Possible PayPal loophole to stop scammers...

[Jack Duncan]

Did anyone else notice "Scammer Saturday" over the weekend?

After loosing $250 on Saturday alone from fake "unauthorized transaction" purchases...I decided to finally give PayPal a call and see what can be done.

Shame that you have to lose $1,000's on their system with the seller ALWAYS being wrong.

Here was a tip I was given by the rep...which may help some of you.

First, you should know that if you sell digital products, PayPal will NEVER side with you...because their protection policy does not cover digital products.

BUT...the rep I worked with told me that all I needed to do, was start sending postcards with a download link printed on them...and get delivery confirmation for the postcard...

That way, when the scammer cries wolf, you can finally take part in PayPal's Seller Protection Program...

Anybody have any other ideas...?

[Dan C. Rinnert]

Originally Posted by Jack Duncan

BUT...the rep I worked with told me that all I needed to do, was start sending postcards with a download link printed on them...and get delivery confirmation for the postcard...

Wouldn't a letter work better? If they see the postcard, the scammer might refuse to sign for it. If it's in a letter, they won't know what it is and may be more likely to sign for it.

[thegoddessofeleven]

But how many sales will you lose if you withdraw the allure of an instant download?

[asianlunatic]

Jack,

Dont sweat it. Are you willing to chop your golden goose just becouse of a few rotten eggs.

In every industry there are scammers. You just cant run from them.

When this has happened to me, i had wanted to start a name and shame associatiion forum of sort, where all IMers can gather and do a group Ban or something...

But after thinking about it, i just thought that it was not worth the negativity , and i dropped the ball..

[Jack Duncan]

@Dan...well, I am just talking about Delivery Confirmation...not Certified Mail...

Just the one that is green that gives you proof the post office delivered it...it doesn't have to be signed for.

@goddess

Actually, they are still getting the digital download...you are just sending the postcard so that PayPal will still cover the transaction if they say it is fraudulent.

[Jack Duncan]

@asianlunatic

Thanks for the advice...

Actually, it's not the scammers that I am ticked at...so much as PayPal...since they won't even investigate these claims...using the "digital download" backdoor.

Money talks...and as soon as PayPal starts having to eat the loss for these transactions, they will invest more time into plugging the holes that have been there for years.

Unfortunately, at the moment, the only people who eat the loss are the sellers...and PayPal's standard reply is "sorry, there is nothing you can do..."

[garyv]

Originally Posted by asianlunatic

Jack,

Dont sweat it. Are you willing to chop your golden goose just becouse of a few rotten eggs.

In every industry there are scammers. You just cant run from them.

When this has happened to me, i had wanted to start a name and shame associatiion forum of sort, where all IMers can gather and do a group Ban or something...

But after thinking about it, i just thought that it was not worth the negativity , and i dropped the ball..

I agree - It's not worth the effort. It's best just to plan for it, and move on gathering legitimate customers.

[Dan C. Rinnert]

Originally Posted by Jack Duncan

@Dan...well, I am just talking about Delivery Confirmation...not Certified Mail...

Just the one that is green that gives you proof the post office delivered it...it doesn't have to be signed for.

I was thinking of the pink one, the signature confirmation.

PayPal's seller protection policies seem a bit conflicted on this one. In some areas, they ask for delivery confirmation but on others they suggest you get a signature confirmation.

[Jack Duncan]

It's best just to plan for it, and move on gathering legitimate customers.

You can't actually plan for it...

And these are legitimate customers...who have figured out that PayPal always sides with the buyer...and never with the seller.

But I do understand what you are saying...just keep moving along to find honest people...that's sound advice.

Has anyone tested a merchant account vs. PayPal? Really tested it?

How bad did your conversion rate drop/improve?

[John Willer]

Yeah, wish there was something. Anything by mail would reduce the buyers from outside the country (and most are legit).

But it's a pain in the *** when someone decides to scam you.

[john_kennedy]

PayPal requires a signature on transactions exceeding $250. Anything less than that must be verifiable through an on line source like USPS. Delivery Confirmation will cover you for that.

John

[intellect22]

I hear ya Jack, that has irritated me many times since I sell my products via paypal. I use DLGuard which takes down the IP Address, email, name and how many times the product was downoaded. What I started doing, and it seems to work at least 50% of the time if not more (hard to tell sometimes because it can take a month or more for paypal to 'investigate') is taking a snapshot of my DLGuard information and sending that in to paypal. This shows the buyer did indeed receive the product because it was downloaded (if they didnt download it your out of luck). I use a paint program (photoshop or something like it) to write on the snapshop poiting out all the important details.

