I have never been fond of offline cash cow proponents - but this made me sick!

[Dan C. Rinnert]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

billyboy,Yep. Looking to see if there were more local shops that made sugar-free chocolates than the one I knew of at the time. And that's just deliberately choosing local stuff. You'd be surprised at the things I've searched for online in the way of commodities. I'm not saying it's common, but the answer is yes, at least in my case.

You have to consider post-local searches too. There's a "sweet shop" in my home town where I used to live and, before going back to visit, I might check their website to see what's new or in-stock.

Unfortunately, while they will ship across the country, they have no shopping cart on their website. They don't even have a detailed product list on their site. In fact, their website has fewer images than their full-color brochure they have available in the store! They do have a 1-800 number though.

Even if they did not ship across the country, there would be a benefit in detailing the products they had available, so that you could put together a shopping list before visiting.

[ExRat]

Hi Hamish,

Many of these people have been around IM for a lot longer than you, and I, have and they have great reputations.

People have long memories and you are not portraying yourself very well.

The strange thing is Billyboy is a long time warrior too, who asked for his original warrior ID to be deleted after a big row, and has created a few more since then - although for some strange reason he doesn't remember some of them.

I don't know how much IM he does, although I believe he might be an experienced and successful trader. But his original ID was from 2002 I believe - way before I joined.

Crazy stuff. I have a memory like an elephant too ;-) I have nothing against him, I just wish people would be specific if they're going to be accusational - it saves a ton of wasted pixels.

And as usual there's a huge dose of irony - most of the people in this thread would be the ones who would work hard to expose and ruin any fraudsters who would take actions that would damage the reputation of the group as a whole. Yet due to sloppy thinking and typing, it turns into an internal-thread-war and in the meantime the real dodgy people are cleaning up sellling bad advice to noobs.

[Joe Chill]

Here's WSO I bought recentyl and a small sampling

Email that to theoriginaljc@gmail.com

Quote is true, user gets chilled.

Not cool.

[Magic Johnson]

So many biased opinions here. Yes I'm talking about lawyers, did I say people never get scammed, some of you seem stuck in your own bias of Internet marketing, as I said before.

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

When you're talking about lawyers, doctors, plumbers, etc., where people don't think of them until they need one, then it may have been commonplace for them to grab the Yellow Pages and look through the listings.

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

Yes I am talking about one Lawyer, what are you talking about??? Do you have poor experience with Yp. Yp is far from dead, but believe what you want to believe.

My point as I stated before. It's that we know what we get when we Buy A YP ad, we have alternatives. It's a got damn ad, not an SEO scheme as we talk about Pr, rankings etc.

I'm really on either side of the fence, but it seems you guys are super afraid to let go of this and see it from another more human perspective.

In many respects, the Yellow Pages were doing to small business owners what Internet marketers are accused of doing to small business owners in this thread.

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

The lesson here is to test things, not to take at face value what any marketer tells you. But, from my experience, and my experience with others (and I should point out that much of my experience is with "offline" business owners and not Internet marketers), going forward, the better investment of advertising dollars for businesses is not in the Yellow Pages but in online media.

Are you talking to me or others??

I have been in marketing since almost 10 years back in time. 2001 actually.

I could probably smash your expertisé with my left pinky finger. You don't have to prove anything, because it's not a war between Yp and online marketing.

I tried to point out ethical flaws here and someone had to rip on me because I wrote "humid" 3:00 AM in the
morning.

That's a common trait when you have low self-esteem and lack knowledge in a field. So we take the easy way out instead of trying to grasp a concept. Humid for all you want.

[Alan Petersen]

artwebster local services do not get searched for in Google!

I have a bill for $446 from a plumber that I found after searching Google and I don't think I'm alone. I have a friend who is very handy--I am not. He thinks I got ripped off for paying $446 for something I could have installed myself. But seeing that plumber working in that muck, sawing pipes, wrenching stuff, yea I'm happy to have paid $446. My friend thinks I got ripped off. I'm happy with the results. I don't want to learn plumbing.

Now I agree business owners can be ripped off. I had a friend who was being charged $5,000 for basically a Wordpress blog. He thought it was too much so he called me. I told him to run. But don't paint everyone with the same brush. I didn't get all angry and post here all offline marketers are rip-off artists. Come on now. Maybe cut to decaff coffeee?

[AndrewCavanagh]

Originally Posted by artwebster

[B][I]
YOU have the absolute GALL to accuse me of being insulting!

That is the most offensive, obnoxious and insulting thing that anybody has said about me. I am truly sick and tired of the abject inability of individuals in these forums to try to defend anything without having to resort to personal attacks.

1 - My friends were ripped off.

2 - No amount of IMspeak will ever justify the treatment that they received.

3 - I reported their story here to try to get some understanding within the members of this forum of what they should not do.

4 - I have insulted no-one. I have promoted nothing. I have been very surprised at the degree of support for the rip off merchant.

That's the trouble, though, isn't it, I still trust people to behave honourably and I still retain a basic faith in people wanting to do the right thing.

Stupid of me.

To be fair you have to agree your post called the people who did this:
"offline cash cow proponents".

Since the offline cash cow thread was right here on the Warrior Forum it does seem to infer both that whoever did this was a Warrior Forum member and that anyone else who follows that basic path...working with brick and mortar businesses...is also in the same category.

Which is VERY insulting to the honest consultants here who work VERY hard to ensure they make their clients real sales and profits.

I'm honestly not hoping that was the intention of your post but you can't deny the inference is there...it's right there in the title of your thread.

One other observation.

So far quite a few people have shared some quite valuable knowledge about integrating online and offline marketing and about using internet marketing in a brick and mortar business.

That is exactly what this forum is about...last time I checked the top of the page it says:
"Warrior Forum - Internet Marketing Forums"

You came to an internet marketing forum and posted in the "main internet marketing dicussion" section and got posts back about internet marketing...seems on track to me.

