When Is It Spam? Intent Is The Issue Here

33 replies
Okay, there are really two issues here.

Let's take them one at a time.

Issue number one is the actual law, regulation, TOS or whatever you want to
call it. There are very specific "rules", if you will, about spam. If it can be
proven that a post, profile or whatever, was done with the specific intent
to spam the site, then it is quite possible that there can be consequences.
I for one would not want to take my chances IF I knew I was doing
something that I probably shouldn't be doing.

Issue number two is intent. This is a tough one to define. So to try to make
it more clear and to also show how difficult it is to prove intent, let's use
the WF as an example.

Let's take 3 scenarios.

1. Member comes to forum with no intent to spam and makes nothing but
useful posts. May or may not have signature. He found forum on his own.

2. Member comes to forum only with intent to spam and makes nothing
but nonsense one line posts. Has signature pointing to his site. He was
told to go to forum by one of those books that teaches you to make
money by going to forums. This particular book doesn't make any mention
of contributing useful info...just making posts to get your sig seen.

3. Member comes to forum with intent to "monetize" it. Makes useful posts,
contributes to forum but does have a signature for the specific purpose
of getting people to buy from him. He was also sent by a book but this
one points out the proper way to use a forum, by contributing relevant
info.

Okay, member 1 is an obvious "I'm just here to contribute" as there is
nothing that he is selling.

Member 2 is also obvious as he is making nothing but meaningless posts
to get his sig seen.

Member 1 will be allowed to stay and member 2 will probably be booted
off the forum rather quickly.

The gray area comes in with member 3, which becomes compounded if
that book reaches hundreds of people.

Suddenly, the WF is inundated with new members almost overnight at a
very alarming rate. It is obvious that somebody wrote a book saying, "Go
to the WF and start posting."

But wait, all these people, or at least most of them, are actually
contributing. Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that how the forum grows and
ultimately, isn't that what the forum owner wants?

The problem is, this is a Utopian example and in the real world, it doesn't
exist.

Out of, say, 500 people, maybe only 400 of them will contribute even
though the book says not to spam. What happens is you have a swarm
of people who make life miserable for the forum owner.

Now we have a problem.

And this is where I understand where people who complain about spam
are coming from.

Suddenly you have this site which is being overrun by people who are
contributing nothing to the site other than to spam it.

What are you to do?

Well, while I agree that complaining to the FTC or whoever is probably
not going to get you anywhere, I do see the person's frustration and I
would feel the same way.

However, what I would do is simple, and it's what I've done with my own
blogs. I don't allow comments on them at all. Now, if I'm running a forum,
I realize I have a more complex problem. If I disallow signatures, I may
lose a lot of members. But I also don't want to spend all day deleting
accounts.

It's not an easy position to be in and before you judge the person
making the complaints, try to put yourself in his shoes.

This of course brings up an even bigger issue of...

"When is it legit and when are we spamming?"

In the case of submitting articles to Ezine Articles, there is no problem
there as EZA has to approve each article. If you write a crap article, or
it's obvious you're just trying to get backlinks, your article will be denied.
You're going to have to actually write something that contributes to the
directory. So the process itself weeds out the spammers.

But what about the directories that have no approval process? They are
very easy to abuse. They also have lousy PRs, for the most part, so
aren't much use to the writer anyway.

Ultimately, the site owner has to decide what he's going to do with his
site. If he doesn't like the new method that's being taught, to go to his
site and create a profile with a backlink, then simply don't allow links in
the profile...problem solved.

Will this cut down on members? Probably, but if they're not contributing
anything useful anyway, what is he actually losing? Nothing.

Before we go around throwing stones, we need to take a look at our own
houses and be honest about how we would react if the same thing
happened to us.

I am interested in how other marketers view this issues since, after all,
most of us do leverage other sites to get traffic to ours.

How would you feel if somebody leveraged your site to get traffic to
theirs and contributed nothing of value in the process?