I have had to do this numerous times with the "unauthorized payment" or "Item not received" chargebacks (grrrr damn $10 fee!) and it seems to work well most of the time..not all the time though, but hey better than nothing!

Cheers,

Kevin B.

[Dan C. Rinnert]

Originally Posted by Jack Duncan

And these are legitimate customers...who have figured out that PayPal always sides with the buyer...and never with the seller.

But I do understand what you are saying...just keep moving along to find honest people...that's sound advice.

For "regular" digital products, like an eBook, it may be better to not spend a lot of time worrying about it and move on, unless it's a high ticket item, in which case you might want to go an extra mile.

But, if you're selling a website, where you only have one website to sell, then perhaps this method might be worthwhile. Escrow would be better, of course, but maybe this technique could be called the "poor man's PayPal escrow."

[abelacts]

We all know that Paypal can be such an ***hole sometimes. Even though you have the postcard thing implemented, the whole process will just drain you off. If it's just a hand full of bad apples, just forget it and move on.

[GarrieWilson]

Originally Posted by Jack Duncan

First, you should know that if you sell digital products, PayPal will NEVER side with you...because their protection policy does not cover digital products.

That's only true for people claiming unauthorized transaction. And the ones that are fraudulently claimed unauthorized, normally dont give you time to mail the post card before the complaint is filed.

This can be dealt with most of the time by sending proof of delivery (ip address) to the person via email with a threat of giving it to PayPal to use for geo tracking to see if its the buyers ip and complaint ip are the same.

In my experience, they cancel the complaint most of the time.

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

I know this is an older thread, but I wish there
was a way to stop these scammers, for legitimate
sellers online.

I've just had a user on this very forum scam me
completely out of a few hundred dollars, $325 to
be precise.

This Warrior ordered copywriting services from me
on 31 July 2009 and paid their 50% upfront ($325).

She was delighted with my work and really excited
at the prospect of receiving her sales copy.

I put in the best part of 16 hours plus, researching
her market, advising her how to optimise her website,
carried out very detailed keyword research on her
behalf, gave her a bunch of other SEO advice all as
part of my overall package that I always throw in
to over deliver on my promises...

Lo and behold, she cancels the project claiming
unforeseen household expenses, demands that I
refund her her deposit (I refused based on my
website TOS), she accepted that finally and told
me to keep the money then ... and now 26th
September 2009 issues an unauthorised charge
with her credit card company.

Paypal immediately deducts the full amount from
my Paypal account, putting it straight into the red,
demands that I pay them the money to bring it back
into the black and on top of that issues me with an
extra charge to top it all, adding insult to injury.

So not only did this Warrior completely and utterly
waste my time, she received my professional advice
completely free - I don't receive a cent for it and to
boot, even though I did my darned best to help her
out, I'm now being charged by Paypal, extra money
for this action that she instigated.

It's just unbelievable the depths some people will go
to to scam others out of money online.

The only reason she gave for cancelling the project
was these unrelated, unforeseen bills that had landed
in her postal mailbox at home. Nothing to do with my
service.

It makes me sick that there is no recourse against this
kind of thing and it's always the provider of goods that
is left out of pocket, whilst the scammers get away
with it scot free.

It just puts you off completely doing business here.

Certainly I'm thinking in the future that I will only
accept orders from the UK only, at least then, in a
situation like this, I can blast them through the Small
Claims Court here in the UK and add on all of my extra
expenses incurred in trying to sort the matter out,
inconvenience etc.

Four bloody hours it's just taken emailing all the
correspondence off to Paypal, who I strongly suspect
won't give a flying stuff about it.

Basically it just feels like someone has just stolen $325
from me.

Personally I'm tired of timewasters on this forum, I've 3
lots this past week to deal with. You give them your time,
hours upon hours and all they do is to treat business here
as a complete and utter joke.

The last one was a top level marketer here, well respected,
requested copywriting services directly - a dozen emails
later doesn't act on his promises made, just an absolute
waste of time dealing with these people.

They drive me up the bloody wall!

[Johnny Slater]

This is just totally wrong. PayPal does side with the seller of digital products. I know this for a fact because I have only lost 2 disputes in 3 years of selling digital products.

