highhopes

I joined this site StatCounter Free invisible Web tracker, Hit counter and Web stats because i saw it was a free stat tool you could use to trace your hits....OK nothing is free, to be worthwhile. i noticed it only does 500 hits after signing up and then you have to pay for the recieving stats over 500.

so i decided then to pay for a traffic top-up service $9.99. when i went through to the payment procedure i was shocked to see $99.94 MONTHLY services had been added different stuff related to more traffic, etc.

I went back to chalenge them about this and the y sent me this email;

Dear sir or madam,
I went to sign up for the top up $9.99 search listing to search engines for my URL and after putting my card details in noticed the check out amount was $99.99?
This is a monthly charge!
I dont know why this amount is showing and would like to cancel this and re-order the original service please.
Regards,
Ray jones



"Dear ray

Thank you for contacting ineedhits.

Because customers do have full control of their shopping cart, I can not refund you of all these service's I can only refund you of the $9.99 Top-Traffic service, and the rest give you a credit.
Please view the ordering process below
The ineedhits shopping cart (ordering process) works in the following way:
Select the products and services you require to grow your online business.
If any coupons are to be applied, please enter the coupon code on the right hand side in the end of your shopping card, click the 'Apply' button.
In next Step if you are an existing customer please enter your email, if not please select second option to create a new account and enter in your contact details (Name, Address, Phone, Email).
In Step 3 please enter in your credit card details into the secure form, read the terms and conditions and confirm that you read the terms and condition. Check your shopping cart for the total amount and services you have selected, and then submit your order
Your credit card is now charged.
Enter in the URL(s) that those services are to be applied to."

It appears i did not see the services were already checked when processing...Nevertheless, I missed this stealth type marketing ploy....I am to blame for not seeing it..but they wont refund, but just give me credits?

I am now extremly cauitious about these companies and cancelled these services even though i know It is $99.99 down the pan.

A little research on this forum and i read others were paying for a service for traffic and the traffic was rubbish!


Be warned this is a crock of S**t

John Pawlett

This is why the FTC started to crack down, I for one welcome it.

In your case I would do a chargeback with your credit card company, don't let them get away with it.

Regards

John

dave147

Yeah looks like a chargeback is in order, give your cc company a call.

BTW The free Statcounter will continue to track all your traffic but will keep a record of up to the last 500

seasoned

Highhopes,

You are NOT responsible for it! You did NOT order it. At least in the US, it is illegal and you can do a chargeback. Any US payment processor should ALSO see things that way and act accordingly. GO to the payment processor, if there is one, and ask for a refund. Failing that, try going to your bank and ddoing a chargeback.

Steve

KarlWarren

Up until I went through the process (in order to advise you how to take it further) - I was going to tell you that you should take legal advice and threaten action...

that was UNTIL I went through the process...

All the services on the 2nd stage of the order that are ticked are right there, and a line underneath them summarising the total cost.

Then, there's also a summary on the right hand side of the page giving you the cost breakdown.

Now, all I can imagine is that you were in a rush when you ordered and didn't read what you were purchasing.

I'm not saying this to be an ass, but it isn't a SCAM, nor is it UNDERHANDED because those items are clearly visible. I don't personally like the "you have to uncheck these options" part and wouldn't do it in my own business, but, that's just me.

Chances are, you'll lose a chargeback request.

[edited to add] On second thoughts, in my opinion it is a little underhanded - and I don't condone the business practice. But, I don't think you've got much room for recourse.

highhopes

This is exactly right Karl...to be honest i thought i would try out this little feature of getting more traffic claim $9.99 and did not pay too much attention to the page processing items, because i have never come accross trhis personally and I suppose should have taken more notice.
however, I quite liked the website and the way it promoted various features to use, ( untill I got some feed back from other warriors on past posts)

I have an off line business and sometimes you have to bite the bullet and go over board to appease your customers which i have done a few times.
I also do extra work for my clients as well and this really ensures a good relationship and appreciation from them.

Like i said i may write this off as a bad experience...I certainly would not use them again by virtue of their general attitude " oh yeah buddy read the contract, terms and conditions!

KarlWarren

I'm VERY surprised at the number of people in this post who have suggested doing a chargeback based on the circumstances...

Especially since, in your original post you actually stated that it is your mistake.

Highhopes, this is not aimed at you - because, from what I've read about your attitude and the way you've handled this, you're pretty awesome in my book...

This is aimed at those who didn't do any further investigation before offering their "chargeback advice"

Since when did not being able to get a refund because you rushed into a purchase and didn't fully read what you're signing up for become a reason for doing a chargeback?

Kindest regards,
Karl.

Product Developer

Karl to answer that...

Since the company he purchased from refused to amend his payment to the correct amount and provide "only" the service he was looking to buy.

Yes he made a mistake, however that does not give any company the right to refuse to amend the purchase and not issue a refund.

