I have never been fond of offline cash cow proponents - but this made me sick!

[artwebster]

Yesterday I was lucky enough to be able to go out and visit one of my local shops.

I wish I hadn’t!

Listen guys! I know that you all want to make money and I know that many of you want to do it in the offline arena BUT DO YOU REALLY HAVE TO RIP YOUR CLIENTS OFF?

The shop I visited is run by a brother and sister and sells sweets. The sweets they sell are of the pick and mix type, displayed in transparent dispensers that customers can make a selection out of. You know the style, a couple of those, a few of those and lots of those because I really like them!

Alongside these sweets they also sell a selection of proprietary chocolate bars, packets of crisps (potato chips) and cans of soft drink.

This little shop is their first commercial venture and they have received and acted on a lot of good advice – some from their immediate competition – in the six months they have been trading!

Because they know that I used to work with local shop keepers, they asked me to look at their latest ‘investment’ – a web site of their own that was going to transform their business! They were so pleased to be Nº1 on Google and were able to quote, almost verbatim, the b.s. that the marketer had fed them. They were going to crush the competition because every time somebody searched for ‘sweets’ online, their site would pop up and they would win a new customer.

I was absolutely livid! Never in all my days of spotting scams on this coast of Spain had I seen such a blatant rip off!

This sort of shop will never benefit from online marketing because they serve a very specific niche, the children of the local urbanizations, the parents of the children of the local urbanizations, the grand parents of the children of the local urbanizations and passing traffic. No matter what searches people did for sweets or confectionary online, this couple’s web site was never Nº1 unless a very specific search term in quotations was used – IN ENGLISH!!!!! Since 90% of the people in this area are Spanish speakers . . . . . do I have to draw a picture?

This couple had been charged €1,000 ($1395.91) for their web site and €100 ($139.59) a month to maintain it and build a mailing list. With a POR of 9%, this web site has to provide €1,111 ($1,550.94) extra sales per month for the bottom line to be maintained. This simply WILL NOT happen!

If you are going to try to help offline businesses, help them, don’t rip them off and make false promises or someone else, just like me, might call you to the shop and ask you some pertinent question while your client looks on and becomes more and more disillusioned.

[Magic Johnson]

This is so normal here, I suppose a wild spread concept, there are a lot of Hype going on, on this forum. "Excuste Me" but it has to be said.

And I shouldn't have to excuse myself. I am soly for quality posts, and lessons, as teachers, not pikers.

We can't abuse the system for as long, as it has been abused.

We aren't all Experts, can we grasp this, will we ever get it?????

After reading a book on offline gold, we can't assume that we know how to manage a company and work as an web consult, and set up a PROFITABLE web site.

What do we know about business building and marketing, more than selling our own, then "over" priced services, I believe it's time we fire off bullets..

This place, have become more about making quick bucks, than long term business, and strategic knowledge, marketing and concepts.

I have been studying my ass in this field, since June, 2001.

And people think they are an expert after they have read ONE ebook??

And that's why I spend less time on here.

There are a whole bunch of amateurs in this place.

It's simple, I have out grown the majority of members around
here, and then it's time to move on, for me, to find new
adventures.

[Vince Runza Online]

Speaking to you as an offline business consultant, this is a prime example of why many small businesses don't trust "SEO Experts" and "Web Developers".

[prosperwithdnb]

We are trying to help business owners and with offline marketing. Major companies like y-pages are charging 2000 for a full page ad or 2000 for one video. So if you are so upset why not go to y-pages and tell them the exact same thing your upset about

[Magic Johnson]

Originally Posted by prosperwithdnb

We are trying to help business owners and with offline marketing. Major companies like y-pages are charging 2000 for a full page ad or 2000 for one video. So if you are so upset why not go to y-pages and tell them the exact same thing your upset about

YellowPages obviously brings a lot of phone calls and business. And we know what we get for our money. Just as with all advertising.

Web consults, and selling advertising, are two Different things. Apples & Oranges.

But let me ask you a simple question, what do you know about YellowPages advertising? And if you have helped businesses generate sales, good for you.

But Why are you now here defending yourself, you obviously don't have a idea how to bring in sales, if you have to defend yourself that is, otherwise you had shut you tiny mouth and continue on to "help" businesses.

Trying isn't good enough. If you want to make any real money, learn the how to and stop trying.

Otherwise you are just a rip off artist.

[AndrewCavanagh]

There is a lot of this going on and it's not pretty.

The bottom line...as I've tried to tell people over and over...is to help businesses make real sales and profits.

Getting hired is not especially difficult if you put in some effort.

But if you really want a successful career working with businesses then it helps enormously if you actually help them make real profits...then they're likely to hire you over and over for project after project.

Incidentally this kind of thing has been going on years before internet marketing was even conceived.

In the early days of the internet many web design firms made a killing selling websites that did very little to businesses...many still do.



I do have to disagree with you on one thing you say though.

To suggest that a sweet store could never benefit from internet marketing just shows a lack of imagination.

This store could be capturing the email addresses of its customers and following up with them periodically with special promotions and deals to drive their customers into their store.

Many of their customers might also be great prospects for other businesses and they could be doing joint ventures with these businesses and arranging other gift offers for them sent by email etc etc.

I doubt that it would make a serious enough increase in profits to be worth the time of an experienced internet marketer but for someone starting out this could be a good low fee project to do in exchange for the experience and referrals.

The issue is not that internet marketing can't work for this kind of business it's just that what they've paid for is unlikely to make them a cent in extra sales and profits and it certainly won't cover the costs.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

[Hamish Jones]

Originally Posted by artwebster

This couple had been charged €1,000 ($1395.91) for their web site and €100 ($139.59) a month to maintain it and build a mailing list. With a POR of 9%, this web site has to provide €1,111 ($1,550.94) extra sales per month for the bottom line to be maintained. This simply WILL NOT happen!

What about buyer beware? Shouldn't the brother and sister owning the sweets shop have done some research before agreeing to such terms.

Maybe they are agreeable to the terms. Maybe they are going to start selling sweets online. Maybe they just want to have a website because they think that it will make for a better overall impression of their business.

And, absolutely a sweets shop can have an online newsletter- how about advertising new stock, subscriber specials etc?

Yes, most of their customers may be local, but they are not going to be in store everyday. Keeping in touch online, even at $100 per month would probably be much cheaper than postage and printing for a physical newsletter.

I'm not saying that this will necessarily work for this business, but you do seem very quick to dismiss the current situation.

[Kevin Riley]

Hamish is correct with his assertion that the buyer must beware. In reality, the marketer did nothing illegal, BUT it is immoral. As marketers, we must consider how we want to run our business - as ruthless bastards who pillage and plunder the innocents, or as ethical marketers who build a business with a good reputation.

[Magic Johnson]

($139.59) a month to maintain

To maintain what?, it sure seems like money in to somebodies bank account.

Originally Posted by Hamish Jones

but you do seem very quick to dismiss the current situation.

