Doctore

Anyone have any thoughts on Outsource Force? I've watched a couple videos and have my share of "criticism" but I'll wait until all I see more of the pre launch vids before I go on a rant..

what are your thoughts? I'm sure its going to be another $2,000 plus product.

AzzamS

It is not $2000+ product actually, it is $1,995 LOL
I got an invite as an affiliate and *drum roll* $1000 payout for an affiliate.

[IMG]http://********************/Bt/BN.gif[/IMG]

SirLucius

That's just too much money for someone to tell you how to go about building an outsourcing team. I under the "value" vs. "cost" argument, but c'mon, $2K is a bit ridiculous. I'll enjoy the freeline videos, swipe some ideas from the launch, and continue to work on my own businesses.

maylene

I've watched the three videos so far and find them strikingly similar to the stuff John Jonas has already released for free on his blog. Jonas' PH outsourcing site even gets a nod in this series. That said, there still were quite a few new takeaways, so I will definitely continue to mine what I can and save my $2k for a better investment.

Amanda_Davis

I'm sure there IS really good information in the course (I haven't seen it, nobody has) but just think how much outsourced work you could get for $2k

Doctore

I actually left a comment on the Outsource Force blog suggesting that rather than tell people to NOT use an outsourcing firm, that he provide ways/suggestions to best use a firm. However, it wasn't APPROVED by his moderator..

I understand from his videos that hiring a firm is not what HE likes, but there are times when using a professional outsourcing firm is the better way to go.

For every horror story I've heard about using a firm, I've heard an equal number of horror stories from people who used individual resources. They go "missing" for days, they take on more work than they can handle, etc..

To be honest, his rational for not using a firm just proves to me that he really doesn't truly understand outsourcing. For example, that Live Scribe pen was a neat little toy, but in the real world of outsourcing, you should be creating a solid requirements package, which breaks down each individual requirement so the person can assign the appropriate effort required to each task.

In addition, his failed project would not have happened if he or his firm would have set a clear communication plan that specified clear milestones, and then document alternative courses of action if these milestones were not achieved.

I don't mean to go on a rant here, but in my opinion, a firm or a team of people you put together will have problems regardless.. It's up to you to not only manage the team effectively, and unfortunately not everyone has experience doing this, which results in so many bad experiences with firm, freelancers, etc.

In summary, I fervently believe that going with a firm, or using freelancers to build your own team are both viable options. However, its up to you to do it right and what I dont like is when someone attacks one method just because of their bad experience -- which in my opinion could hvae been avoided with proper project management.

Robert_Rand

Yup. Nothing against Johnny but I think he's going a little too far in ripping replacemyself.com

Brad Callen

I own everything John puts out. It's all quality stuff. What I think the problem here is a couple of things:

1. Because John's so well known in our industry, people expect FAR too much from him, almost to where it's impossible for him to live up to the pedestal that some put him on. Whereas when Mr. Joe New Guy comes out with some latest course called "Murder Your Boss At Work And Then Crap On His Desk", people don't expect much from him, so they buy based on the hype. John doesn't stoop to that level. He creates products based on tried and true principles that will last. I ALWAYS learn something from everyone of them.

2. Because John's stuff is not based on the latest/greatest fads, which some still have their place, (i.e. all that stuff like social bookmarking a 100 billion places) some tend to write off John's stuff saying they can "learn it all in forums" and "it's nothing new". Sure, some of it might not be "new" and that's the whole point. The new/fad stuff adds to a business that's already working GREAT (i.e. making good money), while the stuff John teaches is probably best for those that haven't mastered a certain aspect of their business. His stuff is the kind that you should watch/listen to 100x times until it fully sinks in and you can perfect it all.

I remember when Traffic Secrets was released FOREVER ago and some were saying it didn't teach anything new. And, well, that was partly true, BUT what it did was teach all of the methods that will work amazingly well for a lifetime (i.e. list building the right way)

Anyway, that's my take on Outsource Force. I'll be signing up as always.

And this is just my opinion. I'm sure others will disagree. Afterall, this is a forum and that seems to always happen :-P hehe...

Brad

Simons

The information in the videos are good for anyone unfamiliar with outsourcing.

I agree that not all outsourcing firms are bad, now the market is a little mature, companies have noticed that providing a reliable service is a good USP

All the local search marketing bonanza that's currently underway needs these firms so the market is there.

The same disadvantages apply to individuals. But overall its better for actual quality of output, and you know any bonuses you offer is directly benefiting your employee

If the price tag includes an outsourcing service, which is provided by an outsourcing firm, that would be funny

Amanda_Davis

Would you pay $1997 to learn everything Doctore knows about outsourcing?

