Business Dwindling - Need New Source Of Clients Cause Of Higher Prices

by nik0 Banned
9 replies
The latest Penguin / Panda what not updates, made it once again harder to rank and keep sites at the top.

Especially the latest Penguin 3.0 forced me to radically change my service.

This came at a certain cost.

1) Literally as everything got more expensive so I had to increase my prices

2) I feel I priced myself out of the market, when I look at other vendors, different quality / different prices but try to teach that someone, all most see are just links or different type of links.

My sales thread is written by a professional on this forum and does a pretty decent job in explaining the differences I suppose, but in terms of sales it doesn't seem to make a difference with the higher prices.

Nowadays I need to invest a certain amount upfront into clients and it will take me six months to break-even on that. I can handle that, but it shows that it's a lot less lucrative then before. In case a client cancels before the 6 months it's not that I will lose as most of the investment are assets (read as expired domains) that can be re-used for others but still.

My current marketing efforts:

- List my service in WSO / Classified section
- Bump my threads every few days
- Support the service with case studies

Result: 1-2 new sign ups per month.

A year ago: 8 new sign ups a week (at $99/mo)
Half year ago: 4 new sign ups a week (at $129/mo)
Few months ago: 2 new sign ups a week (at $149/mo)

Currently: 0 new sign ups a week (at $199/mo)

So it seems the price plays a large role here.

As we speak my business is still running well so nothing drastic, in fact I did have 3 new sign ups today, but only from existing clients that I work with for a long time and I expect another 2 new sign ups from another existing client in 1 or 2 days. However these clients used the old sign up links, while I did explain in my emails that the prices would go up so I suppose they forgot that, have to email them about that or offer a degraded version of the service, eg less links.

Ok back to the point, business is still running fine with over 80 clients to work on on monthly base and numerous one time orders but no new orders so I don't think I'll be able to fare well forever with the current client base. Each business needs new blood so to say.

What would you advice here?

Stick to the new prices to offer a superior service compared to others or ofter a lesser version of the service at a lower price point so I can compete again? What would you do if it concerned your business?

Perhaps seek a new source of traffic that is prepared to pay higher prices (when you compare it to so called offline marketing companies we are still extremely competitive while still offering a better service)? Or perhaps a whole different sales process where capturing leads is the number one priority instead of trying to make a direct sale like we're doing now with the ads.

I could for example give away free things to get them on a list, follow up with emails that aren't screaming buy this but instead point them at live case studies that are ongoing while making them aware of my service along the way, eg soft selling.

You'd think that would work to sell an SEO service? When I look at successful bloggers like Matthew Woodward it seems he makes most of his money from affiliate products and some of his softwares and not so much from client SEO so I wonder if this is a waste of time for me. I'm far from him in terms of blogging, he does have tons of visitors and still he makes so little from SEO so that whole soft selling concept doesn't seem to work that well. Others like Neil Patel seem to do a much better job at that while they don't sell aggresively in your face either. Still he generates tons of SEO leads and that's his main source of income.

So that comes down to prices again, Neil Patel ain't cheap and isn't specifically targetting the IM crowd so am I cause of the increased prices in the wrong market segment where the majority is looking for the next shiny object for a few bucks? (WSO section kind of proofs that right).

Thing is most SEO services in the for sales sections here work, but for how long and how well do they work, I regularly analyze what others offers and no offense but mostly it's a bunch of links on pages with no link juice to pass on so though it ranges from $17 to $99 it won't make a huge difference in terms of rankings, or it's so spammy and based on russian link networks that it works excellent but for such a short time that it's a lot of effort to go through for people rebuilding sites and what not (eg churn & burn).

Most of my existing clients realize that and many of them stick with me for over a year already. I have clients that know how to build proper optimized sites, heck they build better sites then I build for myself, and they get rewarded for that, last time I was stunned how much a certain client made per site per month so the higher price point is definitely justifiable as he made many times more then what he paid.

Another alternative is to lock my service for new customers if it takes so much effort to find new clients and solely work with my existing clients and work on my own affiliate sites.

Any type of advice is appreciated.
#business #clients #dwindling #higher #prices #source
  • Profile picture of the author Roth
    Banned
    I think you picked a shady model to begin with...I honestly see no value in SEO companies...they seem to charge subscriptions for little to no value so I'm happy to see them go out of business. Link building? L-O-L

    Building links is so 2004-2008...it's a pointless service that only hurts SEO. It doesn't benefit it. This is especially true for "SEO service providers" that create useless links. But again, most SEO "specialists" don't know anything about SEO.

