| Author |
Topic |
Navneet Rai |
 Posted - 03/14/2006 : 14:48:54
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Hi,
Amazon has a lot of books which involve application of NLP (NeuroListic Programming) in sales/marketing? I've read two books and it sounds fun how they can model successful people like this.
Anybody into it or using it on their website? Is this realted to what Joe Vitale teaches (haven't read his stuff yet)?
san
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Harlan |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 15:07:32
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Hi, in my opinion - what people are doing claiming it is NLP is a joke.
For language patterns the book to read is Patterns of Hypnotic Language of Milton H. Erickson.
It is not a simple read.
I'll give you an example.
One of the language patterns is called an embedded command.
Using this pattern you hide a command in the text of a sentence.
But most people do it in such an embarrasingly blatant fashion
they just piss off people.
"I'm sure you're ready to BUY RIGHT NOW!"
Or BY NOW, you're probably wondering how you can...
Yeah sure.
The first reason why people don't do this real well
is because they haven't studied the patterns.
The second reason it's not more popular is because
the so called experts don't have a clue how to do
the patterns.
They are consciously incompetent.
So, go to the Patterns book and study presuppositions above all.
Read the writings of Bandler and in particular, his nested
loops patterns.
The stuff works.
As far as modeling goes, the book to read is available from
http://www.expandingyourworld.net
Best book on reproducing excellence bar none.
Last year, I modeled John Carlton on writing copy.
In the next few weeks, I expect to model several
other copywriters including David Deutsch (who writes for
Boardroom and the major mailers), David Garfinkel, and
a few others.
Modeling works. Get the book I mentioned.
Hey, I've been doing NLP for nearly 30 years now. It works.
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Navneet Rai |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 16:38:50
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Hi Harlan,
First of all thanks for the well informed reply. You seem to know a lot about this subject!
quote:
So, go to the Patterns book and study presuppositions above all.
Actually i did buy myself a book on pattern mastery, a fairly http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4611590458">unkown book I got from eBay just a month ago called Advanced Language Patterns Mastery By Larry McLauchlin. Anyway, i haven't been able to make heads/tails of this because its just exercises and the information given there (it does talk about presuppositions which i was able to understand) is just too much to digest. Its like getting a calculus book without understanding algebra, so I'm guessing i will have to complete the Sue Knight's "NLP at work" first.
Anyway, my interest has only increased seeing there is so much material and research on this. I'll also checkout the book you've mentioned.
Thanks,
San |
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George Flm |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 16:46:44
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| If that information is so hot why people sell it? |
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George Flm |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 16:48:56
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Why don't they use it to their advantage?
I' sure "it works" but to what extend? |
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getsynergized |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 16:55:40
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I hear Harlan Kilstein is a copywriting
legend - or at least on his way.
Since he won't say it, I will suggest it.
Per our mutual friend Carl, Harlan.
Best wishes, John |
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gregburton |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 17:23:36
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Nice recommendations, Harlan. Do you have an opinion on Steve Andreas's writings?
Regards,
Greg
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Harlan |
Posted - 03/14/2006 : 19:19:36
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Steve Andreas is one of the old pros of NLP.
His early books were transcripts of the Bandler/Grinder sessions.
His best book is about the legendary family therapist Virginia Satir and
analyzes her language patterns. Wow. It's called Patterns of Her Magic.
My doctorate studies a language pattern called therapuetic metaphor.
These are specially loaded stories aimed at producing specific results
and goals.
You can learn them in Therapuetic Metaphors by David Gordon.
I just recommended that book to David Deutsch. The stories you
create are called isomorphic - that is - they match one to one
a person's experience.
David's stories are masterpieces.
The best person in NLP Persuasion in person is Kenrick Cleveland.
He has a basic sampling of patterns available on his site: www.maxpersuasion.com
The product was a download called Getting Started In Persuasion but I don't see it
on his site anymore.
As far as persuasion in print goes, I haven't seen anything I can recommend...yet.
Maybe one day I'll have to write one.
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John Rogers |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 05:04:37
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I'm certainly no expert on the subject but the Bandler and Grinder work is based on the work of Perls, Satir, and Erickson. They were forced to cease publication of their book Trance-Formations due to a legal conflict with the Erickson camp, though I can't remember the specifics of the case.
On a side note, I find it interesting that both Bandler and Kenrick Cleveland were plagued with chronic drug problems, and that Bandler allegedly had something to due with Kenrick's deep depression (that one could be nothing more than conspiracy theory, but is certainly an interesting theory).
