INEEDHITS

14 years ago

This is why the FTC started to crack down, I for one welcome it.

In your case I would do a chargeback with your credit card company, don't let them get away with it.

Regards

John

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seasoned

14 years ago

Highhopes,

You are NOT responsible for it! You did NOT order it. At least in the US, it is illegal and you can do a chargeback. Any US payment processor should ALSO see things that way and act accordingly. GO to the payment processor, if there is one, and ask for a refund. Failing that, try going to your bank and ddoing a chargeback.

Steve

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KarlWarren

14 years ago

Up until I went through the process (in order to advise you how to take it further) - I was going to tell you that you should take legal advice and threaten action...

that was UNTIL I went through the process...

All the services on the 2nd stage of the order that are ticked are right there, and a line underneath them summarising the total cost.

Then, there's also a summary on the right hand side of the page giving you the cost breakdown.

Now, all I can imagine is that you were in a rush when you ordered and didn't read what you were purchasing.

I'm not saying this to be an ass, but it isn't a SCAM, nor is it UNDERHANDED because those items are clearly visible. I don't personally like the "you have to uncheck these options" part and wouldn't do it in my own business, but, that's just me.

Chances are, you'll lose a chargeback request.

[edited to add] On second thoughts, in my opinion it is a little underhanded - and I don't condone the business practice. But, I don't think you've got much room for recourse.

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highhopes 14 years ago

This is exactly right Karl...to be honest i thought i would try out this little feature of getting more traffic claim $9.99 and did not pay too much attention to the page processing items, because i have never come accross trhis personally and I suppose should have taken more notice.
however, I quite liked the website and the way it promoted various features to use, ( untill I got some feed back from other warriors on past posts)

I have an off line business and sometimes you have to bite the bullet and go over board to appease your customers which i have done a few times.
I also do extra work for my clients as well and this really ensures a good relationship and appreciation from them.

Like i said i may write this off as a bad experience...I certainly would not use them again by virtue of their general attitude " oh yeah buddy read the contract, terms and conditions!
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KarlWarren

14 years ago

I'm VERY surprised at the number of people in this post who have suggested doing a chargeback based on the circumstances...

Especially since, in your original post you actually stated that it is your mistake.

Highhopes, this is not aimed at you - because, from what I've read about your attitude and the way you've handled this, you're pretty awesome in my book...

This is aimed at those who didn't do any further investigation before offering their "chargeback advice"

Since when did not being able to get a refund because you rushed into a purchase and didn't fully read what you're signing up for become a reason for doing a chargeback?

Kindest regards,
Karl.

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Product Developer

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KarlWarren

Since when did not being able to get a refund because you rushed into a purchase and didn't fully read what you're signing up for become a reason for doing a chargeback?

Karl to answer that...

Since the company he purchased from refused to amend his payment to the correct amount and provide "only" the service he was looking to buy.

Yes he made a mistake, however that does not give any company the right to refuse to amend the purchase and not issue a refund.

As Steve has pointed out with regard to US law, in the UK we have a cooling-off period "the long distance selling rule" which states:

"The consumer can cancel the agreement up to seven days after the goods are delivered or the service contract is agreed."

So Ray (highhopes) if I were you I would do a charge back immediately as the company has refused to put your order right.

Any decent firm would of refunded you the money minus the $9.99 for the services you wanted to take.

Alex

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highhopes 14 years ago

It certainly shook me up and to pay more attention to what you are signing up to...the warriors obviously feel as I do about the ethics of it...Ok they have chosen to program the shopping page fully checked up...so you have to uncheck those items you dont wish to proceed with.

In my estimation it should be the other way around...you check the items manually!
I wonder how many people miss this? Or am I the only dumwit? lol!

What made me feel indignant was the fact they maybe could refund but choose not to and this is in text form on that shopping page ( i missed that too Dumwit)
Even though in my case no services will be applied as i have cancelled them.

Yeah Karl the credit / debit card chargeback would be null and void as it was my own fault for not noticing what I had bought in to.

To add, some of the services they offer are already being undertaken by some warriors.

Some easy money they earned there without lifting a finger.

Cheers you all and please watch your step and thank you all for your valued comments
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Floyd Fisher

14 years ago

Originally Posted by KarlWarren

I'm VERY surprised at the number of people in this post who have suggested doing a chargeback based on the circumstances...

Especially since, in your original post you actually stated that it is your mistake.

Highhopes, this is not aimed at you - because, from what I've read about your attitude and the way you've handled this, you're pretty awesome in my book...

This is aimed at those who didn't do any further investigation before offering their "chargeback advice"

Since when did not being able to get a refund because you rushed into a purchase and didn't fully read what you're signing up for become a reason for doing a chargeback?

Kindest regards,
Karl.

Karl:

Research 'hidden forced continuity' and see what this is all about.

