Is Ignorance Bliss? (Question on forum rules & etiquette)

[Steve Diamond]

Forgive me if this has already been covered (and point me to the right thread). I've searched and couldn't find this specific issue, though I know there have been recent discussions about the culture shock in regard to some new warriors.

I've noticed a trend that I think ought to be discouraged, and I'm not sure what the appropriate action is.

Some new members are posting responses in threads that ask for information. That's great. But the kind of responses that disturb me are ones that seem to show that the poster, to put it bluntly, doesn't have a clue. I can think of three interpretations:

1. They're trying to come across as an authority and failing.
2. They're trying to boost their post count by saying any old thing.
3. They're deliberate trolls.

With some of these posts I find it hard to distinguish among those alternatives. But if any of them is correct, then these are junk posts. I've considered issuing an infraction for some of these, but I've stopped because trolling isn't an infractionable offense. I can't even find where it's against the rules. And ignorance certainly isn't an offense. It's a great state that's full of promise. As long as one recognizes that one is ignorant, then one is ripe for learning. But when one is ignorant and doesn't know it, and broadcasts ignorant opinions as if they were authoritative, then there's a problem.

Has anyone else noticed these posts? Any thoughts about the most appropriate response? Maybe if they're ignored they'll eventually subside.

Thanks.

Steve

[Tom Brite]

I have indeed noticed these posts however choose to ignore them.

Everyone learns in their own way and if making themselves look a fool leads them to making money then why stop them?

Okay sometimes they are annoying but one time we were all new... everyone learns from their mistakes! Heck my mistakes have actually made me more money in the future than being successful first time.

I do however understand your point!

Tom Brite

[John Taylor]

Steve,

I'd say all three of your "types" need to be
discouraged from that kind of behaviour.

Giving an infraction may help them to learn
what behaviour isn't acceptable. Alternatively,
use the report button.

Doing nothing is effectively condoning poor
behaviour and will result in much more of
the same.

John

[Valorie]

Steve-
I don't even know what trolling is.

As a newbie to the forum I try to be careful with what I post. If I can contribute something worthwhile, I post.

I spend a whole lot of time reading posts, not just for information, but to see what kind of reaction other people have to the posts. I'm starting to get a better idea of what will set people off, etc.

You must know, though, there are a whole lot of reports floating around, both free and paid, that say to come here and get your post count up and go ahead and start launching WSO's. I bought into that too. Now I realize that this forum is amazing as far as networking, and finding a mentor go. When I have sent PMs to get more information/clarification on a post, every single warrior has responded to me in a kind manner. And of course, there is so much information here, that I start to read the threads and suddenly realize I've lost an hour here.

That reminds me, I better get back to my writing...

[Bill Farnham]

Steve,

You can do what a lot of us do...report it as a "junk post" or equiv.

Same goes for spam, trolling, vulgar, etc.

I can tell this really works to keep the quality of this forum where it should be.

We ALL have an obligation to keep this place THE destination for quality IM knowledge, ideas, and inspiration.

Just use that little triangle under your avatar to report inappropriate posts or threads. You'll have our undying gratitude.

KJ

[John Taylor]

Valorie,

Originally Posted by Valorie

I don't even know what trolling is.

This Squidoo lens may help you:
Forum Trolls & Whiners

John

[noah.whitmore]

I think that it's important to point out that we can't write people off just because they are new to the forum. I'm sure that sometimes there are people who are very experienced working online, but they just joined the forum.

I'm not trying to defend new members of the forum just because I am one, though. Because I know just as well as anybody that some posts just suck.

-Noah Whitmore

[Steve Diamond]

Originally Posted by Killer Joe

Steve,

You can do what a lot of us do...report it as a "junk post" or equiv.

Same goes for spam, trolling, vulgar, etc.

I can tell this really works to keep the quality of this forum where it should be.

We ALL have an obligation to keep this place THE destination for quality IM knowledge, ideas, and inspiration.

Just use that little triangle under your avatar to report inappropriate posts or threads. You'll have our undying gratitude.

KJ

Well, you see, that's my problem. I don't find any rule against flaunting one's ignorance or even against trolling. The caption on the Report Post form says:

This is ONLY to be used to report spam, advertising messages, and problematic (harassment, fighting, or rude) posts.

As far as I can tell, that doesn't include the kind of post I'm talking about.

The infraction form is even more specific, and it doesn't include a category for this.