And you do not, and you are the one, that have no clue of the circumstances on hand.

[Alexa Smith]

How on earth can someone running a local sweetshop in Spain imagine that the internet is going to be a source of customers through SERP's in English? Don't they know the first thing about who their own customers are?!

[Hamish Jones]

Originally Posted by Magic Johnson

To maintain what?, it sure seems like money in to somebodies bank account.

Hey, $139 per month to write a newsletter or two for a client, making sure it is fresh and interesting, and then sending it to the customer is quite cheap.

There are also hosting costs and autoresponder costs.

Originally Posted by Magic Johnson

And you do not, and you are the one, that have no clue of the circumstances on hand.

I admit I do not know the biz owners and who is selling to them.

They may have been sold a dream by some guy who doesn't really know what he is talking about. This would be unfortunate but the lolly shop owners still have a responsibility to do their due diligence before entering in to a contract, as they do with any of their other suppliers.

Having said that, I encourage all Warriors, new and old, to ensure that they act in the best interests of their clients. If you make your business and life about helping others to better themselves and their businesses, then you will have much success.

[Vince Runza Online]

Originally Posted by alexa_s

How on earth can someone running a local sweetshop in Spain imagine that the internet is going to be a source of customers through SERP's in English? Don't they know the first thing about who their own customers are?!

That's the point here: business owners know their business, but they don't necessarily know the basics of marketing. If a so-called "expert" touts the idea of ranking well in a foreign language, that's not necessarily the business owner's fault.

It's the ruddy snarf who "sold" them on ranking well in English who deserves the blame.

Having said that, to assert that there's NO value in using the Internet for a business like this is wrong-headed. A nice email marketing plan could deliver coupons, a newsletter on sweets and candy, announcements of upcoming seasonal merchandise offerings, etc.

Then there's the idea of blogging to develop a local following. I know at least one IM pro who has a blog devoted to the delightful subject of chocolate. While this blog isn't geo-located, it could promote local or regional businesses.

Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water...

[ExRat]

Hi Magic,

You make some strong points and have an unnecessarily unpleasant tone -

you obviously don't have a idea how to bring in sales

otherwise you had shut you tiny mouth

And you do not, and you are the one, that have no clue of the circumstances on hand.

You say -

YellowPages obviously brings a lot of phone calls and business. And we know what we get for our money. Just as with all advertising.

How many times have you tried yellow pages? I've worked for a similar business directory, and I've also placed adverts in the UK yellow pages that were a complete waste of time. It depends on the market. It's not obvious to me that with 'all advertising' 'we know what we get for our money.' That's obviously incorrect.

And that's why I spend less time on here.

There are a whole bunch of amateurs in this place.

It's simple, I have out grown the majority of members around
here, and then it's time to move on, for me, to find new
adventures.

That's fine. I understand some of your frustrations. But all business markets have scammers and hucksters operating in them and always have done. Unless I'm mistaken I don't think the OP was referring to a warrior providing the service, just a local shop close to him.

If everyone adopted your attitude, there wouldn't have been a warrior forum when you first arrived here. Therefore, there must be some warriors who have managed to get over the fact that every market will have scammers and hucksters, and that at times some of them will infiltrate here. Some warriors must have been able to see past that and continued to offer the right advice here, regardless of how many others weren't.

But if you feel that way about this place, fine. Just don't be surprised if you change your mind and decide to come back here for anything, if those of us with long memories remind you of your undignified and ungrateful sounding exit and parting shots.

[artwebster]

Some interesting reactions and the inevitable knee-jerk responses in defence.

I agree, due diligence should have been exercised before making a commitment but, heck, it is very easy for an internet marketer to simply do a snow-job on the innocent and convince them of anything using the right combination of acronyms.

People who are new in business have not developed the BS alerts the rest of us are blessed with and it can be made to sound reasonable about what a web site can do (look above - somebody tried here!). One of the things that I have been preaching for ever is the use of a good fact finding questionaire before trying to make a proposal.

In this particular case, no fact find was necessary - the marketer saw a patsy and dumped on it!

[BIG Mike]

Originally Posted by artwebster

Some interesting reactions and the inevitable knee-jerk responses in defence.

I agree, due diligence should have been exercised before making a commitment but, heck, it is very easy for an internet marketer to simply do a snow-job on the innocent and convince them of anything using the right combination of acronyms.

People who are new in business have not developed the BS alerts the rest of us are blessed with and it can be made to sound reasonable about what a web site can do (look above - somebody tried here!). One of the things that I have been preaching for ever is the use of a good fact finding questionaire before trying to make a proposal.

In this particular case, no fact find was necessary - the marketer saw a patsy and dumped on it!

I agree it's a shame they got taken and hopefully you'll help them minimize the loss from this point forward.

But I also have to agree that the shop owners have to take some responsibility for due diligence as well.

[CmdrStidd]

Artwebster, I do so hope that you apologised on behalf of those of us out here who are honest. I had the chance yesterday to charge a gentleman $2500 for working on his website. I told him that the best thing I could do for him would be to remove it from the web entirely. Like you, his was in a niche that could not be marketed online. It was far too narrow and specific even for the local market. I could not take his money in good conscience. (And Lord knows its not because I don't need it. LOL)

Over the last year he has paid close to $5000 for a site that was completely worthless. I doubt that the person that sold this site to him is a warrior and I would like to think that Warriors would have a greater degree of dignity about themselves but alas I am sure there is someone out there that will prove me wrong even with this.

[Vince Runza Online]

Originally Posted by artwebster

One of the things that I have been preaching for ever is the use of a good fact finding questionaire before trying to make a proposal.

1. Why are you in business for yourself? Why aren't you working for someone else, in the same business niche or industry?
2. What is your sales process?
3. How do you acquire new customers or clients now?
4. What is your business plan? Specifically, what is your Mission Statement? What do you deliver to your clients/customers above and beyond "quality at a fair price"?
5. How do you keep in touch with your current customers?
6. What's your most valuable/profitable merchandise, product or service?
7. Do you have any underused capacity that you'd like to scale up?
8. What causes you the most aggravation or frustration?
9. If you already have a website and/or email marketing strategy, how is it working?
10. Where will your business be in 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 5 years from now?
11. What is the "Lifetime value" of a new customer or client?
12. What is the profile of your "Ideal Customer"?
13. Do you have an ad budget? What is your ROAS (Return on Ad Spend)?
14. How's business?

Note Well -- these questions are not in the order I ask them. Actually, #14 is usually first.

Regards,
Vince Runza

[pizzatherapy]

As a business owner, I think it comes down to your ROI. If you invest $1,000 per month on an Internet Marketing package, if you made back at least $1,000 per month it would be worth it.

I have started to use skills I have developed as an Internet Marketer for off-line consulting.

Here is an example. One of my clients was paying $500 per month for his website and web hosting through a large commercial Internet marketing company. Now understand, this did not include an email marketing system, this was just for the hosting.

