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Kim Standerline |
 Posted - 04/18/2008 : 04:24:56
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I've just received a warning email Martin Avis has sent out to his list. I thought it appropriate to pass on the salient points here.
As we all probably know, a certain marketer is promoting his excellent book "Adsense Secrets" at a very knock down price of only $9.97. (Its well worth that price several times over).
Many affiliates are promoting the book, I bought it myself as I thought it would be excellent for my list.
Until Martin's warning, I had absolutely no idea that I had also subscribed to a $29.95 a month newsletter. and I wouldn't have done until it hit my debit card in a month or so's time.
Yes it is mentioned (buried in bonus 3) and its also mentioned on the order page (at the top). But I find it disturbing that there is no mention of it on the Product Order Information.
Anyone (like me) who just skimmed the sales page and went straight to the order confirmation form will have no idea what has happened.
I suggest if you have bought the book and you don't want the newsletter you submit a ticket at his help desk ASAP.
I'm not disputing the fact it is probably an excellent newsletter, I just find it disturbing that its being sold in such a way.
Needless to say I won't be promoting this to my list, this type of sales tactic leaves a nasty taste in my mouth
Regards
Kim
edit,I'm not "guru bashing" and I would appreciate it if any answers refrained from doing so. |
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BIG Mike |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 05:47:15
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Hi Kymi,
Wow - that does take the cake! Can I ask - was the payment made through their merchant account or something like PayPal? |
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Kim Standerline |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 05:55:58
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Hi Mike
It was made through their merchant account, I thought it a tad strange at the time there was no paypal option, but just assumed they had their own reasons for not using it.
Obviously if paypal had been an option I would have used it and been alerted when I got the subscription email from paypal
Cheers
Kymi |
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Slngz |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 06:01:38
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| I guess thats clever selling but i would hate to find out that that had happened to me. I hate on-going payments as it is... |
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Bambi_C |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 06:04:42
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Gosh, many thanks for the "heads up"...I was just about to order myself and then I thought I would just pop over here first to see if there was any reviews and bingo!
You've just saved me the headache of trying to unsubscribe down the track.
Thanks  |
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Kim Standerline |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 06:13:02
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I can't see any problems in ordering it, just make sure you submit a ticket to his help desk and tell them you don't want the newsletter and to unsubscribe you.
The book itself is excellent value.
Regards
Kim |
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trueblue |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 06:22:30
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I'm not sure I understand the problem. Maybe someone can clarify.
I read the sales letter for the product and saw this section:
"If after the free report you decide it's not worth ten times the subscription cost (which won't happen because you will be blown away by the content in this report!), simply contact us and cancel your subscription at any time! Otherwise, you may continue to be in the Top 1% for the discount rate of just $29.95 every 30 days. Wait until you see the bonus that comes with your first edition!"
It's compelling copy, but he does state that you can cancel at any time. And if you don't cancel, you'll get the subscription. It's right there, same size as the rest of the copy.
Someone may not personally like the idea of having to contact a company to cancel, but it's not as if he's forcing anyone to buy. If you don't like the way the offer is structured, don't buy.
Some might also say: "Oh, but it's 'hidden'"
Hmmmm... I saw it. And I wasn't squinting or reading the terms on a different page. It was on the same page as the "Order Button" and the details about the offer.
I think a phrase to repeat to oneself is "Personal Responsibility".
If I'm giving someone my credit card, I make sure I know the deal. What will I be charged? What is the cost of continuity? What's the guarantee period? If any of it is muddy after re-reading the offer in its entirety, I'll contact the company directly before buying (for clarification) or won't buy.
Any upset over continuity being added to Joel Comm's product seems to be someone trying desperately to cause controversy where there should be little or none.
If "you" didn't see it, then that should be a "dumb me" response. Not an "Evil Joel" response. He's playing fair. It's in black-and-white, on his site. Not sure why anyone should be upset. (Other than it's easier to be upset at a guru than at our own foibles)
Just my 2 cents worth.
Best,
Jeff |
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Kim Standerline |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 06:36:28
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Jeff
I've been marketing online for 6 years and I would consider myself pretty successful. In all that time I've never resorted to underhand methods of marketing. You obviously don't agree this is underhand, and that is fair comment. Many other people will agree with you. (It's their right to do so).