Assuming his story is true, what happened is illegal as all hell. He shouldn't have to check for mysterious checked boxes, he should simply be checking off the stuff he wishes to purchase.

He should report this to the authorities asap.

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KarlWarren

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

Karl:

Research 'hidden forced continuity' and see what this is all about.

Assuming his story is true, what happened is illegal as all hell. He shouldn't have to check for mysterious checked boxes, he should simply be checking off the stuff he wishes to purchase.

He should report this to the authorities asap.

Hi Floyd,

if you notice from my later post, neither the continuity is hidden, nor the checked boxes mysterious. It might look like I'm defending INH, I'm not - I'm merely pointing out facts, as per my own investigations after reading this thread.

If you go through the order process (without entering your card details when prompted) you'll see for yourself.

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whateverpedia

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

Karl:

Research 'hidden forced continuity' and see what this is all about.

Assuming his story is true, what happened is illegal as all hell. He shouldn't have to check for mysterious checked boxes, he should simply be checking off the stuff he wishes to purchase.

He should report this to the authorities asap.

He can report it to as many authorities as he wants. He can file whatever legal claims he wants. He doesn't have a leg to stand on.

You are wrong, it is not illegal as hell, it is 100% legally correct. The "mysterious" checked boxes may not be the best in terms of customer service, however they are not illegal.

Caveat emptor applies. He was told what he was getting, and how much it was going to cost. All above board, and transparent.

They may give him a refund to "make him go away", however they are not obliged to.

See my post above.

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Floyd Fisher

14 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

He can report it to as many authorities as he wants. He can file whatever legal claims he wants. He doesn't have a leg to stand on.

You are wrong, it is not illegal as hell, it is 100% legally correct. The "mysterious" checked boxes may not be the best in terms of customer service, however they are not illegal.

Caveat emptor applies. He was told what he was getting, and how much it was going to cost. All above board, and transparent.

They may give him a refund to "make him go away", however they are not obliged to.

See my post above.

Here's my thinking.

If there is any remote chance of a normal person getting sucked into something they didn't know they were signing up for, then the law usually sides with the consumer.

A prechecked box almost anyone can miss (and this guy obviously did) to me falls under that. If it isn't illegal, it should be.

I hope he files, and I hope he wins. These guys should be hung.

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highhopes

14 years ago

Valid point Karl, i have in my short time online noticed The marketing tips crowd, Derek Ghel offer this, and others.

Originally Posted by KarlWarren

HighHopes,

you're right, in that what works for you, works for you - and what works for someone else, works for them...

One thing that's not been touched upon is the need to "train your customers"

Based on your last response, you've been "trained" to expect a 30 day money back guarantee - this is common in the MMO arena. Prior to entering this arena, I would wager that you wouldn't have expected such a policy, and that you'd have been happy with a more traditional, bricks 'n mortar refund policy.

A business, and I mean "business" and not someone who is "making money online", must conduct themselves in a way which will:

Decrease costs
Increase satisfaction
Increase profits
Increase turnover

A "no questions asked refund policy" might work nicely for ClickBank - which, in turn, has trained the majority of MMO vendors to do the same. However, it's not the ONLY way.

Risk reversal isn't JUST about offering a refund... it COULD also be as simple as ensuring you offer SUPPORT to buyers.

Thanks Floyd, See it proves my point, there are people who feel that injustice in a sense, even though it may not be illegal!

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

Here's my thinking.

If there is any remote chance of a normal person getting sucked into something they didn't know they were signing up for, then the law usually sides with the consumer.

A prechecked box almost anyone can miss (and this guy obviously did) to me falls under that. If it isn't illegal, it should be.

I hope he files, and I hope he wins. These guys should be hung.

There's nothing wrong with your approach - when I was much younger I ran a very successful mobile locksmith service for years that way. One core difference though is that your company is a service organization while mine produces and sells specific products.

In fact we dpo the construction work and or the project management. ( design build)
If it is the same in the USA as the UK, The project starts on site day one....four weeks later application has been made for an interim payment, two weeks later funds are paid.
The construction industry is unique in the sense you take all the risk before you see a red cent!
Last year we had £61,350 payment after 6 weeks on a pub conversion.
To be fair to Mike, I do take the cash up front situation, if offered. But this is only domestic schemes and not controlled through a proffesional body and few and far between

[quote]I am afraid i go with most of the warriors means of selling that i have come accross, that is 30 day money back qurantee...and that`s my point, regardless of if YOU have found it MORE profitable for you and your company.[/qoute]

What I highlight in red is what I emphatically disagree with and genuinely believe it's a common mistake on your part.

All the warriors i have dealt with have offered the cash back, no quibles for whatever reason...not sure about other warriors of course!

I'm not suggesting that you should offer a No Refund Policy as I do. I'm also not suggesting that offering a 30 day money back guarantee isn't a smart business move.

