57 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}
57 {{ upvoteCount | shortNum }}

Why We're Not Entering a Dark Age Of Copywriting

by Sajun Becker
43 replies
Lately there's been a fringe sentiment of doom and gloom about the state of the copywriting industry.

I've heard things like "Copywriting work is being outsourced to graphic designers", or "The Elance crowd is devaluing our work."

My favorite is "The industry seems to be shifting."

Your damn right it's shifting.

That's simply the way business works.

Part of your job as a freelance copywriter is to move with this shift.

You've got to recognize the possibility that your comfortable SEO-suited niche might collapse.

You've also got to recognize that such a collapse isn't the end of the world (or your career for that matter).

You've got to go with the money is and keep a dead eye on the industry patterns.

Sure, 3-D printing might be booming this year, but don't count on being the "Print King" in 2026.

On a certain level, you've got to adjust to this relative insecurity.

The other myth is the Scarcity Idea.

"High paying copywriting gigs are become few and far between."

This is bull.

In fact, we're in a deficit for quality copy; so much of the business world (particularly on the web) is screaming for high performing copy.

And they're getting sick of crappy outsourced work.

If you're confident and talented, you'll get more work than you know what to do with.

Those guys working for peanuts on content mills aren't your competition, neither am I for that matter.

That work is out there, and someone's going to get it.

Copywriting work is plentiful, and the need for quality work can never be outsourced or made obsolete.
#age #copywriting #dark #entering
  • Profile picture of the author Cam Connor
    Originally Posted by Sajun Becker View Post

    Lately there's been a fringe sentiment of doom and gloom about the state of the copywriting industry.
    That sentiment's actually been lurking above our heads for as long as I can remember, but yes, I agree... so long as there are successful business people, there're people who know the value of good Copy.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9423490].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    For as long as advertising has existed, there have been people in the "OMG THIS THING OR FIELD IS DYING" bandwagon.

    Still breathing. Most days. I think.
    Signature

    Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9423536].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sajun Becker
      Right down to sale-inscriptions in the Athens market Angie.

      The work isn't going anywhere until the next plague...imagine the market for that.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9423559].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    If you are worried about a "comfortable SEO-suited niche collapsing," your marketing needs a rethink. I find copywriting has very little to do with SEO. And content mills? Are you talking about content writing?
    Signature
    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
    - Jack Trout
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9423687].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sajun Becker
      Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

      If you are worried about a "comfortable SEO-suited niche collapsing," your marketing needs a rethink. I find copywriting has very little to do with SEO. And content mills? Are you talking about content writing?

      Agreed, a copywriter with this positioning is going to run into a brick wall.

      Yes, I was talking about the general state of slave-labor copy and content writing.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9423733].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
    Originally Posted by Sajun Becker View Post

    Lately there's been a fringe sentiment of doom and gloom about the state of the copywriting industry.

    I've heard things like "Copywriting work is being outsourced to graphic designers", or "The Elance crowd is devaluing our work."

    My favorite is "The industry seems to be shifting."

    Your damn right it's shifting.

    That's simply the way business works.

    Part of your job as a freelance copywriter is to move with this shift.

    You've got to recognize the possibility that your comfortable SEO-suited niche might collapse.

    You've also got to recognize that such a collapse isn't the end of the world (or your career for that matter).

    You've got to go with the money is and keep a dead eye on the industry patterns.

    Sure, 3-D printing might be booming this year, but don't count on being the "Print King" in 2026.

    On a certain level, you've got to adjust to this relative insecurity.

    The other myth is the Scarcity Idea.

    "High paying copywriting gigs are become few and far between."

    This is bull.

    In fact, we're in a deficit for quality copy; so much of the business world (particularly on the web) is screaming for high performing copy.

    And they're getting sick of crappy outsourced work.

    If you're confident and talented, you'll get more work than you know what to do with.

    Those guys working for peanuts on content mills aren't your competition, neither am I for that matter.

    That work is out there, and someone's going to get it.

    Copywriting work is plentiful, and the need for quality work can never be outsourced or made obsolete.

    I'm one of the doom and gloomers, but I certainly won't deny anyone's direct experience (which I presume you're speaking from). And of course, I'd rather you be right than me here!

    It would be helpful if you'd break it down a bit though.

    Let me play devil's advocate here...

    What's the industry shifting to? I see the high-end work being as exclusive as it ever was, and rates for low-end work plummeting, thanks to the bidding sites. The press release example I talked out in the other thread is apt, I think. That's the only shift I'm seeing.

    Need a copywriter? Google copywriter, find Odesk. Pay very little. That's what's happening.

    And if clients are sick of crappy, "outsourced" work, they're not acting like it. Not sure what you mean by "outsourced," but the bidding sites are doing fine. Elance is doing better by the year. I suspect that not all the work clients are getting there is crappy either (just cheap, thanks to the bidding).

    The bidding sites are getting lots of repeat business too. In fact, some reasonably sophisticated "agencies" are springing up, centered around the labor they get on the bidding sites. That's a bad portent.

    If you're confident and talented, you'll get work? Really? Is that all it takes? I'm skeptical. Again, I'd rather you be right than me, but that's not what I'm experiencing. (I won't speak about "talent," but I have plenty of staff experience as a marketing and publicity writer.) Maybe I'm chasing the wrong clients (b-to-b for me), but it ain't that simple at all. You better also have "image" too, and some of us simply don't have that.

    I much prefer the days when nobody knew what a copywriter was. Now copywriting is much like "magazine writing" -- a "glamorous" dream career with so much competition it's become too much of a buyer's market. Rates haven't risen much in magazine writing for decades exactly because everyone wants to do it.

    And now in copywriting, there's plenty of good-paying work at the high-end, but at the mid-range and low-end, things are sliding. Maybe it will self-correct.

    Anyway, how about some specifics to back up what you're saying? Break it down a bit for the kiddies? After all, your title is "Why We're Not Entering a Dark Age Of Copywriting"-- then all you say is basically "we're not entering a dark age of copywriting."

    I repeat -- I'd much rather you be right than me. Talk me down.

    Are you a full-time freelancer yourself?