As Steve has pointed out with regard to US law, in the UK we have a cooling-off period "the long distance selling rule" which states:

"The consumer can cancel the agreement up to seven days after the goods are delivered or the service contract is agreed."

So Ray (highhopes) if I were you I would do a charge back immediately as the company has refused to put your order right.

Any decent firm would of refunded you the money minus the $9.99 for the services you wanted to take.

Alex

highhopes

It certainly shook me up and to pay more attention to what you are signing up to...the warriors obviously feel as I do about the ethics of it...Ok they have chosen to program the shopping page fully checked up...so you have to uncheck those items you dont wish to proceed with.

In my estimation it should be the other way around...you check the items manually!
I wonder how many people miss this? Or am I the only dumwit? lol!

What made me feel indignant was the fact they maybe could refund but choose not to and this is in text form on that shopping page ( i missed that too Dumwit)
Even though in my case no services will be applied as i have cancelled them.

Yeah Karl the credit / debit card chargeback would be null and void as it was my own fault for not noticing what I had bought in to.

To add, some of the services they offer are already being undertaken by some warriors.

Some easy money they earned there without lifting a finger.

Cheers you all and please watch your step and thank you all for your valued comments

BIG Mike

Based on Karl's comments as he went through the process, I think you have to look in the mirror to see who's culpable in this situation.

I don't know if them having check boxes already ticked is legal or not, but you did have a couple of opportunities to un-tick them. Before making payment, the total price was presented to you, and you could have bailed out at any time.

I understand you're upset and angry, but the only person who deserves that anger is yourself. You can't hold them or anyone else accountable for your mistake just because you were in a hurry.

If I were you, I'd suck it up, make sure the monthly subscription is cancelled and then from now on make sure you slow down, read everything carefully before you click the payment button and commit to something you didn't expect.

It's just a $100 mistake - it's not the end of the world and you've learned a valuable lesson here. Put that knowledge to use in the future.

sbucciarel

I think it's unethical and it stinks to high heaven whether or not he should have paid more attention. Particularly since he doesn't provide a refund. He obviously knows and counts on the fact that a lot of people aren't suspecting to have a sh*tload of products that they didn't order directly tacked on to the product that they did order.

Publishing this here so everyone knows what a scummy little company Ineedhits.com is good so everyone will be aware of what they are getting into.

If they won't provide a refund, I'd have no hesitation to do a chargeback ... none at all.

Product Developer

Big Mike

Whether the boxes are ticked or he read the agreement or not are irrelevant, in the UK he has the right to a refund for any reason when buying online.

The office of fair trading states that companies who sell good or services via the Internet, digital television, mail order, phone or fax, are entitled to a seven day cooling period at which they can cancel and receive their money back in full within those seven days.

The law in the US may differ however this is the law in the UK.

And as someone from the UK purchasing from the Internet in the UK, I would be more inclined to "not put up with it and get my money back" by any means and if that was via a chargeback then so be it.




Distance Selling Regulations

If you sell goods or services to consumers by:

• the internet
• digital television
• mail order, including catalogue shopping
• phone
• fax

then you need to know about the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000.
The key features of the regulations are:

• you must give consumers clear information including details of the goods or services offered, delivery arrangements and payment, the supplier's details and the consumer's cancellation right before they buy (known as prior information)
• you must also provide this information in writing
• the consumer has a cooling-off period of seven working days.

"consumer's cancellation right" must be in accordance with the long distance selling rule (you can't just make these up, there is a minimum legal requirement)

BIG Mike

Why shouldn't he have paid more attention? I just now went over there through the process and it's perfectly obvious what the total price is, that the payement of $9.99 is per month and so forth. Nothing was hidden and it was as simple as either unticking the extras or removing them from the cart prior to making payment.

Why is it that when someone makes a mistake someone else should be held accountable?

It took me all of 3 minutes to check out the process, see that no refunds were available and bail out at that point. Their Terms of Service are actually really well written and perfectly clear/easy to understand.

What I think stinks is this sense of, "I can't be responsible for myself even though I'm an adult". Well folks, it's time to grow up - no one forced him to jump into it, no one forced him to be in a hurry and no one hid anything from him. It was all right there in plain sight.

We can commiserate with him because we've all made goofy mistakes at one time or another, but that doesn't make him right or entitle him to label these folks scammers. They clearly indicate in their TOS that they don't do refunds on most stuff and also list all of the various fees charged for cancellation of certain services.

Until now I never heard of them but after looking at their site, reading the OP and his admission, I think it's reasonable to defend them.

BIG Mike

[Edit]Just made a stupid mistake myself and edited this post with new commentsand deleted the original one, which was, "Was this a UK company?"[Edit]

Damn it! You made me go read through a bunch of those UGK regs, LOL

Firstly, I'll say again I'm not a lawyer, and I sure as hell know knowing about UK law. But your statement in red above is absolutely not true. There are numerous exceptions to the regulations about refunds and the right to cancel in Distance Purchases, regardless of the location of the buyer and seller.

