JV Proposal Turns Into Threats and Tough Guy Contest

[EndGame]

How would you have handled the following situation?

I work for a reasonably high profile clickbank merchant, and as a result of this we get frequent requests for Joint Ventures. A lot of these fall short of our requirements or just don't match the direction our business is travelling. One of my job's is to act as an affiliate and JV manager for the company.

We have had a couple of JV requests from a reasonably high profile affiliate and Internet marketer who has started to make a name for himself lately. I won't mention names and I don't even know if they are a member here. This marketer JV's and works with a few of the typical Internet marketing names you often see in the Joint venture lists etc, so if this person got their pitch right to us, it'd be a no-brainer for us to promote.

The problem is on their application they said they were business partners with another marketer who has not paid our company affiliate commissions they have owed us for the best part of a year. We said despite this, we would give them a mail out if they promoted for us. They said would, and did not. We didn't mail for them as a result and we didn't hear from them.

I got an email and so did my boss from the same person again asking us to promote. I wrote back to them explaining we were really unhappy their business partner was totally ignoring us and not paying us, and even more disappointed that after saying he would promote, the JV proposer did not. On this basis, I posed the question "why should we partner with you and do business with you?"

I was direct with this person, and maybe a tad laconic but made clear in a polite but firm manner we were unhappy that they thought it was acceptable to ask us for a mail out given the past events.

The email I recieved in response basically just asked me to get my boss to get in touch personally with them, and also told me (very colloquial English) to watch how I speak to them because I didn't know who they were etc, and I would not dare speak to them like that face to face. It was written like it was a line out of one of those gangster rap songs.

This from a person who in the past had gone to great lengths to tell me what an excellent business person them and their business partner were, with good reputations. I didn't feel his email to me today was evidence of this.

A few mistakes I think this guy made:

1. Thinking because he knows a few "names" in the industry and has had a couple of largeish product launches, he was a genuine business person. Selling a couple thousand of ebooks doesn't in my opinion make you a skilled, competent or professional individual. Entrepreneurial? Yes, but then again, drug dealers are entrepreneurial.

2. Believing that after breaking promises that were effectively contractual he deserved a mail out to our lists? Despite our doubts about his business partner, we gave him a chance, and he took that opportunity to break a bond of trust.

3. Believing his tone was an appropriate response to genuine business-based concerns.

4. Believing that issuing implied threats to a potential JV's affiliate manager is acceptable and would lead me to recommend him for a promotion or to help him in this matter.


My boss checked all my emails before I wrote them and has backed me to the hilt. They are not interested in doing business with this guy and my email communicated that. I also invited the individual to ring my personal landline at the office and made clear if they were going to email me thinly veiled threats I would have no issues with handing our emails over to the authorities inlcuding the police. I also made it clear I was not really intimidated by his Internet tough guy approach. I kept it professional, but I have to admit I did snap back a bit.

My question is, how would you have handled it? Would you have ignored it? Do you think this is the kind of behaviour we should be seeing from the business partners of some of the bigger players in this community/industry?

I am really keen to get some opinion on this and learn from others how I might have handled this.

Dealing with these kinds of people really reminds me that there is such a thin line between genuine professionalism and business in Internet Marketing and opportunists and "hustlers". Dealing with these kinds of people really makes me question whether I should even be in this industry.

[J Elizabeth Dize]

I feel like after declining the JV and stating my reasons, I would have ignored other e-mails past that point. It's just a waste of your time to mess with people who "don't get it" like this

But I understand why you got riled up! This behavior should NOT be acceptable...but that's people :-)

[EndGame]

Thanks Jenn,

I agree, I should have just left it.

I am really pleased to say he took me up on my offer of ringing me, and we had a long chat with cooler heads on, and the conversation was productive. We didn't promise any promotions, but we decided to start a fresh and try and move forward.

So I am glad I didn't let it lie in a way, because it gave us both an opportunity to redeem ourselves.

I just got so angry about it, because I couldn't believe this was how a self-professed businessman thought this was acceptable. If I spoke this way with one of my offline clients, I'd be out of business!

The guy, as one of my colleagues told me after my email with him, was actually not a bad guy. And I probably came across as a difficult character, I think we both made some mistakes, but I just thought it was outraegous.

[Will Edwards]

"No matter how thin you slice it, there are always two sides." - Spinoza

I am sure your intention was good and, from your post, your approach seems very professional too, but perhaps the difficulty lies in not getting into the other person's head.

You were not able, for one reason or another, to get the other person to empathise with your situation; and that, I feel, is where the failing lies. I am not taking sides, of course, just trying to help.

Will

[EndGame]

I appreciate the input and I recognise that. When talking to this person on the phone he explained to me why he didn't like my email etc. I explained to him why we felt it was approrpiate to send the email and we seemed to understand each other better.