    (And - oh yeah -- I'm talking about copywriting, not content writing. Though another bad trend is the term "copywriting" is slowly but surely starting to also mean content writing, thanks to the increasingly common usage... But that's another thread... )
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9423809].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

      I'm one of the doom and gloomers, but I certainly won't deny anyone's direct experience (which I presume you're speaking from). And of course, I'd rather you be right than me here!

      It would be helpful if you'd break it down a bit though.

      Let me play devil's advocate here...

      What's the industry shifting to? I see the high-end work being as exclusive as it ever was, and rates for low-end work plummeting, thanks to the bidding sites. The press release example I talked out in the other thread is apt, I think. That's the only shift I'm seeing.

      Need a copywriter? Google copywriter, find Odesk. Pay very little. That's what's happening.

      And if clients are sick of crappy, "outsourced" work, they're not acting like it. Not sure what you mean by "outsourced," but the bidding sites are doing fine. Elance is doing better by the year. I suspect that not all the work clients are getting there is crappy either (just cheap, thanks to the bidding).

      The bidding sites are getting lots of repeat business too. In fact, some reasonably sophisticated "agencies" are springing up, centered around the labor they get on the bidding sites. That's a bad portent.

      If you're confident and talented, you'll get work? Really? Is that all it takes? I'm skeptical. Again, I'd rather you be right than me, but that's not what I'm experiencing. (I won't speak about "talent," but I have plenty of staff experience as a marketing and publicity writer.) Maybe I'm chasing the wrong clients (b-to-b for me), but it ain't that simple at all. You better also have "image" too, and some of us simply don't have that.

      I much prefer the days when nobody knew what a copywriter was. Now copywriting is much like "magazine writing" -- a "glamorous" dream career with so much competition it's become too much of a buyer's market. Rates haven't risen much in magazine writing for decades exactly because everyone wants to do it.

      And now in copywriting, there's plenty of good-paying work at the high-end, but at the mid-range and low-end, things are sliding. Maybe it will self-correct.

      Anyway, how about some specifics to back up what you're saying? Break it down a bit for the kiddies? After all, your title is "Why We're Not Entering a Dark Age Of Copywriting"-- then all you say is basically "we're not entering a dark age of copywriting."

      I repeat -- I'd much rather you be right than me. Talk me down.

      Are you a full-time freelancer yourself?

      (And - oh yeah -- I'm talking about copywriting, not content writing. Though another bad trend is the term "copywriting" is slowly but surely starting to also mean content writing, thanks to the increasingly common usage... But that's another thread... )
      When you haven't experienced something someone else has, it's pretty easy to be skeptical. After all, it hasn't happened to you. They're lucky. They have something you don't - a pedigree, connections in the right places. They're outright lying.

      I used to have a mindset like that.

      I used to slave away at stupid hourly jobs (I once even held FOUR part time jobs at the same time - wouldn't recommend that to anyone), wondering when someone was going to notice I was awesome and pluck me out of obscurity. After all, I was doing everything my family told me was the "right" way to succeed. Work hard. It pays off.

      Except there are other ways to work hard. That's what they never tell you. You have to try other people's methods and figure out your own. You have to fail. You have to learn. And you have to move forward or stay still.

      I didn't want to stay still.

      I've seen what that does. My folks don't know how they're going to retire. I refused to let that be my future.

      And wouldn't you know it? My hard work started to pay off. All I had to do was get jealous, frustrated. Why do THOSE people over there have cushy salaries with health benefits and long lunch breaks. Why do THOSE guys over there make more money doing the same damn thing I'm doing?

      That's when I decided enough was enough. I went back to school to pursue a field I loved, and fell right back into the same trap. Keep your head down. Work hard. That pedigree with well-known companies is going to work SO well for your resume.

      Until I got laid off. And it was a company most people on this board would recognize. And I was living in a very expensive city that has very little patience for starving artists.

      I turned to copywriting in a pinch, just to survive. My pride never would let me beg on the streets.

      The funniest part is I didn't believe the money was there. I see it now, looking back. But I couldn't make myself believe people found value in what I did. I'm sure it showed in the pitch - some odor of desperation I wasn't even aware I was putting out. And the pay reflected that.

      I took some very good advice from some people right here in this forum. A very big risk. I stopped accepting nickel-and-dimers.

      I quit them cold turkey.

      I started fishing in deeper waters with my TINY boat. Terrified some Great White was going to come along and DESTROY me.

      I caught a big fish though. And I was TERRIFIED as I reeled it in. Wouldn't you know, though...the skills I've been filing away in random parts of my brain were actually percolating together. Weirdest ever thing to figure out you have the skills you're afraid you don't have, just when you need them most.

      I clawed my way out of homelessness with sheer stubbornness and knowing which advice to take.

      So to wrap up my already too-long story: you'll find what you're looking for. If it's a crashing industry with very slim pickings, you'll find it. If it's an abundant industry full of potentially lucrative partnerships, you'll find it.

      You just gotta change what you're looking for to find something different.
      Signature

      Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9423952].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author splitTest
        Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

        When you haven't experienced something someone else has, it's pretty easy to be skeptical. After all, it hasn't happened to you. They're lucky. They have something you don't - a pedigree, connections in the right places. They're outright lying.

        I used to have a mindset like that.

        I used to slave away at stupid hourly jobs (I once even held FOUR part time jobs at the same time - wouldn't recommend that to anyone), wondering when someone was going to notice I was awesome and pluck me out of obscurity. After all, I was doing everything my family told me was the "right" way to succeed. Work hard. It pays off.

        Except there are other ways to work hard. That's what they never tell you. You have to try other people's methods and figure out your own. You have to fail. You have to learn. And you have to move forward or stay still.

        I didn't want to stay still.

        I've seen what that does. My folks don't know how they're going to retire. I refused to let that be my future.

        And wouldn't you know it? My hard work started to pay off. All I had to do was get jealous, frustrated. Why do THOSE people over there have cushy salaries with health benefits and long lunch breaks. Why do THOSE guys over there make more money doing the same damn thing I'm doing?

        That's when I decided enough was enough. I went back to school to pursue a field I loved, and fell right back into the same trap. Keep your head down. Work hard. That pedigree with well-known companies is going to work SO well for your resume.

        Until I got laid off. And it was a company most people on this board would recognize. And I was living in a very expensive city that has very little patience for starving artists.