If there is a dispute filed inside of paypal and you make it clear that the product is available online, that the cutomer has to log into a protected members area and that you have proof of their IP address logging into your protected area and downloading your product then you can win disputes.

Blanket statements like this are nothing but inacurate and completely misinformed.

Originally Posted by Jack Duncan

First, you should know that if you sell digital products, PayPal will NEVER side with you...because their protection policy does not cover digital products.

[Johnny Slater]

If you sell a service use an escrow service to hold funds until each side agrees that the service has been preformed to satisfaction. This way neither side can scam the other and chargebacks can't happen.

PayPal is a good service for what it provides but if you are using it as a payment processor for selling services then your just asking for trouble.

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

I know this is an older thread, but I wish there
was a way to stop these scammers, for legitimate
sellers online.

I've just had a user on this very forum scam me
completely out of a few hundred dollars, $325 to
be precise.

This Warrior ordered copywriting services from me
on 31 July 2009 and paid their 50% upfront ($325).

She was delighted with my work and really excited
at the prospect of receiving her sales copy.

I put in the best part of 16 hours plus, researching
her market, advising her how to optimise her website,
carried out very detailed keyword research on her
behalf, gave her a bunch of other SEO advice all as
part of my overall package that I always throw in
to over deliver on my promises...

Lo and behold, she cancels the project claiming
unforeseen household expenses, demands that I
refund her her deposit (I refused based on my
website TOS), she accepted that finally and told
me to keep the money then ... and now 26th
September 2009 issues an unauthorised charge
with her credit card company.

Paypal immediately deducts the full amount from
my Paypal account, putting it straight into the red,
demands that I pay them the money to bring it back
into the black and on top of that issues me with an
extra charge to top it all, adding insult to injury.

So not only did this Warrior completely and utterly
waste my time, she received my professional advice
completely free - I don't receive a cent for it and to
boot, even though I did my darned best to help her
out, I'm now being charged by Paypal, extra money
for this action that she instigated.

It's just unbelievable the depths some people will go
to to scam others out of money online.

The only reason she gave for cancelling the project
was these unrelated, unforeseen bills that had landed
in her postal mailbox at home. Nothing to do with my
service.

It makes me sick that there is no recourse against this
kind of thing and it's always the provider of goods that
is left out of pocket, whilst the scammers get away
with it scot free.

It just puts you off completely doing business here.

Certainly I'm thinking in the future that I will only
accept orders from the UK only, at least then, in a
situation like this, I can blast them through the Small
Claims Court here in the UK and add on all of my extra
expenses incurred in trying to sort the matter out,
inconvenience etc.

Four bloody hours it's just taken emailing all the
correspondence off to Paypal, who I strongly suspect
won't give a flying stuff about it.

Basically it just feels like someone has just stolen $325
from me.

Personally I'm tired of timewasters on this forum, I've 3
lots this past week to deal with. You give them your time,
hours upon hours and all they do is to treat business here
as a complete and utter joke.

The last one was a top level marketer here, well respected,
requested copywriting services directly - a dozen emails
later doesn't act on his promises made, just an absolute
waste of time dealing with these people.

They drive me up the bloody wall!

[Traffic-Bug]

All I can say is that in my experience Paypal sided with the seller of digital products. May be it is because I paid from paypal balance and not from credit card (so I cant issue unauthroized charge on credit card). They basically said since its digital goods they cant do anything. What I paid for was a digital service that wasnt delivered at all. (not a downloadable ebook or something like that)

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Well, I wonder if the same applies where the
service or goods rendered is not part of a
membership site or a digital download, but is
rather, consultation advice given online via
email?

It just seems so wrong to me, that Paypal
without getting the other side of the story
first, will without asking - in effect, will jump
into your Paypal account and steal the money
from you, straight out from underneath your
nose.

It's tantamount to someone holding a gun to
you, demanding that you give them money out
of your till. It's nothing but daylight robbery.

In effect, for example, any copywriter could
provide copywriting services to a client. The
client pays the full amount upfront. The work
is completed, the client is happy but then some
weeks later some bills land on said clients
doorstep, client decides to claw back some
quick money, makes an unauthorised payment
claim with his or her credit card company and
instantly gets refunded the full amount, whilst
the poor soddin' copywriter is left completely
high and dry.

Not only has the copywriter, in this example given
to the client all of their time and expertise, but the
client has taken him for every cent and on top of
that, even with a job well done, Paypal issues the
seller with a fee for the priviledge - well, words
just fail me for once!