I told him I could do the same thing for a fraction of that. We signed a contract and I am now maintaining his website. I am also putting together an email marketing system for him.

I met with another potential client who was paying almost $6,000 per month for Yellow Page advertising. He explained it was a waste of money, so he cancelled the contract. I had to agree. I gave him an email marketing proposal which he may accept.

For me it really does come down to being honest and ethical.

I think CmdrStidd and Kevin Riley are right on.

If you are providing a service to businesses that actually helps them to make money your service is a worthwhile investment.

If you are able to help business owners maintain relationships with current customers as well as create new customers, through an email marketing system, you are providing something most business owners lack.

[Bev Clement]

I've just run a 2 day workshop with complete newbies. I asked the question, "How many of you use yellow pages?" and not a single person there uses them now.

They all use Google to find the services they want.

Here is a major problem I have with the offline/online that we see happening time and time again. People are using a script to talk to owners, and they get a cheque or contract and think it is wonderful. The problem is that they have no idea what to do next, and we often have them coming in here to find out what the next step is.

You don't need to know everything, but having a basic knowledge of what you are selling does help.

You are a service provider, and as such you should know how to get that service provided.

I saw someone (not on this forum) say they had told a client they could get them onto the 1st page of Google, made loads of promises, and then they asked this question on a forum. "How do I get Google to index my site?"

What, you promise you can get someone on page 1 and you don't know how to get your site indexed? See the biggest problem that people face.

The sad thing is, if a person was to say they were a writer, graphic designer or web designer here, people would ask to see samples, offline that doesn't happen too often, of they show the site of a friend and pretend it is theirs.

Offline consultants seem to get away with more than any other service provider.

There are amazing opportunities but at least get your basic knowledge sorted, before trying to sell a service you can't do yourself. That doesn't mean you can't outsource, but it does mean you need to understand it.

I was asked recently to give a price for a specific writing job which was going to pay around $1 a word. Would I do it myself or outsource it is immaterial, because the bottom line is the buck stops with me. I have to know enough about the subject to talk to the person.

We saw someone recently say they got a great contract, (low 4 figures) for the design of a website. They had been taught to throw up a cheap blog, and then use a template to change it. Only problem they didn't know there were other sites, and what they promised was a full ecommerce site with shopping cart, for not a good price at all.

[Tyrus Antas]

That's what happens when salespeople try entrepreneurship.

Tyrus

[Mark Riddle]

The First assumption the OP is off with, is that the site is a waste and there is no way it could help them.

I owned an ice cream popcorn shoppe for many years we also had candy the mark up for candy was a LOT more than what he is showing, that to me is truly dishonest.

Basic candy and fine chocolates don't have the same mark up.

Using OP's logic if I were to buy a cash register for $500 the cash register itself would have to generate income of over $5000 or its a rip off, Shame on the cash register people for ripping off poor innocent shop keepers.

To anyone here who has sold candy before, will find profit number in this post are truly laughable.

I don't know why the site targets English speakers, however to automatically say its a rip off seems a little quick on the draw.

I don't know how close the shop is to the American military bases or other groups that are made up of English speakers.

Back when I had my ice cream popcorn shoppe (we actually were a licensed dairy because we made our own ice cream)

There were so many people that would come in saying that it will never make it, there is no way you can make it in this town, every business in this located is closed within a few months.

Many of them had long drawn out, carefully reasoned arguments of why it would never work etc.

Needless to say they didn't know what they were talking about.

When a Baskins and Robbins came to town in a supposed better location, the fear mongers would come in and ask what I was going to do now?

I would say Nothing different.

The franchisee came into our shop once and yelled at my manager frustrated because we didn't just go away, How can you make a profit with your low prices etc.

And as you might have guessed the baskin robbins store was gone in less than a year, and we were doing business as normal.


Mark Riddle

[artwebster]

The First assumption the OP is off with, is that the site is a waste and there is no way it could help them.

I owned an ice cream popcorn shoppe for many years we also had candy the mark up for candy was a LOT more than what he is showing, that to me is truly dishonest.

Let's get something straight here. I do not and never have said anything that I could not support.

This particular shop is making a POR of just under 9% - I have checked their accounts and confirmed that as part of my attempt to answer their questions about their web site.

If you were in business you will know that POR is not mark-up and calling me dishonest because of your history is, to say the very least, damned rude!

Anybody who has any idea at all about the type of shop I described will agree with me that it should never have been targeted by the ignoramus that tried to rip the owners off - and even he had the common sense to see that he had stepped over the mark.

Anybody who has been in business will know the absolute insanity of trying to compare the cost of a capital asset with the cost of stock in trade. (For those who can, compare current assets with fixed assets on a balance sheet and you will know why).

I raised this as an example of how not to behave in the offline world because I was so disgusted by what I saw had been done. I could have written a full discourse on exactly why the web site would not help this couple but, stupid of me, I know, I had assumed that readers would be able to see that for themselves.

Just as a small additional point because I know so many of you believe that using the town name in a long tail keyword is a guarantee of getting to Nº1 on Google - look at where I live and then find me a single long tail keyword relating to the sale of confectionary that would even get in the first ten pages of results, let alone the top of page one without being in quotation marks.

I started to look to see where the nearest American base is! Yes! I walked into your smoke screen and discovered the red herring you were smoking!

I also nearly fell for the one about basic candy and fine chocolate.

I'm definitely not having a good day but, hell, obfuscate all you like and defend the indefensible. Whatever turns you on.

[JohnMcCabe]

One thing I've noted, both here and in doing research on my local competition is the almost slavish devotion to "getting on page one of Google"...especially for a single term like [business type] [city].

Yes, that may pull in a few of the people who in the past would have used the Yellow Pages for an immediate need. But you have to remember and consider that even if you do get to the top ranking on page one, there are at least nine other listings, plus the paid ads if you're in a larger city or a high-end niche.

So that single top ranking for one keyword may have to compete with 19 other listings. Once you get that top listing, you have to make it stand out and get the click, then make the sale.

"Number One on Google" is NOT the Holy Grail!

If you understand marketing and at least a little about how small businesses are managed (or mismanaged), there are so many more things you can do to add value - and profits.

Some have been mentioned here - list building, email-based couponing, relationship building.

For a sweet shop, it may be adding an ecommerce component so they can try to expand beyond the local trading area (see Fields, Debbie).

There's testing so that the offline ads they do place are more effective, whether that's a YP ad, a TV or radio spot or a print ad in a local paper.

There's also great value in passing on concepts like limited testing before committing to a full-scale roll-out recommended by that ad salesman that wandered in the other day.

Here's a clue - there's much more potential profit in being a trusted adviser over a long period than there is in a quick hit selling a single service.

I'll quit now, before I stomp a hole in this soapbox...

[Palo Coyote]

Hi Art Webster,
Your headline says that you don’t like “offline cash cow proponents.” I’m glad I’m not one of those people. Oh, I’ve owned an Ad Agency for the past 21 years and we are Internet Marketing Specialists so maybe I AM one of those unlikable people.