        I turned to copywriting in a pinch, just to survive. My pride never would let me beg on the streets.

        The funniest part is I didn't believe the money was there. I see it now, looking back. But I couldn't make myself believe people found value in what I did. I'm sure it showed in the pitch - some odor of desperation I wasn't even aware I was putting out. And the pay reflected that.

        I took some very good advice from some people right here in this forum. A very big risk. I stopped accepting nickel-and-dimers.

        I quit them cold turkey.

        I started fishing in deeper waters with my TINY boat. Terrified some Great White was going to come along and DESTROY me.

        I caught a big fish though. And I was TERRIFIED as I reeled it in. Wouldn't you know, though...the skills I've been filing away in random parts of my brain were actually percolating together. Weirdest ever thing to figure out you have the skills you're afraid you don't have, just when you need them most.

        I clawed my way out of homelessness with sheer stubbornness and knowing which advice to take.

        So to wrap up my already too-long story: you'll find what you're looking for. If it's a crashing industry with very slim pickings, you'll find it. If it's an abundant industry full of potentially lucrative partnerships, you'll find it.

        You just gotta change what you're looking for to find something different.
        Gotta give you credit, Ms. Angie. Nice post. But aren't you full-time on staff somewhere? Where does your freelance copywriting experience come in?

        Are you a moonlighter? If you're on the rah-rah bandwagon, why haven't you made the leap?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9426027].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
          Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

          Gotta give you credit, Ms. Angie. Nice post. But aren't you full-time on staff somewhere? Where does your freelance copywriting experience come in?

          Are you a moonlighter? If you're on the rah-rah bandwagon, why haven't you made the leap?
          I'm a full-time staff copywriter. You say that as if it's somehow inferior to freelancing, which I also do on the side. In fact, the day job has given me even more freedom as far as picking and choosing clients I WANT to work with.

          And here's something to think about: HOW do you think I got the job?

          That's right. By being a freelancer who's shown strong growth and numbers since she started in 2010.

          I'm self taught. I get results.

          And that showed when someone reached out to me on LinkedIn with a job opportunity that would have me starting the in-house copy team as part of the first in-house creative team for a well-known West Coast brand. A brand that's been in turmoil for some time and was looking to take a fresh infusion of capital to grow aggressively.

          Branding is a personal passion of mine, and this was and is a great opportunity. They were offering great pay and benefits, which is mighty tempting in a place as expensive as Silicon Valley. You know what the freakin' rent is out here, man?! Expensive. That's what it is.

          I didn't know it at the time, but I needed a break from constant prospecting and the often feast/famine roundabout that freelancers find themselves on. Partly because it's exhausting, and partly because I wanted to refocus my personal biz, and that's hard to do when you're operating under newco and oldco at the same time.

          I don't regret my decision at all. Primarily because I have even more numbers to back up my skills these days. Company in turmoil? Great opportunity to have a direct affect on the bottom line. I came in and really wanted direct mail. I REALLY wanted it. My postcards have pulled in hundreds of thousands.

          So besides having a well-known (beloved in some parts of the state) brand name as a notch in my belt, I liked the challenge. Like most freelancers, I spend someone else's money on ideas that I think will bring them more money, and I accomplish that every day. With health benefits.

          Eventually, I'll get out of this gig when I'm sick of it, and I'll most likely get back into full-time freelancing.

          And that's all she wrote. Literally

          EDITED TO ADD:

          And I'll pose you this question: isn't the mere fact that I have a well-paying salaried position as a copywriter in the most expensive area of the nation proof positive that things are not in fact trending toward a black cesspool of talentless hacks?
          Signature

          Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9426228].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Sajun Becker
      Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

      I'm one of the doom and gloomers, but I certainly won't deny anyone's direct experience (which I presume you're speaking from). And of course, I'd rather you be right than me here!

      It would be helpful if you'd break it down a bit though.

      Let me play devil's advocate here...

      What's the industry shifting to? I see the high-end work being as exclusive as it ever was, and rates for low-end work plummeting, thanks to the bidding sites. The press release example I talked out in the other thread is apt, I think. That's the only shift I'm seeing.

      Need a copywriter? Google copywriter, find Odesk. Pay very little. That's what's happening.

      And if clients are sick of crappy, "outsourced" work, they're not acting like it. Not sure what you mean by "outsourced," but the bidding sites are doing fine. Elance is doing better by the year. I suspect that not all the work clients are getting there is crappy either (just cheap, thanks to the bidding).

      The bidding sites are getting lots of repeat business too. In fact, some reasonably sophisticated "agencies" are springing up, centered around the labor they get on the bidding sites. That's a bad portent.

      If you're confident and talented, you'll get work? Really? Is that all it takes? I'm skeptical. Again, I'd rather you be right than me, but that's not what I'm experiencing. (I won't speak about "talent," but I have plenty of staff experience as a marketing and publicity writer.) Maybe I'm chasing the wrong clients (b-to-b for me), but it ain't that simple at all. You better also have "image" too, and some of us simply don't have that.

      I much prefer the days when nobody knew what a copywriter was. Now copywriting is much like "magazine writing" -- a "glamorous" dream career with so much competition it's become too much of a buyer's market. Rates haven't risen much in magazine writing for decades exactly because everyone wants to do it.

      And now in copywriting, there's plenty of good-paying work at the high-end, but at the mid-range and low-end, things are sliding. Maybe it will self-correct.

      Anyway, how about some specifics to back up what you're saying? Break it down a bit for the kiddies? After all, your title is "Why We're Not Entering a Dark Age Of Copywriting"-- then all you say is basically "we're not entering a dark age of copywriting."

      I repeat -- I'd much rather you be right than me. Talk me down.

      Are you a full-time freelancer yourself?

      (And - oh yeah -- I'm talking about copywriting, not content writing. Though another bad trend is the term "copywriting" is slowly but surely starting to also mean content writing, thanks to the increasingly common usage... But that's another thread... )


      Sorry I've been late to answer, I've been AWOL out of town.

      I see the copywriting industry becoming a somewhat more defined (and specialized) role bundled with Expert Marketing Service.

