How many licks does it take?

17 replies
So far, I've gotten work mainly through past coworker/colleague contacts (and a little from CL).

...But if I'm going to avoid slinking back to cubicle hell, I'm gonna have to land some bigger fish toute d'suite.

Now -- I read that some of you guys target big fish with cold calls...

Personally, I just can't picture how a stranger can drum up business consistently through cold calls. After all, this is a relationships-based business, and everything I've read about relationships-based marketing tells me it takes a few "touches" -- contacts via sales letter or other written materials -- before a prospect is warm enough that he might be willing to take you on.

...So my question is for the experienced, working copywriters here: Are you actually winning clients based on a single cold call? How does that work? Don't they at least visit your website first?

And for those of us who operate in the real world: how many "touches" are you making before it's time to make that first sales call? (...Or are your sales letters pulling inquiries for you instead?)

I'm thinking a couple of sales letters -- then call. I'm going after clients who already do direct marketing (not mom & pop shops, not IM), but I'd be interested in hearing about real-world experience whatever the market...

As I write this, I'm thinking this is probably a better question for a LinkedIn copywriting board than this one, but what the hey... any insights?
#licks
  • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
    I don't cold call... never have.

    Nor do I teach my students to cold call... it's a miserable way to get work and a huge waste of time.

    There are numerous other ways to get quality clients.

    If you're going to fish (prospect) for clients, go fishing where they swim.

    Alex
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    • Profile picture of the author splitTest
      Bizzump...

      Surely some of youse use direct mail to get clients.. ?

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      • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
        I would't think too many copywriters cold call.

        I remember listening to a Doberman Dan call with Ben Settle and Caleb Osborne...

        Caleb said, he put together a package promoting himself and snail-mailed it to a list of potential clients and then called back in a few days. I think this had a huge success rate for him.

        The package was heavily researched and demonstrated his understanding of their business.

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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    I've never cold called so I can't give you any advice in that area.
    One rule of thumb I go by: If the prospect approaches you then
    you have a much better chance of getting what you are asking
    for than the other way around. That's why I prefer "attractive"
    marketing. Show your expertise and allow the clients to find
    you.

    I'm sure there are copywriters who have made good business
    with "seeking" marketing, but it's just not my preference. But
    when you are just starting out sometimes you have to do whatever
    pays the bills.

    -Ray Edwards
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  • Like the others - I have never cold called.

    But if I had to I would.

    Because it's fast and free (well almost with most telephone companies).

    And all it would take is a ten second "pitch."

    Something like this -

    "Hi I write very successful Ads that bring in a great response and generate lots of profits - would this be something that I could help you with?"

    Answer - No

    Me - Thats perfectly OK thanks for your time - Click.


    Answer - Yes

    Me - I'm glad you said that - now we really can bring you in more money - lets arrange an appointment blah blah….


    I would guess that 100 or so targeted calls should bring in 3-5 hot appointments.

    Estimated time to do this - I day (might even be possible in a morning or an afternoon).


    Steve


    P.S. The secret to this is never, ever fret about the rejections. If they don't want you - you don't want them. You've both saved a lot of time and energy and there are no hard feelings.

    You are cherry picking dialling ONLY for the good clients.

    Doesn't matter one dot if you are nervous, hate calling, can't get through to the decision makers and all the rest of it.

    You just keep dialling because all the laws of advanced physics and mathematics kick in - bringing you closer and closer to your ideal clients until suddenly there they are.

    I imagine they are so glad you called them.
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  • Profile picture of the author DougHughes
    Yes, this is a relationship business in the sense that all business is relationship business to some degree but it's still business. The relationship will grow once you prove yourself a reliable resource.

    What I have found is that you are mostly the one thinking about you. The people you contact don't know you. What they are thinking about are deadlines, projects, needs.

    There are many reasons which have already been widely covered in this forum why marketing managers/directors, creative directors, etc... want and need reliable freelance copywriters but in short it's because they have work to do and all too often not enough qualified, available people to get it done.

    And...while it may seem these people are being bombarded with freelancers pitching them day in and day out I haven't found this to be the case. I find mostly that they are regular working people in an office trying to get things done; and more often than not if you have a valuable service to offer they will entertain a phone call.

    The best results I have had from calling usually went something like this.

    First, I identify clients or agencies working within my areas of specialization. I go to their sites and look at the work they produce or sign up of their mailing lists, or buy a product from them and get on their list. I thoroughly familiarize myself with their offerings.

