I have never been fond of offline cash cow proponents - but this made me sick!

[Rezbi]

I think what it boils down to is not whether or not businesses of this type have a presence on the web...

It's whether or not this specific business needs it.

If not, they should not be duped into believing a web presence will be of benefit to them if that's not the case.

Every case needs to be assessed on its own merit.

As Art mentions, the person who sold them the site admitted the error and refunded them.

I think that in itself proves Art's point.

Every other argument is now irrelevant, IMO.

[artwebster]

Pick and mix sweet shops do get searched for
in Google. There are over 4,000,000 results
and several Adwords ads.

I'm sure that this was one of the convincing arguments put forward in this case and is as spurious for you to use as it was the rip-off artist.

If you Google 'pick and mix sweet shops in Spain' - the results are mostly for English shops in England (the exception is an advert for ING Bank). Try any search term that you can derive from this search and you will not find any Spanish sweet shops on the first page and probably not on the first several pages.

Assuming that your results reflect the situation I reported on was just a bit short sighted and indicative of a desire to prove me wrong rather than to make a valid point. I suppose, since I am in Spain, the chances are that my search for Spanish sweet shops would be more effective than yours.

Searching the term you used - pick and mix sweet shops - returns 447,000 results and I have not found a single Spanish shop on the first ten pages!

I don't suppose the language has anything to do with it?

Again, I have been remiss in assuming that readers would understand that I know what I am talking about and that they should do just a little research before finding more calumny to heap upon my head.

[artwebster]

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Taylor
Pick and mix sweet shops do get searched for
in Google. There are over 4,000,000 results
and several Adwords ads.

John's right.

I just ran a quick using Google's KWT and phrases like Pick and Mix was searched 9,900 times, pic 'n' mix was searched 14,800 times and many other variations.

Obviously there are probably hundreds or even thousands of relative keyword phrases for this business that do get searched.

As for the notion that the internet can't help a small brick and morter business, I only have to refer you to CNBC where all the time you see stories about small mom-and-pop shops that have used the internet to grow their businesses to multi-million empires.

Oh boy!!!

What a pity I was posting my response while you were posting this!

How many stories do NOT get reported on CNBC where Mom & Pop shops have been driven to the wall by unscrupulous web site sellers?

[John Taylor]

Art,

My response was in no way intended to
"prove you wrong" it was intended to
offer some assistance in helping your clients.

That's why I provided the additional info
that you have chosen not to quote.



John

[Andyhenry]

Hey Art,

I can completely understand where you're coming from. I've seen many small businesses ripped off by IMers that don't give a crap about making them money and just want to sell them the illusion of adding a profitable component to their business.

The BS about No.1 in Google is a classic alarm bell.

However, with that said - I do believe that even a business such as a sweet shop can still benefit from a website and mailing list.

There may be customers who were regulars but move away and would still like to get their favourite sweets from their favourite shop and would order online. There's also the usual customers but who would just like the option to purchase from home or order sweets for friends online.

I have a friend who orders big jars of sweets online because the shop that stocks what he likes is not near where he lives and he likes to order a big jar like the shop has on the shelf.

Then there's the email side of things and the ability to contact customers with offers and notifications of new products etc.

So I can imagine there is scope to increase their business with a web presence, but I agree about the approach you've mentioned was probably just someone selling websites and email lists with no actual real intention (or perhaps ability) to help this business make money.

There are a lot of people around selling such stuff who've never made any real money from websites but still think they're expert enough to sell the idea to others and just deliver the mechanisms with the idea that if it doesn't improve customers or revenue that's not their problem and they still make their money.

Andy

[artwebster]

Originally Posted by John Taylor

Art,

My response was in no way intended to
"prove you wrong" it was intended to
offer some assistance in helping your clients.

That's why I provided the additional info
that you have chosen not to quote.



John

Pick and mix sweet shops do get searched for
in Google. There are over 4,000,000 results
and several Adwords ads.

There were 5,400 local searches for the term
"Pic N Mix" during the month of June.

I'd suggest that a little research would turn
up several specialist websites from which you
and your clients could harvest a number of
ideas to develop an online presence.

For example this site offers some interesting
packages: Handy Candy

OK. Now I have quoted your post in full.

The search will still produce no results and the rest of what you said was a bit like saying that if you make a mess of things there is always something you can say to try to justify having said it.

This web site should not have been sold.
This shop is one of hundreds like it that have very loyal and local support.
This young couple did not know the right questions to ask and made a mistake.
After a year of trading and a little more exposure to all of the salesmen who will try to sell them all sorts of stuff they will be wiser.
After a year of trading they will be able to see how they can think about expanding what they are doing.
Over the next three weeks they will be talking to their suppliers to create a more ambitious business plan if they can get the extra 60sq mts that might become available in September.
Over the next year, while they are developing their offline presence, maybe they will be able to think about an online presence to diversify.

