Forcing payed customers on a list before delivery of purchase...

[Johnny Slater]

I just purchased two WSO's and both times after payment I was sent to an email list sign up where I had to join a list after purchase but before recieving the product I had just paid for.

Both of these products had a Get Response list as a requirement to getting the product after payment. Since GR isn't working right now it will be 2 days before I even get the confirmation email meaning I just paid for something I can't recieve for 2 days.

Had I known before purchase that I would be required to join a list in order to recieve the product I could have made the decision to hold off until GR is working. However, there was no mention of this on either WSO and as such I had no warning that I wouldn't recieve my purchase directly after paying.

This is in my opinion not an entirely honest way of doing business. Note that I say it's my opinion and I am not trying to tell anyone how they should run their business but if you are going to force people to join a list after payment before they can recieve a product they have already paid you for you should let people know that before payment.

I know quite a few people do not like having to join a list just to recieve a product they have already paid for, myself included.

Because of the fact that I paid for something and haven't recieved it both of these two sellers will be getting refund requests as I am not in the habit of giving anyone free money and I am not willing to wait 2 days for something I already paid for just because they want to force me to join their list.

There are so many ways to automate this that using this method should never be an option to even consider.

If you think forcing your customers to jump through hoops to get something that they have already paid you for, you really need to reconsider you customer service and your marketing plan.

[LB]

I just made a post about GR not working: http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...t-working.html

This process works 99% of the time and this is really a case where GR dropped the ball.

The best option (the way I do it) is to offer an additional bonus after purchase for joining the list. If the customer simply wants to access the product without joining the list then there is a direct link for that as well. They aren't forced. About 94% of people join the list.

Because of the fact that I paid for something and haven't recieved it both of these two sellers will be getting refund requests as I am not in the habit of giving anyone free money and I am not willing to wait 2 days for something I already paid for just because they want to force me to join their list.

I think you're being a little quick on the trigger...as I posted, most people were unaware that GR's forms are doing this. I would contact the sellers and give them a chance before just going for the refund...you're a merchant as well, wouldn't you want the same chance to make things right?

[Johnny Slater]

It's not the fact that GR isn't working that has me riled up. It's the fact that I was forced to join someone's list just to recieve a product I already paid for.

If you want to get a list of paid customers there are ways to automate this so that customers are not FORCED to join your list. Even if GR was working I would have not joined the list and would request a refund because I had already paid for something was was being FORCED to join an email list just to recieve something already paid for.

There are hundreds of ways to automate adding people to your lists without forcing them to do so before recieving something they already paid for. This exact thing has already been discussed here before and the vast majority of people have said they do not want to be forced to do anything if they have already paid.

If you want to get people on a list do it before payment, automate it so that customers are added to the list in the background, or put the list signup on the download page. No one should ever be forced to do anything after they have already paid.

Originally Posted by LB

I just made a post about GR not working: http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...t-working.html

This process works 99% of the time and this is really a case where GR dropped the ball.

The best option (the way I do it) is to offer an additional bonus after purchase for joining the list. If the customer simply wants to access the product without joining the list then there is a direct link for that as well. They aren't forced. About 94% of people join the list.



I think you're being a little quick on the trigger...as I posted, most people were unaware that GR's forms are doing this. I would contact the sellers and give them a chance before just going for the refund...you're a merchant as well, wouldn't you want the same chance to make things right?

[yesacpow]

I think you should pm the seller for the download links.

Also, I see nothing wrong with allowing someone to sign up on your list after they made purchase. This way you can give them updates and find out if they need any help etc.

It is a good business model and you should try it too!

[LB]

Even if GR was working I would have not joined the list and would request a refund because I had already paid for something was was being FORCED to join an email list just to recieve something already paid for.

You seem to enjoy looking for conflict where there is none.

You have to type in your name and email to get a link. Oh no! Is that really so life-shattering that you need a refund? Worst case scenario you either don't confirm the opt-in or click unsubscribe afterwards.

I agree it's not necessarily an elegant solution, but I've gone through the process for $2000 courses. It's hardly the end of the world.

[Johnny Slater]

I don't force my customers to do anything after payment. Once my customers make their payment they are taken directly to their download area and have instant access to what they paid for.

Neither of the sellers are currently online on the forum and I shouldn't have to jump through hoops just to get something that 99% of the merchants have automated completely.