Here is a link about the high priest of "Risk Reversal"
This guy has to be the best in the business...If you think you know it all and you have tested up to the hilt and are getting , well not bad results, Jay steps in and blows your marketing ideas out of the water!

There are so many people, marketeers out there who think they know it all...

Jay Abraham: Success Stories

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BIG Mike

Banned 14 years ago

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Product Developer

14 years ago

Big Mike

Whether the boxes are ticked or he read the agreement or not are irrelevant, in the UK he has the right to a refund for any reason when buying online.

The office of fair trading states that companies who sell good or services via the Internet, digital television, mail order, phone or fax, are entitled to a seven day cooling period at which they can cancel and receive their money back in full within those seven days.

The law in the US may differ however this is the law in the UK.

And as someone from the UK purchasing from the Internet in the UK, I would be more inclined to "not put up with it and get my money back" by any means and if that was via a chargeback then so be it.

Distance Selling Regulations

If you sell goods or services to consumers by:

the internet
digital television
mail order, including catalogue shopping
phone
fax

then you need to know about the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000.
The key features of the regulations are:

you must give consumers clear information including details of the goods or services offered, delivery arrangements and payment, the supplier's details and the consumer's cancellation right before they buy (known as prior information)
you must also provide this information in writing
the consumer has a cooling-off period of seven working days.

"consumer's cancellation right" must be in accordance with the long distance selling rule (you can't just make these up, there is a minimum legal requirement)

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BIG Mike

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Product Developer

14 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Was this a UK company?

Big Mike

No It wasn't a UK company however the FTC for the US - states that consumers purchasing online have "three days" (as opposed to the UKs seven days) to get a refund in full with any purchase over $25 and in his case they were charging $99!

So he's still entitled to get he's money back alright, regardless of yours or anyone else's opinion "that is what he's entitled too".

The Cooling-Off Rule: When and How to Cancel a Sale

If you buy something at a store and later change your mind, you may not be able to return the merchandise. But if you buy an item in your home or at a location that is not the seller's permanent place of business, you have the option. The Federal Trade Commission's (FTC's) Cooling-Off Rule gives you three days to cancel purchases of $25 or more. Under the Cooling-Off Rule, your right to cancel for a full refund extends until midnight of the third business day after the sale.

If You Cancel

If you cancel your purchase, the seller has 10 days to:

Cancel and return any promissory note or other negotiable instrument you signed;
refund all your money and tell you whether any product you still have will be picked up; and
return any trade-in.

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BIG Mike

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whateverpedia

14 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

This is an Australian company

Australian law states that the company is only obliged to give a refund if the goods/services are faulty. This does not apply to making a bad choice (such as wrong colour, change of mind, etc.).

If you simply changed your mind, they are only obliged to give a credit note for further purchases.

By the sound of it the Aussie company have done enough to cover their asses from what Big Mike described going through the sales process.

When you requested a refund they offered you a credit note against further purchases. They are right, and everyone else who said "chargeback" (including my fellow Aussie* above) is 100%, bone dead wrong.

They told you what you were ordering, and how much it was going to cost, so I'm afraid it's caveat emptor.

*Article Excellence not balara

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highhopes

14 years ago

Absolutely, it`s not so much what they deem to put into their terms and conditions, it`s the CUSTOMER SATISFACTION policy that will give them a good name and enhance their reputaion and thereby recieve more referals!

Originally Posted by cjmo75

I agree that my situation was a little different and after looking at the INeedHits site, I have to say it is rather transparent. That being said, I believe the issue here is still customer service and satisfaction. If the customer bought something other they had wanted, yes, it is their mistake. However, the company should be gracious enough to refund the money of someone who bought something from them by accident and doesn't have the least bit of interest in keeping it. If they have been in business for 12 years, then they should be confident and secure enough to not force people to keep something they don't want.

On the other hand, if you go into a brick and mortar store like Target or Wal-Mart and make a purchase then realize it is the wrong thing or you just don't like it, they'll take it back but only give you store credit. By doing that, they are meeting you halfway. If INEEDHITS did in fact issue a refund for the $9.99 and offer a credit for the rest, I guess they did what any brick and mortar store would do in the same situation.

I know that I said to go for a chargeback initially, but after thinking about it a little more, I 'd have to say that have done what was required of them. I still think, however, that as a matter of customer service and keeping everyone happy, they should just refund the money. If it were up to me, I would want stores like Target and Wal-Mart to do that as well. I'm not sure what the policy is for a defective product, but I think once you remove the product from the store, all you'll get is credit upon returning it.

I have always stated it was a mistake and perhaps they would look favourably on my request to refund for the services i did not require.

