thunderbird

Artisteer, a wordpress customization desktop application was beginning to show some promise. Addons developed independently from Artisteer helped improve its functionality. Then, come Wordpress 3, Artisteer imploded. Artisteer 2.5 -- its latest version as of this post -- is a total train wreck. Artisteer 2.5 generates overly-complicated non-standard code that is a total puzzle to modify, yet is limited in functionality (much more limited than WP3 default code!). Who knows what Artisteer's motivation was in creating this mess.

It is time for competition to move in.

If any program developers out there wants an opportunity to profit from wordpress, create a WYSIWYG child theme creator, either as a desktop application or as an online adjunct to wordpress. Have it for allowing users to create customized child themes of Wordpress 3 default theme (or, if you want to get fancy, for a couple of popular themes as well, eg Hybrid or Genesis).

Here's what one Artisteer expert and former fan had to say about its latest upgrade (you can be sure that it will be deleted from Artisteers main forum):
Artisteer Web Designer Forums

MichaelHiles

Well for us non WP users, it's still a pretty handy tool.

thunderbird

That is why it is time for competitors to move in. To create a handy WYSIWYG wordpress customization tool that generates code that is elegantly simple, yet rich in functionality (the opposite of what Artisteer does). I think that a WYSIWYG wordpress child theme generator would be the way to go.

tecHead

Artisteer has always been pretty CSS intense; that's nothing new.

It was mainly built from an 'aesthetics' point of view rather than a developer's point of view; thus the proprietary coding.... which really isn't all that proprietary since its based primarily on CSS.

As long as you're proficient in CSS you can modify an Artisteer theme to your heart's content.

I'd say the 'problem' is with WordPress and how antiquated their theming system is; but, I'd have a lynch mob at my door if I said that too loud. lol

PLP

thunderbird

Which, if any, CMS do you like?

tecHead

Well, not to be nit-picky but WP is just now getting pegged as a CMS; it was built and is still structured as a plain old blog.

Now v.3.0.1 does offer up some cute functionality; that has been available since '05 in OpenSRS's blog platform. Only reason WP is so widely used is because its free.

But, to answer your question... if I'm looking to throw up a "blog", I usually go with WP 'cause its quick. But, I'll never use it for anything else because its too cumbersome and a PITA to keep up with all the plug-ins you have to incorporate to make it do more.

CMS? I use my own stuff; PerfectProgram. It was built from the ground up to be an eCommerce System w/CMS capabilities built-in.

PLP

thunderbird

Very cool. I'll try it some time.

MichaelHiles

I'm one of those evil Microsoft .NET guys, so I use DotNetNuke like a bandit.

TinkBD

I use Artisteer and I am not currently planning on upgrading to 2.5

I am sitting at 2.4+ and am using it in conjunction with the new addon, Templateer. This gives a pretty good integration with the WP 3 goodies that I am slowly adding to my sites.

I LOVE having the Magazine layout choices that Templateer provides. I am finding that I start with a standard WP set up and then as the site get populated with posts, I progress to an appropriate Magazine layout for that site.

Artisteer and Templateer are a wonderful combination... and Bud, the Templateer developer, does a great job... makes me wish he were running things at Artisteer...

In fact, if he were to breakout and create a full WP alternative, I'd signup in a heartbeat. ;-)

I agree that there seems to be room for a new competitor.

The reality is that as WP evolves, the WP related products will evolve also. This is my second template creating program and I don't expect it to be the last. ;-)

Anyway, IF anyone had been fence sitting, at the moment Artisteer 2.4+ and Templateer are a worthwhile combo.

Tink

thunderbird

Yes, me too. I also use this combo of Artisteer 2.4 plus Templateer. Bud is extraordinary. He offers everything Artisteer would have offered if they actually listened to their customers. I'd sign up if he created an Artisteer alternative.

TinkBD

EXACTLY!

;-)

MichaelHiles

He doesn't offer any support for .NET templates, DotNetNuke, Joomla, or Drupal.

thunderbird

Right. I should have specified Wordpress.

TinkBD

You are right. I am sorry. I should have specified Templateer is a WordPress addon for Artisteer.

I use the home edition of Artisteer since my main interest is in WP, so for me, it is a perfect combo!