And in this case, they refunded him the only part of the purchase they were required to under the regs in my unqualified opinion.

Product Developer

Big Mike

No It wasn't a UK company however the FTC for the US - states that consumers purchasing online have "three days" (as opposed to the UKs seven days) to get a refund in full with any purchase over $25 and in his case they were charging $99!

So he's still entitled to get he's money back alright, regardless of yours or anyone else's opinion "that is what he's entitled too".


The Cooling-Off Rule: When and How to Cancel a Sale

If you buy something at a store and later change your mind, you may not be able to return the merchandise. But if you buy an item in your home or at a location that is not the seller's permanent place of business, you have the option. The Federal Trade Commission's (FTC's) Cooling-Off Rule gives you three days to cancel purchases of $25 or more. Under the Cooling-Off Rule, your right to cancel for a full refund extends until midnight of the third business day after the sale.

If You Cancel

If you cancel your purchase, the seller has 10 days to:

• Cancel and return any promissory note or other negotiable instrument you signed;
• refund all your money and tell you whether any product you still have will be picked up; and
• return any trade-in.

BIG Mike

This is an Australian company - and I just read through one of the PDF's regarding the UK's regs on this...

I'm not a lawyer - but it seems to me that Rule 13 might apply in this case because the buyer did give permission to start the services immediately.

And, unless I am misreading this, people who make distance purchases in the normal course of their business are excluded from protection under the regulations.

BIG Mike

This is really the whole point to what I'm saying in the first place - you did your due diligence and avoided the problem. Well done - and it's exactly what the OP didn't do.

I'm not defending this company's practice of "Pre-Ticking" the checkboxes, but the fact that the OP could have easily avoided paying that much is clear. Unlike your situation, none of this was hidden away or buried where he might never see it.

It's easy to say "Chargeback", but if you're in business online, just wait until you reach the point where every Tom, Dick and Harry who buys from you come up with, "I didn't see it so I should get a refund or do a chargeback" type comments. Believe me, you'll change your mind in a hurry.

After looking a little deeper, this company seems to have been around for about 12 years. I somehow doubt they're on the verge of collapse or desperate for sales. They've clearly stated their policies so why should they have to change them if someone doesn't exercise a bit of prudence and do their due diligence?

sbucciarel

I wouldn't change my mind at all. My business practices don't include trying to trick people into buying something. Any company that uses trickery and does not provide a refund will get what they deserve ... bad press like this and chargebacks.

I rarely have a refund request and when I do, it is usually from a scammer that is "pretending" that they did not make the charge. This guy is choosing lack of transparency and trickery as his business model.

KarlWarren

Nope, go to ineedhits.com - click the ad on the front page, create a new account and tell me what part of the order process (up to but not including putting in your cc details) is trickery?

Everything is there, in plain sight - not in small print like some companies.

Like I said, it's not the way I choose to do business - BUT, it's far from trickery.

BIG Mike

What Karl said - there's no trickery. Believe me, if there were I'd be right there saying chargeback too.

It's not my way of doing things either, but it clearly wasn't trickery. The OP was in a hurry and made a costly mistake.

I have a no refund policy on everything now and it's out there in plain sight right above the order button. Same font. Same format. Clear as a bell. Guess what?

Some bonehead demands a refund and calls me a scammer for adding the no refund policy after they made their purchase.

Not offering a refund, if clearly stated is not trickery and I can't understand why you would think it deserves bad press. If you disagree with the policy, then you don't buy - but it's their business to set their policies (as long as they're legal of course).

sbucciarel

If it's not trickery, then why does the site feel the need to pre-check items that you did not intend to order? I think that to be very clear and transparent, you ... the buyer ... should be the one to check off the items that you wish to purchase ... not the seller. That is trickery in my book and it's apparent that it works for people who are not expecting it or this thread wouldn't exist.

balara

Big Mike, I feel that you are being a bit harsh on High Hopes. Everyone makes mistakes, even you! For starters, statcounter.com is not an Australian company...it's Irish (miles away from Aus.)...and hasn't been around for about 12 years. OK, so these mistakes may
seem trite unless you say, as you did, that you "dug a bit deeper" to come up with the "being around for about 12 years" bit, and how much due diligence did you do before labelling statcounter.com to be Australian Company?
No doubt High Hopes wishes to heck that he had read things a little better before jumping in, but that error of judgement should not deprive him of any rights that he may have in regards to seeking a refund. Nor should he be slammed for trying to do so. It's all a part of the capitalist system.
Having said all that, many of your comments Big Mike, have given all of us something to think about and I thank you for that, because I am one who is a bit too hasty sometimes and jump in without reading the fine print.