My response here is not knee-jerk, I’ve thought about your post and read the responses and am simply offering my ideas. Many of the responses were very well thought out and excellently written, great info.

First, it appears that the people who sold your friends were thinking of their OWN profits first, don’t care about word-of-mouth referrals from your friends and don’t care about how many sales it would take to amortize the cost and most importantly, MAKE A PROFIT.

They give good marketers a bad reputation and therefore I consider them a detriment to other businesses and a threat to my business.

Aside, I’m very glad you’re going to re-visit this purchase with your friends and the people who over-sold them. I’m hopeful you can make this work and be profitable for your friends.

Vince Runza’s questions are excellent.
Albert Grande’s comments about Return On Investment, ROI are fantastic.
Kevin Riley nails it, “it is immoral.”
Andrew Cavanaugh has wisely said this over and over, “help business make sales and profits.” Andrew also aptly points out how you can help your friends with some excellent ideas about how to use the internet, it doesn’t involve being #1 on Google, hooray!
John McCabe, good stuff, “number one on Google is not the holy grail…more potential profit in being a trusted adviser.”
The inestimable Bev Clement points out, “they get a check…they have no idea what to do next.”

99% of the business owners I talk to want, “More customers,” so they can generate more revenue. Some, 1%, want an Image Campaign and getting more customers is secondary.

I am OFTEN asked by non-client, fellow business owners at networking functions, “What do I do when the ‘Radio sales person,’ ‘the Magazine sales person,’ and now more frequently than ever, ‘Internet Search Engine Optimization, get me higher on Google sales person’ tries to sell me their ads? And, ‘What the heck is Search Engine Optimization?’

My question to them is, “How do you handle advertising sales or these Internet Optimization sales people.” Their response, which is slightly disheartening is, “I say NO to EVERYONE.” That’s not good for people who provide real value.

Here is what I tell them, “What is your average sale? OK, $5 in sweets. Let’s take $1,500, the cost, and divide by $5, that’s 300 sales. How long will it take you to make 300 ADDITIONAL sales? Can you make 300 additional sales in 2 months? That will pay for the initial out lay, you break even. The monthly is $150, so that’s an ADDITIONAL 30 sales per month to BREAK EVEN.
Your objective as a business owner is NOT to break even it is to make a profit so let’s go from that perspective.”

When my business owner friends do this math with sales people the sales people usually fold.

You get the picture.

Our agency was recently hired to help a friend who owns several funeral homes. He wants very much to show up higher on search engines than his competitors when you put in, “City, funeral homes.” We are going to work as hard as we can to get him where he wants to be. He’s paying us a fair price for the work we’re doing. Value for value, seems like a good thing to me. Maybe that’s “offline cash cow” type activity, maybe not.

The most recent article on my site is about how we helped a local dentist get $42,000 worth of business over the past year (in this recession) by spending $4,500 on a Post Card campaign. Truth be told the dentist did ask me if I’d work on his website. Me, “How many new patients do you get from your site?” Dr., “Not very many.” Yes, we will work on it but only in a way that allows you to get make more money than you spend, EVENTUALLY. The monetary return might not be instant. If we set up an email capture and send out info and maybe an occasional special then it might take a while. The upfront and maintenance cost of an Email Capture system will not be that great. Paying $5,000 for a total re-make of your website when you get very few patients from that source is not a wise way to spend money right now. And being #1 on Google (they get 2-3 sales people a week offering this) will not be cost effective.

Art Webster, it’s a pity you’re, “not fond of offline cash cow proponents,” many of them provide real value and keep businesses alive. Most of us are “not fond” of people who take advantage of others because we don’t like to see others get hurt and it hurts us also.

All my best,
Palo

[Jagged]

Originally Posted by Magic Johnson

After reading a book on offline gold, we can't assume that we know how to manage a company and work as an web consult, and set up a PROFITABLE web site.

What do we know about business building and marketing, more than selling our own, then "over" priced services, I believe it's time we fire off bullets.]

[And people think they are an expert after they have read ONE ebook??

Originally Posted by Bev Clement

Here is a major problem I have with the offline/online that we see happening time and time again. People are using a script to talk to owners, and they get a cheque or contract and think it is wonderful. The problem is that they have no idea what to do next, and we often have them coming in here to find out what the next step is.

You don't need to know everything, but having a basic knowledge of what you are selling does help.

You are a service provider, and as such you should know how to get that service provided.]


[There are amazing opportunities but at least get your basic knowledge sorted, before trying to sell a service you can't do yourself.

I sold a car last week...does that make me a car salesman??

JUST GO DO IT.....DO IT TODAY....*doesn't matter if you know how....you know more than most business owners anyways*

That was preached to us routinely...and thats "a part" of what lead us to this problem...

"Send this letter to local business owners". Get an owner to contact you.....go sell him an autoresponder...collect a check for 500.00.........then come back here and ask...ummm, ok...how do I install an autoresponder or a contact form?

This is not a business model....

Look, I am in no way saying that you should not "go talk to local busness owners"
YES... by all means.....GO DO IT...IT WORKS. It's the best way to get new clients....really is!!! I just think the plan was presented to us.....without the fine print...

All I am saying is...get your ducks in a row first. Take some time...think things through...map out your goals...have a plan.....then go do it.

One's who didn't do this are the ones finding their way back to the forum to ask how to do this or that...or what to do next...
They never had a business plan....just a way to make a fast buck.

I brought this topic up during the whole "cash cow" frenzy....about thinking it through first...laying out a business plan...set goals...learn at last a little about your services.
But many inturn stated that I was over analysing & wasting time....just get out there and do it!!! That I was suffering from "paralysis-of-analysis"....

I'm glad I didn't listen & followed my own path....

Ken

[Art Turner]

Originally Posted by Magic Johnson

I have been studying my ass in this field, since June, 2001.

I think that's a problem many would-be marketers have...

Sorry Magic, that line was too good to resist.

[AndrewCavanagh]

Originally Posted by artwebster

This couple had been charged €1,000 ($1395.91) for their web site and €100 ($139.59) a month to maintain it and build a mailing list. With a POR of 9%, this web site has to provide €1,111 ($1,550.94) extra sales per month for the bottom line to be maintained. This simply WILL NOT happen!

I kind of agree with you on this although I'm pretty sure I could make a sweet shop an extra $150 a month in profits (that's only $38 a week or $8 extra profit a day if they trade 5 days a week).

The profit on revenue of 9% can be very misleading because when you create extra sales the costs usually don't go up proportionately.

Put another way the business is already paying for staff and rent and most of it's other costs.

So to make an extra $38 in profits a week they may only need to sell $76 in sweets...possibly less depending on the costs of the sweets.

You know there are people who will buy $50 or $100+ worth of sweets in one purchase.

You don't need too many of those on an email list to get positive results.

Building a sizeable email list of customers and having a well crafted email every month or every couple of weeks promoting some succulent new deal could actually achieve that.