Unless you just wanted to gripe and not open up a discussion about internet marketing in which case you really should have posted in the "Off Topic" section...that's what it's there for.

Some people challenged some of your statements about internet marketing and local search...also on topic for an internet marketing discussion forum.

People challenge the things I say on this forum all the time and I try to answer them based on logic and my experience...I don't get upset about it.

Reasoned discussion is what helps us to put our case more effectively and genuinely persuade and educate people.

Getting upset really isn't helpful.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

[Bev Clement]

Am I the only one who finds this strange

http://www.oldschoolsmarts.com/

[Hamish Jones]

Originally Posted by Bev Clement

Am I the only one who finds this strange

Offline Consulting Training | Art Webster's "Old-School Smarts"

The more I think about it, the more strange I think it is.

Art could have shared with us on numerous occasions the 'website' in question but he hasn't.

Art, please share the link with us.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Alan Petersen

I have a bill for $446 from a plumber that I found after searching Google and I don't think I'm alone. I have a friend who is very handy--I am not. He thinks I got ripped off for paying $446 for something I could have installed myself. But seeing that plumber working in that muck, sawing pipes, wrenching stuff, yea I'm happy to have paid $446. My friend thinks I got ripped off. I'm happy with the results. I don't want to learn plumbing.

Now I agree business owners can be ripped off. I had a friend who was being charged $5,000 for basically a Wordpress blog. He thought it was too much so he called me. I told him to run. But don't paint everyone with the same brush. I didn't get all angry and post here all offline marketers are rip-off artists. Come on now. Maybe cut to decaff coffeee?

Well, the type of plumbing YOU are talking about is NOT as simple as some think. There ARE special rules, at least in the US and any place with more than a few neurons. THEY change from time to time. They may have NOTHING to really do with plumbing per se. Just google "plumbing building codes". For example, vents off of gass appliances like heaters, must be away from certain items, above a certain height, and have a certain incline. In some cases, a failure may make a house unsalable, etc... And MOST people that just started welding and soldering, do NOT do a good job, even if they feel they do.

If a PLUMBER makes a mistake, you can have him fix it. If YOU make the mistake, it may mean having to pay yet again, etc... And I have seen LOTS of mistakes. Some, like improper fittings, may work for YEARS and then cause degrading that can lead to water damage which can lead to mould, etc.... A welding or soldering mistake can be just as bad.

Maybe you can get a GOOD plumber, and he can advise you against the type of mistake that MANY people made in Virginia, to name one state!!!!! Some time ago, people decided polybutylene pipes were cheap, and would save money. Well, a few years ago I guess the first ones started to go bad! People scrambled to replace all the pipes. They were bursting and spraying water all over! Polybutylene Plumbing and Pipe Replacement-Polybutylene Lawsuit and Class Action Settlement Information

Besides, coming out, cutting, welding, providing for possible problems, cleanup, prep, etc.... It all adds up. You figure that has to cost perhaps $200+ to start. What did your friend figure was fair? They probably START at like $50/hour(INCLUDING the drive to the place). How long did it take?

Steve

[Thomas Belknap]

Originally Posted by artwebster

We only have one side of the story and Art seems to like to look for the negatives. At least that is what I have seen from his contribution on this forum.

You are probably right, Thomas with a slight adjustment - I see what you like to call the negative and choose not to try to convince myself that it is not there. My philosophy is very simple - it is humanly impossible to be negative. We do not have the sophistication of language and terminology to make a negative statement.

By highlighting a situation that was morally indefensible I sought to balance out the hysteria that 'off line cash cow' tends to generate by illustrating that ripping off a trusting and gullible client is not the way to go.

It seems that defending my position in respect of this particular case has resulted in certain members being 'insulted'. If they behave in such a manner I can see why they might feel ashamed but - 'insulted'?

Some of the responses in this topic have been valuable and well thought out - others have been knee-jerk reactions and many have been written without reference to what has gone before. Based upon my post that was determined as 'insulting other members' wherein not a single member was named or indicated, I suppose I should really look back and see how many times I could become 'insulted' by some of the things said about me?

If a robust defence and strong argument are not to be allowed - what is left? Or is it only MY robust defence and strong argument that is questionable?

Art, we don't know what was agreed upon nor what was delivered. We don't know exactly what the business was trying to gain by going online. We don't know anything besides your opinion they got screwed. This is far too one sided if you ask me.

The knee jerk reactions seems to be coming from your posts. It is completely one sided. Others have discussed how the business could be making money from being online and therefore would not have been "taken advantage" of.

You have it made up in your mind that you are correct and everyone else is defending their businesses with knee jerk reactions. Now that doesn't seem like a strong argument to back up your opinion, rather you are trying to make it look like people are defending their livelihood.

A lot of people that responded are not in the offline business. I am not in it but still think on the lines of many that have spoken.

I really don't know if they were screwed as you say. It definitely could be possible. I do know there is more ways to making money online than putting up a website and being listed for local searches. Andrew pointed out a very good one in one of his posts.

I guess it is how you see things. You say they got screwed and a lot of us say they could make a positive for their business out of it. Either way, you have not presented anything to back up your argument besides throwing innuendos at others in this thread. You are basically telling people they have no honor and they are only defending their businesses.

Now with that said, I will bow out of this thread for good. There is some good info in this thread for those that want to see it.

[Alan Petersen]

Originally Posted by Bev Clement

Am I the only one who finds this strange

Offline Consulting Training | Art Webster's "Old-School Smarts"

Ugg...so this whole thing was self-promotional. Reporting this post as just that. Thanks Bev.

[ExRat]

Hi Steve (Seasoned)

Thanks for that link -

Polybutylene Plumbing and Pipe Replacement-Polybutylene Lawsuit and Class Action Settlement Information



Seriously, you have expert knowledge in a really wide range of areas. It brightens my forum experience to see you back posting here.