I am grateful for the input though.

[Jeremy Kelsall]

I think you handled it right. Why would you promote them if in some sense they owned you money and had not followed through on a previous agreement?

With that said...Promote my **** or I'll break your knee caps.

[EndGame]

*sigh*

Jeremy,


In response to your request for a JV, here's my personal office number...012..

Lol.

Thanks for the response though. I understand he didn't us the money personally, but he made a big thing of this guy being in partnership with him, which was frustrating. He took the time to explain this all to me properly on the phone though.

I am tempted to organise all future JV's on the phone after today, it's a much more useful way of communicating.

[Droopy Dawg]

Endgame... You handled it the best way you could, and I agree with that approach 100%... gotta love "toughguys"...

And Jeremy:

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

With that said...Promote my **** or I'll break your knee caps.

LMAO!! good stuff man I needed that laugh.

[alexshelton]

Originally Posted by EndGame

I am really pleased to say he took me up on my offer of ringing me

I hope you gave him a talking to Alex

[Jeremy Kelsall]

I know the guy personally might not have owed you the dough...But to me, you and your business partner are the same if you know what I mean.

[kentaiwan98]

Perhaps it's wise to be a bit more circumspect in replies... pointing out people's faults (esp. when they are things they cannot control) will definitely not win friends. Sorry that's just the way people are. It's likely he didn't know the full situation when he approached you, and you didn't know his complete situation.

That's one of the reasons I'm wary of these so-called JV offers going around: most tend to be couched on what the recipient can do for the JV offer rather than the other way around.

Am I off the mark here?

[Debbie Allen]

One other thing that has not been mentioned is that when we communicate via email we have only words to go on. Meaning simply that we cannot see a facial expression or hear a change in the tone of voice, etc. I am not saying that you misunderstood the email or that he misunderstood the meaning behind yours - but I do think the idea of a follow up phone conversation is very wise in such a situation as a JV proposal.

[Scott Murdaugh]

I am tempted to organise all future JV's on the phone after today, it's a much more useful way of communicating.

I agree, and think this is a big mistake a lot of people make... It's tough to form a REAL business relationship via email or even chat.

On the phone you can really get to know people and make sure both sides of the party are heard and understood.

I used to primarily use email, chat etc when I could get away with it... I've learned that for anything pretty serious, it's best to just pick up the phone.

Really simple idea, but it's something a lot of people don't do these days, and it can really help out a lot.

-Scott

[BrianMcLeod]

Good end-game, Endgame!

LOL

I think you handled it fine.

[Nick Lotter]

I agree with Debbie Allen. I often get into these kind of ''differences of opinions'' in my offline business, with clients, suppliers and competitors alike. I am a ''keep the peace'' kind of guy, but I also wont allow anybody to walk all over me or threaten me. If you allow people to do that to you, they will never respect you. Respect is very important. I would have done pretty much exactly what you did, with the only exception being that after receiving this guy's ''gangsta'' e-mail, I would have rather telephoned him (or preferably met in person) to clear the whole thing up man to man, so to speak, and THEN I would have sent a follow up e-mail confirming whatever we agreed on the phone. (i would also wait til i have calmed down before calling :-) ) This always works well for me, and people will respect you for standing for what you believe to be right and ethical and good business practice. I am sure this guy has more respect for you now :-)

[dave830]

I think you handled it smoothly.

And I think your best move was to invite him to call. Funny thing about people, they get all revved up writing emails, but when face to face- or on the phone with a person being civil- most of that tough guy persona fades.

[EndGame]

Thanks Nick,

And everyone else on this thread. If you disagree with my approach I would never take it as an insult. Because of the nature of this event I am keen to get some third party opinion on it and learn from the experience.

Nick, I would have rang him, but they never provide phone numbers. I have learnt a big lesson with this though, and the phone is an under-used powerful tool in this business.

If my only experience with some one is the words they have written on an email and vice versa, then it's going to be very difficult to form an opinion or them or do anything substantial or constructive.

Ultimately I am very happy with how it went. I have dealt with a lot of different people online, and dealt with similar instances, but never before in the context of a company I work with. There is a lot of Internet tough guys out there, but as soon as you get them on the phone, they take a completely different approach.

I've learnt from this and appreciate everyone who took the time to read my essay and reply!

Thanks again Warriors.

[Loren Woirhaye]

I have a couple of book by Roger Dawson, dean of
negotiating - you might want to pick up some of his
stuff, it can really help you develop strong skills in this
area.

You handled it well of course, once you figured out
the other guy's point-of-view. Good job. You learn
most from the deals that slip away - but in this case
you learned about how to build a bridge despite a rocky
start.