I wonder if the business owners or the marketer involved in this ever did these calculations though and if they used print outs of emails or some other method to get at least some rough tracking of results coming from their internet marketing.


Again it's not about how much they charged.

Real value is always about what profits you actually make a business.

If you charge a business $200 and you make them nothing you just ripped them off for $200.

If you charge a business $20,000 and you make them $100,000 in profits it's a screaming bargain for them.

That's just one of the reasons it's a good idea to work with businesses where you can potentially make them large sums of money quickly...car dealers, real estateg agents, pool and spa sellers etc etc.

You can charge more for pretty much the same service and still be providing excellent value for money.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh

[jasonl70]

I actually know of a local guy who has a small chocolate shop in a local mall here in a suburb of Columbus Ohio..

he had a website built and does a lot business from it, from all over. A year or so ago he got a very large order - it was to provide chocolates for the reception room at the Emmies during the awards show!

He paid cash for new Dodge Magnum at the dealership I do work for - so he's doing pretty good

Now, regarding the OP:

Yes, their current clientele may be the locals, but it seems they were in fact interested in casting their net much further via the web. It's really not a pipe dream to think its possible, but it may require the shop owner to step up their game in terms of quality, packaging, etc.

There was also a comment about military bases:
When I was in the US Air Force I was stationed in England, at RAF Mildenhall, during the 90's. I spent several hundred quid a month on cigars at a small shop in Newmarket that also sold chocolates. The husband sold cigars on one side, the wife sold sweets on the other side. Anyways, I did in fact try to track this shop down on the web to continue doing business with them after I left the UK I would have ordered choloclates for my girlfriend at the same time (they had awsome chocolate come in from belgium regularly).

I don't want to totaly defend the firm that did this, but at the same time I don't agree with the knee jerk reactions. It sounds like this store did want to expand beyond the local area, and that the OP is the one trying to rein them back into their existing market.

[medallion]

If I may reply to the above, at the end of the day, it is azbout integrity and responsibility.

I have found that it is better to be integral, provide a full list of expected outcomes, and explain a course of action.

There cazn never be any guarantees, but naturally; it is easier to get a bad name, and thus, to protect your reputation, it is bettrer to be honest, and upfront.

A quick buck is not a good idea to building a long term business.

Howeve, the shopkeepers need to be better informed too;

I certainly understand that SEO search terms in English are different to the Spanish terms.

[Thomas Belknap]

Art, how do you know they won't make a profit from being online? Besides your opinion of course.

[dmcloser1]

Wow! What an interestingly hostile discussion based entirely on the
one sided telling of a 2nd hand story of supposed woe!

I have two questions and a few comments.

To the op . . . your friends agreed to the deal and wrote the check, right?

Want some brutal honesty?

They made a seemingly bad decision, and may have hooked you for some
free advice or work thanks to their sad story.

Nonetheless, they didn't say NO,
and now get to live with the decision THEY made.

Don't blame the sales person. Nobody can honestly say he lied or misled them any more than I can say he didn't. None of us were there. The "facts" you present are hearsay and one sided, therefore not the full picture.

Since this is their first business, You should know there is a
learning curve and a tuition fee to everything new we try to do.

If this really is a bad deal, if they really were lied to or misled, then they've
learned something valuable and paid the price required for the lesson.

The lesson they need now is how to make their site a
useable, profitable asset to their business.

Do'em a favor, Give'em the url to this forum.

Urge them to master the 1 profit making part
of running and owning any business, sales and marketing.

Then you'll have really helped them.

Sincerely,
David

[Warrior Markets]

I can see the basic point art is making about this particular individual ripping off the sweet shop owners. However, due to certain points art has made, the debate has gone from said individual’s stupidity/greed to the merits of selling our internet marketing skills to offline clients.

This place is littered with offline success threads. All these threads highlight the success (usually with dollar values) along with how the OP managed to get the client.

However, very few of these threads actually state how you can give value to the client. The 'gaining client' seems to be an end in and of itself, with the client's needs being left as nothing more than an afterthought.

I've felt that gaining clients shouldn't be that difficult if you can provide value - it should almost sell itself. In fact, I have clients to whom I could possibly sell to, but I've refused to do so, solely because, although I know I can take their money, I don't feel I can provide any real tangible benefits for the client, namely increase in takings.

Yes, there have been few pointers given ("set up autoresponders", "send out coupons"), but, relatively speaking, these have been few and far between. Also, many of the tips given (eg set up autoresponders) just highlight the means to an end (increased sales). This is good for some, but less experienced marketers reading the threads do not know how to take the means and give their customers a worthwhile end.

I'm not having a pop at those who go to the trouble of highlighting how they go about capturing clients, often giving very detailed instructions; I guess, perhaps, those people could show how their efforts helped their clients - in real terms.

I guess if more threads started with “Look!!! How One Hour’s Work Just Made My Client $3000”, we’d have fewer people actually going away with the idea that the goal is getting people to pay you, when, in fact, it should be how can you make your clients money – and get rewarded in the process.


-WM

[jan roos]

What is wrong with coming to the forum and asking for new suggestions and angles on marketing say a dentist or a plumber etc? Isn't that what this forum is all about? Helping each other.

One more thing. I believe firmly as Bev pointed out that you don't have to know much about IM to make this business work. f you know the basics like what services to sell Autoresponder, Seo, Video, Blogging Press releases etc) for each individual business you don't actually have to know how to do the work yourself. Actually, many established offllners would discourage you from doing any of the work yourself. Outsourcing is your friend, As long as you stay organized you can do great with this business model called Offline Gold.

Cheers

[Jagged]

Originally Posted by jan roos

What is wrong with coming to the forum and asking for new suggestions and angles on marketing say a dentist or a plumber etc? Isn't that what this forum is all about? Helping each other.

One more thing. I believe firmly as Bev pointed out that you don't have to know much about IM to make this business work. f you know the basics like what services to sell Autoresponder, Seo, Video, Blogging Press releases etc) for each individual business you don't actually have to know how to do the work yourself. Actually, many established offllners would discourage you from doing any of the work yourself. Outsourcing is your friend, As long as you stay organized you can do great with this business model called Offline Gold.

Cheers

Hi Jan,

It's not the "how do I approach a dentist" or "I need some suggstions on how to approach a plumber".....these questions are much more understandable.

And...NO....you don't have to know everything...

It's the basic questions like..."how do I install a contact form...or autoresponder" or "how do I install a wordpress blog"...or my personal favorite..."OK, I got my first client...now what?"....
I mean...if you have to ask...then frankly...you shouldn't be out there...at least not until you did a little research first...

As far as outsourcing...sure, it's a great way to go...BUT, before you actually get to the outsourcing part...you need to talk to the owner about certain services they need...wouldn't it be wise to at least know a little about the services your offering?
No...you do not need to do the work yourself...but you should be able to "talk the talk"

JMO,
Ken

[Paul Myers]

Art,

Mark-up is the relevant number when you're talking about incremental sales. I don't know what it is for the type of candy they sell, but you need to do your math based on that.