Originally Posted by Product Developer

Mike

This is absolutely true through the long distance selling laws which state:

The protection includes:

The right to receive clear information about goods and services before deciding to buy;
Confirmation of this information in writing;
A cooling off period of seven working days in which the consumer can withdraw from the contract;
Protection from credit card fraud.

In this case he is saying he never had clear information with regard to what he was buying. And the law says he has seven days to withdraw from the contract...

He also notified the company that the service and charge was not what he had thought and gave them chance to amend the purchase to what he thought he was getting "in writing" to the company and asked them to put it right" and they refused.

Well said Veronica

Originally Posted by balara

Big Mike, I feel that you are being a bit harsh on High Hopes. Everyone makes mistakes, even you! For starters, statcounter.com is not an Australian company...it's Irish (miles away from Aus.)...and hasn't been around for about 12 years. OK, so these mistakes may
seem trite unless you say, as you did, that you "dug a bit deeper" to come up with the "being around for about 12 years" bit, and how much due diligence did you do before labelling statcounter.com to be Australian Company?
No doubt High Hopes wishes to heck that he had read things a little better before jumping in, but that error of judgement should not deprive him of any rights that he may have in regards to seeking a refund. Nor should he be slammed for trying to do so. It's all a part of the capitalist system.
Having said all that, many of your comments Big Mike, have given all of us something to think about and I thank you for that, because I am one who is a bit too hasty sometimes and jump in without reading the fine print.

Cheers
Veronica

I thought it was a stealth ploy to perhaps gain more sales knowing that maybe a percentage of people would not notice in their haste to sign up to A service. I remember the night well I was tired and the site had such a lot of information on it, I quess i had info indigestion!

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

If it's not trickery, then why does the site feel the need to pre-check items that you did not intend to order? I think that to be very clear and transparent, you ... the buyer ... should be the one to check off the items that you wish to purchase ... not the seller. That is trickery in my book and it's apparent that it works for people who are not expecting it or this thread wouldn't exist.

Well at least i get a new description " Bonehead" lol, No I have not stated it is a scam Mike...see you have got something wrong here. If this was a legal issue i could get you for defamation of character ( I laugh out loud)

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

What Karl said - there's no trickery. Believe me, if there were I'd be right there saying chargeback too.

It's not my way of doing things either, but it clearly wasn't trickery. The OP was in a hurry and made a costly mistake.

I have a no refund policy on everything now and it's out there in plain sight right above the order button. Same font. Same format. Clear as a bell. Guess what?

Some bonehead demands a refund and calls me a scammer for adding the no refund policy after they made their purchase.

Not offering a refund, if clearly stated is not trickery and I can't understand why you would think it deserves bad press. If you disagree with the policy, then you don't buy - but it's their business to set their policies (as long as they're legal of course).

This would be the defining issue, I agree, give back the cash and they would stand high in my big book of better business practices! ( they dont have to as has been pointed out) He smiles .

Originally Posted by cjmo75

As far as I'm concerned, the company should be good enough to refund the money. The fact that the tick marks were already checked and that they were informed that the consumer wasn't happy and decided to ignore it are actions of a desperate company trying to stay afloat. I, too, welcome changes to come. Too many of these online companies word their products in a confusing manner or hide monthly charges in a confusing manner.

Just yesterday, I was two clicks away from buying an affiliate website set up that seemed to be $99.99 up front set up fee, and $3.95 per month thereafter to pay for hosting. Sure enough, hidden in the fine print was another $49.95 monthly charge that went to the company for "consulting fees and payment processing", which is completely ridiculous. They were also taking 30% of each sale. I would have easily agreed to the one-time set up fee, the $3.95, and the 30%. It would have been worth it as the site was beautiful and the product was good.

Had I made that click, I immediately would have been charged $153.85 plus a re-curring fee of $53.90 every month instead of $3.95. The way that these companies word these things and hide the pages that explain what you are really paying for is ridiculous. Thank heavens I looked at the total amount (which was in very small print all the way at the bottom of the page-very convenient for them). I agree with those above who said "chargeback".

Mike, let me put my thoughts to this another way.
All that is said previously , I perhaps would like to point out my experinces in dealing with fellow Warriors.
My experiences with my purchases from them has been fantasic on the whole.
(1) They give a 30 day trial and refunds if not acceptable
(2) They help you every step of the way, and go beyond their remit to give help if you are stuck on something.
(3) This make me want to purchase from them again and again.

Now this is all i want to point out here, if Ineedhits conducted their business model on the outstanding Warrior model of business their would not be need for this thread.
Clearly, there are disgruntled Warriors here voicing their opnions on my behalf, and i thank you all for your comments.
This said, it does show that people have an opinion that ineedhits should change their company policy and that opinion is valid even though if it only represents say 50%
of the warriors on this post.

I dont think i am chidish if i have an opinion about the policies about a company i dont happen to agree with ( " it`s time to grow up")
Let me ask you a question Mike;
Do you sell anything, and if so what are YOUR company policies on refunds?