Sorry for not being more specific!

Tink

rts2271

Developers use notepad and kwrite anyhow. Artisteer is for n00bs who don't want to be bothered to learn what they are actually doing.

Not much of a loss really.

scrofford

That maybe true, but unless you are creating sites to flip, learning all of the technical stuff as an IM'er isn't going to make you money. It's easier to either use a WSIWYG program for html like Kompozer or even Expression Web, or use Artisteer. You can either outsource it or learn it. If I am focusing on making money and don't know how to do something, then outsourcing is the best deal for me. The whole point isn't having a pretty website. The whole point is creating a website that makes you money, and if you can use Artisteer for that, then great.

rts2271

Scrofford,
I agree 110% on that. I'm just making a distinction from developers and fiddlers. Theming a web site is not development. Writing a new plugin is.
*NOTE* I do not claim to be a WP developer. I am in fact a n00b who even owns a copy or two of Artisteer /*ENDNOTE*

scrofford

Completely agree!

MichaelHiles

Well it happens that I am a pretty serious developer, but understand that time is money and that it's better to implement quickly and refine over time.

People aren't interested in paying for time spent on hand coded works of art. That's why you're not going to find too many graphic designers sitting at the helm of a company. They're more interested in the aesthetics and intrinsic detail.

I'm also quite comfortable using object architecture tools like LLBLGen and nHibernate instead of writing object code by hand.

I agree that theming isn't programming, but I wouldn't reduce people that use theme generators to "fiddlers" or call people who use Artisteer "noobs".

I was on Macromedia's beta test team for Dreamweaver UltraDev 1.0 & I've been developing websites commercially since 1993 so I'm hardly a "noob".

thunderbird

It's interesting. Coding is all about end results (ie what you see and what it does). Sometimes someone will learn coding due to serious dissatisfaction with what's out there, and crappy results when trying to outsource it. Kind of reminds me of how screenwriters get into directing movies, not due to ambitions to become a movie director, but due to the fact that directors brutalize and mangle their stories (speaking from bitter experience).

7thnetsmith

Hi guys, don't mean to be off topic but you can try thesis or thematic. Both have good features and more importantly an active community.

thunderbird

Hybrid is superior.

mojojuju

Pfffttt.. That's what lamers like you use.

REAL developers write web apps and web sites on punch cards - in assembly. Then they FedEX the punch cards to the data center where their web site resides. And then the tech guy at the data center loads the punch cards into the IBM 704 mainframe that the web site runs on.

Anyway, that's how real developers do it. Lamers that use notepad, kwrite, emacs, and vi have no idea how this is done because they're so dependent on their lamer tools.

Amy Balti

Using Artisteer for Wp can be a pain sometimes specially if you want to customize it a bit or add some widgets and even on their support forum you don't get the solutions or the answers you need. Your only way to overcome artisteer shortcomings is to use some plugins but that can have its drawbacks as we all know.

thunderbird

Like I said before a desktop WSIWYG Twenty Ten (wp 3 default theme) child theme generator would be a dream tool.

bertyounger

So has Artisteer addressed the issues with WP 3.0 yet? What has been everyone's experience? And by the way just want to fiddle around and customize my templates.

CDarklock

90% of the people who ask me to design their website want something Artisteer will do in four minutes by clicking some buttons. And I'm perfectly happy to collect $300 for clicking buttons instead of typing raw HTML for six hours, even if I could do that instead.

TinkBD

I don't know whether Artisteer has, but Bud, the developer of Templateer has, to some extent.

As I mentioned earlier, I have made the decision to tread water with Templateer and Artisteer 2.4

Using that combo, I have been able to utilize a number of the WP3 options, including the Menus option.

On horizontal menus, I do make sure that I don't have too many links since things tend to look funny in IE if they wrap to a second line.

So far, this combo is giving me great and workable options easily.

At some point, I do plan to upgrade Artisteer 25 and the associated version of Templateer so I can play with them. I plan to install both IN ADDITION TO my current working 2.4 version.

HTH,

Tink

madison_avenue

Artisteer is used mainly to make websites out of Wordpress. To get the best out of Wordpress you have to use it as a blog, which what it was built for. It does an oustanding job on that score.

