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#1 |
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Advanced Warrior
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Did anyone else notice "Scammer Saturday" over the weekend?
After loosing $250 on Saturday alone from fake "unauthorized transaction" purchases...I decided to finally give PayPal a call and see what can be done. Shame that you have to lose $1,000's on their system with the seller ALWAYS being wrong. Here was a tip I was given by the rep...which may help some of you. First, you should know that if you sell digital products, PayPal will NEVER side with you...because their protection policy does not cover digital products. BUT...the rep I worked with told me that all I needed to do, was start sending postcards with a download link printed on them...and get delivery confirmation for the postcard... That way, when the scammer cries wolf, you can finally take part in PayPal's Seller Protection Program... Anybody have any other ideas...? |
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#2 |
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Wouldn't a letter work better? If they see the postcard, the scammer might refuse to sign for it. If it's in a letter, they won't know what it is and may be more likely to sign for it.
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#3 |
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~* Warrior Fabulous *~
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But how many sales will you lose if you withdraw the allure of an instant download?
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and good with ketchup.
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#4 |
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Jack,
Dont sweat it. Are you willing to chop your golden goose just becouse of a few rotten eggs. In every industry there are scammers. You just cant run from them. When this has happened to me, i had wanted to start a name and shame associatiion forum of sort, where all IMers can gather and do a group Ban or something... But after thinking about it, i just thought that it was not worth the negativity , and i dropped the ball.. |
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#5 |
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Advanced Warrior
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@Dan...well, I am just talking about Delivery Confirmation...not Certified Mail...
Just the one that is green that gives you proof the post office delivered it...it doesn't have to be signed for. @goddess Actually, they are still getting the digital download...you are just sending the postcard so that PayPal will still cover the transaction if they say it is fraudulent. |
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#6 |
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@asianlunatic
Thanks for the advice... Actually, it's not the scammers that I am ticked at...so much as PayPal...since they won't even investigate these claims...using the "digital download" backdoor. Money talks...and as soon as PayPal starts having to eat the loss for these transactions, they will invest more time into plugging the holes that have been there for years. Unfortunately, at the moment, the only people who eat the loss are the sellers...and PayPal's standard reply is "sorry, there is nothing you can do..."
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#7 | |
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Quote:
I agree - It's not worth the effort. It's best just to plan for it, and move on gathering legitimate customers. | |
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#8 | |
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Senior Warrior Member
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Quote:
PayPal's seller protection policies seem a bit conflicted on this one. In some areas, they ask for delivery confirmation but on others they suggest you get a signature confirmation. | |
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#9 | |
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Quote:
And these are legitimate customers...who have figured out that PayPal always sides with the buyer...and never with the seller. But I do understand what you are saying...just keep moving along to find honest people...that's sound advice. Has anyone tested a merchant account vs. PayPal? Really tested it? How bad did your conversion rate drop/improve? | |
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#10 |
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Yeah, wish there was something. Anything by mail would reduce the buyers from outside the country (and most are legit).
But it's a pain in the *** when someone decides to scam you. |
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#11 |
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HyperActive Warrior
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PayPal requires a signature on transactions exceeding $250. Anything less than that must be verifiable through an on line source like USPS. Delivery Confirmation will cover you for that.
John |
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#12 |
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HyperActive Warrior
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I hear ya Jack, that has irritated me many times since I sell my products via paypal. I use DLGuard which takes down the IP Address, email, name and how many times the product was downoaded. What I started doing, and it seems to work at least 50% of the time if not more (hard to tell sometimes because it can take a month or more for paypal to 'investigate') is taking a snapshot of my DLGuard information and sending that in to paypal. This shows the buyer did indeed receive the product because it was downloaded (if they didnt download it your out of luck). I use a paint program (photoshop or something like it) to write on the snapshop poiting out all the important details.
I have had to do this numerous times with the "unauthorized payment" or "Item not received" chargebacks (grrrr damn $10 fee!) and it seems to work well most of the time..not all the time though, but hey better than nothing! Cheers, Kevin B. |
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#13 | |
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Quote:
But, if you're selling a website, where you only have one website to sell, then perhaps this method might be worthwhile. Escrow would be better, of course, but maybe this technique could be called the "poor man's PayPal escrow."
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#14 |
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HyperActive Warrior
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We all know that Paypal can be such an ***hole sometimes. Even though you have the postcard thing implemented, the whole process will just drain you off. If it's just a hand full of bad apples, just forget it and move on.