So I'm reluctant to take your advice unless and until I see a revision on those forms.

Steve

[Steve Diamond]

Originally Posted by Valorie

You must know, though, there are a whole lot of reports floating around, both free and paid, that say to come here and get your post count up and go ahead and start launching WSO's.

Yup. I think this is the main root of the problem. The Goobers responsible deserve some fate worse than death.

Steve

[Frank Donovan]

Hi Steve

If, in your opinion, people are posting false information in an attempt to come across as an authority, the simplest remedy would be to call them out in the thread.

This needn't be done offensively; just indicate where they're wrong and leave it to the readers to draw their own conclusions.

In fact, I'd say you had a member's responsibility to correct misleading advice if it's in an area in which you have knowledge and/or experience.

Don't be shy



Frank

[Jaysmyne]

I find that people acting this way are way in over their head usually if I choose to respond - I will respond nicely with a smile. As they say kill them with kindness!

[Bill Farnham]

Originally Posted by Steve Diamond

Well, you see, that's my problem. I don't find any rule against flaunting one's ignorance or even against trolling. The caption on the Report Post form says:

As far as I can tell, that doesn't include the kind of post I'm talking about.

The infraction form is even more specific, and it doesn't include a category for this.

So I'm reluctant to take your advice unless and until I see a revision on those forms.

Steve

Steve,

It takes a few Warriors to get a post or a thread deleted. Your best course of action if you see posts that you believe are detrimental to the forum is to hit the report button and include a few words as to why you think they are inappropriate.

If a few others also report the post/thread it will get reviewed. Sometimes a flagged post gets put back on the board.

Use your conscience. I don't flag post that I disagree with unless I think the content is harmful or misleading. But I do flag posts where I see a poster is gaming the forum, or otherwise does not have the spirit of a Warrior and the post validates that in a large way.

I can't influence the removal of any post/thread on my own, but as part of a consensous my 'votes' do count.

Your vote will have the same limited weight, and you should use it as such.

Doing nothing is wrong on many levels.

KJ

[Steve Diamond]

Originally Posted by Frank Donovan

In fact, I'd say you had a member's responsibility to correct misleading advice if it's in an area in which you have knowledge and/or experience.

Hi, Frank. I have done this occasionally. But if they're trolls it will just encourage them. And if they're trying to boost their post count they won't care, though it may help prevent others from being misled.

Steve

[John Taylor]

Steve,

Originally Posted by Steve Diamond

So I'm reluctant to take your advice unless and until I see a revision on those forms.

That's not going to happen, you can't legislate
for every minor infraction.. the drop down list
would bleed off your screen, over your keyboard
and probably fall into a concertina on the floor.

Unless other people agree with your assessment
reporting a post will do nothing more than bring
the post to the attention of the forum Admins.

John

[John Taylor]

Steve,

Originally Posted by Steve Diamond

Hi, Frank. I have done this occasionally. But if they're trolls it will just encourage them. And if they're trying to boost their post count they won't care, though it may help prevent others from being misled.

So, by at least trying, you'll get additional
evidence to help you to better form your
opinion.



John

[marmo]

OK have to play devils advocate here , no offense intended so here goes.

Well I do know there are plenty of folks here who struggle with english so perhaps some of these posts are just miss worded? Also maybe someone did try a certain thing and it did work for them even though say you might have tried a given method and it did not work. Who is to say who is right with advice and who is wrong ?

" But when one is ignorant and doesn't know it then there's a problem" ... that seems rather well judgemental to be honest... who can judge if one is ignorant ?

As per the dictionary: Unknowledgeable or uneducated; characterized by ignorance; Ill-mannered, crude

That just seems harsh. Are you sure of the posters intents ? ignorance is a strong word that IMO shouldn't be tossed around lightly. I have seen some threads here well posts that the info I did not per say agree with but I cannot judge or validate if the advice they published worked for them or not , I can only go by my own experiences and leave it at that.... but I try to be a good person and give someone the benefit of the doubt. Also you should know some people leave out a few key details of income methods they used like a certain niche they are making bank on or an affiliate program they are using or coming up with a unique twist on an old outdated dead method of IM.

I guess my point here is do you have credentials to judge each and every member who posts here if they are ignorant ( which means stupid basicly ) just because you yourself may see no value in a given post ? Does everyone agree in a given thread that X post is an ignorant post ?