      A copywriter has never been JUST the guy or gal who writes the words that sell; a copywriter is a first and foremost a marketing strategist, and that's becoming even more pronounced.

      I actually think this is a wonderful opportunity for budding copywriters, because they can work more closely with their clients to formulate marketing plans and act as a consultant.

      You know I take my words back about talent and confidence being enough to make it as a copywriter, there's also the factor of time.

      I don't care if you get three clients in a week, stable success takes time to establish.

      There isn't a equal parts strategy, but if you've got the talent, confidence, and an appreciation for time, you'll get there.

      An air-tight marketing strategy never hurt either!

      Cheers.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9437079].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    There is plenty of work at the low end, middle, and high end. Some cats just want to stay at the low end. Maybe they have a great upsell strategy, I don't know. But there is a ton of work for them. You can work all day just from orders in the Warrior for Hire section, and some people do just that.

    In the middle market, there is a ton of work. There was a guy in another forum recently who was making $1,000 / letter and was busier than heck. He wondered if he should raise his rates, wondered if he was ready. Of course he was "ready." Something in him needed approval or permission. You don't need permission. But my point is he was very busy just working with middle market clients.

    At the high end, they are crying for good copywriters. Just go to one convention in your niche and collect cards. You'll have enough work for 6 months.

    My point is these are just markets. McDonald's sells a lot, so does TGIFridays and French Laundry, an uber-expensive restaurant north of San Francisco.

    I don't care what level you are working at--people are crying for good copywriters. Sometimes they don't know where to go or what to do. They often don't know what they need. I find this is consistent in B2B, B2C, tech, health, local offline and other niches both in the US and abroad.

    There's no Dark Age. It's the other way around. More entrepreneurs and businesses need copywriting and content writing help now than in the history of the world. Odesk and similar sites are fine if that is where you want to work. But all those sites combined are a mere sliver of the oceans of money sloshing around in the economy.

    I cold call a lot for business. There are many reasons not to do it, but I've done it for decades and it is second nature. Last week I was talking to businesses in Kansas. In one day I got three new clients, and the next week one guy referred me to his friends in his chamber of commerce.

    The business is out there, and you only need a handful of clients to make a very good living. There are a bunch of threads in this forum on how to get business. Heck, Rick just published a great report on how to get business, and other people have posted in-depth, step-by-step ways to gain clients.

    Pick a market level and try to dominate it. Move up to another market if you want--you don't need approval--or stay where you are. Whatever works for you. It's like Frank Kern says, the money is rushing by in a river. You just need to dip your hat in the current.

    Stay away from negative people who say the business is shifting or going downhill. Gee, the business world changes? No kidding.

    Get around winners and champions, hard-hearted Spartans ready to die to bring home a victory. Dig a little deeper, try a little harder, reach a little higher and recognize the opportunity mastering copywriting gives you--the chance to run your own show, build an empire and create financial indepenence that will help your children, their children and future generations for the next 1000 years.
    Signature
    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
    - Jack Trout
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9424588].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author splitTest
      Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

      There is plenty of work at the low end, middle, and high end. Some cats just want to stay at the low end. Maybe they have a great upsell strategy, I don't know. But there is a ton of work for them. You can work all day just from orders in the Warrior for Hire section, and some people do just that.

      In the middle market, there is a ton of work. There was a guy in another forum recently who was making $1,000 / letter and was busier than heck. He wondered if he should raise his rates, wondered if he was ready. Of course he was "ready." Something in him needed approval or permission. You don't need permission. But my point is he was very busy just working with middle market clients.

      At the high end, they are crying for good copywriters. Just go to one convention in your niche and collect cards. You'll have enough work for 6 months.

      My point is these are just markets. McDonald's sells a lot, so does TGIFridays and French Laundry, an uber-expensive restaurant north of San Francisco.

      I don't care what level you are working at--people are crying for good copywriters. Sometimes they don't know where to go or what to do. They often don't know what they need. I find this is consistent in B2B, B2C, tech, health, local offline and other niches both in the US and abroad.

      There's no Dark Age. It's the other way around. More entrepreneurs and businesses need copywriting and content writing help now than in the history of the world. Odesk and similar sites are fine if that is where you want to work. But all those sites combined are a mere sliver of the oceans of money sloshing around in the economy.

      I cold call a lot for business. There are many reasons not to do it, but I've done it for decades and it is second nature. Last week I was talking to businesses in Kansas. In one day I got three new clients, and the next week one guy referred me to his friends in his chamber of commerce.

      The business is out there, and you only need a handful of clients to make a very good living. There are a bunch of threads in this forum on how to get business. Heck, Rick just published a great report on how to get business, and other people have posted in-depth, step-by-step ways to gain clients.

      Pick a market level and try to dominate it. Move up to another market if you want--you don't need approval--or stay where you are. Whatever works for you. It's like Frank Kern says, the money is rushing by in a river. You just need to dip your hat in the current.

      Stay away from negative people who say the business is shifting or going downhill. Gee, the business world changes? No kidding.

      Get around winners and champions, hard-hearted Spartans ready to die to bring home a victory. Dig a little deeper, try a little harder, reach a little higher and recognize the opportunity mastering copywriting gives you--the chance to run your own show, build an empire and create financial indepenence that will help your children, their children and future generations for the next 1000 years.
      Well, that's a good, inspirational post, Joseph, complete with anecdotes from your own experience, an insightful analogy, and even empathy for those of us who struggle and doubt ("you don't need approval").

      With all that meat, what you say "rings true," unlike the bare-bones pie-in-the-sky declarations typically served up here (with a side order of condescension for anyone looking to "calibrate" by discussing the challenges too).

      And I see you're not selling anything either. Arigatou sensei.

      It would be really interesting to hear someone as informed and convincing as you assess the "downside" too. Why? All positive is an incomplete picture. Hearing the negatives makes the positives that much more clear.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9426002].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
        Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

        Well, that's a good, inspirational post, Joseph, complete with anecdotes from your own experience, an insightful analogy, and even empathy for those of us who struggle and doubt ("you don't need approval").

        With all that meat, what you say "rings true," unlike the bare-bones pie-in-the-sky declarations typically served up here (with a side order of condescension for anyone looking to "calibrate" by discussing the challenges too).

        And I see you're not selling anything either. Arigatou sensei.