[Martin Luxton]

Art,

People are trying help you (and, by association, your friends).

Why are you naysaying so many things?

Why can't you just put up a holding website for them? Even if they do nothing with it right now, if they pay just 20 dollars for a 2 year registration and you host it for them that will stand them in good stead with the search engines in the future.

Look, with unemployment figures of 17.4% and rising

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/25/bu.../25euecon.html

can any business in Spain afford NOT to be on the internet?

And pronto?

Martin

[John Durham]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

The First assumption the OP is off with, is that the site is a waste and there is no way it could help them...Using OP's logic if I were to buy a cash register for $500 the cash register itself would have to generate income of over $5000 or its a rip off, Shame on the cash register people for ripping off poor innocent shop keepers

I don't know if that's the best analogy Mark, but sure I'll buy it lol

"Not having a cash register" will prob cost you more than 5k per month.

[gjabiz]

There are some sparkling responses in this thread. Here is an idea for one or two of you, take it and run with it.

I am an Independent Marketing Appraiser. When I get called in to help a business, they have already been beaten up by the Yellow Pages salesperson, the radio account rep, the newspaper rep, the local coupon book, any print media in town that sells advertising, TV reps and now, what I'm seeing more and more...is the Internet Marketing Rep...

The IM Rep will help you get a top Google ranking. OR give you X number of impressions or ads or whatever...and folks, and you can mark this down...

we are just in the BEGINNING of an explosion of "How to Help OFFLINE businesses get Net savvy". You will see scores of new reports, new experts, new online strategies for the OFFLINE business. Why? Because, still, that is where the money is. Small businesses need customers and are for the most part, not very good at getting them.

Enter the INDEPENDENT Marketing Appraiser (this could be YOU). When I go into a business, I look at what that biz is doing to bring in customers, I see how much of that
"marketing" is budgeted, where the money goes and what it brings in. Then a look at the "books", but you have to know what you are looking for...which, I'm going to say MOST of the noobs selling IM to OFFLINE have no business background and therefore couldn't read a balance sheet if their life depended on it....NOT all, of course. But too damn many.

Since I don't have any services to sell, and I work only by referral, the business owner knows I'm WORKING IN HIS BEST INTEREST. And when you put your customer first, when you make your "prospect your product", and your goal is to help that person without prejudice or vested interest, then you will never have to look for clients, they will find you.

Some of the posts in this thread talk about it, and it is more than a theory, working for your customer, putting your client's interest ahead of your own, is a tested and proven way to conduct your business which has withstood the test of time.

So many WSO's etc, have been about how much money YOU will make when you call upon local businesses. I never think that. NEVER.

My total attention is on: What (if anything) can I do to help this person achieve his goal?

Carry that into any business and you will never have to buy another WSO on how to make gazillions with OFFLINE businesses.

gjabiz

[Matt Maiden]

Originally Posted by artwebster

This young couple did not know the right questions to ask and made a mistake.

This is the crux of it right there.

Most here agree that ripping people off is bad.

There are bad people out there and I don't believe coming here and shaming bad people into not being bad works. They are going to continue being bad and looking for ways to rip people off.

One of the most efficient ways to rip people off is to take advantage of naivety and ignorance.

Ignorant and naive people are not bad but they do make bad decisions.

If good people continue to make bad business decisions sooner or later they get ripped off.

At what point do we quit looking at people who make bad business decisions as victims and start looking at them as unwise to be in business?

Matt

[James Schramko]

"This sort of shop will never benefit from online marketing".... in its current form however they could take a good look at what comes before or after their services and products and start working those angles online.

There are too many opportunities to list here but there is some good money to be made in this niche with the right approach.

Agreed they currently have the wrong approach and the wrong IM adviser. A survey is a great way to determine suitability for all parties.

I guess this website operator does not work on the referral method...

[JohnMcCabe]

Originally Posted by Scott Stamper

1. When a visitor comes into the shop, have a sign-in book and offer a free sweet if they sign in and list their email address. If there are 100 visitors a day, you are talking about growing a list of 36,500 every year. Then every week send out an email blast with the stores latest offer. You will sell out the store every Mother's day, Valentines day, etc. Be sure to have an affiliate program for a candy delivery service that customers from out of town can use.

Scott, you might want to check your assumptions. Yes, 365x100 = 36,500. But your example assumes that 100 new and unique visitors both stop at a shop and sign the guest book. The reality for a local shop is that the list might end up more like 3,650.