It's, at the very least, something to think about.
#intent #issue #spam
  • Profile picture of the author talfighel
    Steven,

    I am a moderator at another forum and when I see someone new joining the forum and posting his or hers link in their sig file and posts one post and never come back to the forum, that for me is considered SPAM.

    Same thing with articles. There are lots of crappy articles on EZA and will all know why it is crappy.

    Tal
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  • Profile picture of the author rhelaine
    Talfighel:

    so you see a guy creating a profile and posting an external link. what do you do?
    You flag him and follow what he is doing for a while?
    Trash the profile immediately?
    trash the link and tell him it will be ok to put it back after XXX meaningful posts?

    Would be interesting to see wht other Mod think about that issue
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    • Profile picture of the author talfighel
      Originally Posted by rhelaine View Post

      Talfighel:

      so you see a guy creating a profile and posting an external link. what do you do?
      You flag him and follow what he is doing for a while?
      Trash the profile immediately?
      trash the link and tell him it will be ok to put it back after XXX meaningful posts?

      Would be interesting to see wht other Mod think about that issue
      It's not my forum but my mentors forum. When someone is new and just want to post one post and have their link, we don't allow that so I sometimes ask my mentor to delete them.

      We don't get a lot of traffic but we do get a good amounts of spam every two days so we just delete it.

      Tal
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    I certainly would not be happy about folks spewing useless content on my properties - web and otherwise.

    I guess that's comment spam.

    What about profile spam?

    Is it spam when someone allows you to create a profile and leave a link in the profile?

    What are all the forms of spam??

    TL
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Legally, I think the only type of "spam" that is covered by law is unsolicited commercial eMail.

      There are state and federal statutes that cover the use of computer resources. I don't know if any of those would be applicable to forum "spam" but I doubt it. It could be, though, if such usage is contrary to the computer owner's terms for use. But, I don't really know for sure.

      Largely though, and excepting those incidents where the content of a post or profile falls under another law (such as copyright infringement, libel, etc.), it is up to the forum owner to determine what is and is not allowed.

      Why does intent matter? If my intent behind joining a forum is to promote myself and I do so by becoming an active and participating member of the community, am I any different from the person who joins with the intent of becoming an active and participating member of the community and ends up promoting his or her services through it? Could you distinguish between the two of us? I bet it would be very hard.

      What if someone else joins a forum with the intent of becoming an active and participating member, fills out their profile with a link to their site and then never returns because he lost interest or other issues in his life took precedence? How is he any different from someone who joins a forum with the intent simply to use it for a backlink, fills out their profile with a link and never returns? Both use the same amount of resources, no? Essentially, there is no difference between the two. So, as far as I can see, intent is of little matter here. The end result is the same.

      On a sidenote, the notion of separation between the individual and occupation seems to be a relatively recent phenomenon too. In days past, what you did was who you were. John was a blacksmith. Bill was a bishop. Tom was a miller. Eventually, they became known as John Blacksmith, Bill Bishop and Tom Miller. So, the idea that someone must necessarily separate themselves from what they do seems to be perhaps in conflict with thousands of years of human behavior. A separation between the commercial and the personal? Isn't our occupation personal? Isn't it part of who we are?

      As Paul put more succinctly while I was still composing this post, "You don't often need to know someone's intent. Look at what they do."

      The end result is the issue, not the intent.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Dan,
        Legally, I think the only type of "spam" that is covered by law is unsolicited commercial eMail.
        Nope.

        http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=58219622130

        The same language that made those suits possible would make it possible to sue - and win - for PM spamming in this forum.


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        • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          He was
          told to go to forum by one of those books that teaches you to make
          money by going to forums.
          Gasp. I wrote such a book. Forum Marketing SuperTips.

          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          This particular book doesn't make any mention
          of contributing useful info...just making posts to get your sig seen.
          Ah thank goodness I included this paragraph.

          Important note: You should of course endeavour to make genuine posts
          and build a relationship with the forum first before making an
          announcement type posting.