Cheers
Veronica

Product Developer

Mike

This is absolutely true through the long distance selling laws which state:

The protection includes:

• The right to receive clear information about goods and services before deciding to buy;
• Confirmation of this information in writing;
• A cooling off period of seven working days in which the consumer can withdraw from the contract;
• Protection from credit card fraud.

In this case he is saying he never had clear information with regard to what he was buying. And the law says he has seven days to withdraw from the contract...

He also notified the company that the service and charge was not what he had thought and gave them chance to amend the purchase to what he thought he was getting "in writing" to the company and asked them to put it right" and they refused.

BIG Mike

Veronica,

I never claimed I don't make mistakes - but this is about ineedhits.com, not statscounter.com, so please don't presume to tell me I did not do my due dilligence until you have read the entire thread carefully

And if I seem harsh on the OP it's because he's needs a wake up call about his responsiblities onlines.

Nothing frustrates me more than a person who refuses to take responsibility for his or her actions. He's in here calling this company a bunch of scammers because he made a mistake, which grossly unfair of him.

[EDIT] And I'm not suggesting the company couldn't have handled this better or that the "Pre-Ticked" items is the right thing to do. But, it's their company and as long as what they are doing is legal, there's nothing he can do about it. [/EDIT]

BIG Mike

No - you're only copying and pasting the bullet points that support your argument...go read the entire law along with the update to it and you'll see what I mean.

There are many exclusions to this law depending on whether a product or service was presented, whether he agreed to immediate service (he did) and then section 13, which covers the rest. In effect, he probably waived his right to notification in writing by agreeing to an immediate service.

Again, there is a lot more to this law that your bullet points. You need to read and understand it in its entirety - not just the portions you think cover him.

[EDIT] Also note that this law is only valid in the UK for UK businesses - its based on EU regs but they do warn consumers about Distance Buying from foreign countries and that the laws of those countries apply. [/EDIT]

Mohammad Afaq

It is very very sad. I have been using Stat Counter for about 2 years now and I thought they were great guys to go business with, I was wrong.

So now, do you plan on letting them get away with it?

Don't, file a chargeback with your credit card company and get their asses to pay you the money back.

BIG Mike

It wasn't StatCounter - it was ineedhits.com

BIG Mike

Agreed - it probably could have been handled much better. If it were me, I would have probably refunded him too.

And thanks for taking the time to at least look at the process for transparency. Seems like a lot of folks are making snap judgements without looking.

R Hagel

The original poster does mention(and link to) StatCounter in the first line of his post. It's confusing because ineedhits.com is mentioned in the title and elsewhere. It appears they're related.

***

BTW, I ran through the sign up process at StatCounter (the link given in the OP), and they did have all that stuff pre-checked. That sucks. BUT... it was very transparent. Not only was my shopping cart total clearly visible during the entire process, it asked me to read and agree to the TOS before completing the purchase.

So yeah -- pre-checking stuff is no good. But I wouldn't file a chargeback if I missed it... simply because it wasn't hidden at all. I could only blame myself for not taking enough care to confirm my shopping cart before finalizing the order.

...Which btw, people should do that anyway -- a little glitch can easily put two items in your shopping cart when you meant to just add one. I've even had that happen at places like Amazon. But there too, accidentally ordering two products would be my fault -- not Amazon's.

cheers,
Becky

dave147

You were not wrong...this about ineedhits

Product Developer

No - I understand the law fully...

And in this instance, under these circumstances in the UK he is entitled to a refund.

I know how the small claims process works in the UK.

I also have friends who are magistrates and they assure me that if something like this went to a small claims court in the UK, they side with the consumer especially when the consumer have written to the company asking them to put the order right within the seven days!

You can read all you like Mike in this situation you're wrong when it comes to this situation in the UK.


Then again... you knew that UK law was irrelevant when you asked what country the company were in, some posts later and told me - that my statement is absolutely not true.

"You go talk to a magistrate who sits in a UK small claims courts week in week out and ask them"

Clearly you already knew full well the company were not in the UK - yet still felt the need to read up on UK law just to try and prove me wrong...


and then you posted this some posts later:
[EDIT] Also note that this law is only valid in the UK for UK businesses - its based on EU regs but they do warn consumers about Distance Buying from foreign countries and that the laws of those countries apply. [/EDIT]

So there was no need to keep banging on about it then was there!


Even though the first post I made was in response to Karl (Since when did not being able to get a refund because you rushed into a purchase and didn't fully read what you're signing up for become a reason for doing a chargeback?)

If it were me I would want a refund and UK law allows it - so people have the right to do it. That is my argument!

In the UK if he had contacted the company in writing and asked them to put it right within the seven days and they refused, the law is on his side. So if the firm don't play ball then - chargeback.

And I stand by what I said which was:

(The law in the US may differ however this is the law in the UK.

And as someone from the UK purchasing from the Internet in the UK, I would be more inclined to "not put up with it and get my money back" by any means and if that was via a chargeback then so be it.)