Of course, new customers are only one part of the equation for increasing profits...

For those with a fixation on finding new customers (the business newbies, not targeting anyone specific) it's often more profitable to look for ways to increase the average sale and to increase the frequency of buying by regular customers.

In the case of a candy shop, that might mean getting your every-other-week customer to stop every week. Or getting your 1/4 pound of hard candy buyer to throw in a chocolate bar or a soda.

The important numbers are the (hopefully black) ones on the bottom of the balance sheet, the P&L and the cash flow statement...

Originally Posted by Matthew Maiden

At what point do we quit looking at people who make bad business decisions as victims and start looking at them as unwise to be in business?

When they make the same mistake repeatedly.

Art, since you're closer to the situation than I, I'll defer to your judgment that this particular shop doesn't "need" a website. In spite of the benefits a simple, inexpensive site could provide at some point.

However, I believe you owe it to the owners to encourage them to keep an open mind in the future. As you obviously have their best interests at heart, you don't want them to end up like the cat in Ben Franklin's proverb...

"A cat who sits on a hot stove once will never do it again. Nor will she sit on a cold one."

[Mark Riddle]

John is giving good solid advice.

There are many methods that I used in my shop to increase both the frequency of visits and the average amount of sale.

One Item was I would buy little plastic toys and had the toy bucket on the counter with a sign "One free toy with each item purchased".

These are the trinket kind of toys that could be bought by the gross mostly under $1 gross, all were under $2 a gross.

We would monitor what kinds of toys were attracting attention, and which just sat there.

With the toys that just sat there and weren't popular, we would collect them and put them in a different bucket,

From time to time we would give people a choice of One toy per purchase from one OR Choose 5 Toys per purchase from the other bucket.

For example we would promote July XX-XX stop by and get up to 5 toys per purchase - While supply lasts!


It was always a success.

I thought it was interesting the number of grown ups that would come in go through the buckets and get toys, you could go into shops and offices all over town and you could see desks covered with these little trinket toys.

Mark Riddle

[George Wright]

Originally Posted by artwebster

Pick and mix sweet shops do get searched for
in Google. There are over 4,000,000 results
and several Adwords ads.

There were 5,400 local searches for the term
"Pic N Mix" during the month of June.

I'd suggest that a little research would turn
up several specialist websites from which you
and your clients could harvest a number of
ideas to develop an online presence.

For example this site offers some interesting
packages: Handy Candy

OK. Now I have quoted your post in full.

The search will still produce no results ...

Hi,

Could it be that the reason the search will produce no results is because your friends took down their website?

Could it be that the "rip off artist" agreed to a refund and gave up on trying to do business with your friend simply because he didn't want to be bothered with what he perceived to be verbal abuse? He will probably use the URL and site for another sweet shop, so he cut his loses and moved on.

In my personal case, and I do admit I do this for money, I have customers that are high in the SEs because they have the only site in thier niche in their area. If they didn't have a site there would be no results at all, save the 4 line online Yellow book results.

Also in my case I've had "deal killers" (friends and relatives and other well meaning business acquaintances of the person I was trying to in their view, "victimize") start to bombard me with rude questions (not saying you did this, just saying it happened to me) where I pulled out simply because I didn't want to be bothered trying to make a paltry sum because it was just better for all involved for me to move on and not try to "rip off" this poor "victim," who by the way was upset with me when he saw his competitor with "his site." (He actually asked me "How could you give him my site." Well, it wasn't his site because his friend talked him out of getting it.) Of course now I'm a bad person because I didn't try harder to "make" them take my service. Didn't have the "best interest" of that client in mind. "My fault" they didn't get the site and don't have high placement on Google." D if you do and D if you don't.

Others here have listed more than enough reasons for your friends having a website so I'll not repeat those reasons. I'll add one, your friends wanted a website, they were proud of it and it made them feel good. I've been reprimanded before for catering to this "ego" factor. However, people have a lot of things they don't need, but, want because it makes them feel good. It's not the only reason or even the main reason but it is still one reason to provide them a site.

George Wright

[skydivedad]

It certainly doesn't help anyone here to paint Offline Gold Consultants with a broad brush of scamster. I've been involved with Small Business Consulting and Sales since the mid 1980's and have spoken to 10's of thousands of small business owners about sales and marketing both online and off. Specifically we've been offering online Marketing services since 2003. I only ever use the term "Offline Gold" here on the Warrior Forum and with our WSO offerings. Believe me business owners have no idea what "Offline Gold" means.