It is a lesson learned and I think my immediate thoughts are , yes i will go back there and use up my $99.99 credit. Any ideas what you warriors?

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

Why shouldn't he have paid more attention? I just now went over there through the process and it's perfectly obvious what the total price is, that the payement of $9.99 is per month and so forth. Nothing was hidden and it was as simple as either unticking the extras or removing them from the cart prior to making payment.

Why is it that when someone makes a mistake someone else should be held accountable?

It took me all of 3 minutes to check out the process, see that no refunds were available and bail out at that point. Their Terms of Service are actually really well written and perfectly clear/easy to understand.

What I think stinks is this sense of, "I can't be responsible for myself even though I'm an adult". Well folks, it's time to grow up - no one forced him to jump into it, no one forced him to be in a hurry and no one hid anything from him. It was all right there in plain sight.

We can commiserate with him because we've all made goofy mistakes at one time or another, but that doesn't make him right or entitle him to label these folks scammers. They clearly indicate in their TOS that they don't do refunds on most stuff and also list all of the various fees charged for cancellation of certain services.

Until now I never heard of them but after looking at their site, reading the OP and his admission, I think it's reasonable to defend them.

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BIG Mike Banned 14 years ago

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- highhopes 14 years ago
  
  No I know really Mike, this is only light banter anyway, nothing personal, that`s fine.
  
  Interestingly, i have always understood a money back quarantee increases sales, risk reversal. Now you have the direct opposite view, but all the Gurus out there have this I believe.
  We speak as we find and this is my understanding.
  Now given a choice between your company policies and another selling the same product with a refund policy in place I would choose the other.
  
  You may perhaps double your sales if you were more in line with what the Gurus are doing???
  
  I copied this from a USA information site on good business practices.
  
  Why do you need a refund policy?
  
  To increase your conversion rate
  Whaa? Having a customer-friendly refund policy leads to a higher conversion rate?
  
  Yup, who would have thought....
  
  There are two reasons for this.
  
  When people come to your site, they will make a very quick decision about how credible you are. That credibility will be a huge factor in determining whether they have the confidence to buy from you. Things like how transparent it is who you are (company information), terms and conditions (how thorough you are) and the professionalism of your design all contribute to this decision. A great list of easy steps you can take can be found on the wiki page about a Stanford study on credibility.
  
  Secondly, and perhaps more important, your refund policy is an important factor in the risk your customer perceives of their impending (hopefully) purchase. The more you can reduce their perceived risk, the greater the chance of them buying. This is sometimes call Risk Reversal and the great Mindvalley Labs guys have an excellent explanation of it on their blog. They actually offer a double money back guarantee on a product priced over $1000!
  Its been proven many times that if you offer a great refund policy, your sales/conversion will improve by a bigger factor than the amount of refunds you might have to give out. Zappos anyone?
  
  What about your refund policy?
  
  A couple of last things to consider when deciding your refund policy. Firstly, if you have a hard-nosed policy, that tends to create an impression of what kind of business you are. Obviously, you want a positive customer experience so they will tell people how great you were... word of mouth marketing. Secondly, if you are not willing to offer a easy refund, how much does this really cost. Chances are you will frequently get involved in back and forth emails which take time. How much was that time worth, and would it have cost less to simply issue the refund?
  
  Regards,
  
  Thanks
  
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  highhopes 14 years ago
  
  Well Proffessor Mike, i think you have a model of business that works for you and good luck to you and it, i mean that.
  however, we speak as we find and my opinion is I would always go for a company offering risk reversal, plain and simple.
  
  I have a succsesful offline project management company and know this works in my running of the business.
  Pandering to my clients producing quality results on a formula that they do not pay until they are totally satisfied....including the little sweetners thrown in for good measure.
  I dont advertise my company it is ALL word of mouth sales.
  
  I am afraid i go with most of the warriors means of selling that i have come accross, that is 30 day money back qurantee...and that`s my point, regardless of if YOU have found it MORE profitable for you and your company.
  It`s an interesting discussion and i was curious to find your method brings you in more sales.
  Good luck and keep doing what your doing...but i wont be buying from you lol!!!!
  Cheers Mike
  
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zerofill

10 years ago

Originally Posted by Product Developer

No It wasn't a UK company however the FTC for the US - states that consumers purchasing online have "three days" (as opposed to the UKs seven days) to get a refund in full with any and all purchases over $25 and in his case they were charging $99!

Heh... if it is a service you are selling and the service has already been performed... good luck with that one. Cause I would tell them to f'off. Not that it is the case here, but I don't see how that can hold up with any purchase.

So, if that is true... everyone selling services, make sure you don't perform the service until 3 days are up lol.