You said "suck it up, take the loss and learn from it"

I personally wouldn't... if the company didn't put things right that I thought they should have - regardless, I would do the chargeback and get my money.

And if the company wanted to take me to a small claims court then so be it.

Because that's how it works when I buy something here (the UK)

Just the same as when I buy something from a brick and mortar high street shop and I decide to returned the goods within the time frame on the receipt I would get my money back.

Not store credit like the US as cjmo75 mentions.

BIG Mike

If this company was in the UK I believe they would be excluded under the law as I read it. Once again, I am not a lawyer, but their simplified explanation of how this law applies makes it obvious to me.

Distance Buyers in the UK are not just automatically entitled to refund or a 7 day cooling off period in all circumstances. If you know the law, then you know this to be true. I'm simply repeating what I have read about it.

I read up on this UK law today because A) I had the free time and B) I get tired of people throwing this one clause out there as if it were the entire law. It's not...

At the time I asked the question I did not know they were an Australian company - I was "Talking out loud" and went and checked myself.

This is the reason why absolutely NO ONE should ever listen to or repeat legal advice they receive in a public forum. When in doubt, consult with an attorney who specializes in that area of law.

I stand by my earlier comment in that I believe you are wrong.

Product Developer

[quote]The law in the UK isn't all black and white as I'm sure is the same in your country.

I never said in all circumstances - however in this instance and in (highhopes) circumstances in the UK he would be entitled to a refund.

I never said it was the entire law - again merely pointing out in (highhopes) circumstances in the UK he would be entitled to a refund. So he is within his rights to chargeback.

Agreed no one should listen to legal advice from a forum.

You can believe all you like, I don't particularly care what you think, I know full well in these circumstances, with written notice to the company and within the seven days in the UK he would be entitled to his money back.

Fact! Not just my opinion but from previous experience and a magistrate who works in small claims also that this is not wrong.

So we'll agree to disagree on this one Mike

It's late I'm off...

balara

Big Mike,
I apologise for my stuff-up about which company was actually under discussion. You are correct in that ineedhits.com is an Aussie company.

The Consumer Law in Australia is regulated by the ACCC. Companies in Aus. are required to comply with ACCC regulations of course. Issues relating to consumers are set out under specific headings and conciliation is always encouraged when consumer/retailer problems arise.

With regard to the business practices of ineedhits.com, it appears that they are following ACCC requirements in relation to their policy on refunds. Nevertheless, there is always room for dialogue and compromise in the interests of good customer service.

I realise that what I have written above is not the issue here and is not at the heart of Big Mike's frustration.

What I have benefited most from this thread, is a new awareness of how carefully we should read the fine print before we make a purchase, and how important it is to keep emotion out of the transaction.

Mike, I still think you were a bit rough on High Hopes, but by gosh, you have done a jolly good job of providing information on the mindset consumers need to have when entering in to a purchase contract. Thank you heaps for that.

Veronica

Floyd Fisher

Karl:

Research 'hidden forced continuity' and see what this is all about.

Assuming his story is true, what happened is illegal as all hell. He shouldn't have to check for mysterious checked boxes, he should simply be checking off the stuff he wishes to purchase.

He should report this to the authorities asap.

Anil Pandey

I know this may be off the point, but does INEEDHITS Search Engine Marketing Services | SEO Services - Search Engine Optimization | Website Traffic Specialists | Free SEO Tools deliver?

I am looking to use their "submit your site to 300 search engines" option costing $2.99 (per site) for 5 sites so would be grateful for any advice on their efficiency.

Thanks

Anil

KarlWarren

Hi Floyd,

if you notice from my later post, neither the continuity is hidden, nor the checked boxes mysterious. It might look like I'm defending INH, I'm not - I'm merely pointing out facts, as per my own investigations after reading this thread.

If you go through the order process (without entering your card details when prompted) you'll see for yourself.

whateverpedia

Australian law states that the company is only obliged to give a refund if the goods/services are faulty. This does not apply to making a bad choice (such as wrong colour, change of mind, etc.).

If you simply changed your mind, they are only obliged to give a credit note for further purchases.

By the sound of it the Aussie company have done enough to cover their asses from what Big Mike described going through the sales process.

When you requested a refund they offered you a credit note against further purchases. They are right, and everyone else who said "chargeback" (including my fellow Aussie* above) is 100%, bone dead wrong.

They told you what you were ordering, and how much it was going to cost, so I'm afraid it's caveat emptor.

*Article Excellence not balara

whateverpedia

He can report it to as many authorities as he wants. He can file whatever legal claims he wants. He doesn't have a leg to stand on.

You are wrong, it is not illegal as hell, it is 100% legally correct. The "mysterious" checked boxes may not be the best in terms of customer service, however they are not illegal.

Caveat emptor applies. He was told what he was getting, and how much it was going to cost. All above board, and transparent.