John |
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John Taylor |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 05:13:45
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As a Master NLP Practitioner I am often appalled at the way
some people purport to know, understand and use NLP within
their sales letters and other promotional material.
The use of NLP requires a thorough understanding of both the
principles and the techniques and "a little knowledge can be
a dangerous thing" certainly applies in many cases.
Harlan has already pointed to most of the classic books, and
I'll suggest that anyone new to NLP would do well to read
"Influencing with Integrity" by Genie Z Laborde.
John
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John Rogers |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 05:40:52
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Thanks Harlan and John for the resources. I've never studied, but have long been interested in the subject. My interest began after hearing Kenrick on some old Jay Abraham tapes. I seem to remember him, or someone referring to him, talking about the use of embedded commands in sales copy, but I ran into a brick wall when trying to research further.
John |
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Harlan |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 06:18:03
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quote:
Originally posted by megaffiliates
I'm certainly no expert on the subject but the Bandler and Grinder work is based on the work of Perls, Satir, and Erickson. They were forced to cease publication of their book Trance-Formations due to a legal conflict with the Erickson camp, though I can't remember the specifics of the case.
Not true. Bandler and Grinder split. Bandler sued Grinder and others claiming ownership of the name NLP. Bandler lost.
As a result of the split Bandler refused to resissue any of the books
he had written with Grinder.
They are all out of print but commonly available in OOP bookstores like Alibris or on Ebay.
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John Rogers |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 06:44:39
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I'm aware of that case, however my understanding is that there was a separate issue with Trance-Formations prior to split that had to due with using Milton Erickson's name or the term Ericksonian hypnosis.
The Structure of Magic I and II, and ReFraming are still available new on Amazon for fairly cheap.
quote:
Originally posted by Harlan
quote:
Originally posted by megaffiliates
I'm certainly no expert on the subject but the Bandler and Grinder work is based on the work of Perls, Satir, and Erickson. They were forced to cease publication of their book Trance-Formations due to a legal conflict with the Erickson camp, though I can't remember the specifics of the case.
Not true. Bandler and Grinder split. Bandler sued Grinder and others claiming ownership of the name NLP. Bandler lost.
As a result of the split Bandler refused to resissue any of the books
he had written with Grinder.
They are all out of print but commonly available in OOP bookstores like Alibris or on Ebay.
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Andyhenry |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 07:04:39
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Hi San,
I'm not going to repeat everything already said, but I've been studying NLP for a few years now, will be doing the Master Practioners course with Bandler this year, and regularly attend a 'practice group' on NLP. I'm launching a new website very soon alongside the chap that runs my practice group.
John and I talk about this stuff regularly, and although I don't know Harlan, I can vouch for his comments showing a knowledge of the subject.
There's one big problem with NLP (in my humble opinion) - it's reputation.
You often hear people say things like "Oh yeah, NLP - I learned all about that when I was in sales", or "NLP - That's the psychological stuff you use on people".
In Truth, NLP is an amazingly useful concept which has thousands of useful applications for both you and other people. It's a powerful self-development tool (You've seen Tony Robbins and his motivational stuff? That's all based on NLP), a powerful business tool (you can find the answer to any question without needing the other person to say anything, and you can share best practice and performance increases), and a really powerful tool for therapy. The NLP 'Fast Phobia Cure' is one example (a very quick way to remove phobias).
In actual fact, NLP doesn't have the answer to life, the Universe and everything, and there are other ways to approach human communication that are being discovered all the time - however, NLP is now well-established enough that almost anyone can learn to be happier, more successful, and help others get the same.
If you're considering 'getting into' it, throw away any ideas about using it on people before you just start reading lots of books of how to use it to influence other people.
The most powerful use of NLP is when you apply it to yourself.
Regards,
Andy |
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HomeHustler |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 07:15:37
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As a nlp trainer (I was a student of richard bandler) I suggest you to buy some dvds or even better go to a nlp seminar. To read ABOUT something like nlp can help you but to actually experience someone like richard using nlp to teach you things is totally different.
I´m not a big fan of people who write or speak ABOUT nlp. Follow guys like richard bandler or john la valle who use the techniques to teach people and are masters in their field.
Stergi
P.S. Dr. Richard Bandler is one of the nicest, most brilliant human beings I´ve ever met in my life |
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n/a |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 07:34:55
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Big NLP fan here too. I like Bandler's "Trance-formations", hard to get, popular in the UK, costs about $50 used on ebay, worth it. I'm about halfway through mine, it's very well done, and well thought of.
I haven't gotten Bandler's "Persuasion Engineering" DVDs yet, though its on the list. The book is ok.