.............

Just found this ebook on Google - 'The Offline Cash Cow Milking Guide - How To Skyrocket Your Income Like Gangbusters By Showing Your Local Mom & Pop Stores How To Corner The Global Market By Unleashing The Raw Power Of The Internet On Unsuspecting, Desperate Sweet Addicts - Special Bonuses - Liquorice Allsort Continuity Tactics, Aniseed OTO Twist plus The Secret Of The Marshmallow Upsell'.

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by Bev Clement

Am I the only one who finds this strange

Offline Consulting Training | Art Webster's "Old-School Smarts"

Originally Posted by Hamish Jones

The more I think about it, the more strange I think it is.

Art could have shared with us on numerous occasions the 'website' in question but he hasn't.

LOL... the guy's already been accused of pimping his site and now you want to know why he HASN'T piked it?

At least get your indignation coordinated.

Funniest of all, Art's product is not even available or for sale yet.

You know, I would expect a little more humility Bev given the very recent recent tough spot in your life:

Bev Clement needs your help...

Art is in an equally unfortunate and difficult circumstance and you're pissing on him like some forum troll, looking to call him out. Misplaced fury, madam.

So you disagree with him... fine. But give the character questioning a rest.

Originally Posted by ExRat

most of the people in this thread would be the ones who would work hard to expose and ruin any fraudsters who would take actions that would damage the reputation of the group as a whole. Yet due to sloppy thinking and typing, it turns into an internal-thread-war and in the meantime the real dodgy people are cleaning up sellling bad advice to noobs.

Well said, Roger... Exactly.

Art is not a bad guy... nor is he some thread fluffing piker. This is how he feels and he's not alone in that.

Surely we all agree that people shouldn't collect $5k checks from business owners and then come to the Warrior Forum asking how to do what they just got paid for, yes? So you agree with Art.

Surely we all agree that it is our job as marketing consultants to do everything we can to understand the client before we advise them on a course of action that may or may not be well suited for their particular circumstances, yes? Then you agree with Art.

Surely we can agree that though we may each try to be conscientious and ethical in our dealings with clients, many Internet marketers getting into the offline consulting business are not? Then again, we're all in agreement here.

The accusations flying about him in this thread are really disappointing.

So what do you think the big scoop is here... that Art has the same sig link he's had for months? That's he's working on a product he's discussed here openly many times?

Not fair and not cool.

Brian

[ExRat]

Hi Brian,

I understand your points, but where it got most messy was because of what I spelled out on page 2 -

With respect -

...what you are classing as 'wriggling and squirming' 'to try and justify this action' is not at all. I don't think anyone has tried to justify it at all.

This is what many of us have tried to point out to you. You choose to see things, including the words that other people type, in the way that you choose to see them - paying little attention to their obvious actual meaning.

In many ways, this is no less deceitful than the acts of the seller in your story.

Example -

So because of your personal experiences and your (seemingly deliberately) blinkered attitude towards the subject (if you lived in London, would you know the location of every business?) you feel that this justifies adding blanket absolutes such as -

Therefore it is impossible to have a sensible and logical discussion or debate with you - and this is not the first thread where I have explained this to you and shown you proof of your attempts to do it.

Even when Art is proven wrong and 'kind of' backs down, he manages to re-iterate wide-ranging unspecific negative accusations, tagged on as a byline. Even when it's explained to him, he simply does it again in a different way.

And I think his sig file is being brought into it because of this and because of him doing it in the thread title - the title seems hypocritical, bearing in mind the sig-linked website - live or not.

[seasoned]

ExRat,

Thanks for the compliment! 8-)

BrianMcLeod,

Sadly, a LOT of people here DO seem to have the same type of mindset that gave used car dealers a BAD name. Obviously art didn't feel everyone here was intentionally evil, or even just evil. After all, you wouldn't offer fruit to a vampire bat. You MIGHT do that with a fruit bat though, or if they were somehow omnivorous.

Frankly, if their offerings tended to be spanish centric, the site should have been optimized for spanish speakers. If it was a local delicacy, you shouldn't expect a website to help THAT much. Heck, google has search engines targeted towards areas and languages because THEY know better. A person in china will probably NOT use the english google site. Besides, a site that was written in English might have to explain what some of them are, have different taxes, disclaimers, etc... Some stuff may not even be able to be sold in say America. So it wouldn't be merely a translation.

Some people just don't think about that. It is similar to people in the EU being upset about sites in the US not declaring the VAT, or specifying other currencies. If you charge thousands for such a simple site though, you really SHOULD consider such things.

Steve

[ChrisByrns]

I may be completely drunk (which i am, indeed).. but here's my two cents:

Those people wanted a website, got a website and got charged a certain (imho pretty cheap) fee.

Now, there's plenty of offline companies that just want that: a website. Be it to add more value to their brand or have something to brag about or just to stay in touch with their local customers. Perhaps they hand out like lil' cards with the URL to their customers and tell 'em: "bookmark our site to stay informed on our [whatever]". Or they print that url out on their sales slip or something. It's not always about SEO and online marketing benefits, y'know.

I fail to see the wrongness here.

[ExRat]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the compliment! 8-)

You're welcome.

After all, you wouldn't offer fruit to a vampire bat. You MIGHT do that with a fruit bat though, or if they were somehow omnivorous

Stoppit man, you're killing me.

[InternetMarketingCenter]

Common sense is everything. If you don't have common sense, you're not going to succeed at ANY business (online or offline) or marketing tactic or scheme.

Trusting people who promise to make you gobs of money overnight with little work or effort isn't sensible. Putting a lot of money down to grow your business before you've actually tested the market and seen viability isn't sensible. Taking advice from people who are struggling to make money on how to make money isn't sensible. Assuming one set of strategies works for every business isn't sensible.