    My advice? Pick a new model and provide a service that actually benefits the customers. Spamming links and creating forum signatures with links in them is like painting a wall over and over again: it looks like you're busy but you're not really doing anything useful.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9665337].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author nik0
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Roth View Post

      I think you picked a shady model to begin with...I honestly see no value in SEO companies...they seem to charge subscriptions for little to no value so I'm happy to see them go out of business. Link building? L-O-L

      Building links is so 2004-2008...it's a pointless service that only hurts SEO. It doesn't benefit it. This is especially true for "SEO service providers" that create useless links. But again, most SEO "specialists" don't know anything about SEO.

      My advice? Pick a new model and provide a service that actually benefits the customers. Spamming links and creating forum signatures with links in them is like painting a wall over and over again: it looks like you're busy but you're not really doing anything useful.
      Ok I guess you talk from personal experience, sorry to hear you saw no value from the people you worked with.

      Lately there was a test conducted and 80 percent of business owners said that SEO delivers them the best ROI, that's not to proof that services work but any one who knows a little bit about SEO realizes that links drive rankings.

      I don't know of any (semi) decent SEO that spams public platforms and builds forum signature links for their customers but I do realize that SEO has a bad name, especially when you see that most of the SEO related gigs on this forum include exactly what you describe here, spam links.

      Personally I have clients that keep coming back over and over again and that expand their portfolio of sites, if it didn't work for them I supposed they would be long gone.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9665369].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Synnuh
    Hmm. That was advice?

    Have you checked out Hayden's stuff. He dealt a lot in link sales 18 months ago and had methods for generating higher paying clients.

    I think he trashed the content when he moved to No Hat Digital, but archive.org still has a bunch in it -- just gotta dig.

    https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://nohatseo.com

    Don't have any real advice to offer other than that.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9665352].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Anton Louis
    Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

    My current marketing efforts:

    - List my service in WSO / Classified section
    - Bump my threads every few days
    - Support the service with case studies

    Result: 1-2 new sign ups per month.

    A year ago: 8 new sign ups a week (at $99/mo)
    Half year ago: 4 new sign ups a week (at $129/mo)
    Few months ago: 2 new sign ups a week (at $149/mo)

    Currently: 0 new sign ups a week (at $199/mo)

    So it seems the price plays a large role here.
    I hate to say it but it really seems that most (not all) WF members who are always browsing the WSO section do not have real businesses that are making enough money to justify spending $199/month on SEO.

    I'm not saying that your service isn't worth it, I'm just saying that I don't think WF is the best place for lead gen on a service at the price point.

    If your service really works, and if you really have case studies to prove it, my honest advice would to invest in FB Ads that lead prospects to a Webinar optin page that targets small biz owners. Tell them on the webinar you will tell them that will show them exactly how you can rank their sites. Do one per week where you show case studies and actually show kws that you actually rank for. Then raise your prices and sell to people who actually have money and who can afford your service.

    Best of luck,
    Anton
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9665404].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author nik0
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Anton Louis View Post

      I hate to say it but it really seems that most (not all) WF members who are always browsing the WSO section do not have real businesses that are making enough money to justify spending $199/month on SEO.

      I'm not saying that your service isn't worth it, I'm just saying that I don't think WF is the best place for lead gen on a service at the price point.

      If your service really works, and if you really have case studies to prove it, my honest advice would to invest in FB Ads that lead prospects to a Webinar optin page that targets small biz owners. Tell them on the webinar you will tell them that will show them exactly how you can rank their sites. Do one per week where you show case studies and actually show kws that you actually rank for. Then raise your prices and sell to people who actually have money and who can afford your service.

      Best of luck,
      Anton
      Thanks Anton.

      I either have to cut my service in half to get back to the old price point or focus on other sources as I suspected indeed. Probably chasing the wrong leads here.

      I did land some large clients during the time I advertised here, large clients in the sense of dozens of websites to work on but once again at the $99/month price range. I redesigned my service post Penguin completely, as it categorized a new type of link as spam so I have no idea how effective the new service will be when I cut it in half. The main ingredient remains the same though, links on expired domains, just shared with way less people then previously, hence the much needed price increase and less links needed to accomplish the same. I used some mathmetical approach to calculate the amount of link juice people would receive in the new setup, which is about 1.8 times more then previously, however there's more to it then just link juice, number of sites linking to you also plays a role, how large that role is remains the question for now. Google's focus seems to be on quality links rather then quantity so we should be on the right track.

      Obvious I did a few quick tests (the whole service got transformed just days/weeks ago so no time to run extensive tests) and those turned out really well and as the main ingredient remains the same I don't foresee any issue's.

      I'm also a bit in dubio myself, as the upfront investment in new clients, and then I'm not talking about costs to generate leads, has increased significantly, to the point that I sometimes wonder is it all worth it to keep doing SEO for others or would I be better off doing it solely for myself and maintaining the current client base. In fact that would be the most logical choice but somehow I seem to be a bit attached to this whole service for clients thing.

