand, he was NOT being a jerk, he is NOT trying to insult anyone, he's doing the damn best he can do.

                      Continue with Steve if you like to waste your time. (He does get a certain payoff from the interaction, but it isn't a healthy one).

                      gjabiz

                      PS. You can't help Steve, but there are others you can, may I suggest the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) or your local chapter. This would help all the Steve's out there. Even a buck or two helps.
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                      • Profile picture of the author MatthewRHallEsq
                        Originally Posted by gjabiz View Post

                        I got it. Having worked with persons suffering from their mental health issues, it finally clicked.

                        He can't help it. Steve is NOT responsible for his posts, YOU all (including me) have misread the whole thing. We can't help, it is impossible, there is no way for us to be able to. He hasn't gotten help of any kind for 11 years, he did it all on his own. He believes it.

                        ...

                        Continue with Steve if you like to waste your time. (He does get a certain payoff from the interaction, but it isn't a healthy one).
                        ^^
                        This.

                        You can't help someone who's programmed to see only what he can't do. Therein the patient must minister to himself.
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                    • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
                      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                      True - and you can take the drama with you. It happens every time you come here with one of your crises. We could run a profitable betting pool on it - but what's that get you?

                      You posted in a thread last week "I'm living on $10 a week"....and "I charge 25 cents a WORD to write content for others"....both of which are pure BS. Then you get upset because people see you as down and out? Every time you come back here with a new "crisis"...it doesn't end well because you get your tutu in a bunch and stomp off.

                      You bash WSOs - but you ran 100 of them yourself. You put down anything YOU were not successful at doing. What does that get you?

                      It's crazy, Steven. You have skills but thin skinned and have such a need for attention, empathy and compliments....it over shadows the skills.
                      Wow, good to know.

                      I'll save my keystrokes next time.

                      Did 5 years of pastoral counseling already. Heard 'nuff "I'd rather whine than change," drama to last an eternity (hope that's not what's waiting for me up there).

                      -shudders-
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    Well, the OP didn't exactly come across as "I'm finally following my passion, but here's the thing...I'm broke". It came across as "I'm at the end of my rope and this thing HAS to work or I won't make it".

    Much of the advice given was precisely because of that tone.

    Mal's right - you're a talented writer, because you evoked a consistent interpretation of that post in a variety of different readers with different personalities and backgrounds.

    But you're really quick to take offense to people responding to an "I'm desperate" post in a "here's how not to be desperate" manner. That is pretty perplexing too.

    'Cause that whole misinterpretation problem could be solved by, "maybe I was unclear because I seem to be getting a lot of X responses. What I meant was Y."
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

      Well, the OP didn't exactly come across as "I'm finally following my passion, but here's the thing...I'm broke". It came across as "I'm at the end of my rope and this thing HAS to work or I won't make it".

      Much of the advice given was precisely because of that tone.

      Mal's right - you're a talented writer, because you evoked a consistent interpretation of that post in a variety of different readers with different personalities and backgrounds.

      But you're really quick to take offense to people responding to an "I'm desperate" post in a "here's how not to be desperate" manner. That is pretty perplexing too.

      'Cause that whole misinterpretation problem could be solved by, "maybe I was unclear because I seem to be getting a lot of X responses. What I meant was Y."
      That's a fault of mine which is another reason why I don't want to write my own copy.

      What if I totally drop the ball and what I think I'm communicating is not what I meant to communicate?: Then what? I've essentially shot myself in the foot.

      So yes, maybe I should have been more clear about things. No, if this project doesn't succeed I won't be out on the street. You won't find me hanging by my neck from my basement clothesline. I won't be drinking Scotch with a rat poison chaser (I'm not actually sure which of the two is worse) but I won't be any closer to being able to take a breath and not wonder what tomorrow is going to hold in store for me. I liked it a lot better when I was able to help others when THEY needed it.

      A lot of my problem with all of this is my stupid pride which I had to swallow hard to even come here. Not a lot of marketers who have fallen on hard times (and believe me there are plenty of them) would be able to come to a public forum and admit their troubles. But thik of all the marketers who used to be fairly big names who you don't see anymore. Ever wonder why? Trust me, I know where a lot of the bodies are buried having at one time been in the inner circle. Because I am effectively out of the MMO niche, it doesn't really matter to me anymore if I come here and pour my guts out. I have nothing to sell to the people here anymore. I mean how the hell can I sell a "how to make money" product if i can't do it myself? Kind of hypocritical, don't you think?