    Next, I look at how closely the work I've done and my samples fit with the prospects I am going after. If the work you are doing or have done looks like the work they are doing then you may be a good fit.

    Looking through their sites and then searching for employee names on Linkedin I try and find some contact info. If you can get the structure of their emails from the site and then find some names on Linkedin such as ("Joe.Blow@Company.com") and send them a short introductory email.

    I wait a day or so and if I don't get a reply I call and ask for them. "Hi, I am So-And-So, I sent you an email the other day. I was looking at some of your promotions/offers/products, etc...I am a freelance copywriter who's done a lot of work in (your niche) and I was wondering if you ever hire freelancers..." Or something along those lines.

    Yes:"Great! I'd like to send you some samples (a link to my samples). Is that alright?" Continue discussion, etc...

    No: "I see, would you mind if I sent you some information in case the need ever arises or follow up with you in a month or so? or Do you happen to know of anyone?" Something along those lines.

    Give them a little time to look over your samples if they don't do it on the phone then send a followup email or phone call and ask if you can schedule a time to meet with them in person. If things go well they'll probably send some work your way.

    I have also done variations of this using direct mail & phone calls but the approach above worked best for me.

    A few times I direct mailed (sales letters) to leads I compiled through data sources InfoUSA and ReferenceUSA targeting certain businesses and followed up with phone calls to 5000 names each. To my surprise (though thinking about it now seems more obvious) did not get a good response and resulted in little worthwhile business.

    Obviously the direct mail campaigns using compiled data were less targeted and less personal. I found that even though I mailed in a plain #10 envelope, many of the contacts I called did not remember getting the letters. Additionally, I found that many of the businesses (supposedly verified) were miscategorized and were well outside of my target businesses despite having gone through the lists and reviewed each of the descriptions and categories.

    Another problem with those campaigns was that because the targeting was off due to incorrect list data, the messaging was also off. I was writing to specific targets but understood after several phone calls the campaign would have been more responsive with less targeted messaging (again, because the targeting was off).

    Still, however, I did find the phone followups overwhelmingly positive even when prospects were not interested in my services.

    Here are a couple more options you might consider. If you live near a major metro you might consider specialty recruiting agencies. These people make money by getting you work and if you are good, versatile, and reliable they can throw a lot of work your way if you are comfortable working in the $40-$50/hour range.

    Some is onsite freelance, some is offsite freelance. Just depends on what they have. Some last a few weeks and other projects last six months or more.

    These opportunities are a great way to meet and enter into long term direct relationships with larger corporate clients as a freelancer.

    Some of these agencies are: Creative Circle, The Creative Group, Syndicate Blue, Arrowmac.

    Another way to get similar clients and build relationships is through pro-bono work through companies like TapRoot and VolunteerMatch.

    Both of these routes will put you in contact with corporate clients, decision makers, and build your portfolio and experience. Better still they will get you away from smaller clients and help grow your business in the right direction.

    I've said this before. You don't need a lot of clients. You need the right clients who can funnel you lots of work and are comfortable paying your fees.
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    • Profile picture of the author splitTest
      Originally Posted by DougHughes View Post

      Yes, this is a relationship business in the sense that all business is relationship business to some degree but it's still business. The relationship will grow once you prove yourself a reliable resource.

      What I have found is that you are mostly the one thinking about you. The people you contact don't know you. What they are thinking about are deadlines, projects, needs.

      There are many reasons which have already been widely covered in this forum why marketing managers/directors, creative directors, etc... want and need reliable freelance copywriters but in short it's because they have work to do and all too often not enough qualified, available people to get it done.

      And...while it may seem these people are being bombarded with freelancers pitching them day in and day out I haven't found this to be the case. I find mostly that they are regular working people in an office trying to get things done; and more often than not if you have a valuable service to offer they will entertain a phone call.

      The best results I have had from calling usually went something like this.

      First, I identify clients or agencies working within my areas of specialization. I go to their sites and look at the work they produce or sign up of their mailing lists, or buy a product from them and get on their list. I thoroughly familiarize myself with their offerings.

      Next, I look at how closely the work I've done and my samples fit with the prospects I am going after. If the work you are doing or have done looks like the work they are doing then you may be a good fit.