        It would be really interesting to hear someone as informed and convincing as you assess the "downside" too. Why? All positive is an incomplete picture. Hearing the negatives makes the positives that much more clear.
        That's what I'm saying. There is no downside other than the usual freelancer challenges of managing clients and projects.

        In terms of market demand for copywriting, there is no downside. From what I see, the demand is infinite at all market levels.

        All over the world.

        What do all businesses, non-profits, and lemonade stands want? More customers! More sales! More profit!

        If you learn the skill of copywriting, you have Life's Golden Ticket. Because you can create money, sales and profit. Very, very, very, very few people can do that. They can make software, bake bread or create an ebook. They just don't know how to make it generate cold hard cash.

        The downside?

        The downside is you need to learn the craft.

        When I started I had John Carlton playing in my headphones with "How to Write a Good Advertisement" or "The Robert Collier Letter" open on the desk as I wrote copy every day for years. Every day. Not one day went by in four years that I wasn't studying and writing copy.

        I recorded "Scientific Advertising" to mp3 so I could listen to it over and over as I wrote copy for clients. If Jay Abraham said you should read it 7 times, I was going to listen to it 200 times.

        Why? Because I wanted to learn the craft. I could see what people were doing with their copy skills. Vin Montello, Chris Haddad, Kevin Rogers, Brian McLeod, Bruce Wedding, Mal, Marcia, Rick, Ray, Seth, Gordon, Colin, and many more.

        And not just online. I met offline copy rock stars you've never heard of. Guys and girls in real estate, retail, home improvement and other areas.

        They developed the skill.

        And now wield the power.

        Power so great many copy top guns get out of writing for others as soon as they can. They realize they can create products and use their copy skills to pull fat dollars into their boat like glistening Northern Trout in springtime on a Canadian lake.
        Signature
        Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
        - Jack Trout
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9426147].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Andy The Copywriter
          Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

          That's what I'm saying. There is no downside other than the usual freelancer challenges of managing clients and projects.

          In terms of market demand for copywriting, there is no downside. From what I see, the demand is infinite at all market levels.

          All over the world.

          What do all businesses, non-profits, and lemonade stands want? More customers! More sales! More profit!

          If you learn the skill of copywriting, you have Life's Golden Ticket. Because you can create money, sales and profit. Very, very, very, very few people can do that. They can make software, bake bread or create an ebook. They just don't know how to make it generate cold hard cash.

          The downside?

          The downside is you need to learn the craft.

          When I started I had John Carlton playing in my headphones with "How to Write a Good Advertisement" or "The Robert Collier Letter" open on the desk as I wrote copy every day for years. Every day. Not one day went by in four years that I wasn't studying and writing copy.

          I recorded "Scientific Advertising" to mp3 so I could listen to it over and over as I wrote copy for clients. If Jay Abraham said you should read it 7 times, I was going to listen to it 200 times.

          Why? Because I wanted to learn the craft. I could see what people were doing with their copy skills. Vin Montello, Chris Haddad, Kevin Rogers, Brian McLeod, Bruce Wedding, Mal, Marcia, Rick, Ray, Seth, Gordon, Colin, and many more.

          And not just online. I met offline copy rock stars you've never heard of. Guys and girls in real estate, retail, home improvement and other areas.

          They developed the skill.

          And now wield the power.

          Power so great many copy top guns get out of writing for others as soon as they can. They realize they can create products and use their copy skills to pull fat dollars into their boat like glistening Northern Trout in springtime on a Canadian lake.
          Wow. I wish I could give you 10 thanks for this post.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9434989].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    Preach it, brotha Joe.

    Ditch losers. Obtain winners (as friends, colleagues, and mentors).

    You'd be amazed how quickly that one step will change your life.
    Signature

    Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9424636].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author pewpewpewmonkeys
    For as long as advertising has existed, there have been people in the "OMG THIS THING OR FIELD IS DYING" bandwagon.
    Sounds like a group of people it would be easy to sell things to.
    Signature
    Some cause-oriented hackers recently hacked one of my websites. So I researched what they're about and then donated a large sum of money to the entity they hate the most.

    The next time they hack one of my websites I'm going to donate DOUBLE.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9424716].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author splitTest
      Originally Posted by pewpewpewmonkeys View Post

      Sounds like a group of people it would be easy to sell things to.
      Nope. The people who are easy to sell believe stuff like "Need $25,000? Write a few letters!"

      Realists and pessimists are more tight-fisted and cynical. Dreamers are easier.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9426012].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    Originally Posted by Sajun Becker View Post

    Lately there's been a fringe sentiment of doom and gloom about the state of the copywriting industry.

    I've heard things like "Copywriting work is being outsourced to graphic designers", or "The Elance crowd is devaluing our work."

    My favorite is "The industry seems to be shifting."

    Your damn right it's shifting.

    That's simply the way business works.

    Part of your job as a freelance copywriter is to move with this shift.

    You've got to recognize the possibility that your comfortable SEO-suited niche might collapse.

    You've also got to recognize that such a collapse isn't the end of the world (or your career for that matter).

    You've got to go with the money is and keep a dead eye on the industry patterns.

    Sure, 3-D printing might be booming this year, but don't count on being the "Print King" in 2026.

    On a certain level, you've got to adjust to this relative insecurity.

    The other myth is the Scarcity Idea.

    "High paying copywriting gigs are become few and far between."

    This is bull.

    In fact, we're in a deficit for quality copy; so much of the business world (particularly on the web) is screaming for high performing copy.

    And they're getting sick of crappy outsourced work.

    If you're confident and talented, you'll get more work than you know what to do with.

    Those guys working for peanuts on content mills aren't your competition, neither am I for that matter.

    That work is out there, and someone's going to get it.

    Copywriting work is plentiful, and the need for quality work can never be outsourced or made obsolete.
    Frankly, I see the bottom feeders, clients and writers alike, as a blessing. Makes it easier to differentiate, to demonstrate superiority and go on sarcastic rants. Besides, the more they scramble and sqwauk over crumbs that fall from the master's table, the less likely they are to try and beat the rest of us to the banquet hall.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9425076].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author BudaBrit
      Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post

      Frankly, I see the bottom feeders, clients and writers alike, as a blessing. Makes it easier to differentiate, to demonstrate superiority and go on sarcastic rants. Besides, the more they scramble and sqwauk over crumbs that fall from the master's table, the less likely they are to try and beat the rest of us to the banquet hall.
      I don't see it as a good thing, but not from a work perspective...