      So this is my new thing and I want to make it work. I want to at least give it the best shot at working. To that end, I didn't think writing my own sales letter was a good idea. That's all. That was the whole point of all of this and thus asked for advice. I mean, I get it. Either I write the sales letter myself or I don't. There is no in between and ultimately I need to make that decision for myself. I just wanted some help in making it, that's all. So if I screwed up the delivery on achieving that goal, well, like I said...it's why I don't really want to write the damn sales letter myself.

      This thread should be living proof why that would be a very, very, very bad idea.
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  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    It's been 11 and a half years (yesterday) since I started my online business. From day one, I have always written my own sales letters along with all my other content which included articles, autoresponder series and whole ebooks.

    Of all these things, copywriting has been the one thing I feel is more talent driven than anything else and the hardest to master. And here's why.

    You can learn everything you want about headlines and sub heads and bullet points and constructing your "story" and AIDA and blah, blah, blah.

    But nobody can turn you into a gifted writer.

    Read the best sales letters through the ages. It's not the formula of the sales letter that made it great because any monkey can follow a list of instructions on how to technically construct a sales letter. I should know. I've been doing it by the "numbers" for 11 years. No, the great sales letters are great because they're written by great writers, people with real talent, something I have finally come to realize I am sorely lacking.

    Sure, my sales letters over the years converted okay. But I never had a knock 'em out of the park hit. Why? Because I'm an average writer at best. I don't have that spit and polish that the great ones have. And I certainly don't have their flare for painting pictures with their words.

    This is caused me to sit down and ask myself why. Is it because I don't have the innate talent to write that well or is it simply that I've been writing about something I have very little real passion for?

    Well, I immediately rejected the latter for this simple reason. The great copywriters can write for just about any niche. They certainly can't be passionate about all of them. So that can't be it.

    So it has to be talent, plain and simple.

    The question is, can talent be learned?

    No, I'm not gonna get into that because I just wrote an article on the subject as it applies to music. I'll just say that I don't think it can be. I think it can be developed to some degree but I truly believe that the ability to write like some of these people write is something you're born with. I have no scientific evidence to back that up. It's just what I believe.

    Why am I even going on about all this? Well, there is a reason.

    My old business in the MMO niche crashed and burned because of my traffic drying up after the Google slap on article directories. In short, my business model was flawed as far as traffic generation went and I paid the price.

    I am now starting over from scratch. I have several musical projects in the work. One of them I am 99% sure will be a big success as it has to do with the diet and exercise niche and targeting a segment with a product that has very little competition.

    Here is my problem.

    I need a solid sale letter so that I can attract affiliates. I do not trust my own skills to write it but I cannot afford any of you guys as I am broke. The money just isn't there. So I'm kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everything else is solid. The product WILL sell. There is no question about that. After I approach all the top diet and exercise sites and get enough affiliates, the sales will come pouring in, provided the sales letter does its job.

    Is it possible that I can write a decent sales letter so that, while conversions may not be maximized, I can still do "okay"? Yeah, it's possible. But I can't chance it. I'm pretty much treading water right now and need this to be a success. Now when I say success I'm not talking about it generating a six figure income for me. If I make 1 to 2 grand a month that's all I need to get me over the hump with my wife's income.

    No, I didn't come here looking for any handouts or favors. I know how long it takes to write a sales letter and your time is valuable. I guess what I'm looking for is some advice.

    Oddly, I'm more concerned with how the sales letter looks than how it reads as I am a terrible site designer. That's going to kill my letter before people even read it. As for the words, I think I'm good enough to convert at a measly half a percent. But will I be able to get affiliates with that low a conversion rate? If not, then I'm relying on my own traffic gen methods to make sales and that's the area I am weakest in.

    Anyway, that's about it. I really admire you guys that can write the way you do. I wish I had your talent. But I've never had more than an 8th grade vocabulary (most likely because I never liked to read) and I'm kind of paying the price today.

    Feeback of any kind is welcome.
    Maybe I'm way off the mark on this, but do you think you'd be approaching this different if you weren't in such a dire financial situation?

    If so, it might be worth it to ask yourself how you'd handle this if you weren't desperate. I'm not a cat that's sold on mindset being everything. I know actions matter. But you've said a few things in this post that make me wonder if your thinking process isn't your biggest obstacle. Desperation can lead to overanalyzing, procrastination and poor business decisions.

    Case in point, it sounds like you're trying to go from broke to a few thousand a month. That's an easy leap to make, but not when you have to build out your entire marketing infrastructure WITHOUT the $ to hire a copywriter. Why not grab a few affiliate products with sales pages that are ALREADY selling and get your front end process working? It's not a quick fix, but honestly dude, there isn't one from where you are.

    You can always build a list, develop a connection with them and have a solid launching pad for your product when it comes out (and some cashflow to at least hire a copywriting critique).