It's truly absolutely, bloody ridiculous!

What a bloody stupid state of affairs.

How can that possibly under any circumstances,
be considered fair?

It's just nuts. Stark staring raving bonkers!

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Thanks Johnny.

Yes, I think that is definitely the way to go.

Escrow it is from now on in.

I appreciate your suggestion.

Have a great day!

Mark

[BIG Mike]

As much as it might suck, realistically, if you ran PayPal, how would you come up with a different policy on digital products? If the buyer files a dispute over a digital product, regardless of the reason, PayPal sides with the seller. They only tend to side with the buyer when a chargeback is made – mainly because it’s not worth their time or effort to perform a “Real” investigation.

I do a very large volume of sales monthly, but only encounter a few disputes, which I never lose. I think we’ve had maybe 2 charge backs this year and I tend to agree with PayPal in that it’s not worth pursuing beyond a token response. In other words, I’m not wasting $100 of my time to win back $10…

That said, if I were you Mark, I might consider delivering my copy on CD/DVD to turn it into a physical product to show proof of delivery. Maybe two deliveries, i.e.; draft and then final copy?

[SageSound]

I think you guys are mixing apples and oranges.

If you SELL a digital download product and someone pays via PayPal and later files a dispute trying to get a refund, PayPal will NOT HONOR IT. As soon as it's escalated to a "Dispute" rather than a "Complaint", PayPal will close it immediately. They do not deal with disputes for digital download products, period.

OTOH, if someone pays via PayPal that's funded from a credit card, then PayPal's hands are tied if the buyer files a chargeback with the credit card issuer. PayPal has a process they are required to follow. You can appeal the chargeback, but without some pretty solid paperwork, you're not going to be successful.

(I've experienced both issues with PayPal, and frankly, they've been very helpful with them. There's just not much they can do when it comes to chargebacks.)

I don't think that using an escrow service would protect you against chargebacks, either. If you read the "fine print", there's probably a clause in there that says you're liable to repay the escrow service if they get hit with a chargeback from the buyer. That's because consumers have up to 6 months to dispute credit card charges, which are related in part to identity theft issues.

One online biller has a particularly "nasty" policy (from the consumer's standpoint), but it's great from a seller's perspective -- CCBill.com. Their Terms of Service make it virtually impossible for anybody to succeed with a chargeback because you basically give them the right to file a lien or judgement against you in the amount of the chargeback plus legal and other fees. (You can imagine the online services they cater to...)

In order to protect yourself fully, you need a written agreement that sets forth the various obligations of each party, including situations like this. I'd include a clause that says something like, once I've delivered anything to the client, they agree to payment in full. And if a credit card is used for payment, they agree that if a chargeback is submitted, they agree to reimburse me in full for the outstanding amount within a small time-frame, including all fees and related charges. They also agree that failure to honor any of their payment agreements will allow me to file a judgement in any court and submit it to a collection agency. I'd also throw in some stiff penalties.

Having a contract like this will not prevent someone from filing a chargeback. But if they DID, I'd send them a copy of the agreement saying they have 10 days to pay in full, or reverse the chargeback; otherwise, you'll file a judgement against them. Since they've already agreed to your terms, it's virtually impossible for them to dispute in court. Have a lawyer draft it up in such a way that you can file for summary judgement without any problems.

In this particular instance, you could get a lawyer to write a letter to the other party threatening to report them to several places for committing credit card fraud -- the chargeback form is an affidavit and if she told you she was having trouble with her bills, but she filed an affidavit citing another reason, there might be some grounds for legal action against her. It's like somebody screaming "Fire!" when there wasn't even any smoke. Fire Departments are not amused. Neither are credit card companies. It all depends how nasty you want to get.

-David

[lakshaybehl]

Mark, I feel for you buddy. I really do.

Simply because I have been through that once... actually twice. In both cases I ended up giving them partial refunds and taking a boatload of **** for it.

It was then when I decided I'd only work with people who are willing to assume the risk themselves in their business and personal lives... and have funds to cover me, the service provider first... usually through Escrow.

I sort of realize now why you need to cherry pick clients especially if you are going to be giving them your time and energy.

You know the best part? These guys call YOU the scammer... in case they don't get a refund. Shocked me to no end initially, now just cracks me up.

PP is really bad.

I never used it in 2009... just MA's for online transactions and escrows for services and coaching.