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#15 | |
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don't label me.
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Quote:
This can be dealt with most of the time by sending proof of delivery (ip address) to the person via email with a threat of giving it to PayPal to use for geo tracking to see if its the buyers ip and complaint ip are the same. In my experience, they cancel the complaint most of the time. | |
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She did what?
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#16 |
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http://IMCopywriting.com
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I know this is an older thread, but I wish there
was a way to stop these scammers, for legitimate sellers online. I've just had a user on this very forum scam me completely out of a few hundred dollars, $325 to be precise. This Warrior ordered copywriting services from me on 31 July 2009 and paid their 50% upfront ($325). She was delighted with my work and really excited at the prospect of receiving her sales copy. I put in the best part of 16 hours plus, researching her market, advising her how to optimise her website, carried out very detailed keyword research on her behalf, gave her a bunch of other SEO advice all as part of my overall package that I always throw in to over deliver on my promises... Lo and behold, she cancels the project claiming unforeseen household expenses, demands that I refund her her deposit (I refused based on my website TOS), she accepted that finally and told me to keep the money then ... and now 26th September 2009 issues an unauthorised charge with her credit card company. Paypal immediately deducts the full amount from my Paypal account, putting it straight into the red, demands that I pay them the money to bring it back into the black and on top of that issues me with an extra charge to top it all, adding insult to injury. So not only did this Warrior completely and utterly waste my time, she received my professional advice completely free - I don't receive a cent for it and to boot, even though I did my darned best to help her out, I'm now being charged by Paypal, extra money for this action that she instigated. It's just unbelievable the depths some people will go to to scam others out of money online. The only reason she gave for cancelling the project was these unrelated, unforeseen bills that had landed in her postal mailbox at home. Nothing to do with my service. It makes me sick that there is no recourse against this kind of thing and it's always the provider of goods that is left out of pocket, whilst the scammers get away with it scot free. It just puts you off completely doing business here. Certainly I'm thinking in the future that I will only accept orders from the UK only, at least then, in a situation like this, I can blast them through the Small Claims Court here in the UK and add on all of my extra expenses incurred in trying to sort the matter out, inconvenience etc. Four bloody hours it's just taken emailing all the correspondence off to Paypal, who I strongly suspect won't give a flying stuff about it. Basically it just feels like someone has just stolen $325 from me. Personally I'm tired of timewasters on this forum, I've 3 lots this past week to deal with. You give them your time, hours upon hours and all they do is to treat business here as a complete and utter joke. The last one was a top level marketer here, well respected, requested copywriting services directly - a dozen emails later doesn't act on his promises made, just an absolute waste of time dealing with these people. They drive me up the bloody wall! |
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#17 |
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This is just totally wrong. PayPal does side with the seller of digital products. I know this for a fact because I have only lost 2 disputes in 3 years of selling digital products.
If there is a dispute filed inside of paypal and you make it clear that the product is available online, that the cutomer has to log into a protected members area and that you have proof of their IP address logging into your protected area and downloading your product then you can win disputes. Blanket statements like this are nothing but inacurate and completely misinformed. |
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#18 | |
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If you sell a service use an escrow service to hold funds until each side agrees that the service has been preformed to satisfaction. This way neither side can scam the other and chargebacks can't happen.
PayPal is a good service for what it provides but if you are using it as a payment processor for selling services then your just asking for trouble. Quote:
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#19 |
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All I can say is that in my experience Paypal sided with the seller of digital products. May be it is because I paid from paypal balance and not from credit card (so I cant issue unauthroized charge on credit card). They basically said since its digital goods they cant do anything. What I paid for was a digital service that wasnt delivered at all. (not a downloadable ebook or something like that)
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#20 |
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http://IMCopywriting.com
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Well, I wonder if the same applies where the
service or goods rendered is not part of a membership site or a digital download, but is rather, consultation advice given online via email? It just seems so wrong to me, that Paypal without getting the other side of the story first, will without asking - in effect, will jump into your Paypal account and steal the money from you, straight out from underneath your nose. It's tantamount to someone holding a gun to you, demanding that you give them money out of your till. It's nothing but daylight robbery. In effect, for example, any copywriter could provide copywriting services to a client. The client pays the full amount upfront. The work is completed, the client is happy but then some weeks later some bills land on said clients doorstep, client decides to claw back some quick money, makes an unauthorised payment claim with his or her credit card company and instantly gets refunded the full amount, whilst the poor soddin' copywriter is left completely high and dry. Not only has the copywriter, in this example given to the client all of their time and expertise, but the client has taken him for every cent and on top of that, even with a job well done, Paypal issues the seller with a fee for the priviledge - well, words just fail me for once! It's truly absolutely, bloody ridiculous! What a bloody stupid state of affairs. How can that possibly under any circumstances, be considered fair? It's just nuts. Stark staring raving bonkers! |
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#21 |
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http://IMCopywriting.com
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Thanks Johnny.