They may give him a refund to "make him go away", however they are not obliged to.

See my post above.

highhopes

Absolutely, it`s not so much what they deem to put into their terms and conditions, it`s the CUSTOMER SATISFACTION policy that will give them a good name and enhance their reputaion and thereby recieve more referals!


I have always stated it was a mistake and perhaps they would look favourably on my request to refund for the services i did not require.


Well said Veronica


I thought it was a stealth ploy to perhaps gain more sales knowing that maybe a percentage of people would not notice in their haste to sign up to A service. I remember the night well I was tired and the site had such a lot of information on it, I quess i had info indigestion!


Well at least i get a new description " Bonehead" lol, No I have not stated it is a scam Mike...see you have got something wrong here. If this was a legal issue i could get you for defamation of character ( I laugh out loud)

This would be the defining issue, I agree, give back the cash and they would stand high in my big book of better business practices! ( they dont have to as has been pointed out) He smiles .

Mike, let me put my thoughts to this another way.
All that is said previously , I perhaps would like to point out my experinces in dealing with fellow Warriors.
My experiences with my purchases from them has been fantasic on the whole.
(1) They give a 30 day trial and refunds if not acceptable
(2) They help you every step of the way, and go beyond their remit to give help if you are stuck on something.
(3) This make me want to purchase from them again and again.

Now this is all i want to point out here, if Ineedhits conducted their business model on the outstanding Warrior model of business their would not be need for this thread.
Clearly, there are disgruntled Warriors here voicing their opnions on my behalf, and i thank you all for your comments.
This said, it does show that people have an opinion that ineedhits should change their company policy and that opinion is valid even though if it only represents say 50%
of the warriors on this post.

I dont think i am chidish if i have an opinion about the policies about a company i dont happen to agree with ( " it`s time to grow up")
Let me ask you a question Mike;
Do you sell anything, and if so what are YOUR company policies on refunds?

It is a lesson learned and I think my immediate thoughts are , yes i will go back there and use up my $99.99 credit. Any ideas what you warriors?

pearsonbrown

I don't really want to intervene in this debate but I need to point something legal out.

Under EU legislation, a transaction on the Internet is considered to take place in the country where the customer is. So in this case, the transaction is considered to take place in the UK, not Australia, and UK consumer law applies.

Obviously Australian (and US) law is different on this and I suppose at some point we'll see a test case.

Pearson

KarlWarren

Just one thing...

at no point in the thread did the OP suggest it was a scam, nor claim that it wasn't their mistake. It's the resulting "this is a scam" "do a chargeback" "oh, how dare they" posts that I've been responding to.

The OP went about it the right way in my opinion...

1) Realised they'd made a buying error
2) Approached the company for a refund and put their case forward

(at this point, me, I'd have probably given a refund due to buyer error, but that's the company's prerogative - assuming it's within the law)

3) Was advised they would not receive a refund (as per the company's own principles)
4) Took it on the chin as a lesson to be careful when buying
5) Advised others to be careful, so that they don't make the same mistake

Kindest regards,
Karl.

BIG Mike

See my reply at the end, which includes this...


I wasn't calling you a bonehead - I was referring to a customer of mine that did this recently.

Please - read all of my posts very, very carefully...I'm not dissing you.

Do I sell anything? Hehehehehe...

Yes, and my refund policy is clearly stated - no refunds for any reason. Bear in mind that probably 98% of my customers become repeat customers despite that policy.

This is because having a no refund policy has nothing to do with customer satisfaction - I primarily sell software and "Best Practices" for the industry are no refunds; exchanges for defective media only.

OK, let me get on with the rest of my answers to your comments. Maybe I'll get flamed...maybe not.

First of all, as I've said in a couple of my posts, I do commiserate with you. We've all made mistakes like this in the past - and we all pay the price.

In your final comments to me you talk about your opinion on what the company should do and the 50% of Warriors agreeing with you and INeedHits should change their company policy. That they should do business in the Warrior way...

This is something that a lot of folks don't seem to get (and I'm not defending them). As business, they've established their policies, which presumably are in compliance with whatever laws have jurisdiction over them. Regardless of what you or I or anyone else thinks, they don't and most likely won't change a thing.

As a consumer we've got a choice - do business with them or not. Who are we to dictate to them how they should run their business? If you came to me and said, "BIG Mike, I'm never going to buy from you until you change your no refund policy because I don't agree with it.", I'm going to reply back thanking you for letting me know that, telling you the policy will not change and wishing you well in whatever it is you're doing online.

The reason is simply that you have absolutely no understanding of why the policy was put in place or what purpose it serves my company. I'm not going to arbitrarily change a policy based on a handful of potential customers dictating to me how I should run my business.