Tony Robbins' stuff re state management and "NAC" vs NLP, is a popularized (eg easier to understand/simplified) version of NLP. Recommend Bandler/Erickson etc to study as the source.
I agree w/Harlans' points above.
Ken |
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Assaf |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 07:43:15
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| So if I just discovered NLP, and want to know more about it, what should I do? What should I read? What are the basics? |
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jdsypolt |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 07:43:44
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| I've not even heard of NLP before this post. I do believe, though, that there is power in words (words you use on yourself and those you use on others). This power involves the negative and positive connotations in the words themselves. For instance, if you say, "This is too hard", it probably is. But if you say, "This is more of a challenge than I'm accustomed to", the personal result is that you limit your own self-defeating thoughts. |
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Andyhenry |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 08:20:44
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quote:
Originally posted by jdsypolt
I've not even heard of NLP before this post. I do believe, though, that there is power in words (words you use on yourself and those you use on others). This power involves the negative and positive connotations in the words themselves. For instance, if you say, "This is too hard", it probably is. But if you say, "This is more of a challenge than I'm accustomed to", the personal result is that you limit your own self-defeating thoughts.
NLP is MUCH MORE than language patterns, but there are a LOT of ways to improve verbal communication both internally and externally, so that might be a good place to start if it interests you.
Assaf - Buy 'Frogs Into Princes', it's a really good read and a great introduction into how powerful NLP is (it's written by R Bandler).
Try and stay close to the source (Bandler, Grinder, Erickson, etc.), otherwise you'll get overwhelmed by 'Introduction to NLP' type books, many of which are just repeating the stuff from the earlier books.
Andy |
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netmalls |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 09:01:26
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IF you were to follow your heart and mind, would NLP be the area that you would be attracted to ?
Taking action is much easier when you know it matches the beliefs that you have deep inside you, after all Life is about living, and creating a place of passion and play, work for the sake of work is seldom rewarding.
NLP like Internet marketing, study what they do, along with what they teach, The patterns you see may be differnt than the patterns that they teach.
Bandler is an auditory person, his writings are writen to be read outloud.
Ericksons focus is more on the inner game, the self talk of how to create an atmosphere of change for his clients.
Think to yourself and find what your beliefs are.
Are you looking for a confirmation that its effective? You will find that it is effective.
Are you looking for a confirmation that its in-effective? You will find that it is in-effective.
When you are creating your marketing are you coming from a place of peace and abundance ?
Or A mindset of lack, and need?
From out of the heart the mouth speaks. |
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Navneet Rai |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 10:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by HomeHustler
P.S. Dr. Richard Bandler is one of the nicest, most brilliant human beings I´ve ever met in my life
I must agree on that. I've never met him but listening to him is very entertaining because you can never know where the "education" stops and his jokes begin. The best part is when he starts talking about Freud, et al  That is Fuuuuuuuny!
I have "The Bandler Effect" 5 DVD set. I think I'll be watching that again sometime (fyi, its not related to sales/IM though but very helpful otherwise)
Thanks everyone for their insights and links to the available material.
San |
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socialight |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 10:14:15
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Everyone who wants to take their life to the next level needs to learn NLP.
It's more than language, it's a way of using your brain. |
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Will Edwards |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 10:33:00
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Very interesting thread - didn't realise there were so many NLP enthusiasts here. I've been working with NLP for the past few years & have a few articles about it at my Personal Development site.
All the best books have been mentioned above. By the way, you can now do a Masters in NLP. There's a uni somewhere down south in the UK - Portsmouth I think - where you can now do it, so it has finally achieved academic respectability. Most of the people writing in NLP mentioned above are indeed academics, but the degree is a pretty recent development.
Will |
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heidifre |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 16:05:52
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| Bandler's and Grinder's book "The Structure of Magic" is a basic, not easy to read but defintely gives you the taste of what understanding the structure of language can do to the experience that people create and recreate in their lives. As any other psychological currents, it presents some strengths and some weeknesses. However when accompanied by en experienced therapist NLP is effective: It is however fair to say that not for all people. |
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bf68 |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 21:29:34
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San,
Have to admit, I am a bit of an NLP junkie. I'm not a trainer or master practitioner but I've seen much of the material that's been referred to in the posts here. I'm aware some people aren't fans of NLP, but as Andy says NLP is not about the answer to life.
To get a good overview of NLP tools you can read Tony Robbins' Unlimited Power (his first book) or Awaken the Giant Within (his second). The first is closer to original NLP concepts while in the second he updates concepts with his own twist.
Also in my opinion, Joseph O'Connor's - NLP Workbook was a solid work on NLP fundamentals.