I don't feel it's my responsiblity to have to hunt them down when I should have been taken directly to a download after purchase, or at the very least informed before hand that the download would be delivered through an autoresponder. Regardless of how you look at it, it is the sellers responsiblity to make sure that customers have direct access to what was paid for, or to warn customers if access requires extra steps BEFORE they purchase.

Originally Posted by LB

I would contact the sellers and give them a chance before just going for the refund...you're a merchant as well, wouldn't you want the same chance to make things right?

[Johnny Slater]

It's not a good business model and from past discussions on this topic on this very forum the majority of people are actually against this method of doing business.

There are much better ways to get customers on your lists without forcing them to do it just to access something they already paid for, especially considering that the merchants in question gave no indication that this was a requirement before purchase.

Do your own testing, but if you do I bet you will find you will get more customers, therefore more income, if you give customers what they paid for without requiring them to jump through hoops after payment.

Originally Posted by yesacpow

I think you should pm the seller for the download links.

Also, I see nothing wrong with allowing someone to sign up on your list after they made purchase. This way you can give them updates and find out if they need any help etc.

It is a good business model and you should try it too!

[Carl Pruitt]

I could be wrong, because I'm remembering an old discussion from when the 7 Dollar Script and RAP were first introduced, but I believe that Paypal in particular has a problem with this practice.

[LB]

Do your own testing, but if you do I bet you will find you will get more customers, therefore more income, if you give customers what they paid for without requiring them to jump through hoops after payment.

We've put literally tens of thousands of customers through this process and I have never received even ONE refund request because they were asked to join a list after buying.

Some sites assign you a username and password after you pay, others require you to pick your own. It's about that much of difference in my eyes.

Auto-subscribing someone to a list when they buy is bound to get you in a lot more trouble than asking someone nicely to sign up after purchase.

It's kind of sad you're so hyped up to get a refund on a product that you presumably really wanted, just to prove a point, or so it seems.

[yesacpow]

I understand what you are saying. You don't want to have to join a list to get something you already paid for.

But on a personal note, I do it so that I can keep my customers up to date. Based on the niche you may be in, they may be changes over a period of time. So instead of selling a brand new copy of the product, you just email them an update.......

And about testing, It will not impact your sales. Remember the optin form will come After the customer has purchased the product.

I am no big shot in the business, but from what I see, all the big names are doing it this way. So who am I to try and invent the wheel?

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

It's not a good business model and from past discussions on this topic on this very forum the majority of people are actually against this method of doing business.

There are much better ways to get customers on your lists without forcing them to do it just to access something they already paid for, especially considering that the merchants in question gave no indication that this was a requirement before purchase.

Do your own testing, but if you do I bet you will find you will get more customers, therefore more income, if you give customers what they paid for without requiring them to jump through hoops after payment.

[Johnny Slater]

If you look at the rate of refund requests compared to the same product with access being given directly after download, I bet you will see a difference.

Also, I'm not saying don't add paying customers to a list. I'm saying there are much better ways to get paying customers on your list other than forcing them to do so before they recieve something they already paid for.

In fact, Click Bank has already addressed this by putting in their terms of service that you must send paying customers directly to the product download page or risk losing your account with them. I bet if PayPal finds out someone is using this practice they would limit or block the account pretty quickly as well.

Originally Posted by yesacpow

And about testing, It will not impact your sales. Remember the optin form will come After the customer has purchased the product.

[dave147]

I never think it's a good idea to force people onto an autoresponder list after purchase. I believe you will lose them quickly afterwards and your return rate will be more than it would have been. There gonna be on your customer list anyway so why annoy them with another action?

[ExRat]

Hi Johnny,

It's not a good business model and from past discussions on this topic on this very forum the majority of people are actually against this method of doing business.

So it's been discussed before and a conclusion was reached. Okay....

Did everyone in the forum participate? If not how many - and is that figure enough to make any conclusions?

Johnny, as you're so dead set against this, I wonder - how do you feel about a WSO seller who uses gmail to send out updates about the product, without an unsubscribe link, therefore the only way to stop their emails is to either contact the seller, or use a message rule to send the emails to the spam bin?

[Johnny Slater]

Considering that this would violate Can Spam rules I would be against it as well. I personally either send emails through my autoresponder, or through the SMP mass email feature, and if I use SMP I clearly state how to opt out of recieving the emails.