Will I take note of your comments? Absolutely - but the bottom line in any business are the nuimbers themselves. You're mistaken in thinking that customer satisfaction is the real bottom line - it's not. <start flaming me now>

Customer satisfaction, unless identified as a specific, tangible reason for a drop in sales is not the issue. It's possible to have really high customer satisfaction and no sales coming in just as easily as the opposite.

Now before you really start flaming me, my company has an excellent reputation for quality customer service. We're not perfect, but we strive to be. At the end of the day though, I've got to do what I think is best for my company - not what you or a few other Warriors think because you disagree with my policies.

In this case, while it may seem I'm against you, I'm not. Like Karl, I'm against the idea of a chargeback being done because the company did not do anything wrong.

We can talk all day long about what would be nice of them to do, but we don't control them. What we should be noting is that in fact they did exactly what their policies indicate they would do. Nothing more - nothing less. While that may result in lowering your satisfaction as their customer, it doesn't necessarily follow that ALL of their customers are unhappy.

I hope that makes sense - again, I'm not dissing you...I am a regular hardass most of the time, but it's well intended.

highhopes

No I know really Mike, this is only light banter anyway, nothing personal, that`s fine.

Interestingly, i have always understood a money back quarantee increases sales, risk reversal. Now you have the direct opposite view, but all the Gurus out there have this I believe.
We speak as we find and this is my understanding.
Now given a choice between your company policies and another selling the same product with a refund policy in place I would choose the other.

You may perhaps double your sales if you were more in line with what the Gurus are doing???

I copied this from a USA information site on good business practices.




Why do you need a refund policy?

To increase your conversion rate
Whaa? Having a customer-friendly refund policy leads to a higher conversion rate?

Yup, who would have thought....

There are two reasons for this.

When people come to your site, they will make a very quick decision about how credible you are. That credibility will be a huge factor in determining whether they have the confidence to buy from you. Things like how transparent it is who you are (company information), terms and conditions (how thorough you are) and the professionalism of your design all contribute to this decision. A great list of easy steps you can take can be found on the wiki page about a Stanford study on credibility.

Secondly, and perhaps more important, your refund policy is an important factor in the risk your customer perceives of their impending (hopefully) purchase. The more you can reduce their perceived risk, the greater the chance of them buying. This is sometimes call Risk Reversal and the great Mindvalley Labs guys have an excellent explanation of it on their blog. They actually offer a double money back guarantee on a product priced over $1000!
Its been proven many times that if you offer a great refund policy, your sales/conversion will improve by a bigger factor than the amount of refunds you might have to give out. Zappos anyone?


What about your refund policy?

A couple of last things to consider when deciding your refund policy. Firstly, if you have a hard-nosed policy, that tends to create an impression of what kind of business you are. Obviously, you want a positive customer experience so they will tell people how great you were... word of mouth marketing. Secondly, if you are not willing to offer a easy refund, how much does this really cost. Chances are you will frequently get involved in back and forth emails which take time. How much was that time worth, and would it have cost less to simply issue the refund?

Regards,

BIG Mike

Dude, class is now in session - get out your notebook, pen and pencil and pay very close attention to Professor Mike

Do you recall reading this comment in my previous post to you?

Without getting into the numbers, let me just say that my company does a staggering amount of business online. By staggering, I mean it's not unusual for us to have $5 to $10K days (during sales primarily). We also have numerous other revenue streams in place that are incredibly profitable.

I am a very prudent businessman - I'm by no definition an Internet Marketer and I pay pretty much ZERO attention to what the so called "Guru's" have to say. They primarily sell Info or MMO type products, which are an entirely different animal from what I sell.

That said, let me also tell you that on January 1, 2009, we pulled the trigger on a decision to test the impact of a NO Refund Policy versus our 60 Day No Questions Asked Policy. We ran the test for 6 months to be absolutely certain the policy would not have a negative impact on our sales.

Due to a number of other things we were doing, contrary to your findings, our sales increased by a factor of 5 - yes...we made 5 times more sales during that test period than over the same period the previous year. Because the test demonstrated that there was a negligble impact on sales, we implemented it as our permenant policy.

The moral up to this point is that rather than simply assume what you're being told is the only way to do things, you must test everything in this business, again and again. How else can you be certain the person telling you this knows for a fact how it will impact your business?

Now, my observation so far is that you're thinking like a consumer - you're making assumptions based on emotion and as someone who actually believes that these self-appointed "Guru's" out there really know their stuff. You couldn't be more wrong, I'm sorry to say.

You're making assumptions that:

1. I don't know how to run a business and;
2. I don't understand what drives a customer to purchase and;
3. I don't understand the value of customer care and;
4. I need to change my methods to increase sales.

Let me bring this quote up again:

The reason we decided to test a No Refund Policy in the first place is simply because we were getting a lot of "Tire Kickers" who wanted to try it out, use the software to do what they needed and then get a refund. You also didn't know what I already knew - 99% of my regular customers would not have a problem with a No Refund Policy.