Doctore

Haha.. well I've been doing this for a very long time and I still dont know enough..

My whole point for creating this thread was because I feel strongly against telling everyone that one approach (using a firm), should be avoided like the plague, versus taking the time to explain when the use of a firm is the right approach.

If you watch the Outsource Force vids, you'll see that John is creating his own gaming company. He looks to have started his own "firm" because he probably realizes that the only way to build quality software, is to have a firm where you can be sure that you implement software best practices.....I'm sure he knows what the root causes were for his failed project that he discusses in his vid, so he probably is setting up a dev team that has people trained in requirements management, software project planning, PM, QA, configuration mgmt, etc.. et.. etc.. all of these things that you will have a very hard time doing with using freelancers...

If I were him, I would have created separate modules where I explain when using a freelancer is the best approach, and when you should use a firm. I would have gave the positives and negatives of both approaches, and then let the user decide what's best for them.. Some people enjoy looking for the best available people via job sites, Craigs Lists, and other places... while others would rather have someone else do it.. it's all a personal preference...


Here is what my personal experience has been..

TECHNICAL WORK (where you need a solid PM, Technical Lead, and a company that understands software development, and have implemented or in the process of implementing software process improvement programs such as CMMI)

TOOLS: I would NEVER use Basecamp to manage a technical project. Redmine, Sharepoint, Copper, and good tools to use.. You will usually end up using a combination of tools, but programs such as Redmine (free) and Sharepoint are good collaborative tools built for tech projects.

Vietnam (Hanoi or Danang): I've had fantastic results using Vietnamese firms.. they have good English skills, and are extremely talented developers who take pride in their work. I've used teams in HMC, but I've found that due to the large influx of multinationals, there is a lot of job hopping.. so you do get more consistency in Hanoi and even more in Danang.

PH (Manila or Davao): I used teams in both Manila and Davao, and ended up loving the work that was done in Davao. It was also a great excuse to enjoy the beauty of the beaches in Davao -- make sure you try the Durian Coffee!! yum..

Thailand (Bangkok): What I like about Thailand, is you'll usually find firms that use native English speakers in customer facing roles -- such as PM or technical leads.. although Thais have good English skills, it's not on par with PH, so working with native English speakers makes things a lot easier. As for technical ability, I've found some of the best programmers (especially .NET & PHP) in Thailand.

Singapore, Malaysia, and others: I've used resources in other countries as well, and was tempted to create a permanent team in Malaysia, because they have excellent English skills. However, costs were at least 25-30% higher. Singapore also is good, but the costs are too high. Burma was fantastic before the political problems a few years ago. I once had a project delivered with ZERO defects from a Burmese team.


FREELANCERS / VAs (Non technical work such as article writing, bookmarking, link building, creating accounts, graphic design, etc.)

TOOLS: Basecamp works great as John R. said in his Outsource Force videos..

PH: I currently use a company in the Philippines for link building, article writing, bookmarking, etc.. and have nothing but good things to say about them. For every 15 tasks, I might get one back that I'm not happy with, but it's just minor little issues that can be cleared up with better guidance from me.

Thailand: I have great success using freelancers in Thailand for design work such as converting static HTML pages to Drupal or WP, creating logos, etc.

Vietnam: I used freelancers in Vietnam to do things such as data entry, uploading videos, etc.

India: I use freelancers from India for article writing. Rates are very cheap and although I've had to edit them, overall its great value for money...

In summary, what I would like someone to take away from this post, is that using a firm or a freelancer will work, but there are situations where (in my opinion), using one is better than the other.... hence my primary reason for creating this thread.. when I saw John R's video warn people against using a firm, I just had to stand up and say something....

As for creating a product to sell, I would rather help fellow Warrior Members for free. In the past couple years, I've learned so much on this board about Internet Marketing, SEO, etc.. due to people sharing their experiences, and knowledge.. this has enabled me to quit my job and go 100% full time running my internet marketing business.. I'm in month 7, and what once seemed like a dream, is now a reality.

fypnlp

Wow you really really know your stuff. I think i will keep an eye on this thread!

JohnBergmanReviews

My suggestion is to try ODesk first. There is no cost to join and you can hire people from around the world. You can read reviews from people who have used a particular person. ODesk has good training to show you how to build a team to work with and how to monitor what they are doing on a day by day basis.

Ty Neal

Brad you are right my friend, I know this product will change some lives for the marketers that take action and apply what in the product. I'm ready to start receiving those $1000 checks from it When I seen the first video i already new i will be getting this product it makes sense business sense anyway.