If someone is doing what you described they are not only annoying customers but breaking at least one law, depending on where they live.

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Johnny,
Johnny, as you're so dead set against this, I wonder - how do you feel about a WSO seller who uses gmail to send out updates about the product, without an unsubscribe link, therefore the only way to stop their emails is to either contact the seller, or use a message rule to send the emails to the spam bin?

[Paul Myers]

LB,

You have to type in your name and email to get a link. Oh no! Is that really so life-shattering that you need a refund?

Since when does something have to be life-shattering to warrant a challenge?

That is precisely the mindset that leads to pushing the lines and moving to more and more intrusive and/or unethical marketing techniques.

For example: "Spam? What's the big deal. Just hit delete."

By the way... There's a difference between being asked to join a list and being forced to do so in order to get something you paid for. The former is clearly on the bright light side of the line. The latter is grey at best (if there's no prior notification), and sufficiently so that Paypal will get nasty over it.

The funny thing is that it's unnecessary. The number of people who get mad about being contacted occasionally by someone they've spent money with is trivial. I'm not aware of any ISP or web host that forbids it.

List hosts that require confirmation of additions are a separate case, but that's a matter of programming rather than actual policy, for the most part.

Now, if you plan to hammer them with promotions, you'd better make sure you get them to confirm a request. And to be blocked at various places for complaints.

Johnny,

You probably shouldn't talk about CAN-SPAM. You don't know the rules resulting from it, as is made clear every time you bring it up.

CAN-SPAM specifically does NOT require even an unsubscribe link in emails from people you've made a purchase with, for example. Mind you, that's got nothing to do with the policies of service providers, who are free to make that link a condition of using their systems.


Paul

[JeffLam]

It's getting hot in here...

I personally agree with what Johnny is saying here. His point is that he paid good money for a digital product which promises to deliver immediately.

Now, if you were him, and you wanted the product now and paid the seller the money, wouldn't you be a slight pissed that you are unable to obtain your product now?

Furthermore, the delay is due to the seller enforcing you to subscribe to his/her list to obtain the link to download. I understand that this is a good marketing tactic that many big time internet marketers use to great effect (and money), but take a step back and think about it - is it really 'ethical'?

Is it ever ethical for anyone to force you to do anything?
From where I live, only the law (which the government has a large role in) has the power to do that.

As such, a force opt-in list is rather crude marketing imo. If your product warrants the buyer to subscribe for updates, etc, then you should either put it up in your salesletter or simply tell the buyer after purchase and offer the subscription to the buyer. This way, the buyer can lose out on the updates by refusing to subscribe OR decide to subscribe anyways as your salesletter/value is so convincing.

Either way, the buyer gets his download first - and that is good customer service.

Jeff

[Mike Hill]

Here's what I do... I give my customers the choice to be on the updates list. I have steps in the download area.

Step #1: Download product
Step #2: Register your purchase for future updates and related communications
Step #3: Related product promotion that would be a good add-on

That's how I do it and people have the choice. I may include some incentives for Steps #2 and #3 occasionally but for the most part this has always worked well for me.

Not to mention, the buyers who end up on my list aren't going to be moaning about SPAM complaints.

Mike Hill

[JeffLam]

Here's what I do... I give my customers the choice to be on the updates list. I have steps in the download area.

Step #1: Download product
Step #2: Register your purchase for future updates and related communications
Step #3: Related product promotion that would be a good add-on

That's how I do it and people have the choice. I may include some incentives for Steps #2 and #3 occasionally but for the most part this has always worked well for me.

Not to mention, the buyers who end up on my list aren't going to be moaning about SPAM complaints.

Mike Hill

That's exactly what I meant - and I believe that should be the way to treat your customers!

[Johnny Slater]

Roger,

Now that I have had my morning wake up coffee and can think a little more clearly let me change my answer a bit. In the situation you mentioned above I would simply request the seller to stop emailing me. If the emails did not stop I would block the senders email address and make a note to never purchase anything from that seller again.

Paul,

I am aware of the CAN-SPAM rules regarding someone who has purchased from a seller. This would be considered a relational situation and not covered under the rules.

If you look at the time stamp of when I made that post it was 5am. Cut me a little slack for being up way to late, or early depending on how you look at it, and not fully understanding the question before I answered it.

