Why ask if you argue with the answers?

[Andyhenry]

There seem to be a lot of people around right now that ask questions and then constantly argue with the answers they get, or complain that the answers weren't what they wanted, or there weren't enough of them.

This forum is great and full of friendly and knowledgeable people but why ask if you're not prepared to accept the answers?

If you think you can do something for free and people respond that you need money - so what? Even if you start out with no money, you can gradually build up to get what you need if there are resources which need more than you start with.

If you think you need money and people respond with free methods - that doesn't mean they're wrong, or that you don't need money - everyone has different experiences and a different idea of what's right/wrong, good/bad etc....

If you ask a question - accept that the answers might not all be like you were expecting or wanted to hear but don't start arguing with them.

The short version of being successful online is that it really all comes down to your mindset and ability to take consistent action.

You don't need money and you don't need any tools to get started.

You want to create a membership? all you need is a way to take a payment and provide access to a product (even if that's just using a password on the download for the file and a paypal button).

There are no 'right' answers for all IM strategies - it's a pick and mix opportunity. Everyone has a different approach and many are right - for those people. That has nothing to do with what's right for you.

So whatever people respond to your question with - it's right for them. If it's not for you - just ignore it and move on.

The number of threads with people arguing over irrelevant things is crazy and when you post a new question and don't get the response you wanted - remember this:

1 - we're all over the world, so when you post we may be asleep.

2 - this forum is not new - we've probably discussed almost everything here at length at some point and when you've answered/commented on a particular subject so many times - you just don't bother doing it every time someone else asks again (use the forum search function)

So, whatever the responses to your posts - just get on with your business and don't get dragged into prolonged debates about strategies you're not even using, or things you're not doing, and if people disagree - let them, but don't get pissed off and lose your cool as it'll hurt you in more ways than you know.

This community used to be a lot more positive and you could happily have long interesting debates without them turning into arguments.

Maybe there are too many egos around for that now, but it would be nice if we could cut down on the arguing and increase the signal to noise ratio here again.

Andy

p.s but you may disagree

[dsmpublishing]

Spot on andy

it does annoy me when they argue with the answers - but take article writing as an example we all get different results and even though ezinearticles may be good for one person goarticles will work well for the other!

kind regards


sam
X

[Paul Myers]

Andy,

Why ask if you argue with the answers?

To prove how smart I am? Because I was told it was a fun hobby? To keep discussion going until someone tells me what I want to hear?

I'm thinking C, dude. Except in the case of certain trolls, in which case it's A and B.


Paul

[R Hagel]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Andy,To prove how smart I am? Because I was told it was a fun hobby? To keep discussion going until someone tells me what I want to hear?

I'm thinking C, dude. Except in the case of certain trolls, in which case it's A and B.

I'm thinking C as well. Although we certainly could make a nice list:

Because I ran out of beer.
Because the cable went out.
Because my 1000HP car and 80 inch TV aren't enough.
Because my mother had a schizophrenogenic parenting style.

(and so on)

Cheers,
Becky

[Ewan Cormack]

I think a lot of people ask a question here and they're not really looking for an answer, they're just looking for reassurance that they're doing the right thing.

So when someone tells them they're doing the WRONG thing, they just ignore or argue.

It's a shame really, because they'll carry on doing the wrong thing...

[tommygadget]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Andy,To prove how smart I am? Because I was told it was a fun hobby? To keep discussion going until someone tells me what I want to hear?

I'm thinking C, dude. Except in the case of certain trolls, in which case it's A and B.


Paul

Originally Posted by R Hagel

I'm thinking C as well. Although we certainly could make a nice list:

Because I ran out of beer.
Because the cable went out.
Because my 1000HP car and 80 inch TV aren't enough.
Because my mother had a schizophrenogenic parenting style.

(and so on)

Cheers,
Becky

Excellent replies. Just proves that people are the same everywhere. You post to a forum looking for that $5K in a week plan and it's nowhere to be had, what's up with that?

TomG.

[Paul Myers]

Becky,

schizophrenogenic parenting style.

New word! Bonus!

Man, I'll bet there's all sorts of debate over whether that concept is even possible, much less demonstrable.

Anyway...

It's also possible that someone could argue because they're confused by the answer. I've seen the occasional instance where I thought that was the problem. Hard to get people to recognize or admit such a thing, though, so I'm not sure.


Paul

[adamv]

Nice post Andy. One of my biggest pet peeves in life is people asking questions they don't want to hear the answer to. It's such a huge waste of time. Asking questions and arguing with the people who take time out of their schedules to answer is just as bad.

The people that are most guilty of this type of behavior are the ones with the biggest sense of entitlement. As if everyone that participates in this forum is here to serve them and give them all the answers they need on a silver platter or better yet, just set up and run their business for them.

I don't have time for people like that and usually move on and try to ignore those posts.