Research is sensible. Testing is sensible. Growing at a pace you can financially support is successful. Vetting your advisor before you take their advice is sensible.

If you're not prepared to be sensible about every decision and investment you make, it WILL come back to bite you. There are no quick fixes or perfect solutions or "make money in your sleep" business models that will work for everyone.

Caveat emptor couldn't be more important than it is today.

[Dan C. Rinnert]

Originally Posted by seasoned

Frankly, if their offerings tended to be spanish centric, the site should have been optimized for spanish speakers.

True, but we don't know what language the site was created in. We only know that the only number 1 listing for the site in Google was for an English phrase. We don't know if the site was done in English, Spanish or bilingual. We know only that the only term the site had a number 1 position for was for an English phrase.

And, that's been part of the problem in this discussion and why so many people have said it was a one-sided discussion. Not enough information has been provided about the site in question for anyone to reach any opinions of the true value of the site.

As such, much of the discussion has been around the potential value of a website for a local company.

And, seemingly because people believe that websites for local businesses can be valuable and because there has not been sufficient information about the site in question for anyone here to identify it as a scam, people that argued in favor of the benefits of a website for local search have been, essentially, labeled as scammers.

No one here that I have seen has argued in favor of ripping off small business owners.

[JohnMcCabe]

IMC, things that are simple common sense to people who have been around the block a few times are stunning revelations to those who have never been to the corner...

Like politicians, late-night pitchmen and preachers, the right spiel can make some pretty wild things sound like common sense. And without the experience to filter the spiel, it can be irresistible.

Sometimes the only way you know something was not sensible is through hindsight, contemplating the situation while you mend the hole bitten in the back of your pants.

Originally Posted by InternetMarketingCenter

Common sense is everything. If you don't have common sense, you're not going to succeed at ANY business (online or offline) or marketing tactic or scheme.

Trusting people who promise to make you gobs of money overnight with little work or effort isn't sensible. Putting a lot of money down to grow your business before you've actually tested the market and seen viability isn't sensible. Taking advice from people who are struggling to make money on how to make money isn't sensible. Assuming one set of strategies works for every business isn't sensible.

Research is sensible. Testing is sensible. Growing at a pace you can financially support is successful. Vetting your advisor before you take their advice is sensible.

If you're not prepared to be sensible about every decision and investment you make, it WILL come back to bite you. There are no quick fixes or perfect solutions or "make money in your sleep" business models that will work for everyone.

Caveat emptor couldn't be more important than it is today.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by ExRat

Roger D

'There are no more prizes for predicting rain. There are only prizes for building arks.' Lou Gerstner
'Money can't buy you happiness but it will buy you a yacht big enough to pull up alongside it.' David Lee Roth
'Most people are walking around, umbilical cord in hand, looking for a new place to plug it in.' Cavett Robert

I am going to have to remember those! What great comebacks to some arguments I have gotten in, etc... 8-) ESPECIALLY that LAST one! 8-/

Steve

[KenStrong]

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

LOL... the guy's already been accused of pimping his site and now you want to know why he HASN'T piked it?

Unless I'm confused, I think the website he's referring to that hasn't been shown is the sweet shop's site -- the one that they allegedly got ripped off for. Unless I'm wrong.

Agree that people are too quick to assume the worst about OP's intentions (re the personal promotion).

[Bev Clement]

Brian interesting comments from Art's webdesigner about me. I think you should read what I have said in this thread. I had agreed with the OP, and not Art's follow up comment a number of times.

Sorry, I didn't show humility, was that when I agreed with Art or when I asked a simple question about it being strange his view about offline marketing and his own website, live or not.

Please explain to my dense little brain, where I called Art a forum troll?

Please continue to explain how I am not allowed to say anything which might be seen as a disagreement, because you think I called him a troll, which I would like you to point out to me where I did that, but it's OK for you to point out a thread which is months old.

Again, please show this dumb female where I disagreed with Art, at least prove your accusation.

As I say an interesting way to turn the attention from Art's website which is powered by you to me and the fact that I have supposed to disagreed with him.

Sorry, I don't understand the new rule which says we are not allowed to disagree now, even when we haven't.

Try reading my posts, and then see if I disagreed with him.

The big scoop here is you trying to put something on me which wasn't said, that isn't cool, so get over it.

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

LOL... the guy's already been accused of pimping his site and now you want to know why he HASN'T piked it?

At least get your indignation coordinated.

Funniest of all, Art's product is not even available or for sale yet.

You know, I would expect a little more humility Bev given the very recent recent tough spot in your life:



Bev Clement needs your help...

Art is in an equally unfortunate and difficult circumstance and you're pissing on him like some forum troll, looking to call him out. Misplaced fury, madam.

So you disagree with him... fine. But give the character questioning a rest.



Well said, Roger... Exactly.

Art is not a bad guy... nor is he some thread fluffing piker. This is how he feels and he's not alone in that.

Surely we all agree that people shouldn't collect $5k checks from business owners and then come to the Warrior Forum asking how to do what they just got paid for, yes? So you agree with Art.

Surely we all agree that it is our job as marketing consultants to do everything we can to understand the client before we advise them on a course of action that may or may not be well suited for their particular circumstances, yes? Then you agree with Art.

Surely we can agree that though we may each try to be conscientious and ethical in our dealings with clients, many Internet marketers getting into the offline consulting business are not? Then again, we're all in agreement here.

The accusations flying about him in this thread are really disappointing.

So what do you think the big scoop is here... that Art has the same sig link he's had for months? That's he's working on a product he's discussed here openly many times?

Not fair and not cool.

Brian

[KenStrong]

It looks like all of billyboy's posts in this thread have disappeared -- making some of the responses a bit confusing.