      Some great tips there btw, I bet that could work out pretty well as people need a certain assurance these days with all these animal updates.

      What I left out is that the case study isn't showing any results as we speak, reason for that is that it's setup just two weeks ago and sites take time to rank, especially when ranking based on brand new domains. I couldn't use any existing sites as that would expose my network with clients on them and that wouldn't be appreciated by any of them of course, still I don't think that would be a huge game changer at this point but I definitely like the idea of Facebook marketing in combination with webinars, that should convince people when it's backed by some real data and keywords that have great commercial value, instead of some low hanging fruit that doesn't convert.

      I suppose I entered a golden time, before the huge Google updates and right after the take down of some huge networks where everyone was looking for an alternative to rank their sites. Have to say that I couldn't believe my eye's back then when I went from $0 to $10k+/month in just a few months, and often what looks to good to be true, will be too good to be true (at least from a long term point of view). Now that I improved my service it's time to improve my marketing.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9665442].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Christopher Fox
      Originally Posted by Anton Louis View Post

      I hate to say it but it really seems that most (not all) WF members who are always browsing the WSO section do not have real businesses that are making enough money to justify spending $199/month on SEO.
      I like this comment. Add to that $199 a 12 month commitment, and it really is a $2400 commitment. I view this forum like every other one - yes, there are some 'experts' here, people making a full time living from IM, if even less than $50,000/year (you won't be 'rich', but that's a full time income). But, most participants are not making a full time income, or any at all. Hence, a lack of $2500 to commit to SEO for their *business*, that doesn't really exist yet.

      Although B2B transactions occur here, overall, I view this more as a B2C marketplace, for MOST people that go so far as to buy services/WSOs from here never end up with a successful business generating a full time income.

      Further, because there are only so many spots on the first couple pages of the SERPS combined with Penguin/Panda, people look for alternative traffic sources more today than a couple years ago. Add to that that even the Cs here with starry eyes and dreams of making $XX,XXX/month with no investment of time or money are aware that 'traditioanl' SEO has been being wiped out with subsequent updates and that actual PENALTIES are doled out by Google.

      Now, maybe Roth is one of those experts on here, giving him some ground to be so blunt with his opinions, but I don't know any of all ya'll, so who the hell knows. I don't. I don't share that comment, necessarily. But my take on it is that I am seeing a shift in SEO, a growing up, where it is turning into marketing and being included in overall business marketing strategies.

      And that's the way that Google wants SEO to be performed - more like traditional marketing. I trust you know more about the SEO industry than I, so I cannot offer an evaluation, but perhaps you should review your services to be sure they are inline and changing with the times. Perhaps your extra income can come from new services your company offers to existing customers, instead of raising rates for ones that many would argue are becoming passé.
      Signature
      One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothing can beat teamwork.

      - Seldom Seen Smith
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9666911].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author nik0
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Christopher Fox View Post

        I like this comment. Add to that $199 a 12 month commitment, and it really is a $2400 commitment. I view this forum like every other one - yes, there are some 'experts' here, people making a full time living from IM, if even less than $50,000/year (you won't be 'rich', but that's a full time income). But, most participants are not making a full time income, or any at all. Hence, a lack of $2500 to commit to SEO for their *business*, that doesn't really exist yet.

        Although B2B transactions occur here, overall, I view this more as a B2C marketplace, for MOST people that go so far as to buy services/WSOs from here never end up with a successful business generating a full time income.

        Further, because there are only so many spots on the first couple pages of the SERPS combined with Penguin/Panda, people look for alternative traffic sources more today than a couple years ago. Add to that that even the Cs here with starry eyes and dreams of making ,XXX/month with no investment of time or money are aware that 'traditioanl' SEO has been being wiped out with subsequent updates and that actual PENALTIES are doled out by Google.

        Now, maybe Roth is one of those experts on here, giving him some ground to be so blunt with his opinions, but I don't know any of all ya'll, so who the hell knows. I don't. I don't share that comment, necessarily. But my take on it is that I am seeing a shift in SEO, a growing up, where it is turning into marketing and being included in overall business marketing strategies.

        And that's the way that Google wants SEO to be performed - more like traditional marketing. I trust you know more about the SEO industry than I, so I cannot offer an evaluation, but perhaps you should review your services to be sure they are inline and changing with the times. Perhaps your extra income can come from new services your company offers to existing customers, instead of raising rates for ones that many would argue are becoming passé.
        SEO still is a very effective way of driving traffic. Yes the entry bars has been raised, hence the higher prices.