Yes, I think that is definitely the way to go. Escrow it is from now on in. I appreciate your suggestion. Have a great day! Mark |
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#22 |
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Drunken Greek
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As much as it might suck, realistically, if you ran PayPal, how would you come up with a different policy on digital products? If the buyer files a dispute over a digital product, regardless of the reason, PayPal sides with the seller. They only tend to side with the buyer when a chargeback is made – mainly because it’s not worth their time or effort to perform a “Real” investigation.
I do a very large volume of sales monthly, but only encounter a few disputes, which I never lose. I think we’ve had maybe 2 charge backs this year and I tend to agree with PayPal in that it’s not worth pursuing beyond a token response. In other words, I’m not wasting $100 of my time to win back $10… That said, if I were you Mark, I might consider delivering my copy on CD/DVD to turn it into a physical product to show proof of delivery. Maybe two deliveries, i.e.; draft and then final copy? |
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#23 |
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I think you guys are mixing apples and oranges.
If you SELL a digital download product and someone pays via PayPal and later files a dispute trying to get a refund, PayPal will NOT HONOR IT. As soon as it's escalated to a "Dispute" rather than a "Complaint", PayPal will close it immediately. They do not deal with disputes for digital download products, period. OTOH, if someone pays via PayPal that's funded from a credit card, then PayPal's hands are tied if the buyer files a chargeback with the credit card issuer. PayPal has a process they are required to follow. You can appeal the chargeback, but without some pretty solid paperwork, you're not going to be successful. (I've experienced both issues with PayPal, and frankly, they've been very helpful with them. There's just not much they can do when it comes to chargebacks.) I don't think that using an escrow service would protect you against chargebacks, either. If you read the "fine print", there's probably a clause in there that says you're liable to repay the escrow service if they get hit with a chargeback from the buyer. That's because consumers have up to 6 months to dispute credit card charges, which are related in part to identity theft issues. One online biller has a particularly "nasty" policy (from the consumer's standpoint), but it's great from a seller's perspective -- CCBill.com. Their Terms of Service make it virtually impossible for anybody to succeed with a chargeback because you basically give them the right to file a lien or judgement against you in the amount of the chargeback plus legal and other fees. (You can imagine the online services they cater to...) In order to protect yourself fully, you need a written agreement that sets forth the various obligations of each party, including situations like this. I'd include a clause that says something like, once I've delivered anything to the client, they agree to payment in full. And if a credit card is used for payment, they agree that if a chargeback is submitted, they agree to reimburse me in full for the outstanding amount within a small time-frame, including all fees and related charges. They also agree that failure to honor any of their payment agreements will allow me to file a judgement in any court and submit it to a collection agency. I'd also throw in some stiff penalties. Having a contract like this will not prevent someone from filing a chargeback. But if they DID, I'd send them a copy of the agreement saying they have 10 days to pay in full, or reverse the chargeback; otherwise, you'll file a judgement against them. Since they've already agreed to your terms, it's virtually impossible for them to dispute in court. Have a lawyer draft it up in such a way that you can file for summary judgement without any problems. In this particular instance, you could get a lawyer to write a letter to the other party threatening to report them to several places for committing credit card fraud -- the chargeback form is an affidavit and if she told you she was having trouble with her bills, but she filed an affidavit citing another reason, there might be some grounds for legal action against her. It's like somebody screaming "Fire!" when there wasn't even any smoke. Fire Departments are not amused. Neither are credit card companies. It all depends how nasty you want to get. -David |
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#24 | |
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Serial Products Creator
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Mark, I feel for you buddy. I really do.