I think you're probably right about the person who sold them that deal, and their approach to the web. That doesn't mean that your conclusion is correct. It's quite possible for that kind of shop to make that much in additional sales if you go about it the right way. That's been addressed already.

On the larger point, I agree that there are a lot of people out there selling this stuff who shouldn't be. My answer to those people is simple: Find a test subject, do the work for them up front, and take a contingency fee. Or just do it gratis, as a learning experience.

Be honest with people. Tell them that you're new to doing this for other people, and that you want a local example to point to, so that others can see that it really does work. Then, if you screw up, they won't care. At least not as long as you don't damage their reputation.

Learn what works, too. John's point about the relative value of being #1 on Google reminded me of a search I did recently. If you look for "plumber Erie PA," without the quotes, you get a sponsored link and ten "Local business results" before you see the top organic listing. And that one is the Superpages listing.

I don't know about other cities, but being in the local business listings part of that result is more like having a phone number in the book than having a big YP ad. It's more of a necessity than a special service.


Paul

[Bev Clement]

Originally Posted by jan roos

What is wrong with coming to the forum and asking for new suggestions and angles on marketing say a dentist or a plumber etc? Isn't that what this forum is all about? Helping each other.

One more thing. I believe firmly as Bev pointed out that you don't have to know much about IM to make this business work. f you know the basics like what services to sell Autoresponder, Seo, Video, Blogging Press releases etc) for each individual business you don't actually have to know how to do the work yourself. Actually, many established offllners would discourage you from doing any of the work yourself. Outsourcing is your friend, As long as you stay organized you can do great with this business model called Offline Gold.

Cheers

I didn't say you didn't have to know much, I suggested you did need to know the basics, and the problem is many don't have a clue about the basics.

When a consultant sells on the basis of getting into Google, and then wonder how does Google get a site indexed, that is a problem.

When a person goes out and sells an autoresponder, and then comes to a forum, and asks what is an autoresponder or how do you install it, then it is a problem.

If a person is selling these, and doesn't know the way to do them, they are not any more knowledgeable than the client. I wonder how many would be prepared to pay the amount the client is being charged to get the information to do that work.

[Paul Myers]

WM,

I guess if more threads started with “Look!!! How One Hour’s Work Just Made My Client $3000”, we’d have fewer people actually going away with the idea that the goal is getting people to pay you, when, in fact, it should be how can you make your clients money – and get rewarded in the process.

Now THOSE I would read. Every time.

Really good observation.


Paul

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by prosperwithdnb

We are trying to help business owners and with offline marketing. Major companies like y-pages are charging 2000 for a full page ad or 2000 for one video. So if you are so upset why not go to y-pages and tell them the exact same thing your upset about

MAN what a STUPID comment! Yellow Pages is generally LOCAL, and organized by main product. People LOOK there like PEOPLE! If you are off a few pages, people may STILL find you. Search Englines are such that if it misses your record, you will NOT be found!

I am SICK of SEOs saying they will "get you in the top ten". That is nearly IMPOSSIBLE for a popular and proper term. If this is a custom candy mix shop, the proper search term should be like:

+bulk +candy +mix

NOT

"The san pedro bulk candy mix shop"

You got me how you even get SUCKERS to fall for that garbage. The yellow pages is such that you can look for "CANDY" and come up with so few companies that it is easy to search one by one. If your add is full page and color, people are almost guaranteed to see it.

Steve

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

The First assumption the OP is off with, is that the site is a waste and there is no way it could help them.

I owned an ice cream popcorn shoppe for many years we also had candy the mark up for candy was a LOT more than what he is showing, that to me is truly dishonest.

He was NOT talking about YOUR store! How do YOU know what the market is? I just so happen to have sold hardware/software. Some stuff cost me less, than anyone else! Other stuff cost me a LOT more! There was NO way I could find to get it for less. I WOULD assume the stuff was stolen, but like I saw BRAND NEW printers that JUST hit the market, and a place was selling them for a price that was BELOW wholesale!

SO do YOU know:

1. Their credit rating?
2. Their stock?
3. Their customers?
4. Their distributers?
5. The income of their customers?
6. Their laws?
7. Their customs?
8. Their policies?
9. Their competition?

Since you are not even in the same country, I am betting your answer to all of the above is NO! WHO CARES if you were "in the same industry"! That is like some jerk saying that a Rolls royce should cost no more than say $30,000, because they used to be a car dealer!

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

Using OP's logic if I were to buy a cash register for $500 the cash register itself would have to generate income of over $5000 or its a rip off, Shame on the cash register people for ripping off poor innocent shop keepers.

Typically, according to average UUS standards, ROI should be in 3 years or less. Cash registers TRACK business, and make everything easier, and are clearly worth it.

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

To anyone here who has sold candy before, will find profit number in this post are truly laughable.

WELL, I know how a LOT of candy is made. I could estimate how much it costs in the US today to MAKE.(excluding machinery). STILL, I would NOT try to determine how much it costs a FOREIGN business. HECK, some products in the US can't even be used in canada and vice/versa. AND, there is a dessert shop that sells a $1000 sundae! Some would say the gold is EXPENSIVE! Actually, it is CHEAP! SOME would say it is the spoon. I KNOW the spoon can't be solid gold, and it is probably PLATED, and thus CHEAP! SOME would say it is the caviar. WHO KNOWS!?!? The company ACTUALLY says the CHOCOLATE is one reason it is expensive, and claims it is made of 12 kinds that are flown in special, etc.... WHO KNOWS? YEAH, I KNOW! Labor and greed probably play a large part, but can you REALLY say?

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

I don't know why the site targets English speakers, however to automatically say its a rip off seems a little quick on the draw.

I don't know how close the shop is to the American military bases or other groups that are made up of English speakers.

Back when I had my ice cream popcorn shoppe (we actually were a licensed dairy because we made our own ice cream)

There were so many people that would come in saying that it will never make it, there is no way you can make it in this town, every business in this located is closed within a few months.

Many of them had long drawn out, carefully reasoned arguments of why it would never work etc.

needless to say they didn't know what they were talking about

Like you!

Originally Posted by Mark Riddle

The franchisee came into our shop once and yelled at my manager frustrated because we didn't just go away, How can you make a profit with your low prices etc.

And as you might have guessed the baskin robbins store was gone in less than a year, and we were doing business as normal.


Mark Riddle

YEAH, but if they came in BEFORE you, the shoe may have been on the other foot. The franchisee was obviously an IDIOT! You should NEVER go to a competitor and ask such a question. You ALSO should check out the competition BEFORE choosing a site! If your prices were "too low", and you were doing well, he should have picked ANOTHER location. The IDEA that someone would spend SO much, and fail such a simple decision is LUDICROUS.