I'm sure there is probably a bit more in depth information that is being left out on that "three day" rule. I don't see how that can be a "blanket" rule for "anything and everything" online.

EDIT:
Blah...nevermind... I see this was some resurrected dead thread from 2010. Read the thread and then realize that... hurr durr. That and I noticed Big Mike made my point as well earlier on.

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Product Developer

14 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

But your statement in red above is absolutely not true.

Mike

This is absolutely true through the long distance selling laws which state:

The protection includes:

The right to receive clear information about goods and services before deciding to buy;
Confirmation of this information in writing;
A cooling off period of seven working days in which the consumer can withdraw from the contract;
Protection from credit card fraud.

In this case he is saying he never had clear information with regard to what he was buying. And the law says he has seven days to withdraw from the contract...

He also notified the company that the service and charge was not what he had thought and gave them chance to amend the purchase to what he thought he was getting "in writing" to the company and asked them to put it right" and they refused.

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BIG Mike

Banned 14 years ago

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Product Developer

14 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

No - you're only copying and pasting the bullet points that support your argument...go read the entire law along with the update to it and you'll see what I mean.

There are many exclusions to this law depending on whether a product or service was presented, whether he agreed to immediate service (he did) and then section 13, which covers the rest. In effect, he probably waived his right to notification in writing by agreeing to an immediate service.

Again, there is a lot more to this law that your bullet points. You need to read and understand it in its entirety - not just the portions you think cover him.

[EDIT] Also note that this law is only valid in the UK for UK businesses - its based on EU regs but they do warn consumers about Distance Buying from foreign countries and that the laws of those countries apply. [/EDIT]

No - I understand the law fully...

And in this instance, under these circumstances in the UK he is entitled to a refund.

I know how the small claims process works in the UK.

I also have friends who are magistrates and they assure me that if something like this went to a small claims court in the UK, they side with the consumer especially when the consumer have written to the company asking them to put the order right within the seven days!

You can read all you like Mike in this situation you're wrong when it comes to this situation in the UK.

Then again... you knew that UK law was irrelevant when you asked what country the company were in, some posts later and told me - that my statement is absolutely not true.

"You go talk to a magistrate who sits in a UK small claims courts week in week out and ask them"

Clearly you already knew full well the company were not in the UK - yet still felt the need to read up on UK law just to try and prove me wrong...

and then you posted this some posts later:
[EDIT] Also note that this law is only valid in the UK for UK businesses - its based on EU regs but they do warn consumers about Distance Buying from foreign countries and that the laws of those countries apply. [/EDIT]

So there was no need to keep banging on about it then was there!

Even though the first post I made was in response to Karl (Since when did not being able to get a refund because you rushed into a purchase and didn't fully read what you're signing up for become a reason for doing a chargeback?)

If it were me I would want a refund and UK law allows it - so people have the right to do it. That is my argument!

In the UK if he had contacted the company in writing and asked them to put it right within the seven days and they refused, the law is on his side. So if the firm don't play ball then - chargeback.

And I stand by what I said which was:

(The law in the US may differ however this is the law in the UK.

And as someone from the UK purchasing from the Internet in the UK, I would be more inclined to "not put up with it and get my money back" by any means and if that was via a chargeback then so be it.)

You said "suck it up, take the loss and learn from it"

I personally wouldn't... if the company didn't put things right that I thought they should have - regardless, I would do the chargeback and get my money.

And if the company wanted to take me to a small claims court then so be it.

Because that's how it works when I buy something here (the UK)

Just the same as when I buy something from a brick and mortar high street shop and I decide to returned the goods within the time frame on the receipt I would get my money back.

Not store credit like the US as cjmo75 mentions.

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BIG Mike

Banned 14 years ago

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Product Developer

14 years ago

[quote]

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

If this company was in the UK I believe they would be excluded under the law as I read it. Once again, I am not a lawyer, but their simplified explanation of how this law applies makes it obvious to me.

The law in the UK isn't all black and white as I'm sure is the same in your country.

Distance Buyers in the UK are not just automatically entitled to refund or a 7 day cooling off period in all circumstances. If you know the law, then you know this to be true. I'm simply repeating what I have read about it.

I never said in all circumstances - however in this instance and in (highhopes) circumstances in the UK he would be entitled to a refund.

I read up on this UK law today because A) I had the free time and B) I get tired of people throwing this one clause out there as if it were the entire law. It's not...

I never said it was the entire law - again merely pointing out in (highhopes) circumstances in the UK he would be entitled to a refund. So he is within his rights to chargeback.

At the time I asked the question I did not know they were an Australian company - I was "Talking out loud" and went and checked myself.

This is the reason why absolutely NO ONE should ever listen to or repeat legal advice they receive in a public forum. When in doubt, consult with an attorney who specializes in that area of law.

Agreed no one should listen to legal advice from a forum.