Simply because I have been through that once... actually twice. In both cases I ended up giving them partial refunds and taking a boatload of **** for it. It was then when I decided I'd only work with people who are willing to assume the risk themselves in their business and personal lives... and have funds to cover me, the service provider first... usually through Escrow. I sort of realize now why you need to cherry pick clients especially if you are going to be giving them your time and energy. You know the best part? These guys call YOU the scammer... in case they don't get a refund. Shocked me to no end initially, now just cracks me up. PP is really bad. I never used it in 2009... just MA's for online transactions and escrows for services and coaching. Please stop letting PP fuc3 with your life and business like they own it. Took my $900 those bastards, and they didn't even refund it back to the scammer, LOL. So at least my scammer was punished hard. If you must use them, please withdraw money regularly so you dont end up losing thousands. -Lakshay Quote:
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#25 |
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Big Mike has it right. i.e. "I’m not wasting $100 of my time to win back $10"
Really that's what it's all about. It is frustrating when you've delivered a legitimate product or service and someone scams you for a refund and I can understand Mark Andrew's position. I had the opposite thing happen when I saw a female warrior on the forum saying she needed to earn money by the weekend to pay her rent and asking for work. I asked her for a quote for some small project and she quoted $25. I then asked her how much she needed to pay her rent and she told me she was $100 short. The upshot was that I sent her $100 via Paypal. $25 to do the initial work and an advance against future work of $75.00 so that she could get her rent paid. I had to push and cajole her to do the initial work and then when I asked her to do the next small job she did not respond. Again I had to chase her (my time used again) and she said she would get the job done. Result? Despite chaising agin I never heard from her after that. I considered trying to get the money back but then reasoned as Big Mike said that it was just not worth my time to do so. Put it down to experience and moved on. |
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#26 |
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If you're talking about $50, or even $10, I agree with Mike.
But ... if it's hundreds, it's worth a letter from my lawyer. (PrePaid Legal is great for that kind of stuff!) If it's thousands, I'll get a contract written up FIRST. |
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#27 |
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#28 |
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Thank you everyone for your replies, I really
appreciate you taking the time out to help me with this one. I just can't stand scammers full stop, they just get right up my nose. Trust me, I used to post on one of the Nigerian Baiting Forums, baiting the scammers directly, wasting as much of their time as possible to stop them going after real people, that might fall for their scams. Guess you're right though about just moving on, in fact I know you are right but it's still a bitter pill to swallow. When a business is still young, with a massive recession on, just keeping yourself going everyday consumes a great deal of energy, to keep your head above water and absolutely determined not to become another statistic of this recession. Then you get another situation like this and it just, well, stops you wanting to help other people out and to be honest that's the worst part of it, because once you get scammed for a few hundred dollars or more, the inclination to keep on helping other people just disappears. Time is valuable and I now have to make up for that time lost and that revenue lost too and the only way I can do that is to stop giving myself away so much to others online, with a desire to help anyone and everyone out, which believe it or not, I really enjoy doing. Blimey, that was a bit of a mouthful lol. But, I don't know, well I do know, you just have to keep going don't you? Apply your own advice to yourself Mark, keep your chin up, press onwards, don't look back, look forwards, roll your sleeves up and get on with it. Hmmmmm. Right now, I'm taking my mates yacht out a few miles offshore to put in some sea fishing. That'll relax me again, hopefully there's some decent big swell out there. Nothing like a bit of white water crashing over the bow, doing a spot of fishing and cooking breakfast down below in the galley at 45 degrees, smacking your head on the cabin roof lol. Might knock some more sense into me. It'll do me good and put my mind off this. Right now I feel like tearing someone's head off. Time to log out I think and breathe deeply some ocean air. Cheers! Laters! Mark |
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#29 |
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Hi guys
sometimes it can work on its own merit a while ago i purchased some design work on the wf and they didnt deliver and paypal did actually refund me even though it was virtual goods. Lots of other people complained too so my feeling on it is that if people stick together and complain they will do something about it. The biggest flaw i find with paypal is the record delivery carry on for example if i was to sell clothes on ebay and didnt send it by recorded the person could complain and i could do nothing as certificate of posting isnt accepted. So if you sell tangiable goods please get recorded delivery or you could end up out of pocket. kind regards sam X |
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#30 |
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Guest
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I agree, I HATE SCAMMERS FULL STOP. I hate when people say they are great at something and you later find through searching and learning about them, that THEY ACTUALLY ADMIT THEY SUCK at what they are charging you TONS of money for and saying they are a professional when they are not...