      All it does is fill up the 'net with crap. I remember back when I used to go to the library to use the internet: there were a few good sites and a lot of sites where every second word was a keyword.

      As Google got rid of it, this improved, and I feel a few years ago there was a good balance.

      Yet "SEO experts" have blurred the lines again and we have a situation where 95% of the stuff online is regurgitated crap.

      Just take a look at your Facebook newsfeed for confirmation.

      So finding the best products and services sometimes takes a bit longer and sometimes good products suffer because they have spent peanuts on the copywriter...
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9425128].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
        Originally Posted by BudaBrit View Post

        I don't see it as a good thing, but not from a work perspective...

        All it does is fill up the 'net with crap. I remember back when I used to go to the library to use the internet: there were a few good sites and a lot of sites where every second word was a keyword.

        As Google got rid of it, this improved, and I feel a few years ago there was a good balance.

        Yet "SEO experts" have blurred the lines again and we have a situation where 95% of the stuff online is regurgitated crap.

        Just take a look at your Facebook newsfeed for confirmation.

        So finding the best products and services sometimes takes a bit longer and sometimes good products suffer because they have spent peanuts on the copywriter...
        Well, from the perspective, yes, it's annoying.

        But that's not all due to poor writers.

        The market also has to adjust itself to the lowest common denominator of intelligence and sophistication.

        For anyone smarter than the average McDonald's gobblin', reality show addicted, simple-minded intellectual civilian, yes, it gets annoying sometimes. Especially when you're living in the land that runs on Dunkin'.
        Signature
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9425302].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
    Originally Posted by Sajun Becker View Post

    You've got to go with the money is and keep a dead eye on the industry patterns.
    Unless you pick evergreen niches like financial, health, dating...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9425297].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JamesDLayton
    "We are what we think about all day long." - Earl Nightingale
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9426013].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JamesDLayton
    As an aside Angie, I am teaching myself too with you guys, books, YouTube etc. Do you think there is any major difference between us and those that are understudies to well known masters?

    For instance have you seen a glass ceiling for pay with those that haven't sat with Kennedy for a year?

    James
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9426309].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Originally Posted by JamesDLayton View Post

      As an aside Angie, I am teaching myself too with you guys, books, YouTube etc. Do you think there is any major difference between us and those that are understudies to well known masters?

      For instance have you seen a glass ceiling for pay with those that haven't sat with Kennedy for a year?

      James
      The only ceiling is really one you built yourself. If you don't like it, you find a way to break through it. I'd love to sit with Kennedy and any of the greats and pick their brains.

      But I'm also focused on BEING one of the greats.
      Signature

      Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9426315].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JamesDLayton
    I just wanted to know if you had CLEARLY seen copywriters being bounced by marketers for lack of pedigree. If you don't know then that's cool.

    James
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9426340].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JamesDLayton
    My hunch is no since results count . But I had to ask. James
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9426345].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    I'm training a copywriter who didn't finish her college degree.

    If you've got the skills to pay the bills...

    You just have to know you've got 'em and how to sell 'em.
    Signature

    Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9426362].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
    Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

    And I'll pose you this question: isn't the mere fact that I have a well-paying salaried position as a copywriter in the most expensive area of the nation proof positive that things are not in fact trending toward a black cesspool of talentless hacks?
    I dunno. I'm inclined to answer "no" because staff work and freelancing are different worlds.

    The availability of staff positions is no reflection on what's happening in the freelance realm. Magazine journalists get hired for staff positions too, yet freelance magazine writing is a notoriously tenuous living.

    ... Plus, if freelance copywriting was as simple as honing your skills and dipping your hat into the rivers of cash, no one would have to turn to the cubicle farm for benefits and healthcare. And the "feast" would more than make up for the "famine."

    ...So your experience isn't one I'd turn to for a rosy prognosis for the freelance industry. I kinda like joe's outlook better: the field is what you make of it...

    ...Though I still say the bidding sites and the glamorization of copywriting are bad signs. No field with such a low bar to entry benefits from such an influx of cheap competition. Remember -- even the best copywriter can't guarantee results, cheap doesn't mean untalented, and most clients don't know the difference. That's a recipe for a race to the bottom in terms of rates, and an industry that can support fewer and fewer freelancers.

    The graphic design industry is in similar straits. Press release writers, web designers, article writers -- all are facing similar problems.

    Copywriting, with its emphasis on sales and ROI, may be cushioned a bit. ...But on the downside, it's also more "glamorous" and sold far and wide as a dream career. Even all the "hacks" entering the field are bad for the field, because a "burned" client is going to be more hesitant to hire a freelancer in the future, or pay the high rates he may have paid the bad guy.

    How many of the people in this thread are full-time freelancers anyway? (...Just for the sake of insight.)

    I'm guessing most here are moonlighters.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9434764].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
      Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

      I dunno. I'm inclined to answer "no" because staff work and freelancing are different worlds.

      The availability of staff positions is no reflection on what's happening in the freelance realm. Magazine journalists get hired for staff positions too, yet freelance magazine writing is a notoriously tenuous living.

      ... Plus, if freelance copywriting was as simple as honing your skills and dipping your hat into the rivers of cash, no one would have to turn to the cubicle farm for benefits and healthcare. And the "feast" would more than make up for the "famine."

      ...So your experience isn't one I'd turn to for a rosy prognosis for the freelance industry. I kinda like joe's outlook better: the field is what you make of it...

      ...Though I still say the bidding sites and the glamorization of copywriting are bad signs. No field with such a low bar to entry benefits from such an influx of cheap competition. Remember -- even the best copywriter can't guarantee results, cheap doesn't mean untalented, and most clients don't know the difference. That's a recipe for a race to the bottom in terms of rates, and an industry that can support fewer and fewer freelancers.

      The graphic design industry is in similar straits. Press release writers, web designers, article writers -- all are facing similar problems.