          And here is how I handle the sig file problem at my own forum.
          The rules are:

          Format

          Keep to one link only and two lines of text.

          Affiliate links are NOT allowed, use your own domain.

          (You may promote an affiliate program from your own domain but do not bend the rule by getting your own domain name and just redirecting it to an affiliate program)


          When to use a sig file

          Use of the sig file is a reward for your contribution to the forum with a helpful RESPONSE.

          If you are starting a thread or making a response which does not offer any additional help your sig file should not be used.

          Sig files will be removed for posts which offer no valuable information but are just made to publicise the sig file. Forum membership will be removed if further abused.

          If in doubt do not use.


          Harvey
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Dan,Nope.

          The Fight Goes On | Facebook

          The same language that made those suits possible would make it possible to sue - and win - for PM spamming in this forum.
          I did not know that.

          However, when looking at it, it seems (to me) that the laws Facebook mentions cover hacking, promotion of adult content, phishing and fraud.

          If someone was to PM spam this forum to sell a legitimate product, I'm not clear where that would put them at odds with these laws.
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  • Profile picture of the author jakesellers
    I think the best approach is one that enforces earned merit. For example, new users can be capped at 2 posts a day, at 5 posts you can have a signature with a link and your post cap goes up to 3, at 10 posts you can have live links in your post, and so on. 95% of the worst offenders won't jump through any hoops to do anything spammy and if behavior is initially throttled bad guys can be deleted before they do any damage.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Steven,

      You do make things unnecessarily complicated, don't you?

      You don't often need to know someone's intent. Look at what they do. If they post a bunch of useless one-liners, delete the posts. If they come in and immediately spam or create problems, delete the account.

      If they come in and start acting like they have "rights," or like they're owed some expected behavior, you may explain things once, or just give them a temporary ban with a very brief explanation of why.

      If they come in and post useful information, be thankful that you've got someone else helping the other members.

      It only gets tricky when you're dealing with someone who's been here longer and has contributed more to the place. And before anyone asks, yes, that does mean that new people have less leeway than folks who've been around and added to the forum for a while. A lot less, actually.

      Anyone can read the posts. That's free. Anything beyond that has to be earned.


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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Steven,

        You do make things unnecessarily complicated, don't you?
        I think it comes from too many years programming computers to do the
        most worthless things imaginable. Trying to justify my existence at some
        of those "jobs" was not an easy thing to do.
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    Member comes to forum with intent to "monetize" it. Makes useful posts, contributes to forum but does have a signature for the specific purpose of getting people to buy from him. He was also sent by a book but this one points out the proper way to use a forum, by contributing relevant info.
    I don't care. People who aren't actively disrupting the forum get to stay. If you put a link in your signature that leads to, say, a blog post promoting a lower drinking age... well, people might get mad. But that's not actively disrupting the forum. It doesn't matter how many people get mad about it, or how much noise they make, or how personally offensive I think your viewpoint is, so long as you behave yourself on the forum - it's not against the rules.

    Now, if you go around posting rants about underage drinking all over the forum, that's a different matter. But the link in your sig might lead anywhere, and anyone clicking on it should know that. Nobody makes you click on someone else's links. I'm not responsible for the links people put in their signatures, and so long as they follow the rules, I don't have any right to complain about it. If the rules need to be different, I should change them. When it becomes clear that not having a policy against something was a mistake, you create one and put it in place and give people a week to bring themselves into compliance.

    So if it's really disrupting the forum that you have blog posts about underage drinking, I'd create a policy that links in your signature cannot lead anywhere that promotes drugs, alcohol, tobacco, or gambling. Then I'd make an announcement and give you a week to comply. If you don't, you're breaking the rules, and I'll take action.