I always provide a 100% money back guarantee, and feel anyone that has a GOOD REPUTATION online should also do the same. I also feel if you have a GOOD REPUTATION online, you usually provide a privacy policy, which I do as well. I would never share the info about a customer with anyone else, ever. Its PRIVATE...after all (privacy policy, duh). If a customer is unhappy in any way, I just give a refund...especially if its been only 1 day for a service you couldn't begin for a few days ...I'm usually always working on someone else's project as well...and thats what I told this person too....couldn't begin for a few days! If they did not RECEIVE Their product, AT ALL, of course...they should get a refund if they asked for it...its only fair. I also always approach vendors directly when I have any problems. I talk it out w/ them FIRST....and if they are being EXTREMELY unreasonable, and will not provide a 100% hassle free guarantee and refund as they said they would, then I have no choice but to pursue matters in other ways. Hey, and if they buy something and want a refund within say only 1 day...especially if it is a service related service that I could't even start for a few days (and told them so)...then when they asked me for a refund a DAY later...duh...why the heck wouldn't I give a refund. makes sense... and the last thing I would do to a customer is try to upsell them on 50 other services I may also provide...that they did not want, ask for, or need...I would FOCUS on giving them the 1 service they asked for...and doing that really well. But thats just me...thats how I would handle it... But I feel if the customer is nice enough to approach me directly prior to taking up matters in other ways, I always try to bend over to help, especially if its only a day after payment for a service that I couldnt begin for a few days. Interesting stuff...but I agree, I HATE SCAMMERS FULL STOP! |
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#31 |
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Advanced Warrior
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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Do folks feel that this issue is more prevalent in the IM than other markets? I have been selling products in the Health Niche and I am yet to encounter any problem. Having said that these are people who email me asking me what 'Confirm your subscription by clicking on the link' means and what they should do.
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#32 |
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HyperActive Warrior
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Jersey
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There is no foolproof way to protect yourself, and when it comes to digital downloads, especially if you are offering some refund period, in many cases it is not worth wasting the time to get pennies.
However, if you are offering services, you might want to consider adding a simple contract before you actually conduct any work. When I was in direct sales, selling a $3,000 product, we always had clients who were paying by credit card fax a copy of an agreement that clarified what they were buying, agreeing not to institute a charge back, reiterating that they were authorizing the charge, etc. I was told that the company always won any chargeback dispute where the agreement was sent. I was asked to do that myself recently when I was opening an advertising account. Had to fax a copy of my license as well for id. Whether or not it would hold up in a court, having someone sign a document agreeing not to chargeback, agreeing that any dispute will be handled in a specific way, agreeing they will pay your legal fees if you have to bring legal action to collect your fees, will definitely make them think twice before trying to take advantage of you. If you are providing services that require a big chunk of time, the extra step might be worth it. Robyn |
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#33 | |
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HyperActive Warrior
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Quote:
![]() A Tip that I recommend as a seller is to use a cart that supports fraud protection like whmcs that uses maxmind fraud detection and you never worry about chargebacks and paypal claims. Workss for me since early days of 2007 on various projects. | |
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#34 |
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Advanced Warrior
War Room Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 612
Thanks: 113
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I have an idea; use nanacast, make it a physical product, and triple the price. There, you get paypal protection AND you make more money.
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"Never increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of words required to explain anything"
William of Ockham (1285-1349) |
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#35 | |
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HyperActive Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 137
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Quote:
Good tip. Thanks. | |
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#36 |
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Wordsmith
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: , , USA.
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Jack...
I've always done this. As an example, I sold a product for $473. I provided instant download AND I mailed them a copy on CD with the delivery confirmation. I did it all through Pay Pal. My only guarantee was if the product was defective I would replace it. I sold well over $100K worth of this product and had less than 10 requests for refund. I denied every request because the buyers admitted to me via email that the product worked 100% as advertised. In each case the buyer opened a Pay Pal dispute. In every case I simply replied that the dispute was not reviewable per PP policies on physical products that had been delivered. I provided the USPS tracking code number in my response. In every case Pay Pal denied their claim and closed the dispute. Tsnyder |
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#37 | |
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HyperActive Warrior
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#38 | |
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Wordsmith
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Quote:
is simply that. USPS provides a tracking number and affixes a green label to the package. The label is scanned at every step along the way and can be tracked at usps.com The charge for this service is 55 cents. Tsnyder | |
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#39 |
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Finally! Living the dream
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: AZ
Posts: 310
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Thanked 25 Times in 17 Posts
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Delivery confirmation doesn't require a signature... Certified mail does. Delivery confirmation is just basically a tracking number that says that the post office delivered it. It costs $.55 from the USPS.
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| loophole, paypal, scammers, stop |
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