There are also lots of people on this forum who ask questions and are very greatful for the answers they recieve. They ask questions that are probably on the minds of others that won't ask the question for whatever reason and when these questions get answered many people benefit from the knowledge being shared.

These are the types of posts that I like the most. The ones where people are learning and helping each other and where many people can get some benefit. I just hope this place doesn't get over run by the trolls, the ingrates, and the time stealers. This is a great forum and there are a lot of great people here that intend to keep it that way.

[Stefan Vee]

This should be a sticky post.

Well done, Andy!

[Paul Myers]

Adam,

One of my biggest pet peeves in life is people asking questions they don't want to hear the answer to.

Amen.

I've gotten to where I'll often tell people, "You don't want to ask me that," or, "My opinion on that may not be what you're looking for." Or I'll just ask them, "Are you sure you want me to answer that?"

Saves a lot of time. If they insist, and then don't like the answer, I'll just remind them that they were warned, and change the subject. "How about them Yankees, huh?"


Paul

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

There seem to be a lot of people around right now that ask questions and then constantly argue with the answers they get, or complain that the answers weren't what they wanted, or there weren't enough of them.

It's all because of violated expectations.

When a person has a social interaction, they internally predict the outcome of that interaction. When the actual outcome doesn't match their prediction, they become agitated. And when people are agitated, they get defensive.

See, the guy who barely writes English and comes into the forum asking people to review his sales letter is optimistic and full of hope. He imagines that people will read his letter and say "wow, you are really good at this" and then he'll feel all proud of himself. Instead, people say "that page is garbage, you don't even speak coherent English, go hire a real copywriter" - and he gets upset.

Can you blame him? I mean, really? Sometimes we're doing the equivalent of a teacher passing out graded papers and telling some student "you are about three percentage points ahead of being retarded, and slipping fast." It may be true, but we could be nicer about it, if only because the things we say are public.

Particularly with European and western Asian people, you have this notion of honour. If you tell me my work is a big steaming pile of poop, it doesn't matter whether you're right, you've insulted me - and I need to defend my honour.

So try to leave an escape for these people when you criticise. You can be pretty vicious with people and still leave an escape route, so they don't feel they've been insulted.

Hmm... perhaps there's a report in there somewhere. It's certainly more complex than a single post. Dovetails quite nicely with the NICHE persuasion technique I "invented" (where "invented" is defined as "stolen out of an old book and twisted into an appealing acronym").

[MichaelHiles]

I understand the point you're making Andy, but some people learn through more of a Socratic debate. I tend to rely on more of a dialectical method, because I am generally not satisfied with just accepting an answer at face value, but also understanding the deeper foundational basis of the answer. That can only be derived through inquiry and debate about alternatives.

[R Hagel]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Becky,New word! Bonus!

Cool. I just knew that psych degree would come in handy some day.


----

This falls under the "prove how smart I am" category that Paul mentioned...

Some folks come here looking to carve out a niche in IM and set themselves up as an expert. So they ask a question that's highly related to their supposed expertise so that hopefully the answers will go in the direction they want them to go. Then they can "prove" that they are the expert by shooting down all the answers.

An example question: Is there an easier way to [insert whatever here]?

The post then goes on to explain the post author's brilliant solution, thus demonstrating expertise. And the OP can argue with any answers to show his solution is the best. Of course to get the full details of his brilliant solution, you need to buy the WSO.

Cheers,
Becky

[Andyhenry]

Originally Posted by MichaelHiles

I understand the point you're making Andy, but some people learn through more of a Socratic debate. I tend to rely on more of a dialectical method, because I am generally not satisfied with just accepting an answer at face value, but also understanding the deeper foundational basis of the answer. That can only be derived through inquiry and debate about alternatives.

Well,

To be honest I'm not trying to make any point other than that whether you agree with someone or not - there are better ways to get a more positive outcome than getting offended and arguing with the responders to your post.

I love a good debate and that's one of the things I like about this forum - there are some clever people here who (no matter who you are) can call you out when you make a stupid error (in your thinking, typing or anything else).

Obviously we all have our own view of the world and that comes attached with expectations, habits and lessons - but everyone's is different and when it comes to success - that's even different for each person to.

So when it comes to trying to move yourself and your business forward, there's little to be gained by emotionally attaching yourself to your position when inviting others to get involved. Passion is a great thing, but if you're genuinely looking to advance your position jumping into an emotional negative standpoint just because you didn't get what you expected from someone else's interaction just doesn't get you anywhere.

There are a lot of members in this forum and you can't imagine how many different perspectives that means and since peoples perspectives change over time as well, when you ask a question - you can pretty much guarantee that if enough people read it and respond, you're highly likely to get an answer you didn't expect.

But that can be a good thing.

Andy

[Paul Myers]

It's all because of violated expectations.

Really, really good post. This is worth re-reading several times, folks.

A little story might be useful here on how to flip this tendency around.