Yes I probably should have read the sales page more thoroughly however I didn't (It's rather a long one and I wanted the product anyway).
I should also have spotted the blurb at the top of the order page, (I didn't because I went straight to the checkout part).
I did wonder why they were not using paypal, but I assumed it was a personal preference thing. (I guess we shouldn't assume anything).
I'm a great admirer of Joel and I'm certainly not accusing him of of being evil so please don't put words into my mouth. I just think this is an unpleasant way to "market" his stuff
Apparently this is known as 'forced continuity' and it is a damned sneaky sales method. I can't understand why anyone would use it anyway, I can only imagine the howls of protest and the angry emails he is going to receive when those subscriptions start rolling in.
And I'd certainly love to know why someone would put their merchant account at risk of so many charge backs...
If he adds the fact that people have ordered a subscription to his newsletter to the product info on his order page instead of just Adsense Secrets, then I would say he's covered himself.
Kim |
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Bev Clement |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 07:28:52
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I didn't look at the sales page until today, and there are many people who have been caught by this forced continuity who are seen as top marketers.
When I read the sales page, I knew what I was looking for.
First problem, the top of the page didn't load for me, comes from being in a city with a typhoon warning and a bad internet connection.
Second about half way down the page was a download now in large letters.
Having bought the previous book, I would have seen that and gone for it, without any idea of the bonuses. This was before the bonuses was seen.
This is another case where the bonuses are worth more than the book.
Also why does someone have to give a bonus which is going to cost you each month?
Give a trial of it, but why not send out an email asking people what they thought and would they like to continue, or do they know that many people wouldn't and that is why they use underhand methods.
I have received a couple of emails from people who didn't see it on the sales page and are apologising to their lists.
Kim you are like many others who thought the book was a great deal, but have been sold down the river on this one. |
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Craig Desorcy |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 07:39:26
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If a program has a forced continuity back end I pass.
Unless I really want the product, then I'll get out
of the forced continuity right after buying the main
product.
forced continuity should work well outside of the IM
niche however. It's worth a try.
We are a very tough bunch to sell and service :-)
Craig
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William R Brandenburg |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 07:44:29
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Hi Kim
I think Martin did a real service to alert his patrons on his newsletter of this particular practice.
Whether it be legal or not I personally find it detestable. When I go to purchase a book or anything for that matter I know when someone charge me for something I did not opt in to.
It is my understanding that the federal and local authorities in the United States are looking at these types of practices and contemplating new laws and penalties. If you want to sell a membership or continuing service then by all means do but be completely upfront what it and not attempt to backdoor some on expecting consumer.
Live life to the fullest  |
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Martin.Avis |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 11:44:48
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I'd like to make it clear that I don't have any issue with this marketer's new book. I haven't read it, but have no reason to suppose that it is not an excellent product. Certainly its predecessors were, as far as I've seen them.
I also have no issue with the product that the forced continuity is selling. He has a reputation for producing good stuff and I've no reason to doubt that this isn't good quality too.
My objection was, and is, purely that the method of selling the monthly subscription has been cloaked to such an extent that many of his recent customers will not have realized what they were signing up for.
To me that is sneaky marketing. It may be legal, but it certainly doesn't feel all that ethical.
Sometimes the letter of the law isn't enough - as marketers we need to be seen to be completely above board. Enticing people to sign up for something without their explicit knowledge doesn't qualify, in my opinion.
If the product is as good as he says it is, why not sell it on its own merits. I'm sure there would have been plenty of takers for it. And a lot less long term flack.
Martin |
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tomw |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 14:49:26
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Forced continuity methods are as old and underhand a value exchange con as the two camel dowry for the ugly fat daughter!
Be advised that Matt Bacak's recent Mega "retirement" nonsense also has a similar trick even for those strong willed enough to resist four (YES FOUR!) one time offers for the same old crap in many different formats just to get your virtual hands on his "everything I ever did (five years ago) for one dollar" offer!
Joel should know better...especially as this "endorsement" of such questionable methods will only result in thousands of copycat eejits finding more ways to scam customers and pour even more scorn on this increasingly ignoble business.