    The idea that it disrupts the forum by definition when your signature leads to a site where you're selling something is just stupid. Some people are anti-money and anti-business, but if that's against policy then they need to put it in the policy!
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Steven, you don't allow comments on your blogs??? I would have thought comments pretty much integral to a blog. Why not just moderate them? Wikipedia says: The ability for readers to leave comments in an interactive format is an important part of many blogs.
    As for this Forum and spam issues - yes it's annoying but pretty hard to police I would think. I'm more annoyed by the Black Hat and CPA scam WSOs.
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Dan,

      The hacking, phishing and fraud stuff in cases like this have generally involved just that: Hacking, phishing and fraud.

      The CAN-SPAM and related stuff has to do with how the laws involved refer to messaging systems and interactive service providers. It pretty clearly covers things like, oh... the Warrior Forum.

      The protections granted in the CDA, for example, immunize "interactive service providers" from most liability for damages resulting from good faith efforts to block unwanted content. That was recently held to apply to a security suite which offered regular updates delivered from the company's servers.


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      • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        The CAN-SPAM and related stuff has to do with how the laws involved refer to messaging systems and interactive service providers. It pretty clearly covers things like, oh... the Warrior Forum.

        The protections granted in the CDA, for example, immunize "interactive service providers" from most liability for damages resulting from good faith efforts to block unwanted content. That was recently held to apply to a security suite which offered regular updates delivered from the company's servers.
        Let's say that I have a contact form on my website, and I have a clear notice what the form may be used for, and someone uses the form to send me spam, which is not an authorized use of the form.

        Can I have them fined or thrown in jail? Because, that would be really desirable and helpful.

        Preferably a fine that they pay me, because if it just goes to the government, that really doesn't provide any type of restitution to me.

        And, if I can tell people that they are breaking federal laws when they violate my terms of use, that would be cool too.

        I am not being facetious, by the way.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Dan,

          If it only sends mail to you? I don't know about that one.

          Sorry. I could give an interpretation, but it'd be no more valuable than a wild-assed guess, barring more data on how the courts are handling things. I'm not aware of any suits on issues like that. They'd be awfully low priority stuff for LEOs, given the size of the problem and the lack of available resources.


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  • Profile picture of the author AmyBrown
    Intent does come into play with regards to profile creation. If the purpose is solely to get backlinks it's spam in my opinion. It seems to be considered more acceptable than other forms of spam because it's largely invisible. However, in one recent incident the profile creation became part of the activity stream scrolling on the front page of a site and the site owner was annoyed. Laws, rules, and TOS aside, there's something to be said for being a good netizen and my standards just got a little higher.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      If it only sends mail to you? I don't know about that one.

      Sorry. I could give an interpretation, but it'd be no more valuable than a wild-assed guess, barring more data on how the courts are handling things. I'm not aware of any suits on issues like that. They'd be awfully low priority stuff for LEOs, given the size of the problem and the lack of available resources.
      Bummer. It'd be nice to have one of those big FBI warnings, or something like it, like VHS tapes of Hollywood movies always had. Do DVDs have those too? Don't remember. Guess I don't watch enough DVDs.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Steve, I'm with the crowd that doesn't try to determine intent...

        If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, treat it like a duck.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
      Originally Posted by AmyBrown View Post

      Intent does come into play with regards to profile creation. If the purpose is solely to get backlinks it's spam in my opinion. It seems to be considered more acceptable than other forms of spam because it's largely invisible.
      How do you ever really know someone else's intent? If you have 100 people suddenly signup to use your site and they setup a profile with a link, you might be able to argue that they only intended to use your site for a backlink. But, how do you know a specific person's intent?

      And, if a person signs up with 100 sites and puts their link in their profile on those sites, you might argue that the person's intent is solely to use those sites for backlinks. But, how do you know that was a person's intent with a specific site?

      For example, I do online marketing. I also write fiction. I don't register with sites solely for the purpose of building backlinks, but let's say I did. Let's say I registered with 100 sites, filled out a profile and put in a link to my website. And, when going through this list of sites, I find one that is of interest to me. So, for that specific site, I'd be interested as a participant as well. So, I set up my profile and, as I would with any other site I use, plug in my website link. How do you know my intent?