[ExRat]

Hi Ken,

It looks like all of billyboy's posts in this thread have disappeared -- making some of the responses a bit confusing.

It was actually more confusing when they were there. But it makes the reader experience less mundane when they have to solve anagrams before being able to read the reply.


Hi Steve,

I am going to have to remember those! What great comebacks to some arguments I have gotten in, etc... 8-) ESPECIALLY that LAST one! 8-/

Yeah they've been there a while now. No-ones clicked through yet and bought anything though.

I find myself adding new words to the first one to use in different scenarios - EG -

'There are no more prizes for predicting more bail-outs. There are only prizes for new insolvent bank start-ups'

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by Bev Clement

Brian interesting comments from Art's webdesigner about me.

Good lord, Bev. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, doesn't it?

So now I'm "Art's webdesigner" and not a contributing member of this community for however many years?

Not a moderator of the Copywriting Forum...

Nope.. I'm "Art's webdesigner"... making "interesting comments" in a thread that has ZERO to do with Art's website until you decided that it had to do with Art's website.

I think you should read what I have said in this thread. I had agreed with the OP, and not Art's follow up comment a number of times.

I did read your comments. It made your subsequent off-base and accusatory posts all the more confounding and irritating, honestly.

Sorry, I didn't show humility, was that when I agreed with Art or when I asked a simple question about it being strange his view about offline marketing and his own website, live or not.

In your time of need, the forum rallied around you, Bev. As we do here.

Meanwhile, being "Art's webdesigner" and all, let me elucidate for you what Art was doing... all of which he's openly discussed here before:

Fighting a debilitating chronic medical condition that makes it medically dangerous for him to go out and work.

Going without food for days at a time so that his dogs could eat.

Fighting back eviction from a landlord that pulled the rug out from under a sick man in a time of weakness.

All the while, he's doing everything in his power to put something valuable together for the marching army of knucklehead know-nothings that buy every "How Carmen Electra Made $5K in Offline Consulting And You Can TOO!" offer that sends them out to their local communities unprepared, untrained, and unable to do that which they promise.

But by God you smell something fishy... Yes indeed, collusion is afoot.

There's no one to save the day for Art Webster... except me.

*I* agreed to help Art, pro-bono.

And so it pissed me off – A LOT – when you unfairly question the guy's integrity as you have...

Because when you do... others start reporting the thread as self-promotional... as they have.

And the whole thing gets twisted sideways... as it has.

And THAT is why I said to HAVE SOME HUMILITY about it, Bev.

The guy is honest, in a terrible situation, in constant pain... and you insinuate and continue to suggest that he is somehow trying to sneakily promote a product that is NOT EVEN FOR SALE.

Please explain to my dense little brain, where I called Art a forum troll?

Since you want to play sophistry and semantics. I never SAID you called him a troll. I said you were pissing on him like a forum troll.

Please continue to explain how I am not allowed to say anything which might be seen as a disagreement, because you think I called him a troll, which I would like you to point out to me where I did that, but it's OK for you to point out a thread which is months old.

When you get it wrong it has real consequences for people, Bev. First you say he's insincere and doing the same thing as the other guy... then you called out his website as if Art were up to something sneaky. Now, you've moved on to questioning MY motives.

WF Detective on the case...

YOU called out the website, not Art. YOU made it an issue.

Again, please show this dumb female where I disagreed with Art, at least prove your accusation.

The former is irrelevant and the latter is above.

As I say an interesting way to turn the attention from Art's website which is powered by you to me and the fact that I have supposed to disagreed with him.

Oh please. That doesn't even dignify a real reply.

Sorry, I don't understand the new rule which says we are not allowed to disagree now, even when we haven't.

Try reading my posts, and then see if I disagreed with him.

The big scoop here is you trying to put something on me which wasn't said, that isn't cool, so get over it.

Bev, I'm angry with you at the moment because of this particular thread. But I genuinely respect and appreciate all of the work you have done for this forum.

I have responded to you vigorously and honestly here, but I like you and hope that you can accept my explanation.

Best regards
Brian McLeod
"Art's Websdesigner"

[Bev Clement]

Brian, I'm not sure what difference you being a mod on the copyrighting forum has to do with this, but I'm sure you will tell me why.

I find it interesting and strange that you point out my comment, yet others had said other things about Art, and you seem to think that is OK.

If I'm a forum troll, then you know as a mod what needs to be done don't you.

I was serious when I said I didn't understand, because it is true. I don't understand why you come down hard on me for one sentence and not on others who were saying far worse. The only reason I could come up with was the fact that I mentioned his website which you either designed or run for him. Yes, I put 2 and 2 together on there, but I couldn't see any other link.

I didn't say anything about who designed the website until you decided to turn the whole thing to sound like I was totally against Art.

I'll step out of this now, because it seems we are not allowed to agree or disagree anymore.

[Fernando Veloso]

??

No one discussing the problem of the offline rip off, but discussing who said what to who said who?

Man, i feel embarrassed with all this situation.

Frankly.

I imagine what some novices as me are thinking right now.

[Paul Myers]

Bev,

I had a response similar to Brian's. I don't see what Art's website has to do with this discussion.

No-one is questioning anyone's right to disagree. That's a red herring. What's being questioned is intent. If you, I, Roger (ExRat), Steve (seasoned) or any of the numerous other people who act as watchdogs here drop that kind of line into a discussion, it's going to have an impact.

Specifically, it's going to make people suspicious.

I don't see anything in the OP that is in any way inconsistent with Art's normal posting habits. If you're going to suggest that there's a problem because the site in his sig file relates to this post, when there's clearly no attempt to be promotional, then we get into a whole other area.

A place where people are forbidden from talking about the things in which they have the most expertise or interest?

Do you want to go there?

If I'm missing something as far as what's "interesting" about the link in Art's sig file, I'll be happy to listen. It wouldn't be the first time.