[Nick Lotter]

In that case, (not having his phone number) I reckon you handled it like a pro and inviting him to call you was the best thing you could have done :-)

[EndGame]

Thanks Loren and Nick,

Especially interested in the literature you recommended on this. I will most certainly be looking into it.

[IMcruiser]

Inside I would have been seething and would have already made the decision not to do business with them again.

On the exterior of course I would have been professional and told him in a firm and fair manner that I hold a high level of trust and respect for the people whom you conduct business. I would then have thanked him for his time.

[jukeboxhero]

There's not many "big names" that I would mind telling "face to face" to stick it...Unless of course I was dealing in the self defense niche...Then I worry a hair bit.

I don't care who you are in this business it's the internet. If some schmuck, no matter who he is. wants to get in a pissing match it could always get ugly...

It's the internet wild west...If you wanna slaughter anyones name you can...with a little SEO, video and adwords knowledge anyone can put a chink in your Armour...So, my opinion is too just be cool, then it's cool, and lifes way easier.

[Arthur Rich]

Personally I would have invited him out for a drink and if he acted tough mano to mano - I would have kicked his ass up and down the street. But thats just me and my Brooklyn upbringing.

[EndGame]

Jukeboxhero,

I like your analogy of this being the Internet wild west. I totally get where you are coming from with that statement and often find myself thinking much the same thing as well.

[JohnMcCabe]

A couple of thoughts...

Your company was likely not the only one the partner owed money to, and you were probably not the first to point this out to him. His anger may have been with his deadbeat partner, and you were the innocent target of that behavior.

As was pointed out, when restricted to words on a screen, it's easy to sound more harsh than intended. From time to time, I've been accused of being mean when my intent was imply to shoot straight and give the other person the respect of treating them as an equal. Like you found out, once you have the advantage of coupling your ears with your eyes, communication can be much smoother.

It's also much easier to be nasty when your venom is directed at a message on a computer rather than another human being.

On a lighter note...

A mechanical problem forced an airline to cancel a sold-out flight. When the announcement was made, people rushed to line up to find alternate flights.

One man, in a serious business suit, rushed to the front of the line and demanded another flight. The attendant asked him to join the line and she would help him as soon as it was his turn.

The man turned red in the face, glowered at the counter attendant, slapped his hand on the counter, and snarled, "Do you know who I am?"

The attendant looked at the man's red face, picked up the PA receiver and made an announcement - "Is there someone here traveling with a man in a nice suit who doesn't know who he is? He's lost and standing at our counter..."

Earlier that night...

The man was at a banquet, where he was to deliver the keynote speech. He signaled the waiter, and asked for more butter for his rolls.

"I'm sorry, sir, but our delivery was short today and I've been instructed to only give two pats of butter to each guest," he was told.

"Young man, do you know who I am? I'm the keynote speaker, they're paying me a lot of money to give this speech, and I want more butter and I want it now!" the man said.

The waiter asked, "Sir, do you know who I am?"

"No."

"I'm the man in charge of the butter, and you only get two pats..."



I think you handled it very about as well as it could have been handled...

[ExRat]

Hi End Game,

You got me confused.

The problem is on their application they said they were business partners with another marketer who has not paid our company affiliate commissions they have owed us for the best part of a year. We said despite this, we would give them a mail out if they promoted for us. They said would, and did not

So they've burnt you twice, but you're still willing to do business with them?

Dealing with these kinds of people really reminds me that there is such a thin line between genuine professionalism and business in Internet Marketing and opportunists and "hustlers". Dealing with these kinds of people really makes me question whether I should even be in this industry.

And because you let them burn you twice, it makes you feel like quitting?

Perhaps you do need my coaching

Just kidding (I don't do coaching). There are many lessons here for you - and you've already paid for them. Please learn them and don't give anyone the chance to dampen your ardour for business from here on in - that's precious and valuable and you must protect it.

[jasonl70]

After everything you mentioned happened prior to the phone call, I doubt I would have given the guy another chance.. The way I see it, you saw his true colors.

[tomcam]

EndGame, I suggest you forward the threatening email(s) to the big-name marketers he supposedly knows, and Cc: him on it.

[marciayudkin]

The email I recieved in response basically just asked me to get my boss to get in touch personally with them, and also told me (very colloquial English) to watch how I speak to them because I didn't know who they were etc, and I would not dare speak to them like that face to face. It was written like it was a line out of one of those gangster rap songs.

"No matter how thin you slice it, there are always two sides."

I don't agree with the point of the second quote. In business, it is NOT okay to threaten someone. It doesn't matter what you think the provocation was. This is not civilized behavior, and you must simply make it clear that you don't deal with people who treat you that way.

I've been threatened and cursed by other prominent marketing experts, and while I don't go around naming names, there is nothing they could do to entice me into a positive opinion of them again. Ever.

Marcia Yudkin