      I mean, I know what you're saying, but we can only really measure intent by someone's actions and a single action is not necessarily sufficient to determine intent. Some spammers are fairly obvious to most of us. They might fill out a profile and plug in a bunch of links, many unrelated. So, sure, we can guess at their intent but it's only because of their actions that we can do so. But, if someone fills out a profile and plugs in a single link to his site, maybe even two links, can we make any reasonable guess at that individual's intent?
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      • Profile picture of the author AmyBrown
        Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post


        I mean, I know what you're saying, but we can only really measure intent by someone's actions and a single action is not necessarily sufficient to determine intent. Some spammers are fairly obvious to most of us. They might fill out a profile and plug in a bunch of links, many unrelated. So, sure, we can guess at their intent but it's only because of their actions that we can do so. But, if someone fills out a profile and plugs in a single link to his site, maybe even two links, can we make any reasonable guess at that individual's intent?
        Yes, I think most site owners can make a reasonable guess as to an individual's intent, although I agree it might not be 100% accurate. There may be collateral damage, just as occasionally happens on this forum.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          David,
          There are a lot of Napoleon complexes on message boards I've found over the 8 years or so that I've been on them.
          That's true, but it's unlikely they choose you out of the thousands of people they deal with just because of their Napoleon complexes. And not many people with that problem end up with moderator access anyway.

          It is more likely that there's something about your posts that fits a pattern indicative of a problem type.

          I can't say that I've noticed anything like that in your posts, but I haven't seen many of them. I can point you to a couple of things just from this one that are potentially signs of a pattern. The first is your username. Folks who use words like expert, "guru," master, maven/mavin, genius or other superlatives are more likely to engage in behavior that's outside the accepted norms.

          There are other types of title words that tend to indicate other patterns. Black hat and evil, freedom and liberator, prince, king and other royal titles, etc. None are conclusive by themselves, but they're small signs to keep an eye open.

          A second is shown in the quote above. The assumption that action in contradiction of your desires indicates some psychological fault on the part of the person disagreeing.

          That's a much bigger sign. When it's accompanied by the statement that the treatment in question is a regular thing across multiple forums or an extended time, it's a really big one.


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  • Profile picture of the author DavidTheMavin
    I always try to contribute to any community as much as I can, but people for some reason don't know the difference between valuable content and spam or bs, and a lot of my stuff end up getting deleted. Happened at dp and it happens here all the time as well.

    There are a lot of Napoleon complexes on message boards I've found over the 8 years or so that I've been on them.
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  • Profile picture of the author MarketingMama
    interesting info here. i would say that you can only know what people DO (what they post), NOT what they THINK (their intent).

    Therefore, as long as a member meets all the posting rules, then whether or not a person has the "intent" to just get their website link shown a zillion times should be irrelevant.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Morgan
      You've clearly given a lot of thought to this.

      I am somewhat of a #3, and I'm not afraid to admit it. I am here to contribute, teach people and engage in active discussions, after all I learn from them as well. I can contribute tons of valuable information to a forum and give away tons of free help and trade secrets. But I keep a link in my sig, and where appropriate I plug my own stuff.

      Is this bad? I see it as a simple cost of doing business. Should they throw me out? Well if they did they would lose a lot of valuable knowledge. There are plenty of forums out there that don't allow sig links or any links at all, and they are boring, slow and have very few active members. Personally, I rarely even join forums like this.

      You have to really weigh what a person is contributing to a forum, and determine on a case by case basis whether it's worth having that person in th e forum. Do I plug my own stuff in every post? No. Do I only post in threads that I can sell something in? No. So I figure it's a decent tradeoff, I contribute enough to make it worth me having a link in my sig.

      So you're right, Intent is a lot of it. My real intent here is to build relationships, and help people while getting help from others, and learn more. If they removed sig links on WF, I wouldn't leave the forum, because I could still fulfill that need. But if everyone else left because of that, I wouldn't be able to contribute or interact and then I would leave. Make sense?