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Johnny,

You probably shouldn't talk about CAN-SPAM. You don't know the rules resulting from it, as is made clear every time you bring it up.

CAN-SPAM specifically does NOT require even an unsubscribe link in emails from people you've made a purchase with, for example. Mind you, that's got nothing to do with the policies of service providers, who are free to make that link a condition of using their systems.
Paul

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by JeffLam

I personally agree with what Johnny is saying here. His point is that he paid good money for a digital product which promises to deliver immediately.

Now, if you were him, and you wanted the product now and paid the seller the money, wouldn't you be a slight pissed that you are unable to obtain your product now?

Yes, very much so. It's someone I wouldn't be doing further business with, for sure.

Offering delivery immediately after payment and not fulfilling the offer isn't a great business model, I think.

[Alan Petersen]

I agree with Johnny on this one. I find the practice a little shoddy if they don't tell me upfront. And they usually don't because they know what will happen if they do...lost sales.

You can have your cake and eat it too as has been mentioned by others in this thread without having to force customers into lists or going through more hoops before you deliver a paid product.

I went through this a couple weeks ago. Bought a WSO. Forced to optin in order to get what I paid for. Okay--fine, I opted in. What did I get besides what I ordered?

Daily promos. Even 2 emails in one day, twice. No other information just pitches. Needless to say I unsubsribed yesterday and I won't do business with this person again.

We're all marketers here but you need to at least add a sliver of valuable info to your list especially if you're forcing them onto it after you've taken their money and are now refusing to deliver the goods until they do so.

[sbucciarel]

I hate being forced to join a list. If I've paid for the product and am forced to join the list before I download, I unsubscribe as soon as I've got the download. Matter of principle ... I don't like being forced to do something I don't want to do after I've paid. If you want me to join a list, persuade me ... tell me how it will benefit me.

[jasonl70]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

It's not the fact that GR isn't working that has me riled up. It's the fact that I was forced to join someone's list just to recieve a product I already paid for.

If you want to get a list of paid customers there are ways to automate this so that customers are not FORCED to join your list. Even if GR was working I would have not joined the list and would request a refund because I had already paid for something was was being FORCED to join an email list just to recieve something already paid for.

While the GR problem is a pain, I have to say - every time I read a thread like this, I just don't get it.

I swear, you'd think that people's email addy were worth gold or something.

Hell, just unsub if it irks you so much to have a marketer dare try to get you on their customer list..

Guess what? Most offline businesses worth their salt have custimer lists as well - do you have a problem with this? Heck, in the offline worlds THEY EVEN SELL YOUR INFO TO OTHER MARKETERS!

The fact that you are OK with it if it's automated makes it even more confusing, as the end result is the same.

Threads like this make me think of a kid who's bought a book on sleight-of-hand, and from that point forward makes a scene whenever he see's some magician, etc, perform.

[jasonl70]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

It's not a good business model and from past discussions on this topic on this very forum the majority of people are actually against this method of doing business.

ahh, the vocal minority of anti-marketing marketers

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

There are much better ways to get customers on your lists without forcing them to do it

I agree with this.. automate if possible

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

In fact, Click Bank has already addressed this by putting in their terms of service that you must send paying customers directly to the product download page or risk losing your account with them. I bet if PayPal finds out someone is using this practice they would limit or block the account pretty quickly as well.

I have a friend who's added numerous products to CB recently, and CB did not take issue with using a opt-in form before the download page. He had to fix a few things before being approved, but not this. Maybe this is a very recent change?

[Alan Petersen]

Did you read the OP and any of the other posts? It's about not delivering a product you paid for until you optin to their list. I would love to see your reaction if you bought a TV from Best Buy and they won't give it to you until you join their mailing list.

The whole "you're a marketer deal with it" is a big cop out. Read Paul's post in this thread. Good stuff.

Originally Posted by jasonl70

While the GR problem is a pain, I have to say - every time I read a thread like this, I just don't get it.

I swear, you'd think that people's email addy were worth gold or something.

Hell, just unsub if it irks you so much to have a marketer dare try to get you on their customer list..

Guess what? Most offline businesses worth their salt have custimer lists as well - do you have a problem with this? Heck, in the offline worlds THEY EVEN SELL YOUR INFO TO OTHER MARKETERS!