      Copywriting, with its emphasis on sales and ROI, may be cushioned a bit. ...But on the downside, it's also more "glamorous" and sold far and wide as a dream career. Even all the "hacks" entering the field are bad for the field, because a "burned" client is going to be more hesitant to hire a freelancer in the future, or pay the high rates he may have paid the bad guy.

      How many of the people in this thread are full-time freelancers anyway? (...Just for the sake of insight.)

      I'm guessing most here are moonlighters.
      split,

      The thing is, there's such a difference between Elance copy and a professional Copywriter.

      You really have to dig through the crap over there to find someone good.

      But are people who value copy going to do that? Hell no... they're going to go to their marketing friends and ask for recommendations on a copywriter who can take their product further.

      For this reason, you cannot compare it to graphic design. It just ranks too low on a business priority list (at least for those who are set on making money).

      Why?

      Because it's like the paint on the walls in your house... nice to look at, but for the main part - pointless. (Yeah, yeah... you could argue it adds value to the house, but for the sake of argument...)

      Whereas our craft has a single goal of making a ton of money.

      People who value copy know that it's not a sales generator... but a sales multiplier... and they're in this game to make as much money as possible.

      A proven copywriter has nothing to fear from bidding sites. A proven copywriter knows his/her worth. A proven copywriter is going to make sure he/she charges you accordingly.

      Personally, I think you're being far too pessimistic about the state of things. But I can relate... I think the American markets are in for a huge collapse in the near future due to the de-dollarisation of the world... whether it'll happen or not, I view it as a challenge to get as good at writing copy as I can before (if) the world's biggest copywriting market explodes.

      Chris

      P.S. Full-time here. As I know Seth, Joe and I'm 99% sure John is. (Though I'm sure these guys see themselves as far more than just copywriters.)

      I'm also sure that Angie could go freelance if she so wished.

      To the others - sorry, I don't know ya too well.
      Signature

      Wealthcopywriter.com :)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9434884].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
        Originally Posted by Chriswrighto View Post

        P.S. Full-time here. As I know Seth, Joe and I'm 99% sure John is. (Though I'm sure these guys see themselves as far more than just copywriters.)
        Not that it matters but, yes.

        Funny thing is...

        I'm a freelancer but I am very close to entering an exclusive retainer agreement.

        Still work from home but no longer freelance.

        There's a secret that many don't know about the big publishing companies...

        While they use freelancers to help out when needed, the 'plum' projects - the ones that can pull 6 figure royalties - are reserved for in-house or retainer guys.

        The publishers don't want to give the obvious home-runs to somebody not dedicated to them.

        It's a competitive business - even among divisions of the same company.

        Being employed (or exclusive) can be a massive learning and earning opportunity.

        But - if you're an experienced copywriter - I wouldn't recommend it unless there are royalties involved. Too much work for straight fees.

        Copywriting is most definitely not entering a dark age...you just have to play at a higher level.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9435717].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    I'm pretty sure I said exactly what I meant. The fact that salaried positions exist in our field is proof. Bright, shiny, dollar-laden proof that there's a massive segment of people out there who value copywriting. In fact, my office has contracted tons of overflow work to freelancer copywriters. So have plenty of other marketing departments that have full time copy staffers.

    You might want to watch that tendency to look down your nose. Sell outs like me give a lot of freelancers some damn good contracts.

    So to reiterate: you're going to find what you're looking for. Apparently, you're looking for the downside where you're competing with hacks. I'll keep enjoying my upside. Tell me how that works out for ya, eh?
    Signature

    Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9434921].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jakeking
    Guess I missed the memo about copywriting entering a dark age. Never felt that it did. Great reads in this thread though.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9435073].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JamesDLayton
    Look at the highest paid people in the world. They get paid for who they are not what they do.
    Gates? Plenty of software hacks out there.
    Dennis? Lots of publishers too.

    What you do is NEVER going to be as important as who you are to your clients. Dan Kennedy has said this until he's blue in the face. Is a Kennedy letter better than a Carlton letter? Nobody is 100% perfect at writing copy, it's a science with billions of variables. But being YOU and what you bring to the table is the reason Kennedy pulls 18k a day. They want HIS skew on the industry. Same reason they pay Vaynerchuck 5x more to promote their brand than the average PR agency.

    People talk about talent like it's a holy grail. I come from the film industry, talent is about 10% of your worth. Hard work, putting in the hours and being unique are far more important. Jim Carrey is funny, he isn't the funniest man on the planet so why does he get 30 million per movie? Cus it's Jim Carrey......

    Be unique.



    P.S That's the reason I pulled away from the bidding sites after only 3 weeks of writing copy. I saw the cancer in that, pooling myself with others. I am not a great copywriter... some may say I'm terrible. But I work full time at it after studying for a little over a month. AND..... I ain't getting paid peanuts for it.

    Think of it this way. Gas station candy is 2-3x the price of store candy for the most part right? Because there is NO other choice. You are in the middle of shitsville with no option to buy there. You pool yourself and you're store candy. I'm gas station candy. And if you want to walk away from my deal? Okay go find someone else. They might be better.... they won't be me. And you miss the unique approach that attracted you to call me in the first place.

    James
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9435286].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
      Originally Posted by JamesDLayton View Post

      Look at the highest paid people in the world. They get paid for who they are not what they do.
      Not really.

      It is what they did that made them who they are.

      Dan
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9435679].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author JamesDLayton
        Originally Posted by jimbo13 View Post

        Not really.

        It is what they did that made them who they are.

        Dan

        What did Kim Kardashian "do"?

        James
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9435750].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
          Never heard of her so I don't know.

          Point is almost everyone who is highly paid has done something.

          Lottery winners etc are a tiny %

          It is why you don't earn much money right now.

          But if you work, study and make a name for yourself in whatever field you wish to then you will get paid more and more.

          To the point people may even pay you a lot just to hear what you say, not to actually do the thing that got you to that point.

          I think you know this so...

          How is Solihull? I have never been to Birmingham apart from traffic jams on the M42 I live not far from Reading in Berkshire.