I think Larry's Advanced Language Patterns is really that, demonstrating how language patterns can be used to influence someone's thinking as well as giving you big clues to how a person thinks when you listen closely to how they talk about something. Language patterns are merely one component of how people relate to the world and others are right to point out there are other aspects to NLP.
One of Bandler's I enjoy is adding "Yet" to someone's declaration - "I can't do it!". Try it sometime and watch how the person responds.
Joe Vitale's work on "hypnotic" marketing is largely based on taking hypnotic language patterns as well as various marketing concepts and applying them to writing copy and promotion activities.
Brian |
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teflondon |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 07:39:55
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I'm glad I found this. My wife is very interested in NLP and I have bookmarked this series for her to read.
Thanks for all the info.
Don |
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MarkJ |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 08:39:32
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I'd highly recommend the two books that Harlan suggested, "The Hypnotic Language Patterns of Milton H. Erickson, M.D." Volumes One and Two. They're not light reading as Harlan mentions, but they're not all that difficult to understand.
There's lots of ways to "copy and paste" Erickson's phrases and patterns. Some people online have gone a bit overboard at times with it...
Erickson was the un-named "hypnotist" that Bandler and Grindler studied and mentioned, but didn't credit by name in their original book.
Mark |
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neptune500 |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 20:42:00
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I would highly recommend Tony Robbins's book Unlimited Power. This is an incredible book that exposes us to NLP and applying it for excellence in our lives. There is even a chapter on eliminating any phobia you may have had in your life in minutes! I read this book many times and the information & knowledge you gain from it is invaluable.
Let me know your thoughts on this guys. :) |
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Navneet Rai |
Posted - 03/18/2006 : 02:59:13
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Hi,
I know what you're talking about.. interesting stuff indeed. The best part is it has to be done one time only to get rid of the phobia forever. There is this guy named Chris Faulkner who has a demo for the same. I was very much amazed seeing him do that. Also as mentioned above, Tony calls his stuff NAC (Neuro Associative Condition), which i think is because of trademark reasons.
Regards,
San |
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Will Edwards |
Posted - 03/18/2006 : 03:20:04
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NAC is really NLP - I believe Tony Robbins settled out of court.
Will |
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Andyhenry |
Posted - 03/18/2006 : 03:21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by superasn
Hi,
There is this guy named Chris Faulkner who has a demo for the same. I was very much amazed seeing him do that. Also as mentioned above, Tony calls his stuff NAC (Neuro Associative Condition), which i think is because of trademark reasons.
Regards,
San
Spooky - I Charles Faulkner came to my NLP practice group a couple of weeks ago.
He was excellent and presented some new insights that I've never seen any offer about the linguistic side of NLP.
I believe we managed to get it recorded and my friend that runs the group has written a report of the session ready to go into the new website we'll be launching soon. (it's not there yet, but it'll be at www.practicallynlp.com)
Andy
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jcolanzi |
Posted - 03/18/2006 : 04:48:46
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San,
There's more to NLP than just the language
patterns. It one of many systems for gaining
control of that drunken monkey called our
brain.
Before buying a book, do a search on Google
for NLP and read many of the free articles.
You'll get a feel for the subject and you'll
make a more informed decision on where to
start if you decide to pursue the subject.
John Colanzi
"Nothing is true; everything is permitted."
- Hassan I Sabbah
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captkirk |
Posted - 03/18/2006 : 04:49:45
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quote:
Originally posted by superasn
Richard Bandler, NLP.. anybody read that stuff?
Yes, Anthony Robbins have read his stuff and made it famous.
Tony (Anthony) Robbins, is the author of:
Unlimited Power
Awaken the Giant Within
I highly recommend both of the books.
I would rather read Tony's version of NLP than Richard Bandler.
But, I do have several of Richard Bandler's books and enjoy them all.
In fact, I found out about "Richard Bandler" and "John Grinder" (Richard's co-author) from Tony Robbins. |
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captkirk |
Posted - 03/18/2006 : 04:57:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Harlan
Hi, in my opinion - what people are doing claiming it is NLP is a joke.
For language patterns the book to read is Patterns of Hypnotic Language of Milton H. Erickson.
Yes, I think Richard Bandler and John Grinder agree with you because they model Milton H. Erickson technique.
In fact, they wrote a book on Milton H. Erickson:
Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H. Erickson, M.D
by Richard Bandler, John Grinder
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captkirk |
Posted - 03/18/2006 : 05:10:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Harlan
quote:
Originally posted by megaffiliates
I'm certainly no expert on the subject but the Bandler and Grinder work is based on the work of Perls, Satir, and Erickson. They were forced to cease publication of their book Trance-Formations due to a legal conflict with the Erickson camp, though I can't remember the specifics of the case.