I just feel calling someone ignorant is a strong word and not one to be tossed around lightly. Perhaps a gental Private message to a member if you have concerns could go a long way ? A word in private is often better then a public noodle whipping IMO , taking someone to the side for a " man to man " is a the gentlemanly thing to do IMO.

Just my two cents.

[JayXtreme]

Hi Steve

I had a similar "dilemma" about what to report and what not to report, so I posted a question to the forum admin/moderators and the response from them was to report any posts that I felt were bad/against forum rules and etiquette and then leave the decision up to the moderators.

Your clicking of the report post button is to alert the mods/admin to a potential problem, it is then their choice to nuke the post or let it stay.

Peace

Jay

[JohnMcCabe]

Frank is correct here...

Ignoring the behavior goes beyond condoning it. Not calling out bad information lends a tacit endorsement.

In the case of:

They're trying to come across as an authority and failing.

They need to be called out, or the misinformation will spread. Drawing attention to, and refuting, bad information is not the same as "being mean to newbies", as some would suggest. Those suggesting it is are most likely still feeling the sting of a virtual slap on the knuckles.

Ignoring patently wrong or misleading information could cause harm to both the original poster of the bad information, and to the lurkers who see the information and believe it.

They're trying to boost their post count by saying any old thing.

This can be considered a form of forum spam. If the post makes no sense and adds nothing to the conversation (thread), you have a choice.

You can take a look at the poster's profile. Typical signs that the poster may not have the best interests of the community in mind are no name, location, avatar - basically no identity except for a username, and usually a very recent join date followed by a succession of one-liners (often spread over multiple sections of the forum).

If you think the poster may simply be ignorant, you can issue an infraction and explain the perception; if you think the intent is less pure, report the thread and let the moderators decide.

They're deliberate trolls.

Deliberate trolls needto be squashed. There is a difference between being cantankerous and trolling. There are a few trolls who have such distinctive patterns that they're quickly recognized and banned regardless of their username.

One way trolls often reveal themselves is by making a statement they know others will disagree with, then attacking the person or people who disagree with them. Once they do that, they've broken the rules and should be reported.

[JohnMcCabe]

marmo, first off, there's a big difference between 'ignorant' and 'stupid'; the first can be cured, the second is permanent.

There are indeed clear-cut cases where misinformation needs to be challenged. Often, it's when someone offers a method or tactic that may have worked at one time but no longer does.

An example might be someone advising article marketers to slip affiliate links into the articles they submit to EZA. That might have worked once, but it's been against EZA's guidelines for a long time. It's better to clear up the misconception than to leave it unchallenged and have someone come back complaining that they can't get their articles approved even though they followed the advice they read here.

As Frank Donovan said, there's a way to call out bad information without attacking the provider of that information. Nail the message, spare the messenger.

If the problem is a simple problem with a second or third language, it give the poster a chance to improve their skills and clarify their message so that it says what they intended it to say.

[Steve Diamond]

Originally Posted by marmo

do you have credentials to judge each and every member who posts here if they are ignorant ( which means stupid basicly ) just because you yourself may see no value in a given post ?

I just feel calling someone ignorant is a strong word and not one to be tossed around lightly.

Ignorant does not mean stupid. It means lacking in knowledge. They're two entirely different things. I made it clear in my OP that I think ignorance is a very promising state to be in because it means that there's a potential for learning. I don't use it as an insult at all. I use it in its original meaning: not knowing.

And I never said I had the credentials to judge whether every post was ignorant. I'm just referring to ones that I happen to know are wrong or misleading.

I'm not trying to be judgmental. I'm simply searching for a way to clean some of the obvious junk out of the forum.

Steve

[Steve Diamond]

Originally Posted by Killer Joe

It takes a few Warriors to get a post or a thread deleted. Your best course of action if you see posts that you believe are detrimnetal to the forum is to hit the report button and include a few words as to why you think they are inappropriate.

If a few others also report the post/thread it will get reviewed. Sometimes a flagged post gets put back on the board.

I just put 2 & 2 together. This explains why I'm seeing this kind of post in the less popular sections of the forum, like Adsense and Ad Networks. It's easier to boost one's post count while remaining under the radar in those sections.

I wonder whether that's part of the advice given in some of the goober reports that Valorie referred to.

Thanks. Very helpful.