        It doesn't take 12 months for sites to become profitable, on average 4-5 months to reach the peak so that would bring the investment down to $1000-$1200 and while the site is climbing it should already generate some income so probably people don't end up investing more then let's say $600-$800.

        If people don't have a profitable business then SEO is a great way to start one, overall it's cheaper then testing paid traffic where you can easily spend thousands and see very little in return. The opposite can also be true but that's rare.

        If people don't have $200/month to invest in their new business they can better find an additional part time job as it's hard to start any business with much less then that. Sure they can start up a service, same like I did but that seems to kill the whole "passive" dream / idea behind it.

        Passive income is a great sales word obvious but true passive income doesn't really exist, unless you put your money on the bank. SEO is about as passive as it can be in IM as all other traffic methods require a lot more effort and maintenance.

        Anyway I'm moving forward in different directions and have some projects in development right now:

        - writers platform where clients and writers come together
        - keyword research tool
        - JV with click optimization software
        - web hosting company

        So instead of providing just one piece of the puzzle I aim to provide every piece of it.

        Besides that I'm continuing on my plan to build 100's of Amazon niche sites, that's one hell of a project and ranking all of them will become a struggle in terms of time and resources as when you want to do it properly it will cost in the range of $500-$1000/site and that's a LOT of money when planning to launch 100's of sites so from that another business idea is born for the lazy ones:

        - selling pre-made sites
        - flipping sites that already rank with possibly a ranking maintenance service.

        All this combined will allow me to do a lot of cross selling, content buyers can easily scale up by buying complete sites and cut time by using our keyword research tool or scale even bigger if they have the budget by buying sites that rank already. Possibly they might use the click optimization service to get more out of their sites and the real starters could begin with hosting and making use of my content providing service and buy more along the road.

        Anyway it will be an interesting startup, I have contact details of 1000's of current/previous clients so I suppose that can give me an advantage and I probably start with real cheap guides for complete noobs and more seasoned IM'ers and start the funnel there at different points, eg for noobs start with upsells like 1 year free hosting and 50 percent discount on the keyword research tool and for the more seasoned ones 50 percent discount on click optimization tool/service and perhaps an additional $10 free credit to try out my writing platform. Obviously this won't make me much money in the first year but it's a long term plan anyway.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9689838].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Vikram73
    I think your business is largely selling stuff to affiliate marketers but others would be interested.

    Why not promote your services to non-IM types? Branch out and do on-page audits. content writing, offer up high quality guest blogging etc. Maybe press releases?

    And sell beyond the IM niche. I always get the feeling 99% of the WF is just filled with people who don't make much money at this.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9665456].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author nik0
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Vikram73 View Post

      I think your business is largely selling stuff to affiliate marketers but others would be interested.

      Why not promote your services to non-IM types? Branch out and do on-page audits. content writing, offer up high quality guest blogging etc. Maybe press releases?

      And sell beyond the IM niche. I always get the feeling 99% of the WF is just filled with people who don't make much money at this.
      Actually you would be surprised if you knew how many offline businesses purchase my service. When I look at it right now I think it's about 70/30, and the 30 percent of affiliate marketeers are in fact only 10 clients but good for about 30 sites and they know pretty well what they are doing. My goal was to find more of such clients, but somehow I have a hard time convincing them of my service. I know they are out here but I can't find them.

      However it seems that there is either a huge decline in business owners, or that they simply pick the cheaper offers. Most of these business owners aren't very well educated on the subject so it's relatively easy to pull them in with low prices and nice words, often accompanied with statements like: "We don't tell you exactly how we rank you cause we don't want competitors duplicating our strategy". Which is nonsense and just an excuse to hide what they're doing (eg spamming).

      Have to admit that the copywriters received instructions to target the general IM crowd as I felt I was missing a piece of the pie, so probably I went wrong there right from the start.

      So perhaps my question would better be:

      How could I attract serious affiliate marketeers? I could offer them a free trial, but how do I identify them instead of being fooled by some freebee seeker? Perhaps most of the more serious affiliate marketeers either do it their selves or stepped away from Google, focusing on other things like paid traffic, afterall it ain't very easy to rank a non contextual one page squeeze page site, Google expects a little more then that these days.

      I agree most don't make much money and for a large part that is caused by lazyness and lack of budget, not to mention Google updates that bring their "hard work" to dust.

      So yeah I guess it all comes down to moving the path to a different type of customers, I have to make up my mind whether I want to go that route.

      You know, affiliate marketing is on my mind a lot, however Google is unpredictable especially in that segment, so it feels like taking a huge risk, while working for clients is somehow more safe, for example when I look at clients that tank and survive there is a huge difference between offline businesses and affiliate sites as in offline businesses mostly get away unaffected, while they receive the exact same links as the affiliate sites that tank in an instant.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9665484].message }}

Trending Topics