Steve

[Dan C. Rinnert]

Originally Posted by seasoned

You got me how you even get SUCKERS to fall for that garbage. The yellow pages is such that you can look for "CANDY" and come up with so few companies that it is easy to search one by one. If your add is full page and color, people are almost guaranteed to see it.

Yeah, but having an ad that's easy to see is of little value if so few people are using the Yellow Pages to make the cost of running the ad worthwhile.

With a lot of people, the only time the Yellow Pages is touched is when new books are dropped off and you need to replace them! For more and more people, looking for a business in Google has replaced looking up businesses in the Yellow Pages.

Plus, there are a wider variety of search parameters. Look at your candy example. Maybe the Yellow Pages has a candy category, but does it have a bulk candy category? And, if it does, I doubt it has a bulk candy mix category. I doubt it has a bulk chocolate-covered candy mix category. So, if I am looking for something specific rather than something general, the only way to do that with the Yellow Pages is by finding businesses under the general category, then search through their ads (if they have display ads) and, if that doesn't provide me the details I need, I have to go around calling them. As a consumer, it's much easier for me to look it up in Google. And, once you get used to that, eventually, you just use Google (or whatever search engine you prefer) as your starting point.

I just did a bulk candy mix search for my local area. Found two on the first page of Google. Are there more? Maybe. I didn't check page two. Checking those two sites out is easy. I can see their selections. I can't do that in the Yellow Pages. I can get driving directions. I can't do that in the Yellow Pages either.

Maybe the Yellow Pages would have had more results. I don't know. I found what I needed (if I really needed bulk candy mix) in Google. As far as I'm concerned, I have no need to check the Yellow Pages. Based on past experience, I know that the Yellow Pages is not going to provide me the convenience or the level of detail that a Google search will reply. A Yellow Pages ad cannot compete with a website.

Again, based on past experience, I know that I am more likely to find what I need in an online search than by looking through the Yellow Pages. Perhaps there are areas where the Yellow Pages have more listings or where it might be easier to find what I need but, overall, an online search will be more effective. As such, the first thing I'll do to find something will be an online search. The Yellow Pages will be a last resort.

Even with that, I know people who lived the majority of their lives using the Yellow Pages to find what they need and I use the Yellow Pages more often than they do. And it's because searching online has become so ingrained in the culture now.

Unless you live in an area where Internet access is not commonplace, online search is likely to be utilized far more than the Yellow Pages. And, when people go online to search, it's not the Yellow Pages websites they use, it's Google.

As a consumer, I use online search. And, nearly everyone in the "real world" that I talk to uses online search to find things as well. For many of us, we're no longer in a world where looking for things online is the geeky thing to do; it's mainstream now.

So, as a business, if it comes down between a choice of spending hundreds of dollars on a Yellow Pages ad or hundreds of dollars on a website and SEO, I can assure you those dollars will not be spent on advertising in books that sit on shelves and gather dust.

And, if another business owner asks for advice on the best investment for their advertising dollar, I am certainly not going to steer them towards a Yellow Pages ad.

While it's true that an SEO company cannot guarantee you a number one placement, if you do nothing at all while your competitors are doing something, who do you think will fare better?

The companies that advertise are the ones more likely to survive long-term and especially through tough times. And, right now, the Internet is one of the places most businesses really need to be, even if your business is local.

[Sheila]

Thanks for the post ArtWebster! It's certainly raised awareness of the question of whether or not offline marketers should adhere to a code of ethics in their business.

Different strokes for different folks, but I personally believe in the comments posted by those who stress providing VALUE before expecting compensation. Not providing the shop owners with a site and newsletter in Spanish (as well as English, if they're looking for a global market) certainly doesn't appear to be helpful to their present Spanish-speaking customers and might not be helpful to future customers.

I'm glad you were able to step in and help your friends. IMHO, I don't think all offline marketers are as unethical as the one who sold this website, etc. to the candy shop owners, but your post is helpful in that it brings home a valid point - if an offline marketer can't take the time to ask a business owner some simple questions about their goals first, and then develop a marketing plan that will fit their needs, then the marketer has no business wasting the business owner's time and/or money.

[AmyBrown]

Originally Posted by seasoned

I am SICK of SEOs saying they will "get you in the top ten". That is nearly IMPOSSIBLE for a popular and proper term. If this is a custom candy mix shop, the proper search term should be like:

+bulk +candy +mix

NOT

"The san pedro bulk candy mix shop"

Steve

Are you saying that is how you think the average person searches? My experience is that people search for a local resource using "city search term" such as San Diego frozen yogurt or Burien plumber.

This is veering off-topic but I haven't had a yellow pages in my home in years and neither have most people I know. I asked around recently because I wanted to compare sizes of the books and ad sizes for this year compared to last year and almost everyone said the book went straight in the recycling bin.

[JohnMcCabe]

Originally Posted by seasoned

YEAH, but if they came in BEFORE you, the shoe may have been on the other foot. The franchisee was obviously an IDIOT! You should NEVER go to a competitor and ask such a question. You ALSO should check out the competition BEFORE choosing a site! If your prices were "too low", and you were doing well, he should have picked ANOTHER location. The IDEA that someone would spend SO much, and fail such a simple decision is LUDICROUS.

Steve

Ludicrous, maybe. But very, very common.

Here in SW Florida, I see shops open and shut all the time. One of the most common scenarios seems to be:

Future Franchisee comes to Florida on vacation in the winter. FF sees bustling traffic, jammed shops and restaurants, plenty of expensive cars in the parking lots. FF also notices plenty of 'For Lease' signs. Thinks to himself (or herself, women make the same mistake) "I'll buy a [you name it] franchise, locate it down here and make a killing. It'll be like being on vacation all year long."

FF plunks his money down, leases a space, spends a ton of money and has the Grand Opening...

And no one comes. Or at least not enough to pay for everything until the snowbirds and tourists come back in the fall. And the folks that do come in have been conditioned to look for specials and coupons in the summer. FF soon runs out of money, and the 'For Lease' sign goes back up.

Had FF done the research and due diligence, he'd have timed his Grand Opening for around Labor Day. That gives him time to iron out the kinks in his business before the season starts but not so much that the well goes dry. After a season to put some cushion in the bank, FF can withstand the off-season dry spell (which, ironically enough, is during the rainy season). A lot of businesses down here spend the summer worrying about three things...

> Scraping up enough business to stay open until fall.
> Being able to pay their good employees so they don't leave.
> Getting blown away by the odd hurricane...

[jan roos]

Originally Posted by Bev Clement

I didn't say you didn't have to know much, I suggested you did need to know the basics, and the problem is many don't have a clue about the basics.

When a consultant sells on the basis of getting into Google, and then wonder how does Google get a site indexed, that is a problem.

When a person goes out and sells an autoresponder, and then comes to a forum, and asks what is an autoresponder or how do you install it, then it is a problem.

If a person is selling these, and doesn't know the way to do them, they are not any more knowledgeable than the client. I wonder how many would be prepared to pay the amount the client is being charged to get the information to do that work.