      Looking through their sites and then searching for employee names on Linkedin I try and find some contact info. If you can get the structure of their emails from the site and then find some names on Linkedin such as ("Joe.Blow@Company.com") and send them a short introductory email.

      I wait a day or so and if I don't get a reply I call and ask for them. "Hi, I am So-And-So, I sent you an email the other day. I was looking at some of your promotions/offers/products, etc...I am a freelance copywriter who's done a lot of work in (your niche) and I was wondering if you ever hire freelancers..." Or something along those lines.

      Yes:"Great! I'd like to send you some samples (a link to my samples). Is that alright?" Continue discussion, etc...

      No: "I see, would you mind if I sent you some information in case the need ever arises or follow up with you in a month or so? or Do you happen to know of anyone?" Something along those lines.

      Give them a little time to look over your samples if they don't do it on the phone then send a followup email or phone call and ask if you can schedule a time to meet with them in person. If things go well they'll probably send some work your way.

      I have also done variations of this using direct mail & phone calls but the approach above worked best for me.

      A few times I direct mailed (sales letters) to leads I compiled through data sources InfoUSA and ReferenceUSA targeting certain businesses and followed up with phone calls to 5000 names each. To my surprise (though thinking about it now seems more obvious) did not get a good response and resulted in little worthwhile business.

      Obviously the direct mail campaigns using compiled data were less targeted and less personal. I found that even though I mailed in a plain #10 envelope, many of the contacts I called did not remember getting the letters. Additionally, I found that many of the businesses (supposedly verified) were miscategorized and were well outside of my target businesses despite having gone through the lists and reviewed each of the descriptions and categories.

      Another problem with those campaigns was that because the targeting was off due to incorrect list data, the messaging was also off. I was writing to specific targets but understood after several phone calls the campaign would have been more responsive with less targeted messaging (again, because the targeting was off).

      Still, however, I did find the phone followups overwhelmingly positive even when prospects were not interested in my services.

      Here are a couple more options you might consider. If you live near a major metro you might consider specialty recruiting agencies. These people make money by getting you work and if you are good, versatile, and reliable they can throw a lot of work your way if you are comfortable working in the $40-$50/hour range.

      Some is onsite freelance, some is offsite freelance. Just depends on what they have. Some last a few weeks and other projects last six months or more.

      These opportunities are a great way to meet and enter into long term direct relationships with larger corporate clients as a freelancer.

      Some of these agencies are: Creative Circle, The Creative Group, Syndicate Blue, Arrowmac.

      Another way to get similar clients and build relationships is through pro-bono work through companies like TapRoot and VolunteerMatch.

      Both of these routes will put you in contact with corporate clients, decision makers, and build your portfolio and experience. Better still they will get you away from smaller clients and help grow your business in the right direction.

      I've said this before. You don't need a lot of clients. You need the right clients who can funnel you lots of work and are comfortable paying your fees.
      This is great stuff, Doug. Thanks for such a detailed response!
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  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

    So far, I've gotten work mainly through past coworker/colleague contacts (and a little from CL).

    ...But if I'm going to avoid slinking back to cubicle hell, I'm gonna have to land some bigger fish toute d'suite.

    Now -- I read that some of you guys target big fish with cold calls...

    Personally, I just can't picture how a stranger can drum up business consistently through cold calls. After all, this is a relationships-based business, and everything I've read about relationships-based marketing tells me it takes a few "touches" -- contacts via sales letter or other written materials -- before a prospect is warm enough that he might be willing to take you on.

    ...So my question is for the experienced, working copywriters here: Are you actually winning clients based on a single cold call? How does that work? Don't they at least visit your website first?

    And for those of us who operate in the real world: how many "touches" are you making before it's time to make that first sales call? (...Or are your sales letters pulling inquiries for you instead?)

    I'm thinking a couple of sales letters -- then call. I'm going after clients who already do direct marketing (not mom & pop shops, not IM), but I'd be interested in hearing about real-world experience whatever the market...

    As I write this, I'm thinking this is probably a better question for a LinkedIn copywriting board than this one, but what the hey... any insights?
    I might be the only person you'll hear this from, but cold calling can be a good way to start out as a freelance writer.

    I know, I know, I just committed a blasphemy worth of the fiery lake of burning sulfur. I can already hear the trees snapping like twigs as the T-Rex copywriters approach this thread ready to devour me whole.