Learn this stuff today or you will suffer later is how I look at it

Anonymous Affiliate

I stopped watching the video when he said "PPC marketing is easily outsourced".

Anyone who's involved in PPC knows that it's probably the TOP most difficult field in the whole Internet Marketing scene, and certainly not the type of stuff you can outsource to your standard Philippino outsourcer. Only people who truly know WTF they're doing with PPC will be able to run successful Adwords campaigns, and you will NOT get those guys at $3/hour, or even $20/hour.

I believe John is just parroting stuff he's picked from the internet, or he might have outsourced the entire Outsource Force product creation altogether, but I just cannot believe he actually advised to outsource PPC campaigns to the standard Philippino.

Marty S

This never even occurred to me when I watched it, because the video had become so repetitive. I believe you are right. Thanks for pointing it out.

Ryce

Definitely repetitive On video #3, quite annoying the way he stretches one idea in a loop... to the point you start thinking if the course was entirely outsourced and glued together.

Outsourcing is not a new idea but new technologies allowed that market to multiply its size many many times.

As Doctore wrote before outsourcing the way Reese talks about on hos videos involve a lot of management, software project planning etc..

I doubt if the average guy could really outsource any of those "big six bussiness models" successfully.

Personnaly I like how Tim Ferriss does it by choosing a MUSE which is usually one niche product sold on 1 or 2 channels in a SUPER FOCUSED way.

I guess Reese's patchwork of course is nothing more than a collection of experiences he had while trying to grow his video game company.

For a more "Real Life" and FREE advice on the same topic I would go to:

Mom-and-Pop Multinationals: How to Go Global 59 Comments

Never forget that whenever you think on outsourcing, think whether you really to want to, outsource life? outsource work? both?

Be real and most important, BE HAPPY


Case Studies

FiverrGuru

There's really no secret to outsourcing - he just gave you his best ideas in video #2

JoeCool

So that an Army of Affiliates will:

* Stoop to any level to make a sale
* Spam the hell out of their lists (with pre-written emails, no less)
* Create fluff filled bonuses if you buy through their link (don't forget to clear your cookies)
* Setup "video reviews" of them reviewing the launch videos
* Run fake PPC ads with headlines like: Is Product Name Here A Scam?
* Create hundreds of Flogs
* Use link bait on Twitter & Facebook or wherever else they can trick people into clicking on their affiliate links

Do Anything, ANYTHING... to get that $1,000.00, $2,000.00 commission.

And we wonder why Internet Marketing and Affiliate Marketing gets so sleazy at times.


~ JoeCool

Tamer

^^^^^^^^^
@JoeCool: you nailed it down man
lol

Tamer

M Thompson

Think so? John Jonas doesn't

I just can't believe that John Jonas actually promotes a rival product..(ok thats me being naive again!) Can't beat throwing away your hard won reputation for a few sales

If John reads this...why is this better than replace myself?

Frank Ayres

instead of giving affiliates half the money he should sell it for half the price and cut out the affiliates, he would proabably get more sales and less refunds that way

Marty S

Even less for me. At 25% of the price like $400-$500, I would take a serious look at this.

Craig Beckta

Higher priced products actually attract more affiliates than
lower priced products.

And the refund rate will probably be close to the same
refund rate as a $500.00 product.

With a higher price point you also don't have to sell
as many products to make the same amount of
money or more.

The 2k price point is a proven price point if you have the
right affiliates promoting for you.

Craig

Amanda_Davis

Without the high commissions, you don't get the army of affiliates promoting, which means the launch SEEMS like a much smaller deal and therefore results in lots fewer sales.

Most of the big launches are basically driven by the fact that SO MANY people are mailing saying "you have to get this"

Matthew Ohms

I agree. I like John R and his products are great, but in my opinion nearly 2K is a bit much. (I know I shouldn't be drawing conclusions without actually reviewing the product like the many other negative nancys do on this forum). When I was watching the videos I told myself if the price is at or around $500, maybe even if it was closer to 1K, I would buy it. When I saw the $1995 I almost blew a mouthful of Black Velvet Reserve all over my laptop!

Dayne Dylan

I've watched the videos, and for one, the price is just ridiculous. And second, I don't need John Reese to tell me how to outsource the work I need done for my business. This is NOT rocket science.

And outsourcing PPC to the Philippines? Um...no.

Scott Ames

Gosh.. Reading this thread it seems that people hate marketing.

Marty S

Does price point skepticism equate to hating marketing? That's a new one.

JaniG

i guess the $2k price point is for the serious marketers

Then again one who is smart could figure this out on their own and build a team.

However some people don't know how to outsource or where the heck to go.