      Giving people an opportunity to advertise as well as contribute draws in enough people to make this place succeed. Obviously the owner(s) know that and that's why it's as successful as it is.
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  • Profile picture of the author kimothy777
    Speaking about intent, I am a newbie here, about 4 weeks. I gave some meaningful comments and contributed to the forum without ever giving any links. My sole intention is to learn form the advice of others and contribute.
    a couple of weeks back I asked two questions of a technical nature and all of a sudden received an e mail saying I had been banned for week with the explanation of "this is not your technical support forum". I was pretty upset about it.
    Is this the norm for innocent suspects like myself who mean no harm and do not spam?
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  • Profile picture of the author worlok
    I think that posting links in profiles is okay because let's face it, unless someone goes to your profile who are you really bothering? You're probably just hoping that it's a "do follow" site. I hate sites that get all bent about that, you know, the backlinks things with profiles. Get a grip already I think of them. They act like only they are allowed to make a living online. I mean, it becomes elitist at some point. Many of them act like the online equivalent of anti capitalists. They think that the Internet should be some egalitarian business free zone, while hypocritically expecting to make THEIR living from it. Those types disgust me.

    People who post crap posts just to get their sig seen are also lowlifes of sorts.

    The other people like most of us want to leverage but aren't meaning to "spam". Give us a break. ;-)
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
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      • Profile picture of the author worlok
        Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises View Post

        I am tech-challenged so correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't each profile created on a site eat up some portion of bandwidth or disk space for the site in question?

        If I'm correct, then I can certainly see why a site owner would take issue with hundreds of people creating a profile but not actually taking part in the community at all.

        Tina G
        It could happen, but I think the sites that get THAT many where it makes that type of difference are probably the huge ones that aren't going to be bankrupted or seriously inconvenienced by it. Let's face it, to be attractive for that don't you have to be a certain size or something? Popularity? I mean if they are large and popular they make money and have lots of disk space. Look, it the Internet and if they want to play they gotta pay, to an extent.

        If we are going to start damning that then let's all hang it up because then we are bing immoral or whatever. You can't possibly participate to that extent on every site you seek backlinks from. You would never have any time to do anything else, would you? Besides, don't certain sites get something (bragging rights or some advertising fodder if nothing else) from increased user roles? All I'm saying is that there has to be a middle ground here.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Morgan
          Originally Posted by worlok View Post

          If we are going to start damning that then let's all hang it up because then we are bing immoral or whatever. You can't possibly participate to that extent on every site you seek backlinks from. You would never have any time to do anything else, would you? Besides, don't certain sites get something (bragging rights or some advertising fodder if nothing else) from increased user roles? All I'm saying is that there has to be a middle ground here.

          I think there is a middle ground, and WF straddles it nicely. They allow us to have links in our sig, or post classifieds in the WSO section. And because we find success with that, we are motivated to post and help out and participate. I think they're doing it right.
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  • You could just have a waiting period for posting any kind of link or maybe a minimum number of posts.

    Intent is irrelevant. Every one of us here with links in our sigs obviously intends to promote our stuff. Who cares? As long as we're contributing to the discussion, it's all copacetic. It's like taking a business card to a party -- nothing wrong with it unless you're bothering people and pitching people overtly. In fact, it's a pretty smart thing to do.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
    Attempting to determine intent is a little too Big Brother for me. I think posts need to be taken at face value. If someone is providing useful information, then God bless them, regardless of their intent.

    Only through action can we determine the heart of a cause. If someone comes here with nefarious intent, their actions will determine their fate. Actions are concrete evidence. Justice can be served when evidence through action is provided.