Please stop letting PP fuc3 with your life and business like they own it. Took my $900 those bastards, and they didn't even refund it back to the scammer, LOL. So at least my scammer was punished hard.

If you must use them, please withdraw money regularly so you dont end up losing thousands.

-Lakshay

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

I know this is an older thread, but I wish there
was a way to stop these scammers, for legitimate
sellers online.

I've just had a user on this very forum scam me
completely out of a few hundred dollars, $325 to
be precise.

This Warrior ordered copywriting services from me
on 31 July 2009 and paid their 50% upfront ($325).

She was delighted with my work and really excited
at the prospect of receiving her sales copy.

I put in the best part of 16 hours plus, researching
her market, advising her how to optimise her website,
carried out very detailed keyword research on her
behalf, gave her a bunch of other SEO advice all as
part of my overall package that I always throw in
to over deliver on my promises...

Lo and behold, she cancels the project claiming
unforeseen household expenses, demands that I
refund her her deposit (I refused based on my
website TOS), she accepted that finally and told
me to keep the money then ... and now 26th
September 2009 issues an unauthorised charge
with her credit card company.

Paypal immediately deducts the full amount from
my Paypal account, putting it straight into the red,
demands that I pay them the money to bring it back
into the black and on top of that issues me with an
extra charge to top it all, adding insult to injury.

So not only did this Warrior completely and utterly
waste my time, she received my professional advice
completely free - I don't receive a cent for it and to
boot, even though I did my darned best to help her
out, I'm now being charged by Paypal, extra money
for this action that she instigated.

It's just unbelievable the depths some people will go
to to scam others out of money online.

The only reason she gave for cancelling the project
was these unrelated, unforeseen bills that had landed
in her postal mailbox at home. Nothing to do with my
service.

It makes me sick that there is no recourse against this
kind of thing and it's always the provider of goods that
is left out of pocket, whilst the scammers get away
with it scot free.

It just puts you off completely doing business here.

Certainly I'm thinking in the future that I will only
accept orders from the UK only, at least then, in a
situation like this, I can blast them through the Small
Claims Court here in the UK and add on all of my extra
expenses incurred in trying to sort the matter out,
inconvenience etc.

Four bloody hours it's just taken emailing all the
correspondence off to Paypal, who I strongly suspect
won't give a flying stuff about it.

Basically it just feels like someone has just stolen $325
from me.

Personally I'm tired of timewasters on this forum, I've 3
lots this past week to deal with. You give them your time,
hours upon hours and all they do is to treat business here
as a complete and utter joke.

The last one was a top level marketer here, well respected,
requested copywriting services directly - a dozen emails
later doesn't act on his promises made, just an absolute
waste of time dealing with these people.

They drive me up the bloody wall!

[Roy Carter]

Big Mike has it right. i.e. "I’m not wasting $100 of my time to win back $10"

Really that's what it's all about. It is frustrating when you've delivered a legitimate product or service and someone scams you for a refund and I can understand Mark Andrew's position.

I had the opposite thing happen when I saw a female warrior on the forum saying she needed to earn money by the weekend to pay her rent and asking for work. I asked her for a quote for some small project and she quoted $25. I then asked her how much she needed to pay her rent and she told me she was $100 short.

The upshot was that I sent her $100 via Paypal. $25 to do the initial work and an advance against future work of $75.00 so that she could get her rent paid.

I had to push and cajole her to do the initial work and then when I asked her to do the next small job she did not respond. Again I had to chase her (my time used again) and she said she would get the job done. Result? Despite chaising agin I never heard from her after that.

I considered trying to get the money back but then reasoned as Big Mike said that it was just not worth my time to do so. Put it down to experience and moved on.

[SageSound]

If you're talking about $50, or even $10, I agree with Mike.

But ... if it's hundreds, it's worth a letter from my lawyer. (PrePaid Legal is great for that kind of stuff!)

If it's thousands, I'll get a contract written up FIRST.

[mikeyman120]

Originally Posted by lakshaybehl

If you must use them, please withdraw money regularly so you dont end up losing thousands.

-Lakshay

Withdraw Money Regularly - Now that's good advice! Paypal s#cks.

Mike

[MarkAndrews IMCopywriting]

Thank you everyone for your replies, I really
appreciate you taking the time out to help me
with this one.

I just can't stand scammers full stop, they just
get right up my nose.

Trust me, I used to post on one of the Nigerian
Baiting Forums, baiting the scammers directly,
wasting as much of their time as possible to stop
them going after real people, that might fall for
their scams.