Thomas
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Kristi Lane |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 16:13:03
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I think this is an important thread and hope it doesn't get nuked like the one yesterday. I emailed the support desk for this product and this is the response I received when I expressed my concern:
=========================================================================================
We apologize for any confusion, but we do state in the text above the order form that you will be rebilled in 30 days for our Top One Percent Newsletter.
So the information is stated twice.
I have passed your comments on to Joel, but I do encourage you to look at the sales page again, and on the order form to see how it is displayed.
The Top 1% Report is a professionally done newsletter and also gives you access to a private social network we are building for our members. You will also receive a CD with bonus products totally free.
It will be mailed out the first week of May, and you will not be rebilled until June 1st.
Displayed prominently on the first issue are cancellation instructions should you not wish to continue with the newsletter or our social network.
=========================================================================================
Kristi
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Jason P. |
Posted - 04/18/2008 : 19:48:30
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I think this is a bit sneaky as well. I realize the argument that the info is in the sales letter. However...
Everyone in IM knows who Joel Comm is. Everyone knows what AdSense Secrets is.
So... the newest version comes out, at only $9.95 - Holy Crap what a deal! Click "Buy Now"! Who is going to read every word in the long sales letter? You scroll down to the price and you're already sold. Even in the coupon around the buy button, in the summary of what you get, there's no mention of a recurring charge.
I don't think Joel's a bad guy, but I don't think this was a good way to handle this.
Just the fact that affiliates feel obligated to warn others by bringing it to their attention indicates that something isn't right.
Jason |
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tomw |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 05:47:40
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"Just the fact that affiliates feel obligated to warn others by bringing it to their attention indicates that something isn't right."
I couldn't agree more, Jason.
Also...if everything was above board and there was nothing "sneaky" going on, why didn't Joel mention the forced continuity newsletter in his video pitch?
Thomas |
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richt1971 |
Posted - 04/19/2008 : 08:49:36
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Hi Kim,
Wow! Very underhand and probably breaking the law in the UK as any add ons/ upgrades must be clearly marked. Doesn't look that way to me. Looks like a rather sneeky backdoor way of getting aload of money off people that won't even realise it until months later.
Rich |
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TimG |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 01:56:32
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The sad fact is many people barely pay attention to small monthly charges on their credit cards and probably won't even notice they are being charged a monthly amount or will be to busy/lazy to fight it.
Tim |
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Martin.Avis |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 07:29:04
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Okay,
I was quick to criticise, and now I'll be quick to praise.
Joel has listened and made substantial changes to his sales page. Now you can choose whether to order the book with or without the recurring charge. It is now very clear.
So much so that I've now bought the book and recommended it to my readers.
Martin |
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seg_cost |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 09:25:14
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Hi,
I think it is clever selling tactic albiet a bit shady, but very clever. People are falling for buying the newsletter. I think it is to recover the actual worth of the book itself, which is being sold pretty cheaply. |
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AussieT |
Posted - 04/21/2008 : 23:01:15
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I can't say I feel ripped off.
I really wanted the update (for the price that is) so I bought the book. I had spotted the 'catch' but figured I could easily cancel the subscription after I purchased.
However the promo has been done in such a way that you cannot cancel until after you receive the first months newsletter 'free'. The newsletter and CD will be posted in early may.
So I also sent in a ticket/complaint and received an apology email saying that full cancellation instructions would be clearly visible on the front of the package when it arrives and that there would be plenty of time to cancel before being billed the follwing month.
My opinion on this is that yes it was a sneaky and unworthy marketing ploy that will probably backfire on Joel and tarnish his reputation somewhat. I doubt if he will employ a similar tactic again in the future, but time will tell.
Personally, I just love saving money and so I'am still happy for the opportunity to get the updated version for only $10 bucks.
I will set up an Outlook reminder to pop-up and remind me to cancel the subscription 2 weeks before the first bill arrives and I suggest everyone else does the same.
And if by chance I really love the newsletter and think it's great value then I may even continue to subscribe, but it will have to provide exceptional value, before that is likely to happen.
AussieT |
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manna |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 04:36:01
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| Now a day advertisement industry is more profitable than any other online business. so keep learning about adsense. |
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Joseph81 |
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Adsense Secrets...