Jani G

Dayne Dylan

I will tell you were they can go for free, right here in this forum. Outsourcing like I said is not difficult. What can be a bit tricky is finding good people to work for you and to do it well. There is not going to be a marketing course that can teach this. Sure, they can tell you what to LOOK for or some tips and places online to go (once again, FREE in this forum people)...but it is all going to come down to that individual person(s) that you hire in the end.

GeorgR.

Nobody needs to spend $2000 to get the information where to outsource. The only reason why this is $2k is to bait affiliates and the fact that he has a "big name" allowing him to do so.

Dayne Dylan

1000% in agreement.

Doctore

Dayne is absolutely right. The difficult part of outsourcing is finding good people, and as he said, no course in the world can do that for you.

In my personal experience, I've always found that it takes at least three projects, before you can make a decision on continuing to use a firm/freelancer.

Here is how things usually play out....

The first project is a learning experience. You will make mistakes, they will make mistakes, and you both will learn. The key is to do a 'lessons learned' at the end of the project and review what worked, what didn't, then incorporate these lessons into the next project.

The second project will be similar to the first. Things will be better, but there will still be some minor issues. Most likely, its more centered around actual deliverables, because by now the communication between you both has improved. Once again, after the project, you do a lessons learned, and then this serves as one of the important inputs into the next project.

The third project is where all the magic happens. You've now had two projects to work things out. You've used the lessons from the previous projects to improve things. Communication is better, both of you have clear understandings of the deliverables, and overall things should be a better reflection of what the provider can do. However, if things are still screwed up, or you see repeat instances of previous issues that you've identified in part of the lessons learned, then its time to move on.

I know some of you might feel you dont have time to give someone three projects before you figure out if they are good.. trust me.. ive had numerous situations where the companies who I thought were going to be great, that turned out to be a huge disappointment. ... whereas, I've used companies that didn't really have it all together, but were willing to work as "partners" to make the project successful no matter what... and by the third project.. they were All Stars...

Outsourcing is NOT easy.. but when you do find a reliable resource, they can make your life much easier, and enable you to enjoy all the benefits of outsourcing.. I know this might sound strange,, and maybe it's a terrible comparison, but it's sort of like finding a hot IM niche.. its easy for someone to write an ebook about "how" to find a niche, but in reality, it takes time and money to see if that niche is going to be a profitable one..

sallycev

I have outsourced successfully before and it wasn't that hard/or maybe I just got lucky!
I paid more than $2 per hr though, I paid $5 per hr for a VA. Boy, she was worth every penny! Real crackerjack and she even took some of the steps beyond what my instructions were to create some great feedback for me.

I used elance and I chose this particular person because she had great reviews. I gave her great reviews and bonuses as well.

The best thing I found about having a VA was that no matter what my schedule was, those tasks (marketing) were getting done every week consistently!!

Just that one word "consistently" can take your biz. to the next level!

I will outsource again soon and let you know how it goes. Might even put something together to help others do it too.
Don't worry, if I do it won't be anywhere near $2k!!

Cheers.
Sally

covert

I bought some of the great info that Jon Jonas provides and it helped me to create outsourcers all over the world, and at a price that was a lot less than 2K. I guess that is the price that most will pay, but I'm not sure why they do?

It's obvious that the last 3-4 big launches are being done by the same team.

- Videos look the same
- Shopping cart and order page are the same
- Price is the same

If they really wanted to get mass appeal, they'd make the price $497 or less. That is more than reasonable...

My question, are they really getting people to buy at this 2k price tag?

Think about this: Frank Kern put out his "List Control" back in Jan/Feb as a $297 option to try his MCM program. Then he brought it back with a full launch as a $2k product. Has no one noticed this slight of hand?

Just curious,

Al

kincontrol

Hi, I just joined actually looking for information on Frank Kern's List Control because I'm expecting that he'll likely be doing a relaunch in the Summer some time. I'm wondering if it really actually did contain more information than other commonly used list building practices and if it was worth the money. Does anyone have experience with this program, would you endorse it and experiences with it that you can share?

Also, Al, can you tell me what "MCM" stands for?

Thanks,

Kim

Dayne Dylan

People need to start working more instead of buying nonsense products like this. I'm really losing my respect for some of the top marketers very quickly (not naming names, but I'm sure you can figure it out).

Ryce

Mike Filsaime just jumped the affiliate bandwagon

Mike Filsaime's Outsource Force Bonus

hd28qi

Ya know? I bought a few of these $2K products. I have a biz that can afford them, and I know that if I use a tiny bit of the info, I'll make my cash back... and always do and then some. However, for a newbie or someone in the early stages of biz, unless you are 100% convinced a product can help you, there are going to be cheaper or free options to get one started in these subject areas... like list building or outsourcing.