Guess you're right though about just moving on,
in fact I know you are right but it's still a bitter
pill to swallow.

When a business is still young, with a massive
recession on, just keeping yourself going everyday
consumes a great deal of energy, to keep your
head above water and absolutely determined not
to become another statistic of this recession.

Then you get another situation like this and it just,
well, stops you wanting to help other people out
and to be honest that's the worst part of it,
because once you get scammed for a few hundred
dollars or more, the inclination to keep on helping
other people just disappears.

Time is valuable and I now have to make up for
that time lost and that revenue lost too and the
only way I can do that is to stop giving myself away
so much to others online, with a desire to help
anyone and everyone out, which believe it or not,
I really enjoy doing.

Blimey, that was a bit of a mouthful lol.

But, I don't know, well I do know, you just have to
keep going don't you? Apply your own advice to yourself
Mark, keep your chin up, press onwards, don't look back,
look forwards, roll your sleeves up and get on with it.

Hmmmmm.

Right now, I'm taking my mates yacht out a few miles
offshore to put in some sea fishing.

That'll relax me again, hopefully there's some decent big
swell out there. Nothing like a bit of white water crashing
over the bow, doing a spot of fishing and cooking
breakfast down below in the galley at 45 degrees,
smacking your head on the cabin roof lol.

Might knock some more sense into me.

It'll do me good and put my mind off this.

Right now I feel like tearing someone's head off.

Time to log out I think and breathe deeply some ocean air.

Cheers! Laters!


Mark

[dsmpublishing]

Hi guys

sometimes it can work on its own merit a while ago i purchased some design work on the wf and they didnt deliver and paypal did actually refund me even though it was virtual goods.

Lots of other people complained too so my feeling on it is that if people stick together and complain they will do something about it.

The biggest flaw i find with paypal is the record delivery carry on for example if i was to sell clothes on ebay and didnt send it by recorded the person could complain and i could do nothing as certificate of posting isnt accepted. So if you sell tangiable goods please get recorded delivery or you could end up out of pocket.

kind regards


sam
X

I agree, I HATE SCAMMERS FULL STOP. I hate when people say they are great at something and you later find through searching and learning about them, that THEY ACTUALLY ADMIT THEY SUCK at what they are charging you TONS of money for and saying they are a professional when they are not...

I always provide a 100% money back guarantee, and feel anyone that has a GOOD REPUTATION online should also do the same. I also feel if you have a GOOD REPUTATION online, you usually provide a privacy policy, which I do as well. I would never share the info about a customer with anyone else, ever. Its PRIVATE...after all (privacy policy, duh).

If a customer is unhappy in any way, I just give a refund...especially if its been only 1 day for a service you couldn't begin for a few days ...I'm usually always working on someone else's project as well...and thats what I told this person too....couldn't begin for a few days!

If they did not RECEIVE Their product, AT ALL, of course...they should get a refund if they asked for it...its only fair.

I also always approach vendors directly when I have any problems. I talk it out w/ them FIRST....and if they are being EXTREMELY unreasonable, and will not provide a 100% hassle free guarantee and refund as they said they would, then I have no choice but to pursue matters in other ways.

Hey, and if they buy something and want a refund within say only 1 day...especially if it is a service related service that I could't even start for a few days (and told them so)...then when they asked me for a refund a DAY later...duh...why the heck wouldn't I give a refund. makes sense...

and the last thing I would do to a customer is try to upsell them on 50 other services I may also provide...that they did not want, ask for, or need...I would FOCUS on giving them the 1 service they asked for...and doing that really well.

But thats just me...thats how I would handle it...

But I feel if the customer is nice enough to approach me directly prior to taking up matters in other ways, I always try to bend over to help, especially if its only a day after payment for a service that I couldnt begin for a few days.

Interesting stuff...but I agree, I HATE SCAMMERS FULL STOP!

[yourreviewer]

Do folks feel that this issue is more prevalent in the IM than other markets? I have been selling products in the Health Niche and I am yet to encounter any problem. Having said that these are people who email me asking me what 'Confirm your subscription by clicking on the link' means and what they should do.

[Robyn8243]

There is no foolproof way to protect yourself, and when it comes to digital downloads, especially if you are offering some refund period, in many cases it is not worth wasting the time to get pennies.

However, if you are offering services, you might want to consider adding a simple contract before you actually conduct any work.