The fact that you are OK with it if it's automated makes it even more confusing, as the end result is the same.

Threads like this make me think of a kid who's bought a book on sleight-of-hand, and from that point forward makes a scene whenever he see's some magician, etc, perform.

[Adam Bshero]

Show me in Clickbank's terms where you cannot have a opt in form as the download page. I have read through the terms and have not seen this rule.

This is a worthless thread on a subject that has been beaten to death on this forum.

No offense.

Ask for a refund and be on your way. Buyers lists are invaluable. I agree that there are better ways to get buyers on that list, but some people do not have the finances to invest in those ways.

[ExRat]

Hi Johnny,

Now that I have had my morning wake up coffee and can think a little more clearly let me change my answer a bit. In the situation you mentioned above I would simply request the seller to stop emailing me. If the emails did not stop I would block the senders email address and make a note to never purchase anything from that seller again.

Bearing in mind your early/late start, and while thanking you for the advice, could I re-iterate my question -

How do you feel about that process, about the seller etc when you find yourself in that situation?

Let's say you buy a product and you decide not to use it, but the only way you can stop their emails is to either email them asking them to stop or to take some other action (such as creating a rule) to stop the emails from 'interfering' with your inbox.

I'm fully aware that it doesn't take much effort to email someone, but still, do you think that customers should have to take any other action, as opposed to simply clicking an unsubscribe link?

Put another way, regardless of the intricacies of spam laws, is it not common courtesy to ALWAYS offer anyone that you email a one-click solution in order to stop those emails?

Personally, I think that it is, and that it is also smart business. But I'm fully aware that many will not agree with me and that they will instead suggest that pushing all boundaries in order to continue to push your message in front of prospects is simply smart marketing.

But I'm interested in your thoughts on this, if you would be so kind as to share them.

[Corwinnx]

Hey Johnny,

I'm piping in here because I could have inadvertenly been the offending party, not necessarily to you, but to anyone who purchased something I was offering.

I use an OTO as the 'Paypal successful payment url.' I don't use a fancy OTO script, I just make a 'customize your order offer,' and at the bottom of the sales letter, I HIGHLIGHT in BRIGHT YELLOW... "No Thanks, Just Take Me To My Download Please" and then I provide a link to the download page. On the download page at the very top, the first thing you see is "Thank You For Your Purchase, Here Are Your Downloads, and then the download link.' As the buyer scrolls down, I also have an opt-in box to get another free goodie if they sign up to my list.

This has caused 2 things to happen.

1.) People are either not seeing the "No Thanks at the bottom of the download page and are assuming I'm going to email them the product. (From which I usually recieve a PM or an e-mail asking me for the download which I promptly provide the link to...) or

2.) The get TO the download page, don't see the download link, scroll down and optin, thinking they have to optin and will be emailed the product. Hence, when they don't recieve it, they PM or email me and I promptly reply with the download link.

Getresponse being down for the past 2 days wouldn't have made a difference because they would not have been e-mailed the product anyway, though it has been annoying to me.

Suffice it to say, I provide an email address in the WSO so that if someone who can't PM yet due to low post count has missed the download link for some reason, they can contact me.

On another note, every once in a while I do an article writing offer. I do force an optin because I use a form to collect the name of the client, the email address they want thier articles sent to, and their keywords in one simple sheet of paper (yes, we even print and keep folders, Becky is so effecient) so I can maintain somewhat of an organized 'system' (and because Becky makes me do it, LOL.)

So if it was me, I apologize. This is just our systematic approach to keep everything streamlined. We know once in a while we're going to get PM's and e-mails from people who couldn't find the download link, but we try everything we can to keep it is as easy for our buyers as possible to get everything they need.

Warmest Regards,
Marcus

[LB]

I posted pointing out that GR was down and likely the sellers were unaware that their orders were not being delivered.

I also offered the fact that I ask for my customers to join my list after purchasing but I also give them a direct link if they are so inclined.

I felt that Johnny was being a little quick to ask for a refund in this case as this was not something the sellers did overtly to scam or offend. Just a simple oversight.

Johnny then clarified saying that even if the process would have worked he would have asked for a refund anyway simply on the premise that he was asked to join a list after a purchase. (which makes no sense, since he discovered GR was down he obviously did so by trying to join the list and not by asking for a refund)

To me, that's the heart of the issue.