If it was not for Walker's Product Launch Formula, I'd still be poor. However, if I went back in time 3 years and saw that PLF was a 2K product, would I have bought it? No. And I would not have the biz I have today.

There is a disconnect between struggling biz people needing great courses and the cost.

I am sure I could have gotten together the $2K if it was 3 years ago for PLF, but I doubt I would have tried.

You can justify any price tag for a make money product. But what is the reality of helping the people who need it the most?

At $2K, they mostly get people like me who already HAVE money.

That said, I am opting out of Outsource Force. At $500, maybe...

List Control was great. I recommend it for those who this will not break the bank and are truly looking for list building info. However, if you're struggling or new at this... no way. It was good, I enjoyed it and glad I did it, but not a business game changer.

Amanda_Davis

$5/hr is still cheap for a good VA - sounds like you found a good worker! Do you still work with her?

JennRush

Thanks for pointing out ODesk. I just went there. Looks promising.

Since I already have contacts in India, I'd been planning to talk with my friends there. However, in reading the other posts, I may look at ODesk for Vietnamese contacts.

Do you have any particular success tips for using ODesk?

Thanks!
Jenn

cseo32

Hmm...should I listen to the advice of a prominent online multi-millionaire about outsourcing... or to all these forum goers. I wonder which would be better for my business....

Negotiator74

Make no mistake....he's a prominent online multi-millionaire because he knows how to market. Yes, his products are good but don't confuse his earnings with his ability to teach you something magical.

Dayne Dylan

Don't underestimate the people here and the income they make my friend.

Ryce

From Someone With:
Posts: 4
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Should we listen to you

Alex Lind

If I need to do anything, I try and seek the advice of someone who has 'done it'

So, if I want to go on holiday to Paris, I phone somebody who has been to Paris. It's no secret on how to get there - I just prefer to talk to somebody who has been there and knows how to get there, which airline to use, which hotel to stay at, which attractions to avoid, and the 'must see stuff'.

That's the same way I use these products.

If I need to outsource (which I don't), I would buy the course from John Reese. John has been there and done it. His expertise is worth the price. Doesn't matter if its 1 DVD or 10. I just want to know how he got there.

Same with Andy Jenkins for example - If I was going to do a lot of Video work, I would have bought Andy Jenkins' Video Boss (which I didn't). Andy knows Video backwards - he's the guy to go to.

The bottom line is, if you need the training to progress your online business, $2k is probably a fair price - again, only if you need it. I don't need to outsource, so won't buy it.

Alex

covert

Someone asked what MCM was? "Mass Control Monthly".

Here's the deal...

When I was looking to outsource, I posted here to get some feedback...

Got it and hired a company...

They did a pretty good job, and had I been more organized, I could have used them even more powerfully.

Decided to get a full time person.

Researched, and found Jon Jonas. Took his program for like $200 or whatever and learned everything I needed about outsourcing. His info is worth more (and maybe it is now), but his advice directly allowed me to hire my first filipino assistant.

Not sure what Reese could be going over in his course that would be worth 2k? And I've bought from him, Kern, Filsaime, et al before, but come on! I get the feeling they are not developing a course and then deciding its worth, they are coming up with a 2,000 price tag and trying to build a course to meet the price.

This is the problem with this in my opinion.

I needed covers done for my books. I went to elance, found a great graphic designer in Bulgaria, saw his work, hired him, he did an excellent job for a great price.

Follow my advice: JUST TAKE ACTION! DO SOMETHING.

Go hire your first person right now... Have them do something simple. Get your feet wet. Don't wait for all the lights to be green and wait for some coaching deal.

When you take action, you'll know in about a week or two if it is working...You can always replace them. You are in business, so act like it...

Spend a hundy or two and see what you get...

Another tip- Hired my personal assistant right out of my local Craigs List. Was never on there in my life. Took an ad out one day, and started interviewing the next. In two weeks I had a great assistant that I still use today... She's not $2/hour, but I decided I needed someone I could call, IM, or email when ever I needed to, and she's wonderful.

TAKE ACTION!

Hope that helps someone.

Peace,

Al

Marty S

Latest John Reese email with this subject - "Okay then. Let me BRIBE you. (AMAZING BONUS INSIDE)"

List Control did not sell out. MSMM did not sell out. Now John Reese is adding bribes for his own product, so apparently, sales could be better.

I hope this means some adjusted price points for products that I might be interested in from these guys.



.

HighPowerSites

In the outsource force demo videos, John mentioned a website to find workers from the Phillipines. Does any one remember the site?