    The other option is to try and start EVERYTHING from scratch and hope you can keep your mind clear of worry and doubt while doing so.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post

      Maybe I'm way off the mark on this, but do you think you'd be approaching this different if you weren't in such a dire financial situation?

      If so, it might be worth it to ask yourself how you'd handle this if you weren't desperate. I'm not a cat that's sold on mindset being everything. I know actions matter. But you've said a few things in this post that make me wonder if your thinking process isn't your biggest obstacle. Desperation can lead to overanalyzing, procrastination and poor business decisions.

      Case in point, it sounds like you're trying to go from broke to a few thousand a month. That's an easy leap to make, but not when you have to build out your entire marketing infrastructure WITHOUT the $ to hire a copywriter. Why not grab a few affiliate products with sales pages that are ALREADY selling and get your front end process working? It's not a quick fix, but honestly dude, there isn't one from where you are.

      You can always build a list, develop a connection with them and have a solid launching pad for your product when it comes out (and some cashflow to at least hire a copywriting critique).

      The other option is to try and start EVERYTHING from scratch and hope you can keep your mind clear of worry and doubt while doing so.
      Thanks Seth. Without going into a big long spiel, I once had a successful business that went belly up. I dissolved my lists and took all my products off the market. My web server is clean with the exception of my music.

      Yes, I could try to put a few things back up and work on building my list again or run a WSO with some PLR that I created myself but I just don't want to take time away from what I'm ultimately trying to accomplish. As it is, this is taking way longer than I want it to. Working on other things would just frustrate me all the more. No, I have to give this 100% just like I have done with every single one of the 300 plus products I created before this in the MMO niche.

      That is why I am abandoning everything else.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Leatherman
    Kay you took the words right out of my mouth.

    Ken
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  • Profile picture of the author CopyMonster
    Here ya go. One and done:

    Manifestation Miracle | Live Your Dreams | Create Your Dream Future Today
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    Scary good...
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  • Profile picture of the author anpharmd09
    Hi Steven,

    Since you are in the music niche, how about writing some great content/articles and approaching authority blog owners in your niche?

    You could offer your services to write quality engaging content for their blogs, and use the money you earn from that to invest in sales copy for your product.

    Or another option, you could give away a great, unique piece of content you produced to some of these blog owners to create good will, and perhaps some of them would be willing to promote your product with a featured post on their blog when you release it.

    Then you would be getting some targeted traffic for free to test the conversions of your sales page.



    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


    Here is my problem.

    I need a solid sale letter so that I can attract affiliates. I do not trust my own skills to write it but I cannot afford any of you guys as I am broke. The money just isn't there. So I'm kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. Everything else is solid. The product WILL sell. There is no question about that. After I approach all the top diet and exercise sites and get enough affiliates, the sales will come pouring in, provided the sales letter does its job.

    Feeback of any kind is welcome.
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  • Profile picture of the author copyassassin
    this whole email thread points to an important key principle: if you can't convert paid traffic into profit, you don't have a business!

    had Steve invested that 16K/month into funnels he could convert using paid traffic, he wouldn't be here today.

    bottom line #1: the whole point of hiring a copywriter is to improve your conversions high enough to pay more for client acquisition than your competitor

    bottom line #2: free is not a business. If you rely on affiliates or SEO, you are a slave.

    bottom line #3: you gotta pay for that one. WSO coming soon
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    • Profile picture of the author Brad Callen
      Originally Posted by copyassassin View Post


      bottom line #1: the whole point of hiring a copywriter is to improve your conversions high enough to pay more for client acquisition than your competitor

      bottom line #2: free is not a business. If you rely on affiliates or SEO, you are a slave.

      bottom line #3: you gotta pay for that one. WSO coming soon
      I couldn't agree more... Show me a "professional" copywriter that can do that and they've got themselves a full-time position, and more copywriting jobs than they can ever handle. Unfortunately, I have never seen that become reality.

      Brad
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      • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
        Originally Posted by Brad Callen View Post

        I couldn't agree more... Show me a "professional" copywriter that can do that and they've got themselves a full-time position, and more copywriting jobs than they can ever handle. Unfortunately, I have never seen that become reality.

        Brad
        Brad, I don't doubt your experience--it is what it is--but I'm curious. It almost seems impossible you couldn't find one copywriter who was not able to improve conversions (enough to be useful as you said) on any of your products in some capacity over ten years.

        Is it that your products are highly unique or copywriters don't get them? Was every copywriter just full of baloney? Or something else. I'm genuinely curious to understand the back story. (This isn't a veiled pitch -- 97 percent of my clients are B2B.)
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        Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
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