    But I gotta say, I did it (he confesses)...and it worked for me. Of course, I never went in without an angle, but that's just smart salesmanship.

    Then again, I had years of in-the-trenches selling experience, most of it done over the phone, to people I'd never met. I'd sold five and six figure coaching programs to some of the top earners in the country. I'd sold hundreds of thousands of dollars in advertising to CEOs of multi-million dollar corporations (he said, humbly).

    90% of those deals ^ started out as cold calls. Sure, cold calling makes most people sound weak and desperate. But many times, that's because they lack the self-confidence and communication skills to command respect from the first second. Hell, I placed a cold call to the CEO of Lockheed Martin one time to sell him on advertising in the first publication for the FA-22 raptor. Got shot down in flames, but I took a shot. Everyone thought I was crazy, as if there's some rule against it.

    If there are any rules, the world belongs to those who can bend them to their will.

    Again, it all depends on the impression you create during the conversation.

    Case in point...

    (I'm sure I'll catch some spankings for this too, but this forum hasn't seen a good cage match in a while, so what the hell...),

    Just check out "Straight Line Persuasion," or look at what Jordon Belfort and his crew did with cold-calling. Sure, they were up to no good. I get that. But people are often persuaded to do dumb things using the same principles you'd use to persuade them to do smart things. You either know how to do it (and are comfortable doing it), or you're not. Again, it's all about confidence and communication skills.

    Hell, I saw dozens of marble-mouthed, social hunchbacks become top closers using the Straight Line techniques. They work. It's interesting though, in my training courses on how to find clients, I have two videos, one phone prospecting and one on direct mail, which consistently have the lowest views and user retention. Meanwhile, people eat up the stuff on email marketing and finding work on bidding sites. I've done all of the above, the real money is in combining direct mail, email and followup calling.

    I'm thoroughly convinced that 90% of the copywriters who are struggling to make $20 to $50k a year could easily break the $100 mark (even in 2014, if they started right now), simply by adding direct mail and phone prospecting to their marketing strategies.

    Why won't more of them do it?

    My theory, people find ways to cleverly rationalize what they're most uncomfortable doing. It takes big hairy ones to get on the phone with someone you've never met and even introduce yourself. But, at least from my experience, the rewards are worth it.

    Again, popular opinion says I should be burned at the stake for this, but one should consider what Earl Nightengale said about following the crowd...or Dan Kennedy..."Sheep don't ride in limousines." In fact, I haven't made a cold call in a while...but my dial-finger is itching....

    Guess I've stirred up enough trouble for now.

    Bracing myself for the onslaught of debates.

    Grab your popcorn.
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  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    Damn, forgot to answer your question...

    Go in with an angle. Find something which their company either does or has done recently which you can use to start a conversation about their marketing strategy. There's ALWAYS something if you just take the time to look.

    There's a world of difference between calling someone and saying "Hi, I'm Joe Blow copywriter.." and saying..."Hi, I read your press release about the new ___ product line and..."
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  • I agree with Seth having an "angle" when cold calling is good.

    A quick look at the website, news stories, products, services and existing Ads can make it leap out.

    A word of caution - this all takes time.

    And cold calling is probably the ultimate numbers game.

    You might want to just crack on and get the business.

    Particularly if you want this on the hurry up.


    The less time and stress it takes the easier it is.

    Your "angle" could be the one thing every client wants "more money and profits"

    So, at the hit the phone stage you may not do any real research.


    BUT another word of extreme caution before you go to the appointments.

    Do make sure you HAVE done all the research and you know just about everything there is to know about the company, its products, people and competitors.

    You'll have more angles than a book of triangles.

    And clients are impressed you know all this.


    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    If only...IF ONLY...someone had shared a proven method for doing this...


    @OP: don't be desperate.

    Look for the right FIT. The right opportunity. The right client. FILTER. Then getting the work is easy.
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    I was gonna say, re: cold calling...

    You're definitely not alone Seth. Jason posted great advice awhile back about drumming up biz with strategic cold calls. Gave it all away, step by step.

    That's why this place makes me nuts sometimes. Whatever works for you works for you. Try it. If it doesn't work, at least you're one step closer to finding what does.

    I never had much traction with cold calling personally, but Jason's approach was intriguing and made me want to try again.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Here:
    http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...riter-how.html

    Make your list of companies you'd like to write for.