I stand by my earlier comment in that I believe you are wrong.

You can believe all you like, I don't particularly care what you think, I know full well in these circumstances, with written notice to the company and within the seven days in the UK he would be entitled to his money back.

Fact! Not just my opinion but from previous experience and a magistrate who works in small claims also that this is not wrong.

So we'll agree to disagree on this one Mike

It's late I'm off...

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

I think it's unethical and it stinks to high heaven whether or not he should have paid more attention. Particularly since he doesn't provide a refund. He obviously knows and counts on the fact that a lot of people aren't suspecting to have a sh*tload of products that they didn't order directly tacked on to the product that they did order.

Publishing this here so everyone knows what a scummy little company Ineedhits.com is good so everyone will be aware of what they are getting into.

If they won't provide a refund, I'd have no hesitation to do a chargeback ... none at all.

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BIG Mike

Banned 14 years ago

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by BIG Mike

It's easy to say "Chargeback", but if you're in business online, just wait until you reach the point where every Tom, Dick and Harry who buys from you come up with, "I didn't see it so I should get a refund or do a chargeback" type comments. Believe me, you'll change your mind in a hurry.

I wouldn't change my mind at all. My business practices don't include trying to trick people into buying something. Any company that uses trickery and does not provide a refund will get what they deserve ... bad press like this and chargebacks.

I rarely have a refund request and when I do, it is usually from a scammer that is "pretending" that they did not make the charge. This guy is choosing lack of transparency and trickery as his business model.

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KarlWarren

14 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

I rarely have a refund request and when I do, it is usually from a scammer that is "pretending" that they did not make the charge. This guy is choosing lack of transparency and trickery as his business model.

Nope, go to ineedhits.com - click the ad on the front page, create a new account and tell me what part of the order process (up to but not including putting in your cc details) is trickery?

Everything is there, in plain sight - not in small print like some companies.

Like I said, it's not the way I choose to do business - BUT, it's far from trickery.

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by KarlWarren

Nope, go to ineedhits.com - click the ad on the front page, create a new account and tell me what part of the order process (up to but not including putting in your cc details) is trickery?

Everything is there, in plain sight - not in small print like some companies.

Like I said, it's not the way I choose to do business - BUT, it's far from trickery.

If it's not trickery, then why does the site feel the need to pre-check items that you did not intend to order? I think that to be very clear and transparent, you ... the buyer ... should be the one to check off the items that you wish to purchase ... not the seller. That is trickery in my book and it's apparent that it works for people who are not expecting it or this thread wouldn't exist.

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balara

14 years ago

Big Mike, I feel that you are being a bit harsh on High Hopes. Everyone makes mistakes, even you! For starters, statcounter.com is not an Australian company...it's Irish (miles away from Aus.)...and hasn't been around for about 12 years. OK, so these mistakes may
seem trite unless you say, as you did, that you "dug a bit deeper" to come up with the "being around for about 12 years" bit, and how much due diligence did you do before labelling statcounter.com to be Australian Company?
No doubt High Hopes wishes to heck that he had read things a little better before jumping in, but that error of judgement should not deprive him of any rights that he may have in regards to seeking a refund. Nor should he be slammed for trying to do so. It's all a part of the capitalist system.
Having said all that, many of your comments Big Mike, have given all of us something to think about and I thank you for that, because I am one who is a bit too hasty sometimes and jump in without reading the fine print.

Cheers
Veronica

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Mohammad Afaq

14 years ago

It is very very sad. I have been using Stat Counter for about 2 years now and I thought they were great guys to go business with, I was wrong.

So now, do you plan on letting them get away with it?

Don't, file a chargeback with your credit card company and get their asses to pay you the money back.

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BIG Mike Banned 14 years ago

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- R Hagel 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by BIG Mike
  
  It wasn't StatCounter - it was ineedhits.com
  
  The original poster does mention(and link to) StatCounter in the first line of his post. It's confusing because ineedhits.com is mentioned in the title and elsewhere. It appears they're related.
  
  ***
  
  BTW, I ran through the sign up process at StatCounter (the link given in the OP), and they did have all that stuff pre-checked. That sucks. BUT... it was very transparent. Not only was my shopping cart total clearly visible during the entire process, it asked me to read and agree to the TOS before completing the purchase.
  
  So yeah -- pre-checking stuff is no good. But I wouldn't file a chargeback if I missed it... simply because it wasn't hidden at all. I could only blame myself for not taking enough care to confirm my shopping cart before finalizing the order.
  
  ...Which btw, people should do that anyway -- a little glitch can easily put two items in your shopping cart when you meant to just add one. I've even had that happen at places like Amazon. But there too, accidentally ordering two products would be my fault -- not Amazon's.
  
  cheers,
  Becky
  
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balara

14 years ago

Big Mike,
I apologise for my stuff-up about which company was actually under discussion. You are correct in that ineedhits.com is an Aussie company.