At the moment, I don't see it.


Paul

[Martin Luxton]

So, anyway.

Art's friends are stuck with the website (and we're stuck with this thread).

Let's try and turn this round, Warriors.

Any more suggestions how they can profit from their online presence?

One thing I came up with was marketing piñata (candy-filled paper-mâché figures) to companies, hotels, nightclubs, groups of expats, families.

They could even do bespoke figures. People might pay good money to beat the hell out of a figure of their boss/president/rival football team and they get the added reward of a bunch of sweets.

Martin

[Dan Foley]

Listen guys! I know that you all want to make money and I know that many of you want to do it in the offline arena BUT DO YOU REALLY HAVE TO RIP YOUR CLIENTS OFF?

That is a very broad brush stroke Art. A large percentage of people on this forum are professionals and wouldn't rip anyone off. Did your friends tell you their goal or business plan? Did you talk to the web designer to find out what he was trying to accomplish and how?

To believe that every time their site pops up they are going to win a new customer is criminally naive. Or are you exaggerating for effect? If so, what other exaggerations have you made?

The great thing about your post is it has been responded to with some excellent thoughts and advice.

Other that that, it appears to me that you are defining the situation through a narrowly defined prism. But I am periodically wrong too.

[Dan C. Rinnert]

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

They could even do bespoke figures. People might pay good money to beat the hell out of a figure of their boss/president/rival football team and they get the added reward of a bunch of sweets.

I don't know. With some bosses/presidents/rivals, the candy may end up as "collateral damage" and not end up in a suitable condition to be eaten.

[JohnMcCabe]

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

Any more suggestions how they can profit from their online presence?

One thing I came up with was marketing piñata (candy-filled paper-mâché figures) to companies, hotels, nightclubs, groups of expats, families.

They could even do bespoke figures. People might pay good money to beat the hell out of a figure of their boss/president/rival football team and they get the added reward of a bunch of sweets.

Martin

I can't claim credit for this one, I saw it in a TV show about how a candy shop could improve their bottom line.

Rather than relying on walk-in traffic (like Art) for sales, the owners were instructed (and referred to) a local wedding planner. The shop provided their wares bundled attractively as wedding favors for the receptions.

Instead of a child picking out a handful of treats, the planner purchased anywhere from 100 to 500 identical bundles, wrapped in plastic and tied with a bow in the wedding colors. These were priced per bundle, rather than per pound or kilo. The bundles sold at a premium over the price per pound of the candy.

Something similar could be done online, as a joint venture, perhaps...

[Hamish Jones]

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

LOL... the guy's already been accused of pimping his site and now you want to know why he HASN'T piked it?

At least get your indignation coordinated.

I want to see the Sweet shop site, and have mentioned it in numerous posts.

[Frank Donovan]

Hi Martin

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

Any more suggestions how they can profit from their online presence?

I'd put up a picture of their largest jar of pick 'n' mix sweets and have a competition to guess the number in the jar. Closest wins.

If Spanish law permitted, I'd list a premium phone number to call in for the entries - if not, at least I'd get an email address from each entrant.

In store, every customer buying an item would get a free guess (and would leave their contact details to be notified).

The prize(s) could be anything from the contents of the jar to your weight in candy - the latter might make for an interesting press release

The point is, with an online presence, you're not limited to call-in customers or to "regular" business.


Frank

[ExRat]

Hi all,

Sorry Art and sorry to all because some of my comments have likely caused the raise in temperature and the subsequent derailment. I was the one who brought the word 'troll' into it.

I was simply trying to help in the best way that I feel I can, which is usually centred around trying to promote and sustain spikey to-the-point discussion, clarity of points made and logical conclusions, in order to try and help that discussion have a productive outcome.

I think I'll slip quietly away from this thread and review things a little and see how I can contribute in a better way.

[Vikuna2009+]

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

Hi Martin



I'd put up a picture of their largest jar of pick 'n' mix sweets and have a competition to guess the number in the jar. Closest wins.

If Spanish law permitted, I'd list a premium phone number to call in for the entries - if not, at least I'd get an email address from each entrant.

In store, every customer buying an item would get a free guess (and would leave their contact details to be notified).

The prize(s) could be anything from the contents of the jar to your weight in candy - the latter might make for an interesting press release

The point is, with an online presence, you're not limited to call-in customers or to "regular" business.


Frank

What about putting 5 pieces of candy in a tiny zip-lock bag, with a business card and 1/4 of a flier(to save on paper and global waste), saying you got a contest going on. On the flier you would say that in order to win the prize (whatever it is) you have to be present to win.

Put the date and time out a month ahead, giving you more time to build store awerance (is that a word, lol)? Also say that during Saturday the xxx for ONE HOUR, everyone coming to the store, can eat as much candy as they want, winner or not.

However, to enter the contest, they would have to email their response (to build a list ).

Put together xxx of bags and have High school kids delivering them to the doorstep in local residential areas. The high school kids would not be paid anything but as a thank you to delivering at least 300 fliers, they get xxx amount of candy of their choice.

To make sure nobody is cheating (by dumping it all in the trash bin and then "claiming" they did deliver) put out a few checkpoints, i.e. someone you know in that neighborhood and if they did not get that tiny ziplock bag, you know they cheated. And of course, TELL THEM THAT!

So, lets say you got 20 high school kids who do not mind spending 3-4 hours delivering those zip lock bags, take that times 300 = 6,000!!! 6,000 households covered in an afternoon with a contest that will draw in even more people. Not to forget, you now have a list of 6,000 (IN ONE AFTERNOON).

Heck, I should have made this into an WSO, lol !

I could go on and on but you get my drift, right ?