Not true. Bandler and Grinder split. Bandler sued Grinder and others claiming ownership of the name NLP. Bandler lost.
As a result of the split Bandler refused to resissue any of the books
he had written with Grinder.
They are all out of print but commonly available in OOP bookstores like Alibris or on Ebay.
Also, I noticed that you can get copies of Trance-Formations from Amazon. (20 used & new available from $50.50) |
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thehypnotist |
Posted - 03/18/2006 : 18:42:34
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WOW lots of NLP people here
NLP has been empirically tested over many years and many of its models and methods have been found to be largely ineffective
Due to general disillusionment with NLP, its mention in psychotherapy journals and books is becoming increasingly rare . NLP proponents have provided not one iota of scientific support for their claims, and as such NLP is considered inappropriate for thorough clinical studies
NLP has been classed as a pseudoscientific self help development in the same mold as EST (Landmark Forum) and Dianetics(Scientology). Authors such as Salerno ( also state NLP is pseudoscience, and have criticized its promotion as self-help, and psychologists such as Singer [201> and management experts such as have criticized quasi-spiritual and unethical uses within management and human resources developments. The National Council Against Health Fraud classify NLP is a "dubious therapy"
Numerous extraordinary and unsupported claims have been made by some NLP promoters. There have been claims that the hightening of perception using NLP can allow a novice martial artist to beat an expert , and that it is possible to develop photographic memory through the use of NLP .
Historically, NLP has many pseudoscientific associations such as the explicit and implicit erroneous adherence to Dianetic's subconscious engram concept , claims to rapid cures and treatment of traumas, the use of popular new age myths such as unlimited potential, left/right brain simplicities, past life regression, and the use marketing/recruitment models similar to that of Dianetics (Scientology) and other cults .
Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming |
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gregburton |
Posted - 03/18/2006 : 20:22:47
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just a note on the wikipedia material: a search of the NCAHF website reveals no links for NLP and one link for "neuro-linguistic". That is a summary of an article in another publication, which mentions NLP along with 42 other therapeutic modalities, including Jungian. The title of the article cited is from a publication of the "American Council on Science And Health" (ACSH) - which recently awarded a prize to Michael Crichton - apparantly for his belief that global warming doesn't exist.
In short - this is junk documentation, masquerading as "objective" science.
Regards,
Greg
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John Rogers |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 05:05:13
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quote:
Originally posted by thehypnotist
NLP has been empirically tested over many years and many of its models and methods have been found to be largely ineffective
I suppose the proof is in the pudding.
The sceptic should try it for himself. I have used some of the techniques and found them very effective.
quote:
Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
I have found that wikipedia is not always necessarily a credible source, as anyone is able to contribute content. The quoted passage is of course opinion.
John |
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n/a |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 17:30:14
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quote:
Originally posted by jcolanzi
There's more to NLP than just the language
patterns. It one of many systems for gaining
control of that drunken monkey called our
brain.
John Colanzi
Yet that drunked monkey often refused to
seek knowledge in its brain. That's why
NLP is a great temptation 
I suppose that the NLP guys don't know what
you intend to imply
Jeremiah |
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Blaz Banic |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 17:53:32
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Hi all,
I've been studying NLP for some time now and can tell you that it does in fact work... extremely well.
The problem with most people using it is that they just don't use it. It's one thing to read an ebook or listen to a tape, but a whole different one to practise it as suggested.
I strongly disbelieve the claims of miraculous recoveries and such B.S., but hypnosis and covert hypnosis work like a charm... every time. It has been scientifically proven. But the extent of what you can do with it is in my opinion far smaller than some people claim. Yet if used properly a person can achieve some staggering things.
Been there, done that.
NLP is a tool and will by itself do nothing for anybody. It is meant to be used -- that way it'll work very well.
It is true, however that many pseudo scientific "gurus" have adopted some of the techniques and claim it has limitless potential and that you're able to play a guitar like Steve Vai (a master electric guitar player) in a few days if you learn how to visualize and project his mind into yours, bla bla bla... not true by a long shot!
The truth is that NLP was and still is used in therapy by real doctors and some aspects have indeed been scientifically proven.
As for Joe Vitale's teachings... I can say that his stuff works. It is powerful and has made him and his clients millions. I've used one of the techniques he describes and have had tremendous results.
Hope this helps. |
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Richard Bandler, NLP.. anybody read that stuff?