If you use Wordpress to make static websites you have to make compromises and install at least 8 plugins as a minimum.

TinkBD

One of the major benefits to use WP for web sites, is that the resulting web site can be edited and run by an inexperienced person.

My clients are offline business owners. They have neither the time or inclination to learn HTML or whatever, yet they need websites where they control the content and can add content easily and quickly.

WordPress is an excellent solution for them.

Are there compromises? Yes, of course there are.

Is it a worthwhile trade off? At this point in the history of the internet, I think that the answer is yes. Your mileage may vary.

Will the trade offs be worth it later on? Perhaps not.

Ken Strong

So there's probably no way to purchase 2.4, is there?

EDIT: Their website says an upgrade/patch was released on August 30 to fix some of the WP compatibility problems -- is anyone using the updated version and still having the same problems?

Also, they say 3.0 will be out soon, and there's a free preview version for download:

http://www.artisteer.com/?p=news

TinkBD

Ken - There was a DL of 2.4 available on the Artisteer site a few months ago, long after the upgrade to Artisteer 2.5. IIRC, it was hidden away somewhere. ;-)

I remember seeing a post about it with the link, on the Templateer forum. You might contact Bud of Templateer and ask him.

Because they send out a usable copy for their trial mode, but with the Save options disabled, you may be able to get a copy of 2.4 and then upgrade to a functional and legal copy of 2.4 by paying for it.

NOTE - in offering this possible solution, I am not suggesting anything related to copyright infringement or illegal program usage or theft.

Just sayin! ;-)

Tink

Ken Strong

Thanks! Right after I posted that part, I discovered that they have a 3.0 preview ready to download -- so I think I'll give that a shot first and see if they have the bugs worked out.

nettech

Whats especially worse is that most of the contextual advertising plugins e.g. for Adsense don't work for the frontpage. This is a total disaster for me as my main source of income is through AdSense. I'm not a developer but have had to start tweaking code in order to display AdSense. This makes things a great deal longer and time is money in thsi game as you know. I used to Love Artisteer and having been using it for 2.5 years....now all we need is the fix to all these problems without the need for any coding.

thunderbird

I highly recommend that you purchase The Templateer, an independently created add-on system for Artisteer. It not only allows for various magazine style presentation choices for Artisteer-generated templates, but also offers the excellent support that Bud Griffin, Templateer's creator, provides on the forum, and he often helps fix up problems related to Artisteer (actually, whether or not it is related to Artisteer. Something Artisteer *never* does). The Artisteer forum itself is lacking and Artisteer support is condescending, deceitful and unhelpful. The Artisteer program itself, once things are sorted out, does offer flexibility of design, and with the help of The Templateer and the helpful feedback of Bud, can actually be made to work properly.

Blase

Yeah, I used to use to program with punch cards back
in the mid 70's. We talked about bits and bites back then,
00101001, that actualy means something, but then somebody
figured out easier ways to write code. Now I have a life.

Yes, I use Artisteer.

SarahMcHarry

Blase - LOL!

I used to program with punch cards too and those were the days when, in your first day in a new job, you had to write your own bootstrap routine . We could only dream where it might all lead. And, yes, I too use Artisteer...

Sarah

Blase

They only thing good about those days where
your boss had no idea how long something should take
so you could get away with murder.

There was a guy I worked with that would sit with his
feet up on his desk and smoke his pipe. One day the boss
walks by and says, "Mike, what are you doing?"

Mike puts his feet on the ground, puts his pipe in the ash
tray and looks the boss right in the eye and says, "I'm thinkin".
The boss just shook his head and walked away.

How many Imer's on this forum do you think know
what a parity bit is?

belgirl

Artisteer's website coding for Wordpress IS ridiculous. And when you point out errors to their support team they get super defensive. Like "It must be YOU." or "It must be Wordpress." Personally, I would stay clear of it.

CanuckWarrior

Have you tried Headway?

I do most of my work in XSP, but I recently purchased Headway and was surprised at how fast the WP site it created loaded. Not as fast as XSP mind you, but way faster than the other WP themes I've tried. So it must be generating something better than train wreck code.

pawelkalkus

What are the alternatives to Artisteer that give similar functionality in terms of designing a web site and are as easy and intuitive to use?