We've discussed the virtues and pitfalls of requiring signup after purchase many times on this board.

My point was that as warriors, marketers and brothers(and sisters) in business...must we be so quick to be offended and seek refunds?

Presumably, Johnny really wanted whatever it is he ordered. Is he so morally opposed to a list signup that it requires refunding without ever gaining access to his purchase?

As I've pointed out, I've purchased $2000 courses that required list signup after purchasing. I doubt they get refunds because of that reason.

In short, can't we all get along?

The point is well-made, but I just don't see such severity that we need to be running for refunds simply because someone uses this process. When we complain about this stuff we really need to look in the mirror because inevitably we've all dealt with customers that were unhappy with some facet of how we conducted our business.

My hope is that our goal on this forum is not simply to prove a point or get a refund, but instead to help everyone improve their business processes. Seeing as these were WSOs, I think that point is doubly relevant. Why not contact these sellers, explain your frustration and offer a solution?

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Adam Bshero

This is a worthless thread on a subject that has been beaten to death on this forum.

This is a different situation from other recent threads about having to opt in before getting the product.

In this thread, what's being highlighted is a situation in which the failure to opt in, owing to circumstances outside the vendor's control (other than his having chosen an inappropriate system in the first place), actually caused failure of delivery of the product paid for.

That's just not a good way to do business.

[raiko]

I just have a couple junk email addy's that I use specifically for "marketers". I also use a form filler so when I have to "opt-in" it's usually just a click of a button. I get the product - hopefully - and then never see another email from them again. Once a month I log into the email account and delete the 5000 or so emails with the usual moronic subject lines and I'm good to go.

In this case I tend to agree with Johnny. I would be pissed if I couldn't get the product as well. The seller holding me hostage for my email for HIS list so that he can market to me later would not make me happy. And, as for the usual lame "hey you're a marketer - deal with it" excuses, you could make the same argument for Bernie Madoff. Just because a technique makes money does not mean that it is necessarily the best approach.

[Johnny Slater]

Jason,

I'm not opposed to joining a list. I'm opposed to being FORCED to join a list to get a product I have already paid for, especially without being told before payment that this would be a requirement. As marketers we all want to build our lists and I have no problem with that. However, I do have a problem with something that I personally see as bad business practice.

Roger,

I believe I clearly stated my opinion. I don't like marketers who don't offer you a way to opt out of their emails and will do what I have to in order to stop the emails then not do business with that marketer again.

[Adam Bshero]

Originally Posted by alexa_s

This is a different situation from other recent threads about having to opt in before getting the product.

In this thread, what's being highlighted is a situation in which the failure to opt in, owing to circumstances outside the vendor's control (other than his having chosen an inappropriate system in the first place), actually caused failure of delivery of the product paid for.

That's just not a good way to do business.

Alexa,

He has stated that he understands GR not working. Read his quote.

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

It's not the fact that GR isn't working that has me riled up. It's the fact that I was forced to join someone's list just to recieve a product I already paid for.

If you want to get a list of paid customers there are ways to automate this so that customers are not FORCED to join your list. Even if GR was working I would have not joined the list and would request a refund because I had already paid for something was was being FORCED to join an email list just to recieve something already paid for.

I would be upset too if I ordered a product and couldn't get it. If I was the owner of these products, I would provide an alternative download link.

All I was trying to say is why start another thread like this when there are always going to be people who do not agree with some marketing practices.

For example, One Time Offer trees are annoying to some, but highly profitable for anyone who has a product. Just because some people do not like it, does that mean we should not use them?

-Adam

[Johnny Slater]

One reason to start threads like this is to educate people about ongoing problems and hopefully stop others from making the same mistakes as those that this thread was written about.

Some people get it and others don't. Thats fine. I don't expect everyone in the world to do things the same way I do them, and wouldn't want them to anyway.

However, some of us understand that just because you can do something doesn't always mean it will be the best thing for you to do. Sure, the process being discussed here may work great for some people. But then again, there are some people who shouldn't use this method for one reason or another.

This isn't about who agrees with what method. I stated the problems I had with two WSO's that were a direct result of forcing optins prior to delivery of already paid for products. I voiced my opinion on the method in the hopes that others may see the pitfalls of this method and may reconsider their sales processes to make them easier on the customer.