    Then call and FILTER: do they hire outside writers? Do they have an opportunity that justifies your fee? Are they someone you really want to work with on a personality level?

    A No to any of these questions disqualifies them from working with you. YOU are doing the rejecting.

    And Not A Fit isn't rejection: it's not a fit.

    It's not hard; I do it all the time. That's how I get 4 and 5-figure jobs when most people around here are scrabbling for a few hundred bucks.

    At the beginning it's a bit of a slog, but that's because nobody knows you exist. After awhile you start getting referrals and leads from other sources. Those take the place of literally hundreds of dials. So I spend a few minutes on the phone calling new people now, and that's it. For example, yesterday I called an organic trade association with over 160 members across the US. I used the tv show I'm a producer for as the lead-in to create curiosity. Do you think I can do something to help this organization and their members? Do you think I'll get a fast Yes or No? (Which is what I want; no Think It Over limbo.) Found them via google search and by my normal channels I would never have known they existed.

    Know your expectations going in, as I explain them (most people won't be available to answer your call...keep at it day in, day out). Not knowing these is the reason people get discouraged. They expect just because they're dialing the prospect will be in to answer and talk. Not the case. You have to DO it, not one time but day in, day out. But the payday is great.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      Re: cold calling

      To: OP
      From: Alex

      Here's your choice. Either...

      1) Effectively position yourself as a copywriter. Prospects come to you already convinced you're an expert. You have leverage and control the fee negotiation.

      or

      2) Cold call. Rejection, rejection, rejection --- not good for your mental game. If you do talk to somebody interested in getting ad copy written, you have no leverage, no control. Your chances of getting a decent fee are slim.
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      • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
        Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

        Re: cold calling

        To: OP
        From: Alex

        Here's your choice. Either...

        1) Effectively position yourself as a copywriter. Prospects come to you already convinced you're an expert. You have leverage and control the fee negotiation.

        or

        2) Cold call. Rejection, rejection, rejection --- not good for your mental game. If you do talk to somebody interested in getting ad copy written, you have no leverage, no control. Your chances of getting a decent fee are slim.
        3) Direct Mail, Email & Cold Call. Have your first $30k month within the next year.
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      • Profile picture of the author jjosephs
        This debate pops up alot, but I'm not seeing the "one or the other" here.

        Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

        1) Effectively position yourself as a copywriter. Prospects come to you already convinced you're an expert. You have leverage and control the fee negotiation.
        Your positioning is one (important) piece of the puzzle.

        But even good positioning is no guarantee. For instance, I got work on Facebook, but fooling around with ads and custom audiences was a constant scramble, and the results were a roller coaster. The same exact positioning that would get me 3 leads one week would dry up to nothing afterwards

        So the time and effort you save on making calls goes into sinking money into clicks, rotating ads, playing with text, etc until you get the ad and the audience right.

        Then, once you're on the phone (unless your reputation precedes you) you'll have to communicate value anyway.

        2) Cold call. Rejection, rejection, rejection --- not good for your mental game. If you do talk to somebody interested in getting ad copy written, you have no leverage, no control. Your chances of getting a decent fee are slim.
        I happen to not love cold calling, and don't do much of it, due to my mildly high strung nature. But...

        Why does positioning suddenly become irrelevant when you make a phone call? Wouldn't that have more to do with my personal comfort level with it, and refining a strategy?

        Right off the bat, I can see a few main benefits:
        • Your no is an actual no. Not a symptom of an ad blocker or internet ADD syndrome.
        • You choose the industry/companies you want instead of hoping they view your ad.
        • An actual conversation is more dynamic. You tighten up your proposition. You hear in real time what people do or don't respond to, so less "shouting into an echo chamber"
        • If you have a good phone voice, it can create trust and authority that's hard to emulate in writing.


        So to the OP, I would say that positioning is a process, no matter which route you choose.

        If you're comfortable with the phone and willing to put in the work, go for it. And know that if you choose the more "passive" route, it will still require ongoing work.

        We're not talking "easy vs hard". We're talking "fishing vs harpooning". Depends on the context and your personal comfort level.

        And if you can do a decent job at both? You're freakin golden.

        But like Alex hinted, if you're in a fragile and uncertain place in life, where every no gives you heartburn, I would recommend you put down the phone for the time being.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
          Here's an article written by Perry Marshall which we can also throw into the mix...

          Positioning Vs. Prospecting
          Marketing 02

          Alex
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