    This whole issue is one of the reasons I don't have a signature. I value this community. I try to add positively to it when I can. The thought that someone will come along and throw accusations at me for trying to help sickens me. I'd rather just stay out of it altogether. Am I losing sales because of it? Certainly, but that's okay to me. I'd rather lose a sale than have to defend myself to some free-wheelin' "we're all moderators" power hungry member. Case in point - that last sentence is going to piss somebody off and I'll probably have to defend an infraction.
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    Raising a child is akin to knowing you're getting fired in 18 years and having to train your replacement without actively sabotaging them.

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  • Profile picture of the author mikemcmillan
    Okay, so I have a cookout and invite 20 people. A woman I know comes with her husband (whom I have never met) and they pull up in a shiny, red, brand new 5 liter XK Jag. During the course of the evening someone is going to ask this guy what he does for a living--people are curious creatures.

    The guy is talking with 2-3 other people and he says he's in the seminar promoting business. As an afterthought, he pulls out a business card and gives it to the person who asked him what he did. I have no problem with that--in fact I might ask him for a card myself.

    Now, suppose this guy pulls up in his 100k Jag, gets out and pulls a wad of business cards out of his pocket. He walks up to person after person saying, "Hey, I'm Bill Brown and I'm promoting a business financing seminar this Friday and I'd like to see you there. Give my office a call and we'll get you registered."

    After he's harassed a dozen or so of my friends I'd probably bag up a couple of burgers and walk up to him and say, "Here's your dinner--it's a take out meal! Get your ass in your car and leave us alone."

    I think of forums as kind of like that. A lot of times I'll click on a sig file for someone I see is making interesting posts just because I want to know what they're selling--I'm curious.

    On the other hand, when I see people ragging about their own products in their posts I get a little up tight. They are kind of like the guy with the business cards at my party. I was here one night and I saw a new guy who had a ton of posts on this forum on the first page and all were one or two word posts. He was clearly trying to get his post count up and I PM'd the mod and told him to put the guy out of his misery. Within a couple minutes all his stuff was gone.

    I think of clicking on a sig file as asking someone for their business card. But when I see someone who, in essense, is trolling this or any other forum throwing their business card at everyone--I would like to un-invite them from the party.

    CATEGORY: Esoteric but useful in a fuzzy-logic manner...
    When I was about 6-8 years old I was at my grandparents house on a Saturday night. A movie titled, The Day The Earth Stood Still came on. It was released in 1951, it was black and white, and it starred Michael Rennie (Klaatu, the spaceman), Patricial Neal (Helen), and and Sam Jaffe (Professor Barnhardt).

    About ten year ago my daughter got me the DVD and we have a ritual of getting together on my birthday and watching it. My birthday was last week. If you've seen the movie, I hope you get as choked up as I do at this one part.

    Klaatu, the spaceman, is standing outside of professory Barnhardt's home (in a garden by the back door). A young boy, Bobby, is with him. Klaatu wants to see the professor but the door is locked and the professor is gone. Bobby tells Klaatu it's too bad the professor is gone. Klaatu says, "Perhaps we need to leave a calling card."

    Klaatu looks through the window and sees a chalkboard filled with integral, summation, and partial derivative symbols--a problem in celestial mechanics. Bobby tells Klaatu the professor must be working on a problem. Klaatu says, "He'll never solve it that way!"

    Klaatu wiggles the door open and proceeds to make corrections in the equations written on the board. That was his calling card. He left the phone number of the house he was staying at and the professor later called him.

    My Point: I look at meaningful posts here just like professor Barnhardt looked at the corrections Klaatu made on his chalkboard. A meaningful post makes me want to learn more about the person who made it. I may check out their sig file or their profile. To me a sig file is more than a pitch made my a poster, it tells me something about the person--what they are interested in, what they know about, what they have to share with others.

    In "spaceman terms" when a poster tries to tell me that 2 + 2 = 5, I am not likely to ask them for a calling card (click on their sig file). But when someone explains how to travel through time and space, (as Klaatu did with prof. Barnhardt) I am likely to want to contact them--to learn more about them. I hate to see that become impossible on forums when sig files are not allowed.

    Gort! Klaatu, barada nikto!
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