The one thing that is so often forgotten is that happy customers are likely to buy from you again but unhappy customers are not likely to. This is just my opinion but I fell you should put the customer first and the marketing second. As I said above, I don't expect everyone to agree with me but there new people joining this forum every day so some things are worth bringing up every once in a while to help new marketers possibly avoid potential pitfalls.

Also, I will say that both of the sellers in this situation have gotten back to me and provided me with access to the product downloads. They both get good marks for quickly responding when they were made aware of the situation.

Originally Posted by Adam Bshero

All I was trying to say is why start another thread like this when there are always going to be people who do not agree with some marketing practices.
-Adam

[healymedia]

Originally Posted by Alan Petersen

Did you read the OP and any of the other posts? It's about not delivering a product you paid for until you optin to their list. I would love to see your reaction if you bought a TV from Best Buy and they won't give it to you until you join their mailing list.

The whole "you're a marketer deal with it" is a big cop out. Read Paul's post in this thread. Good stuff.

Bingo.

Unless it's clearly stated somewhere before the person has completed their payment that signing up for the list is required, then just give them the download and invite them to join, but don't force them.

Forcing them to join the list is like forcing them to give you something a little bit extra after you've already paid what you thought was the full price. It doesn't matter if it's a significant loss to you, it's just the fact that it's misleading.

If signing up for the list is necessary, and therefor part of the transaction, then make sure to make that very clear up front.

[Alexa Smith]

Originally Posted by Adam Bshero

He has stated that he understands GR not working. Read his quote.

Yes, I know that, Adam. I was explaining to you why it's not "a subject that's been beaten to death in this forum". We're talking on this occasion not only about compulsory "opt" in but failure of product-delivery, too.

Originally Posted by Adam Bshero

I would be upset too if I ordered a product and couldn't get it.

Then don't criticise him for starting a thread to comment on it.

Originally Posted by Adam Bshero

All I was trying to say is why start another thread like this when there are always going to be people who do not agree with some marketing practices.

Because it's an internet marketing forum, and that's the place for discussion of marketing practices with which one doesn't agree, perhaps? Seems like a perfectly legitimate use of the forum, to me.

[traxmaker]

Originally Posted by Alan Petersen

Did you read the OP and any of the other posts? It's about not delivering a product you paid for until you optin to their list. I would love to see your reaction if you bought a TV from Best Buy and they won't give it to you until you join their mailing list.

The whole "you're a marketer deal with it" is a big cop out. Read Paul's post in this thread. Good stuff.

I was just about to post something very similar to this. I am all for people OFFERING a list to join when purchasing product but to REQUIRE it is truly saying to me STAY AWAY. I refuse to join anything to get something I PAID CASH for.

[rancher2]

Originally Posted by Mike Hill

Here's what I do... I give my customers the choice to be on the updates list. I have steps in the download area.

Step #1: Download product
Step #2: Register your purchase for future updates and related communications
Step #3: Related product promotion that would be a good add-on

That's how I do it and people have the choice. I may include some incentives for Steps #2 and #3 occasionally but for the most part this has always worked well for me.

Not to mention, the buyers who end up on my list aren't going to be moaning about SPAM complaints.

Mike Hill

This is best way in my country opinion. I agree with Mike. Also like to go straight to download after purchase.

[Tom Brite]

Guilty as charged!

My WSO goes to an optin page to recieve the WSO however i do not advertise to my list very often or send them emails. It is simply more for the fact that they can then just hit the reply button and send me an email easily.

Tom Brite

[sbucciarel]

Originally Posted by jasonl70

While the GR problem is a pain, I have to say - every time I read a thread like this, I just don't get it.

I swear, you'd think that people's email addy were worth gold or something.

Well that's because most marketers are spammers. I don't value spam in my email and normally when I sign up for a list after buying something, here it comes ... sometimes as many as 5 per day, but in most cases, far too much spamming for my tastes. I also don't like to be forced to do anything. If you are going to force me to sign up after paying for a product, put that in your sales ... give me your money and then sign up for this crappy list and then I'll give you the product.

[Mike Shain]

The first WSO I bought took me to a forced opt-in page to get my download. I was like WTF dude I gave you my money and now you want my email to boot.

I just opted in, got my WSO and immediately opted out. It wouldn't have done either the seller or me to stay on his list as I wouldn't likely buy from them again.