          Dan

          PS: Just saw your following post so yes that helps. By the way do you know the story of why Branson is famous? In the 1960's or early 1970's some American used to jump out of a plane in one of the main streets in New York wearing red pyjamas or something like that. Branson's friend decided that was great and that Branson the person should be marketed. Branson has never been the marketer for Virgin. It was Whitehorn (think that was his name) thinking of the stunts to get Richard known.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9435787].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JamesDLayton
    It might sound stupid but think about it. Steven Spielberg makes a movie. It gross 200 mil. He gets paid 20. James Gunn directs a movie it grosses 200 mill, he gets paid 10.

    What did the beard "do"? Other than BE the beard.

    Dan Kennedy is right all the way. Your pay check is as much to do with WHO you are as it is WHAT you do and the results you get. Richard Branson...billionaire.... partly made with his publicity stunts and flying around in a balloon. Take a similar person, same business ventures only makes half the money.

    I'm not saying you can be awful at your job. I'm saying standing out will put you that extra 25% above the others of equal ability.

    That's all.

    James
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9435763].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JamesDLayton
    Solihull is better than Birmingham for sure. Although I'm moving to Washington next year. Marrying an American girl. I am earning pretty good though. I've been a copywriter 4 weeks and a best selling author 2 years and made more in copy than authoring.

    Did you know that 50 Shades Of Grey was Twilight fanfiction WAY before the names were changed and it was released as a stand alone series?

    Having said that it's terrible. I write better erotica and I know a dozen or so authors who do.

    I'm not denying the Branson thing, I agree he has a lot of help. What I'm saying is that out of TWO equally talented businessmen the one who is KNOWN for who he is rather than what he does will be more successful.

    These are Kennedy's words not mine, I happen to agree.

    James
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9435846].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
      Originally Posted by JamesDLayton View Post

      Solihull is better than Birmingham for sure. Although I'm moving to Washington next year. Marrying an American girl.

      Congratultions and Good Luck then.

      What I'm saying is that out of TWO equally talented businessmen the one who is KNOWN for who he is rather than what he does will be more successful.

      These are Kennedy's words not mine, I happen to agree.

      This is little different from what you wrote before.

      James
      Threads going off topic.

      Dan
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9435885].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author BudaBrit
      Originally Posted by JamesDLayton View Post

      Solihull is better than Birmingham for sure. Although I'm moving to Washington next year. Marrying an American girl. I am earning pretty good though. I've been a copywriter 4 weeks and a best selling author 2 years and made more in copy than authoring.

      Did you know that 50 Shades Of Grey was Twilight fanfiction WAY before the names were changed and it was released as a stand alone series?

      Having said that it's terrible. I write better erotica and I know a dozen or so authors who do.

      I'm not denying the Branson thing, I agree he has a lot of help. What I'm saying is that out of TWO equally talented businessmen the one who is KNOWN for who he is rather than what he does will be more successful.

      These are Kennedy's words not mine, I happen to agree.

      James
      On the fiction marketing...it's all about the product placement. Dan Brown is no different from a 100 other authors, but his books were placed prominently at train stations, airports and petrol stations.

      The real magic was in the adverts, though. It was presented as very accessible and was advertised along all the routes towards these transport hubs.

      If you got on the Gatwick Express, there were Da Vinci Code adverts all over the place, get on the Picadilli line and ditto.

      Yet they also put the adverts in a lot of magazines that were not aimed at regular book readers.

      My only problem is...why don't they do this for more authors, for more books...


      On the brand building: personal branding is incredibly important, and as James says, can add those extra few % to the business. As Clive Woodward always said: it's all about those few 1% gains.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9435983].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JamesDLayton
    Off topic but... I had a guy contact me this week with an Egyptian based historic novel and he asked me how he could sell more copies. Or sell ANY for that matter. I gave him ideas... BUT the one I thought would suit him best?

    Contact the cruise/package holiday companies, the ones that take the middle classes to Egypt and show them a mummys ballsack or whatever.

    The middle class and those that are retired are big readers and YES have moved to Kindle for the most part. I told him to offer his book to the travel companies as a free Kindle download.They get a cute little freebie to dangle in front of their soon to be Egyptian tourists. He gets 100's of downloads and reviews (they could put the mandatory review in as part of the deal).

    These reviews in turn smack the Kindle charts algorithm and the book creeps to the top. More people see it. More people buy it.

    Highly targeted readers.... going on an adventure and a FREE book on the same subject to read while they travel. Of course he would get snot loads of reviews and feedback.

    He didn't want to give it away for free.... not even for a month or so.

    So I guess he will struggle along on his own. Authors are by far the reason most books go tits up. I NEVER EVER fell in love with my books.

    James
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9436028].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author BudaBrit
      Originally Posted by JamesDLayton View Post

      Off topic but... I had a guy contact me this week with an Egyptian based historic novel and he asked me how he could sell more copies. Or sell ANY for that matter. I gave him ideas... BUT the one I thought would suit him best?

      Contact the cruise/package holiday companies, the ones that take the middle classes to Egypt and show them a mummys ballsack or whatever.

      The middle class and those that are retired are big readers and YES have moved to Kindle for the most part. I told him to offer his book to the travel companies as a free Kindle download.They get a cute little freebie to dangle in front of their soon to be Egyptian tourists. He gets 100's of downloads and reviews (they could put the mandatory review in as part of the deal).

      These reviews in turn smack the Kindle charts algorithm and the book creeps to the top. More people see it. More people buy it.

      Highly targeted readers.... going on an adventure and a FREE book on the same subject to read while they travel. Of course he would get snot loads of reviews and feedback.

      He didn't want to give it away for free.... not even for a month or so.

      So I guess he will struggle along on his own. Authors are by far the reason most books go tits up. I NEVER EVER fell in love with my books.

      James
      Lol. I wrote some children's short stories for an Egyptian client previously. At the start there weren't many criteria. After I gave him my outline, some restrictive criteria appeared about sex, violence, and lots more. So I rewrote the outline, and then found out the whole concept wasn't good as it involved the suggestion of violence...in a Sci Fi teenage fiction.

      No sex, no violence, marketed to teenagers...yeah, that's going to work...
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9436043].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JamesDLayton
    I'd of rewritten 120 Days Of Sodom with One Direction as the lead characters and handed it in. Maybe the shock factor alone would of made him/her reconsider.
    Never underestimate the SHOCK factor
    James
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9436069].message }}

Trending Topics