Steve

[marmo]

Yes I know your trying to help steve I sent you a PM explaining I in no way shape or form meant my post as an attack or slander on ya. I just think it a nicer way of handling things to send a private PM 1st and open a dialog that way, if there is bad intentions on the posters part it should become very apparent in their reply or ...their lack of a reply.

and john thanks for the reply , I fully understand what you mean now steve and I have to agree with both of you , if a post could lead a wrrior into doing an act to say get them banned from EZA or some other negative harmfull thing to a fellow warrior then yes that needs to be addressed.

I had thought the OP ment more along the lines of say some of the humor posts I have seen here or posts not related to making money or 100 % IM ect.

Sorry if my post bothered anyone .... I just try my best to see both sides of anything, I do not like seeing anyones feelings hurt ( I am a sensitive guy < but not in any metro kind of way > ). I better understand now the intent and reasoning behind the OP then i did from just the top post thanks to JohnMcCabe's specific example.

[peter gibson]

I always report junk posts, and if they are giving bad advice I call them out when I can - sometimes even ask a few people with serious "know how" to jump in and tear the offending party a new one.

There's nothing worse to me then someone who is sincerely searching for an answer and some idiot gives an answer that is not only incorrect it is counterproductive.

I would ask anyone reading this thread now to do the same if they are not doing so already. Ignoring this kind of posting can be really harmful to someone looking for honest help. Since we all moderate here - somewhat - we should all be thinking and acting responsibly for those new and seeking help.

[Valorie]

Originally Posted by Steve Diamond

I wonder whether that's part of the advice given in some of the goober reports that Valorie referred to.

It isn't in any of the ones I've read. I don't pick up that sort of reading material any more, though.

[Marian Berghes]

Think I had too many beers and can't express myself properly

[CmdrStidd]

I have never seen what you are describing here on this forum. The Warriors love a challenge for the most part and they would accept any competition. In fact, I know of 3 right now that are in a friendly bit of competition in the same niche and they are passing skuttlebutt around and teasing one another over it but they are not reporting anyone's post that is in that niche. I myself have been faced with the idea of whether to report a post or not, especially when I look at their link and it is going back to an affiliate link. I recently found out (the hard way no less) that affiliate links are not allowed in the signatures but what about in the main body? There is no rule about it there. So I finally decided that it was still self promotion with out being asked about that topic and I reported it. I can understand the OPs problems with how to handle some of these situations.

Originally Posted by Marian Berghes

While your talking of reports and stuff, maybe you should consider all the people that report threads just because they are in that niche or because they use that system to make money.

I am honestly getting sick of people reporting stuff just because they think they own that niche/method and why should some wiseguy give it for free and make them competition? I mean that is just unheard of, how do they dare reveal your money making method for free right?

They use alot of excuses like "He was promoting his blog" or "he was trying to create buzz on an offer" and sht like that. I am really getting fed up....

Grow a pair people...if your are somewhat decent marketers you won't fear competition.

Ontopic: Yes, there are LOADS of junk posts.

[Bill Farnham]

Originally Posted by Marian Berghes

While your talking of reports and stuff, maybe you should consider all the people that report threads just because they are in that niche or because they use that system to make money.

I am honestly getting sick of people reporting stuff just because they think they own that niche/method and why should some wiseguy give it for free and make them competition? I mean that is just unheard of, how do they dare reveal your money making method for free right?

They use alot of excuses like "He was promoting his blog" or "he was trying to create buzz on an offer" and sht like that. I am really getting fed up....

Grow a pair people...if your are somewhat decent marketers you won't fear competition.

Ontopic: Yes, there are LOADS of junk posts.

The above response doesn't hold a drop of water.

The admins are not going to delete a post or thread because some squirm doesn't like someone else in their niche.

If people waste the mods time with worthless complaints like you have described they would find themselves complaining to deaf ears.

As for this tidbit... "They use alot of excuses like "He was promoting his blog" or "he was trying to create buzz on an offer" and sht like that. I am really getting fed up....", all I can say is you need to get a grasp of reality. This kind of brain-dead thinking will keep you in the poor house.

KJ

[peter gibson]

Originally Posted by Killer Joe

The above response doesn't hold a drop of water.

The admins are not going to delete a post or thread because some squirm doesn't like someone else in their niche.

If people waste the mods time with worthless complaints like you have described they would find themselves complaining to deaf ears.

As for this tidbit... "They use alot of excuses like "He was promoting his blog" or "he was trying to create buzz on an offer" and sht like that. I am really getting fed up....", all I can say is you need to get a grasp of reality. This kind of brain-dead thinking will keep you in the poor house.