I don't mind giving refunds as we can disable our products remotely through our licensing system anyways - but it was needlessly causing additional work for us that we wanted to minimize. The No Refund Policy is a message to these folks that we do not want them to buy it if the word refund is even at the back of their mind.

Another thing you wouldn't know is that when a regular customer asks for a refund, we usually provide one to them as a customer loyalty bonus. We also provide good customers who are down on their luck free memberships, coaching and other things to get them back on their feet.

Now, we produce some excellent products and continually work to upgrade them as much as possible. We also provide free upgrades for life on many of them as an offset to our No Refund Policy. Add to that is our policy of providing free support to our customers and to actually work with them to resiolve their issues, makes us a good bet.

We're not perfect by any means, but we have an incredibly high retention rate in our memberships and darn near 100% repeat customers, so we're clearly doing things right. There is always room for improvement and that's something I focus on every day with my team.

The reason I'm telling you all of this is that there is far more to what and who we are than you might think, based on only seeing the surface of things. You're presuming to know what's best for our business, without knowing anything about it - that's why you brought up the information on refunds.

The second moral of this post is that when you try to run your business with a consumer mindset based on your own personal likes and dislikes, you're going to fail. I've been in this business a long time and I've seen it happen over and over.

Hence my original, "Time to Grow Up" comment. I'm not saying it to pick on you - but from my perspective, you've got a lot to learn if you're hanging on the words of everyone else and not testing things for yourself. You must learn to separate your feelings as a consumer when you are planning your business activities.

highhopes

Well Proffessor Mike, i think you have a model of business that works for you and good luck to you and it, i mean that.
however, we speak as we find and my opinion is I would always go for a company offering risk reversal, plain and simple.

I have a succsesful offline project management company and know this works in my running of the business.
Pandering to my clients producing quality results on a formula that they do not pay until they are totally satisfied....including the little sweetners thrown in for good measure.
I dont advertise my company it is ALL word of mouth sales.

I am afraid i go with most of the warriors means of selling that i have come accross, that is 30 day money back qurantee...and that`s my point, regardless of if YOU have found it MORE profitable for you and your company.
It`s an interesting discussion and i was curious to find your method brings you in more sales.
Good luck and keep doing what your doing...but i wont be buying from you lol!!!!
Cheers Mike

KarlWarren

HighHopes,

you're right, in that what works for you, works for you - and what works for someone else, works for them...

One thing that's not been touched upon is the need to "train your customers"

Based on your last response, you've been "trained" to expect a 30 day money back guarantee - this is common in the MMO arena. Prior to entering this arena, I would wager that you wouldn't have expected such a policy, and that you'd have been happy with a more traditional, bricks 'n mortar refund policy.

A business, and I mean "business" and not someone who is "making money online", must conduct themselves in a way which will:

Decrease costs
Increase satisfaction
Increase profits
Increase turnover

A "no questions asked refund policy" might work nicely for ClickBank - which, in turn, has trained the majority of MMO vendors to do the same. However, it's not the ONLY way.

Risk reversal isn't JUST about offering a refund... it COULD also be as simple as ensuring you offer SUPPORT to buyers.

balara

This has been one of the best threads I've followed in a long time. Some jolly good info that everyone wanting to "make it" online can benefit from.
Thanks to everyone for some great education and thanks to the Warrior forum moderators for letting all of these posts through.
Cheers to all
Veronica

BIG Mike

And that's your perogative - as a consumer, I wouldn't expect you to change your mind.

There's nothing wrong with your approach - when I was much younger I ran a very successful mobile locksmith service for years that way. One core difference though is that your company is a service organization while mine produces and sells specific products.

[quote]I am afraid i go with most of the warriors means of selling that i have come accross, that is 30 day money back qurantee...and that`s my point, regardless of if YOU have found it MORE profitable for you and your company.[/qoute]

What I highlight in red is what I emphatically disagree with and genuinely believe it's a common mistake on your part.

I'm not suggesting that you should offer a No Refund Policy as I do. I'm also not suggesting that offering a 30 day money back guarantee isn't a smart business move.

What I am suggesting is that in business, testing is what is really important. Depending on the underlying circumstances, I've rarely found it wise to simple "Follow the Herd" as it were unless accredited, empirical data demonstrated otherwise.

I learned a very long time ago in my offline professional life that rarely does the data support a lot of common thoughts about various aspects of business. It's never as black and white as we start out thinking and there are never any true absolutes in business.

No problem - I don't expect every potential customer to agree with the policies we set. And I honestly don't fault you for being cautious

Floyd Fisher

Here's my thinking.

If there is any remote chance of a normal person getting sucked into something they didn't know they were signing up for, then the law usually sides with the consumer.

A prechecked box almost anyone can miss (and this guy obviously did) to me falls under that. If it isn't illegal, it should be.

I hope he files, and I hope he wins. These guys should be hung.