To Art: I'm sorry you are having a rough time, kind of rough for me too but not to the extent that your"web designer" pointed out. However, I can FEEL your pain (posted in another thread when I was a COMPLETE newbie: "Art, is there something I can do for you?" Yeah, I know, kind of like a major newbie thing, lol.

Anyway, I hope my contribution will help,

all the best, Eva


P.s. I've done similar things in real estate (my business) and it actually works!

[sevenish]

Wow, some nice ideas by the last few posters on doing promotions with the aid of the new site. Since we've not had a look at the site, it's not possible for any one of us to make a guess as to its effectiveness in helping the business.

That said, I use SEs all the time to look up local businesses. Just last week I was wanting to refer someone to a restaurant in my neighborhood and I couldn't remember its exact name. I fired up big G and entered "tapas" and the name of neighborhood ... TAH DAHHHH! That restaurant gained a few customers that evening. I live in NYC US and it's easy to forget where things are, given the density.

The week before that I was working with a client on his website and I realized I had not taken the OTC allergy meds that get me through our summer season. What did I do? Fired up the big G again and ... TAH DAHHHH! I found me a pharmacy within a few blocks so I could relieve my symptoms and get back to work with my client.

I did ask someone in that office if there was a pharmacy nearby and was told yes, at 43rd & Madison. I walked a couple of blocks to that location and there was no pharmacy anywhere. I didn't have time to wander around Midtown Manhattan, so I went back to the client's office, had a meeting, consulted the SE and walked over to the store to get the pills.

Last example: a few weeks ago I was looking on a SE for the local green markets so I could check their schedules. I always have to plan my green market visits since there are none in my immediate area. Anyway, guess what I discovered? A brand new green market 3 blocks from me. Turns out they had been there for 6 weeks or so but since I never walk in that direction I was unaware of it. I now go there twice per week and spend quite a bit of cash.

I'm no expert on sweet shops in Spain, nor the proclivities of that market, but I have a hard time believing that they couldn't be helped to some degree by having an effective, relevant online presence. Again, since we've not seen the site in question, there's no way to begin to understand if it might suit basic needs and SEO standards.

That said, I see no reason that a good web dev team shouldn't be compensated well for good work. Again, we don't know if the work was good or not ... just sayin'

Best wishes.

[Hillbilly Marketer]

Whoooo weeee, lookie here whut I dun founded! 'Nother commencement rite full of angry an discord! Ole Hillbilly jest be a lovin' these here kinds of commencing an I don't never pass one up without a sayin my piece.

Problem is, I jest cain't figger out whut my 'pinion of the subject is cause I cain't tell whut the popular 'pinion is (see thut thar is how I decide which side of the fence I falled on cause I jest agree wiffin the majority) I jest ain't seein no majority. One folks posts one thang an all the people post their thank ye kindlys. Then, sumbody else dun come along and be a sayin sumthin different and then a bunch more folk be a givin THEM thar thank ye's. How in tarnation kin I decide which side I be on iffin yew folk cain't make up yer minds which side a the fence ya'll are on?

Now I jest gots ta say thut one folk dun made a mity profecund commencement an I has been stucked on it few a while...

Art, can I ask you 1 question? Am I invisible?

Bev, I dun gots ta be a sayin thut Imma STIHL tryin ta figger out the answer ta thut one. Thut thar is deeper'n Allen Says pocket book an I will be a lettin yew know the answer whenst I gits it figgered out!

[ChrisByrns]

DON'T PANIC!

[David McGimpsey]

Originally Posted by artwebster

Pick and mix sweet shops do not get searched for in Google.

Probably correct.

Originally Posted by artwebster

Let's clear up something that seems to be accepted by so many people - local services do not get searched for in Google!

I don't agree with this, from personal experience:

I set up a simple website as an SEO experiement for my father's local business (he runs a local sandblasting business)

He has received at least four clients through this website.

[tlcmkt]

I agree this ticks me off as well I work with offline businesses to help them with their web presence, but I do my best to never give them false expectations. This kind of garbage gives the rest of us a bad name.

The average client has no idea of what they are doing. This happened to a client of mine recently. he was contacted by a "SEO" Firm telling him they would guarantee him #1 Rankings in Google. I looked at their portfolio sites and they were all built on the same template. All they did was optimize the title tag and build a bunch of backlinks, They werent even optimizing any of the subpages for keywords. Talk about pathetic.
Hopefully their sites will get penalized by Google for duplicate content.

[Chuck Staff]

.

Originally Posted by artwebster

Stupid of me.

Well stated.
.

[jan roos]

Originally Posted by Rezbi

Art,

I have to agree with you here... I don't see why such a shop even needs a site at such an early stage.

I had a school ask me to do a site for them as they think it's SO important for marketing.

I had to explain to them that a web site is not a marketing tool but just another shop on the web.

You have to then do the marketing to get that known as well.

Unfortunately, scam artists will say anything to make a quick buck.

Some might say it's not much money, but it bloody well is if it's unnecessary expense.

What if that website can collect email addresses and folow up with customers letting them know about new chocolates that just came in and special prices etc. Would a $1000 still seem a lot if the business owner aquires a list of a few thousand in the next 2 to 3 years?

[artwebster]

I really am shocked at what has happened in this thread.

It has been a surprise to discover that many people here do not understand English and will try to defend something that really is indefensible.

Of course you haven't seen this couple's web site! What sort of man do you think I am? Do you honestly think that I would call out the guy who sold it to them, question him in front of his clients and then let him go off on his merry way without making full restitution? The guy admitted (as I stated very early on) that he had overstepped the mark. He gave a full refund and took the site down. No doubt the domain will be used for another, more suitable sweet shop so what is the point of giving the url?

The level of debate here has descended to ridiculous depths and the way I have been vilified, been accused of being a troll, been officially warned about having 'insulted' other members while the person who issued that warning went on to deliberately insult me tells me that no matter what is spoken of - open minds are in short supply and the 'victim' mentality roams abroad.