When I was in direct sales, selling a $3,000 product, we always had clients who were paying by credit card fax a copy of an agreement that clarified what they were buying, agreeing not to institute a charge back, reiterating that they were authorizing the charge, etc. I was told that the company always won any chargeback dispute where the agreement was sent.

I was asked to do that myself recently when I was opening an advertising account. Had to fax a copy of my license as well for id.

Whether or not it would hold up in a court, having someone sign a document agreeing not to chargeback, agreeing that any dispute will be handled in a specific way, agreeing they will pay your legal fees if you have to bring legal action to collect your fees, will definitely make them think twice before trying to take advantage of you.

If you are providing services that require a big chunk of time, the extra step might be worth it.

Robyn

[Scripteen]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slater

This is just totally wrong. PayPal does side with the seller of digital products. I know this for a fact because I have only lost 2 disputes in 3 years of selling digital products.

If there is a dispute filed inside of paypal and you make it clear that the product is available online, that the cutomer has to log into a protected members area and that you have proof of their IP address logging into your protected area and downloading your product then you can win disputes.

Blanket statements like this are nothing but inacurate and completely misinformed.

I coded a special module to log all downloads with customer name / ip and time of download. Once when I got a dispute I provided screen shot of the log and I'm sure paypal matched the ip with the ip that uses paypal account and decided to release the payment to me leaving the scammer with wet pants

A Tip that I recommend as a seller is to use a cart that supports fraud protection like whmcs that uses maxmind fraud detection and you never worry about chargebacks and paypal claims.

Workss for me since early days of 2007 on various projects.

[Razer Rage]

I have an idea; use nanacast, make it a physical product, and triple the price. There, you get paypal protection AND you make more money.

[DAS_Matt]

Originally Posted by Scripteen

I coded a special module to log all downloads with customer name / ip and time of download. Once when I got a dispute I provided screen shot of the log and I'm sure paypal matched the ip with the ip that uses paypal account and decided to release the payment to me leaving the scammer with wet pants

A Tip that I recommend as a seller is to use a cart that supports fraud protection like whmcs that uses maxmind fraud detection and you never worry about chargebacks and paypal claims.

Workss for me since early days of 2007 on various projects.

Good tip. Thanks.

[Tsnyder]

Jack...

I've always done this. As an example, I sold a product for $473.
I provided instant download AND I mailed them a copy on CD with
the delivery confirmation.

I did it all through Pay Pal. My only guarantee was if the product
was defective I would replace it.

I sold well over $100K worth of this product and had less than 10
requests for refund. I denied every request because the buyers admitted
to me via email that the product worked 100% as advertised.

In each case the buyer opened a Pay Pal dispute. In every case I
simply replied that the dispute was not reviewable per PP policies on
physical products that had been delivered. I provided the USPS tracking
code number in my response.

In every case Pay Pal denied their claim and closed the dispute.

Tsnyder

[Scripteen]

Originally Posted by Tsnyder

Jack...

I've always done this. As an example, I sold a product for $473.
I provided instant download AND I mailed them a copy on CD with
the delivery confirmation.

I did it all through Pay Pal. My only guarantee was if the product
was defective I would replace it.

I sold well over $100K worth of this product and had less than 10
requests for refund. I denied every request because the buyers admitted
to me via email that the product worked 100% as advertised.

In each case the buyer opened a Pay Pal dispute. In every case I
simply replied that the dispute was not reviewable per PP policies on
physical products that had been delivered. I provided the USPS tracking
code number in my response.

In every case Pay Pal denied their claim and closed the dispute.

Tsnyder

What if he gets the instant download then denies to sign the delivery receipt? Does this still mark item as delivered in paypal delivery verification backend?

[Tsnyder]

Originally Posted by Scripteen

What if he gets the instant download then denies to sign the delivery receipt? Does this still mark item as delivered in paypal delivery verification backend?

As Jack stated above their is no signature required. Delivery confirmation
is simply that. USPS provides a tracking number and affixes a green label
to the package. The label is scanned at every step along the way and can
be tracked at usps.com

The charge for this service is 55 cents.

Tsnyder

[mr2monster]

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

Wouldn't a letter work better? If they see the postcard, the scammer might refuse to sign for it. If it's in a letter, they won't know what it is and may be more likely to sign for it.

Delivery confirmation doesn't require a signature... Certified mail does. Delivery confirmation is just basically a tracking number that says that the post office delivered it. It costs $.55 from the USPS.