Exactly right. You do have to know what and autoresponder is, how to apply it to the specific business, If Seo will be worth it, keyword research and all that stuff in order to talk to the business owner intelligently. But to actually do all the work you don't have to know how to do it yourself as it can be outsourced although it's good practice to learn it.

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

Ludicrous, maybe. But very, very common.

OK, maybe I implied something I shouldn't. YEAH, I know it is common. I know a restaurant owner that does WELL! Sometimes, people buy his restaurants, change them, fail, and the owner would buy it back, for less than he sold it. It is almost like that old "I love lucy" skit! I went to two of his restaurants while he owned them. They are NICE, and do WELL. Still, people manage to faiil!

I was just saying that that licensee was just STUPID! His failure shouldn't be something to brag about, etc...

Steve

[ExRat]

Hi Jan,

But to actually do all the work you don't have to know how to do it yourself as it can be outsourced although it's good practice to learn it.

Perhaps some might get away with this approach. I think it goes deeper than 'good practice'.

It's 'good practice' to be almost fully conversant and at least averagely experienced in any area where you are selling that service to another business. Anything less than that is bad practice. How is it possible to sell something that you don't understand? Are people turning up to pitch their services praying that the prospect doesn't actually ask any questions, or if they do, that they can use jargon to baffle them with bull****?

When it comes to outsourcing, personally I think someone should ideally have done that type of work themselves first (or have someone in close 'proximity' who has) - at least enough to understand what's expected, and what pitfalls/loopholes to watch out for - in order to expect a successful outcome and avoid disasters while outsourcing.

If they haven't, then at some point they're likely to get let low quality or ineffective work slip through because they don't know how to recognise it.

And if they have clients and their reputation riding on the efforts of unknown people on the other side of the world, then to me it's ludicrous to think of people trying to outsource stuff that they don't understand themselves - (not you Jan, but the examples given above where people claim to have sold their service and then come here to ask basic questions - outsourcing isn't going to solve their problems).

It's so simple for someone to change the situation. An intensive one day introduction session with someone who knows what they are doing, could set that person up to successfully outsource that specific task AND check the quality of the outsourced work.

Yet people continue to 'wing it' and expect to succeed in business.

'You can fool some people some time. But you can't fool all the people all the time.'

What are they going to do then?

[jan roos]

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Jan,

Perhaps some might get away with this approach. I think it goes deeper than 'good practice'.

It's 'good practice' to be almsot fully conversant and at least averagely experienced in any area where you are selling that service to another business. Anything less than that is bad practice. How is it possible to sell something that you don't understand? Are people turning up to pitch their services praying that the prospect doesn't actually ask any questions, or if they do, that they can use jargon to baffle them with bull****?

When it comes to outsourcing, personally I think someone should ideally have done that type of work themselves first (or have someone in close 'proximity' who has) - at least enough to understand what's expected, and what pitfalls/loopholes to watch out for - in order to expect a successful outcome and avoid disasters while outsourcing.

If they haven't, then at some point they're likely to get let low quality or ineffective work slip through because they don't know how to recognise it.

And if they have clients and their reputation riding on the efforts of unknown people on the other side of the world, then to me it's ludicrous to think of people trying to outsource stuff that they don't understand themselves - (not you Jan, but the examples given above where people claim to have sold their service and then come here to ask basic questions - outsourcing isn't going to solve their problems).

It's so simple for someone to change the situation. An intensive one day introduction session with someone who knows what they are doing, could set that person up to successfully outsource that specific task AND check the quality of the outsourced work.

Yet people continue to 'wing it' and expect to succeed in business.

'You can fool some people some time. But you can't fool all the people all the time.'

What are they going to do then?

That makes total sense I think for a total newbie this business model is no good. But as soon as you understand IM a bit better then it is great. I do all my work myself except for the web design part. That I outsource, but things like autoresponders and even SEO is really not that hard to learn.

I still think its better to outsource everything to someone you have worked with and knows they are trusted to do good work. Then you can focus your time on getting more business. For instance today I spent 4 hours building backlinks for my clients. I should start outsourcing more myself.

Cheers

[seasoned]

Originally Posted by AmyBrown

Are you saying that is how you think the average person searches? My experience is that people search for a local resource using "city search term" such as San Diego frozen yogurt or Burien plumber.

This is veering off-topic but I haven't had a yellow pages in my home in years and neither have most people I know. I asked around recently because I wanted to compare sizes of the books and ad sizes for this year compared to last year and almost everyone said the book went straight in the recycling bin.

And WHAT if your connection goes down? What if the power goes out? I don't use the yellow pages either, but I have known people that DO! AND, for brick and mortar, they may even influence online ads.

[Michael D]

Originally Posted by artwebster

This couple had been charged €1,000 ($1395.91) for their web site and €100 ($139.59) a month to maintain it and build a mailing list. With a POR of 9%, this web site has to provide €1,111 ($1,550.94) extra sales per month for the bottom line to be maintained. This simply WILL NOT happen!

If you are going to try to help offline businesses, help them, don’t rip them off and make false promises or someone else, just like me, might call you to the shop and ask you some pertinent question while your client looks on and becomes more and more disillusioned.

First, that is actually pretty cheap for website design (if it is good). Around here they start out at least 2K for the local place to do a 5 page setup with no autoresponder, or anything. They also charge about 15 bucks per email to setup.

Do you know how frickin' easy that is to do?

Their hosting prices are also outrageous for what you actually get space and bandwidth wise, yet they are never considered con artists by local business. In fact, they have glowing testimonials on their website.

Second, the monthly fee is covering an autoresponder, hosting, and SEO maintenance I am assuming...

That is pretty frickin' cheap as well. Now, I do have to say the English ranking is kind of shady, but how didn't the shop owners ask anything about that? I don't care how good a salesman is - that should be obvious. Maybe they have a reason for it??? I don't know for sure, but everything else doesn't even come across as close to shady to me. You can attack my ethics all you want, but there are local firms who specialize in this that would take a lot more money from the owners and sleep just great that night.

In fact, this person could have saved them a lot on the website. They just need to go over the SEO aspect with the owners again and make sure they are listed in the local maps and go after a few keywords.

I know there may be an age gap with some people on here who are strongly against all of this, but the Yellow Pages are becoming obsolete. Every single year more and more people are going online first - its a natural progression. Whether you like it, or not you need some kind of presence online. People will find you.

I also don't know how taxes work in Spain since I am in the US. But, get a good accountant and you can writeoff that monthly expense very easily.

Worse case scenario, get them some cheaper hosting ($5 bucks a month) and drop everything else. Then they at least have a site to use in their normal advertising - which many people do check out.

[Ut]

Originally Posted by seasoned

And WHAT if your connection goes down? What if the power goes out? I don't use the yellow pages either, but I have known people that DO! AND, for brick and mortar, they may even influence online ads.

Then you don't have to worry about anything Steve, coz our biz go down with it and we all die from the WF withdrawal