The Consumer Law in Australia is regulated by the ACCC. Companies in Aus. are required to comply with ACCC regulations of course. Issues relating to consumers are set out under specific headings and conciliation is always encouraged when consumer/retailer problems arise.

With regard to the business practices of ineedhits.com, it appears that they are following ACCC requirements in relation to their policy on refunds. Nevertheless, there is always room for dialogue and compromise in the interests of good customer service.

I realise that what I have written above is not the issue here and is not at the heart of Big Mike's frustration.

What I have benefited most from this thread, is a new awareness of how carefully we should read the fine print before we make a purchase, and how important it is to keep emotion out of the transaction.

Mike, I still think you were a bit rough on High Hopes, but by gosh, you have done a jolly good job of providing information on the mindset consumers need to have when entering in to a purchase contract. Thank you heaps for that.

Veronica

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Anil Pandey

14 years ago

I know this may be off the point, but does INEEDHITS Search Engine Marketing Services | SEO Services - Search Engine Optimization | Website Traffic Specialists | Free SEO Tools deliver?

I am looking to use their "submit your site to 300 search engines" option costing $2.99 (per site) for 5 sites so would be grateful for any advice on their efficiency.

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Anil

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pearsonbrown

14 years ago

I don't really want to intervene in this debate but I need to point something legal out.

Under EU legislation, a transaction on the Internet is considered to take place in the country where the customer is. So in this case, the transaction is considered to take place in the UK, not Australia, and UK consumer law applies.

Obviously Australian (and US) law is different on this and I suppose at some point we'll see a test case.

Pearson

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KarlWarren

14 years ago

Just one thing...

at no point in the thread did the OP suggest it was a scam, nor claim that it wasn't their mistake. It's the resulting "this is a scam" "do a chargeback" "oh, how dare they" posts that I've been responding to.

The OP went about it the right way in my opinion...

1) Realised they'd made a buying error
2) Approached the company for a refund and put their case forward

(at this point, me, I'd have probably given a refund due to buyer error, but that's the company's prerogative - assuming it's within the law)

3) Was advised they would not receive a refund (as per the company's own principles)
4) Took it on the chin as a lesson to be careful when buying
5) Advised others to be careful, so that they don't make the same mistake

Kindest regards,
Karl.

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KarlWarren

14 years ago

HighHopes,

you're right, in that what works for you, works for you - and what works for someone else, works for them...

One thing that's not been touched upon is the need to "train your customers"

Based on your last response, you've been "trained" to expect a 30 day money back guarantee - this is common in the MMO arena. Prior to entering this arena, I would wager that you wouldn't have expected such a policy, and that you'd have been happy with a more traditional, bricks 'n mortar refund policy.

A business, and I mean "business" and not someone who is "making money online", must conduct themselves in a way which will:

Decrease costs
Increase satisfaction
Increase profits
Increase turnover

A "no questions asked refund policy" might work nicely for ClickBank - which, in turn, has trained the majority of MMO vendors to do the same. However, it's not the ONLY way.

Risk reversal isn't JUST about offering a refund... it COULD also be as simple as ensuring you offer SUPPORT to buyers.

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balara

14 years ago

This has been one of the best threads I've followed in a long time. Some jolly good info that everyone wanting to "make it" online can benefit from.
Thanks to everyone for some great education and thanks to the Warrior forum moderators for letting all of these posts through.
Cheers to all
Veronica

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cypherslock

14 years ago

I'm the thing that EATS sheep.

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highhopes 14 years ago

Ha ha ha, I do too! ( pass the mint sauce please!)

Originally Posted by cypherslock

I'm the thing that EATS sheep.

Big Mike v Jay Abraham....hmmmmm interesting duel. i wonder who would come out on top if you gave the public at large the vote?

Sheep in the herd? It`s the sheep that look for the pen of safety when it becomes a buying issue...so Jay and all the ones that advocate this concept of selling to the sheep ! that`s right Mike the masses, the sheep, sheep who need the safety net because they dont like taking risks...this is why in my estimation the "risk reversal" works...I have proved it in a model fine tuned for my business.

As for me being a sheep? well not so far as my business is concerned.

I dont think i blindly follow anyone Mike. I read all about Jay Abraham and how he turned around different business models from software companies to construction companies with different means / methods to suit each business, plus tons of refferals with scores of business owners.

We do have differing opinions Mike regarding this but it does not take away the fact we are both succsessful anyway in what we do regardless of which path we tread.
I have respect for you because you are well known in the forum and have generated values for your customers. I have found this topic quite interesting and not found it a waste of time, but an interesting insight into the way peoples minds work by virtue of their well found and tested business models.
Cheers all, if this is the last post.P.S. forgive the typos
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