Bev, I read your post and, to be blunt, I did not see what response you could have expected. Ok, so all in your gathering said that they did not search Yellow Pages but all in your gathering said that they used Google - what other response would you have expected considering what you were probably going to talk to them about? I did accept that maybe there were places where Google was the information source of choice for local services even though I find it difficult to believe.

Brian has explained some of my circumstances but it really does beggar belief that a signature that has been in use for seven months should suddenly be seen as some sort of indication that my initial report was nothing more than a promotion for something you know nothing about and, worse, draw conclusions about based upon your own prejudices. Yes, look at the site and tell me what you find that is anything like the rip off I have described. My training is to show people how to demonstrate real, cash in hand savings as early as next week while probably finding real cash customers. I don't use any mumbo jumbo and IM tricks to try to convince business owners of a possible long term gain - I show the gain in money terms and tell when the gain will be made. Not only that, none of my clients has to pay one cent that is not out of the real cash savings so, no matter what I charge, they have more cash in hand.

My report was of a specific and particularly bad example of a rip off artist at work. It was a call to all of us working in the offline market to be aware of what we are doing, why we are doing it and not to simply go out there with an agenda that was simply to obtain as much as possible no matter how unprofessional our actions might be.

Naturally I used generalisations in what I wrote but the responses have shown that generalisations in this forum are taken as personal attacks. I feel very strongly about the way local businesses are being exploited - and even more strongly about some of the boasting and bragging that has been blatently displayed in this and other forums.

I find that the level of breast beating and rampart building that has been displayed only goes to show that what I had to say hit a sore spot and some people recognised themselves and simply lashed out in self defence. That is a very sad conclusion to have to draw.

[success_wins]

Brutal Honest observation,
Local business can an do get new customers from websites.
Offline marketers can and do focus on increasing profits and keeping clients informed.
Creating content to focus on local areas do benefit companies, prospects and clients.
Building a business is not for everyone.
There are people who have questionable ethics.
There are people who don't deal fairly.
There are people who don't know how to use internet marketing methods to build local businesses.
There are people who are open to new ideas, and people who resist new ideas.
We all have different experiences and knowledge and can learn to be successful by studying people who are successful.
A confused mind says no.
A closed mind says its impossible.


Proverbs 23:9

[Scott Stamper]

While I don't know if marketing on the internet will make them rich, I can see how it could be a profitable part of their marketing.

Just off the top of my head I would give the following advice...

1. When a visitor comes into the shop, have a sign-in book and offer a free sweet if they sign in and list their email address. If there are 100 visitors a day, you are talking about growing a list of 36,500 every year. Then every week send out an email blast with the stores latest offer. You will sell out the store every Mother's day, Valentines day, etc. Be sure to have an affiliate program for a candy delivery service that customers from out of town can use.

2. Use Google Adwords and Geo-Target the ads to 15 miles (or so) around the store and only for browsers set to Spanish. Then bid on relative keywords like "candy". Bid only on the Content Network (that's right... the content network) and put the stores name into title of the ad along with a description of the store. You are now branding the store. Here's the key... design the ad so that people WILL NOT click on it. Google does not drop ads from the content network that don't get clicked on -- so you are getting free branding to spanish speaking people within a 10 mile radius of the store... for free.

And there are hundreds of other ways to use the internet to market a small retail store.

[Vikuna2009+]

Originally Posted by Hillbilly Marketer

Whoooo weeee, lookie here whut I dun founded! 'Nother commencement rite full of angry an discord! Ole Hillbilly jest be a lovin' these here kinds of commencing an I don't never pass one up without a sayin my piece.

Problem is, I jest cain't figger out whut my 'pinion of the subject is cause I cain't tell whut the popular 'pinion is (see thut thar is how I decide which side of the fence I falled on cause I jest agree wiffin the majority) I jest ain't seein no majority. One folks posts one thang an all the people post their thank ye kindlys. Then, sumbody else dun come along and be a sayin sumthin different and then a bunch more folk be a givin THEM thar thank ye's. How in tarnation kin I decide which side I be on iffin yew folk cain't make up yer minds which side a the fence ya'll are on?

Now I jest gots ta say thut one folk dun made a mity profecund commencement an I has been stucked on it few a while...

Bev, I dun gots ta be a sayin thut Imma STIHL tryin ta figger out the answer ta thut one. Thut thar is deeper'n Allen Says pocket book an I will be a lettin yew know the answer whenst I gits it figgered out!

Jag forstor att det ar inte latt for dej, men slosa inte min tid med att lasa allt vad du skrev, hold back on the brew mate ....

[John Taylor]

Art,

Originally Posted by artwebster

Pick and mix sweet shops do not get searched for in Google. Nobody wanting to buy some sweets plans the purchase in advance - they buy them on impulse from the shop as they go past or walk to the shop from their home as the fancy takes them.

Pick and mix sweet shops do get searched for
in Google. There are over 4,000,000 results
and several Adwords ads.

There were 5,400 local searches for the term
"Pic N Mix" during the month of June.

I'd suggest that a little research would turn
up several specialist websites from which you
and your clients could harvest a number of
ideas to develop an online presence.

For example this site offers some interesting
packages: Handy Candy

John

[Scott Stamper]

Originally Posted by John Taylor

Pick and mix sweet shops do get searched for
in Google. There are over 4,000,000 results
and several Adwords ads.

John's right.

I just ran a quick using Google's KWT and phrases like Pick and Mix was searched 9,900 times, pic 'n' mix was searched 14,800 times and many other variations.

Obviously there are probably hundreds or even thousands of relative keyword phrases for this business that do get searched.

As for the notion that the internet can't help a small brick and morter business, I only have to refer you to CNBC where all the time you see stories about small mom-and-pop shops that have used the internet to grow their businesses to multi-million empires.