Nothing wrong with offering an opt-in but requiring one to get the goods? I don't think so.

But that is just me...

[JeffLam]

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Well that's because most marketers are spammers. I don't value spam in my email and normally when I sign up for a list after buying something, here it comes ... sometimes as many as 5 per day, but in most cases, far too much spamming for my tastes. I also don't like to be forced to do anything. If you are going to force me to sign up after paying for a product, put that in your sales ... give me your money and then sign up for this crappy list and then I'll give you the product.

On that note, become the marketer that don't spam!

Spam are for those that provide products with lower value and thus increase their volume in hopes of increasing their sales.

Provide value, and people will flock to you.
Provide value, and people will promote you willingly.
Provide value, and people will sign up to your opt-in list volunteeringly to receive your daily/weekly/monthly words of wisdom!

[Martin Luxton]

I got het up about this a while back.

Now, I just think, "What the heck!"

I'm never going to buy from that person again and I'm never going to recommend them.

No anger.

No rant.

A simple calm decision and I move on to debate the really important matters in life like "What shall I have for breakfast this morning?"

Martin

[Steven Wagenheim]

Let me start off by saying that I am dead set against being forced to opt into
a list in order to get a product that I paid for.

However, take this scenario.

Marketer A sells a product. He says on the sales page that the product is
going to be updated and all buyers get free updates. However, in order
for them to receive them, they need to sign up with the sellers autoresponder
in order to be notified.

As a buyer, would you object to this, especially if it was specifically stated
up front that this would be required?

If so, what would you do...not buy the product?

Wouldn't you want the updates?

Because of can spam laws, the product creator has no other way of
notifying you about the updates unless you opt into a list.

So, while I an against forced opt in for a purchased product, I am not
against forced opt in, in order to get updates, unless of course I just
don't care about the updates, which is fine.

Point is, I can see, under certain conditions, where buyer opt in would be
the only viable solution.

[Mike Shain]

You pose a good point Steven but I think what it comes down to is choice.

Its taking away the buyers choice to opt in that bothered/bothers me.

BTW a Billy Mays commercial just came on - the first I have seen since he died. Lets just hope Vince from Shamwow doesn't try to fill Billy's shoes.

RIP Billy

[Paul Myers]

LB,

My point was that as warriors, marketers and brothers(and sisters) in business...must we be so quick to be offended and seek refunds?

Another line of thought that I hate to see used by a sensible person.

Think about this, LB. Businesspeople pursue abusive practices and complain when other businesspeople call them on said practices. Being intimidated, or just lazy, the people making the protests shut up and play along.

The practices spread, and consumers start to complain. Then the various legislatures get involved, and businesspeople complain about that. And everyone, whether using the abusive practices or not, now has additional stuff to watch out for, as legislatures aren't famous for their ability to craft narrowly targeted responses. They occasionally avoid them intentionally, to stop the marketing end of the business community from looking for loopholes.

If you think this conversation is extreme, consider: I could, all by myself, slow the usage of this approach by members of this group significantly. All that's necessary for that is to raise the risk of using it to a painful level.

I could easily find 3 or 4 other people who object to this practice and make it so expensive that it would quickly become a high-risk tactic for the majority of people in this group. As in, a high risk of losing one's business entirely.

There are at least 2, and often as many as 5, points of failure in a process involving this technique. It only takes one of those to do damage, and any two could prove temporarily fatal to one's business.

If you don't believe me, PM me and I'll outline the attack plan for you. It's not at all complicated. I'm not going to describe it publicly, because I would prefer to avoid it being misused.

As far as delivery delays, I don't get spastic about them. Anyone who's in the kind of hurry that results in hostility over such things is, in most cases, not someone I want to deal with anyway.

That's a separate issue from the forced opt-in.

I also don't have a problem with getting emails from people from whom I've bought things, as long as they include a mechanism for stopping those. The problem with the forced opt-in is what that says about the seller's probable intentions.


Paul

[Tom Brite]

After thinking this over i have now added an extra link to download the product straight away for my WSO and hopefully that will increase future sales.

I have however also said that if they do not submit their email or name then i wont be able to send them updates/free ebooks/discounts etc. So now everyone has a choice but the choice is also already made up for them too!

Thanks all!
Tom Brite