I regularly ask my subscribers for feedback. I read it all, reply to as much as possible, and occasionally point out in the newsletter when someone has shown me a better way to do something. Thus, at least some portion of the group gets to realize that I really want to hear what they have to say.

I recently "finished" a new product. I sent a note to some folks who'd bought things from me in the past, offering it to them cheap, and asked for comments. It involves things I've done for so long that I was not at all sure I hadn't skipped important steps in the explanation, and wanted to make sure that it was complete before doing a real roll-out.

I got dozens of critiques. Since people knew I actually wanted ways to improve the thing, that's what they sent me. Not gratuitous testimonials, which used to be the response to that request (and which annoyed me), but serious, in-depth, thoughtful criticisms. Stuff that will make the end product much better.

The gratuitous testimonials I used to get when I asked for feedback were people trying to meet what they thought I expected. They annoyed me because they weren't what I was expecting (or had asked for.)

On the other hand, when they know you really value the criticism, they'll give it to you, and they'll do it in the spirit of mutual improvement that you're looking for.

The same mechanism was at work as the one you describe. It also ties in with Adam's comments about not asking for what you don't want.

Yeah. I think you could do a nice report on the subject. I'd certainly be interested in reading it. You've got some interesting perspectives on it, to be sure.


Paul

[Andyhenry]

This is what is at the heart of coaching and counciling.

Most problems in relationships are due to unmet expectations, but lack of effective communication is what turns them in to problems. Sometimes just letting someone know what you expect is all that is needed.

If you think that someone will wash the dishes if they love you - but they think buying flowers shows they love you, you get flowers and dirty dishes

Having a huge community like this has many benefits, but it's so easy (especially since it's text-based communication) for people to misunderstand your comments.

Quite often when someone asks a questions here - they get the answer they need, rather than the answer they were looking for, so they think people don't understand what they meant - but really some people know what they meant, saw what they wanted wouldn't help them and then gave them what they needed - but because they are not in a position to appreciate that dynamic - they get annoyed.

Unmet expectations are only a problem as long as you don't realise you have them. Once they're in the open you either accept them, change them or communicate them more effectively.

I think part of the issue here is a combination of peoples ego not being reined-in and that they forget there are real people here, all with their own version of what's important and what works - so if you're into article marketing, you may think everyone sees it like you do - but you're making assumptions which have no foundation so when someone says "why bother - that sucks", you can respond before remembering they're not looking at it from your perspective and their comment is right 'for them'.

The threads I like most here are when someone opens discussion about an issue they're pretty familiar with and through people questioning their basic assumptions, some new learnings come out for everyone.

If you're not open to having your position questioned without getting defensive it's a bit more difficult to get those threads to move without people having a go at each other defending their position.

Andy

[Steven Wagenheim]

Andy, unfortunately, a lot of people just want validation that their way of
thinking is the correct way and when they don't get it, they argue.

How do I know?

Because I used to have this same problem and freely admit it. It took me a
long time (too long) to finally realize that I should start listening to some of
the people more knowledgeable than myself instead of arguing with them
all the time.

Today, I practically cling onto every word that somebody I respect says
because I know that they're probably telling me something that I need
to listen to.

Had I done this 30 years ago, I'd probably be retired by now.

[JayXtreme]

That whole post up there from CDarklock is spot on here...

If you needed a "right" answer Andy (I know you don't, jus' sayin'), I'd be willing to bet he's VERY close to the truth, if not exactly right.

And so well laid out too.. Bravo CD!

Peace

Jay

[Fernando Veloso]

I am European, Portuguese, and i don't feel my expectations were "violated" when senior warrior i respect so much told me my website was a piece of crap or my sales letter was terrible (and boy, it was).

I just wanted to know the truth. And they told me the truth and what needed to be fixed. Best of all, they did for free.

If some people here can't handle the truth - even when it's handed for free by people who know what they're talking about - i guess they'll have a hard time all their life. Not just here.

[JohnMcCabe]

On the rare occasions I start a thread, I do so with two things in mind:

1. Ain't none of us as smart as all of us, and

2. When someone gives you a gift, you smile and say thank you. Later on, in private, you can decide if you'll keep the gift, pass it on to someone else, or throw it away.

That approach has served me well on several forums (fora?) over the years.

CDarklock, your post helped me see how what I consider a blunt, plain-spoken style could cause hurt feelings. In the future, I'll be looking for a way to let the other person save face when offering less than positive critiques. Thanks...

[Andyhenry]

Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe

2. When someone gives you a gift, you smile and say thank you. Later on, in private, you can decide if you'll keep the gift, pass it on to someone else, or throw it away.

That approach has served me well on several forums (fora?) over the years.

That's a good point - it applies in many ways.

If someone offers you a gift and you don't accept it - who's is it?

If someone offers you an insult and you don't accept it - who's is it?

[Mustafa Khundmiri]

It's human nature - we all are unpredictable to a high extent, which is why it's intelligent to believe in yourself, but not trust