Our firm has been a Charter Member and we're a Certified SEO Firm. Unfortunately many of our competitors are not especially in the last few years as SEO and many other services are being offered by offshore firms and people fresh to the business. I encourage every Warrior offering "Offline Gold" consulting to consider becoming "Certified" in SEO and other Sales and Marketing Consulting activities.

Professional Certifications involve practicing and adhering to a Code of Ethics. Both certifications involve study and an ongoing commitment to stay current in the industry. It takes time and effort but your clients deserve the best "You" you can be. As an example if we're doing SEO for an Italian Restaurant how in good conscious could we enter into an SEO contract for another Italian Restaurant in the same market. You can't resolve that conflict of interest. Here's a small list of "Ethical" considerations an Offline Golder should always commit to practice in their consultancy. From the seocertification.org website

Principles for SEOcertification.org Certified Members
Disclose any conflict of interest as soon as you become aware of it.
Be truthful and accurate in all statements and other forms of communication made for professional purposes.
Accept responsibility for your actions, whether verbal, written or physical.
Acknowledge the work(s) of others and give them proper credit for their work.
Avoid false and misleading statements or malicious actions that might injure another person’s reputation or bring harm to their person or property.



Just because other companies in your area don't adhere to these principal is not an excuse or an open license for you to ignore them as well. Just because a prospect doesn't understand all the minutia of online marketing isn't a license to take advantage of them. Your job should be to be an advocate of your client and to act in their best interest, just because you can make a profit deploying a certain marketing platform doesn't make it a proper fit for their needs.

All The Best
Paul

[PhiltheBear]

Having just read this whole thread from start to finish I find it interesting that the lack of 'real' information has lead people to offer all sorts of suggestions which may, or may not, be relevant.

One of the things I do is create websites for small local companies. Generally these are 'brochure' sites for 'service' companies like dentists, lawyers, surveyors, etc. I can use readily available templates, the client supplies copy/photos (which I edit) and I can put together a site in under a day. I know that the likelihood of me doing any maintenance during a year is low - maybe change of hours/personnel/address/phone number at most. I also know that the reason the majority of these companies want a site is that they want to be found by local people. They aren't looking to sell all over the world. They don't want or need to send out promotional emails to people who have found their sites.

What they want is simply to be found, rather like being found in a telephone book/yellow pages, when someone wants their service in a particular geographical area. I charge these clients about £100 for the initial design and £50 per page of the site. I host and maintain for £20 a month. I also charge them £20 for getting the domain name - which I own

I get their sites on page one of Google - usually at position one or two. They are happy - because they get business. I'm happy because I make a very small profit on the set up and then a continuing profit on a monthly basis for pretty much zero effort.

There are other clients I've dealt with who want the online shop, who want to sell their products all over the world, and who are having to pay a great deal more.

It strikes me that the sweet shop that started this discussion is more like one of my 'service' type clients. They aren't going to want to worry about updating their website with the stock of sweets they've got - they simply want to tell local customers that if they are looking for a sweet shop in xyz area then there they are.

If that's the case then, IMHO, the original vendor ripped them off. However, if they genuinely wanted to sell sweets by mail-order (which I doubt), or attract people from miles around (which they probably wouldn't) then maybe what they were charged reflected the complexity of those situations.

Unfortunately, unless the whole picture is laid out, I don't think it's possible to judge.

[EdKirby]

I've been an e commerce consultant for about 10 years now working with large companies building middleware applications but I've recently turned my attention to working with SMEs to help them get online, the so-called "offline cash cow" business model. For years I've been searching for a way to "get local" with my own business and I think I've finally found it.

But not once, though, did it ever enter my mind to fleece local businesses nor has it been suggested by the folks I follow in this regard. I guess it boils down to what are appropriate business practices and thinking of your client's needs first. I believe that this is more of a personal attribute of the individual rather than a shoddy business model and it's implementation.

Before any consulting arrangement can be made a discovery process should occur to find the areas that are causing pain, what the prospects goals are and where the potential client may benefit by the services offered. The consultant should be prepared to walk away with their reputation intact if they can't bring value.

I'll admit that there are individuals out there that will abuse their customers and it looks like that may be the case here but it's unfair to paint everyone with the same brush so I can understand some of the backlash to the OP. Heck, I certainly don't want to hurt anyone.

That being said, Art, what are you doing for your friends to turn this around for them? I know that you said that they serve the local market but maybe it's time to cast a broader net? I'm legitimately curious. If they were my friends I would be trying to turn their "lemons into lemonade" as it were.

On the local search question, I use Google exclusively. I haven't even opened a YP in years. The only reason we still have them around the house is that my daughter uses them to stand on to reach things. I suppose that if I were into chocolates and candy that I would search on Google for that too. Just my 2 cents on that.

Cheers,