KJ

I was struggling with that reply as well. I've never seen this occur since I've been on the forum. Unless I'm misunderstanding the point. ?

Any mod here worth a salt would instantly spot someone trying to hurt their competition.

[Marian Berghes]

Think I had too many beers and can't express myself properly 2

[Istvan Horvath]

Just wondering: how do you know/see who reported the post/thread?
I can see infractions if I look at someone's profile but never seen who is reporting a post.

[Marian Berghes]

Sry guys, It seems I can't express myself properly tonight, will come back with a proper post tomorrow

[ExRat]

Hi Marian,

but as long as the guy offers value trough his post, I don't care what was the intent with that post...as long as it helps somebody, I don't know why it should be reported

If those posts aren't reported (promotional posts disguised as helpful) then that's what will overtake and overwhelm.

How difficult is to make a post with some hype, fluff, and lies and add a modicum of helpful stuff in order to make sure that it complies with 'Marian's rule of thumb'?

Therefore, if you leave that loophole open, it will get filled - big time. People will simply use main discussion to funnel buyers to a WSO, a website, their list etc. And as soon as it was openly happening without resistance, the person who would prosper the most would be the one who could get away with creating the highest number of threads (under multiple IDs) and by telling the biggest lies in them and using sensationalism.

Therefore, in my opinion, it's pretty obvious why posts that are promotional aren't allowed.

You would be a better member of the community if you followed the rules that have been created (and adopted by the group) rather than following your own, presumably because you don't yet comprehend how sneaky people are and how desperate some people are and how even a small minority can create big problems in an online arena.

[Marian Berghes]

Yeah, you right didn't realize that by letting the rope abit loose it will finally get totally loose, sorta speak.


Like I said, didn't want to say exactly what I posted so I will come back with a proper post tomorrow when I am more "clear minded"

[Michael D]

To the OP:

I also think your rant can be applied to more then just "new people". I have seen plenty of posts by long time members with a high post count that are completely bull. But, most of these people are called out and anyone reading it can see what the truth really is. They just end up hurting themselves in the long run anyway.

Like Roger was saying too, I think a bigger problem is "helpful" posts that are really just self promotional at best and spam at the worst. There is one particular person who is terrible with this (I won't mention names obviously) who gets away with it day in and day out. In fact, for a while almost every post they made had some kind of self promotional hint behind it (some more obvious then others). I just think people need to look behind the veil sometimes and see what post are really there for.

[Marc Jager]

Whenever I have seen this sort of behaviour, the person committing the offense has been shut down immediately by several people who DO know the real facts. So I really don't see how this is a 'problem' we need to waste our time on

[Paul Myers]

Marmo,

Does everyone agree...

You could have ended the question right there. No matter what followed, the answer will be the same.

Steve,

I just put 2 & 2 together. This explains why I'm seeing this kind of post in the less popular sections of the forum, like Adsense and Ad Networks. It's easier to boost one's post count while remaining under the radar in those sections.

I wonder whether that's part of the advice given in some of the goober reports that Valorie referred to.

That's not in any of the books I've seen. I'm sure some people figure out on their own that they'll be less visible in those sections, but that doesn't seem to be the primary cause.

There are folks out there with a specific system for gaming this forum. They buy old accounts, pay ghost posters to build up post count for new ones, use sock puppets to promote their own or others' claims, etc.

Then, of course, there are the folks who hire people from Malaysia and the Phillipines and India to post here for backlinks. When you see a post with a sig file consisting of nothing but a keyphrase with a link ("best diet site" is a recent example), you know you're dealing with a paid poster.

The games aren't hard to spot, once you get the red flag and look at the accounts. There are just too many for a small group of individuals to keep up on.

These people would love nothing more than to have the place paralyzed by insistence that nothing get reported unless it was specifically and legalistically forbidden in the rules. They'd push the letter of the rules, and create havoc, which only works to their advantage.

As John pointed out, there are too many ways to abuse a forum to make rules for them all. If you tried to make rules that would cover them, you'd end up forbidding everything, just to avoid edge cases.

If you challenge what you believe to be inaccurate claims, you do everyone a service. If the poster is not a troll or "fake authority," they'll learn from your questions. If they are one of those two critters, their responses will get picked up on, and they'll be dealt with.


Paul

[Steve Diamond]

Thanks, Paul. Very sensible summary. Deserves to be part of the "Being a better member moderator" thread.

Steve