Crossing the line?

15 years ago

I think people are making too much of it...

He is pitching a continuity program and really isn't doing it in any different way than some of the big players in IM do it.

Some may not like the style of sites that he is using, but are they really any different than the billions of blogs that are out there made to look like legitimate reviews when in reality they are not?

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ExRat

15 years ago

Hi Johnathan,

I'm with you.

The actual ad is designed to look as if it's possibly from Google themselves, not least because of the wording -

'Google is hiring'

&

'Apply Now'

A typical surfer would assume that they can apply for a job at Google and earn $75 per hour. How many opportunity seekers would jump at that, with the perceived prospects for advancement?

I would have thought that if Google were aware of this, they would demand that it be taken down, as the actual offer itself could damage their reputation if it were allowed to continue - plus of course, if it IS allowed to continue, it's going to be used all over the place.

And this was definitely on adwords? Can you tell us how to find this live ad? Are you sure it's not on media buys, but with the small Google in the bottom right, it appears to be on adwords?

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Johnathan

15 years ago

Yes --

Go to this website (an online dating website) -- plentyoffish.com, and chances are you will see this guy's ad plastered all over the place.

Incidentally -- he also seems to be responsible for the 'judy's weight loss' and the 'kensworkout.com' sites as well. (Right now those are showing up on this site).

While not 'as' misleading, the main website again is full of crap (i.e., geotargeting, fake storyline, etc, etc).

One thing I just noticed (I hadn't checked closely the first time) -- I believe it was adwords -- however at the moment it says "googleads.g.doubleclick.net". I know at one time doubleclick used to be a separate advertising (online) agency -- I'm not sure if google purchased them -- but that is what is showing up for the redirection URL.

Johnathan

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Johnathan,

I'm with you.

The actual ad is designed to look as if it's possibly from Google themselves, not least because of the wording -

'Google is hiring'

&

'Apply Now'

A typical surfer would assume that they can apply for a job at Google and earn $75 per hour. How many opportunity seekers would jump at that, with the perceived prospects for advancement?

I would have thought that if Google were aware of this, they would demand that it be taken down, as the actual offer itself could damage their reputation if it were allowed to continue - plus of course, if it IS allowed to continue, it's going to be used all over the place.

And this was definitely on adwords? Can you tell us how to find this live ad? Are you sure it's not on media buys, but with the small Google in the bottom right, it appears to be on adwords?

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misterwrecker

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I think people are making too much of it...

He is pitching a continuity program and really isn't doing it in any different way than some of the big players in IM do it.

Some may not like the style of sites that he is using, but are they really any different than the billions of blogs that are out there made to look like legitimate reviews when in reality they are not?

The fact that these sites are all "fake" is only half the problem. You have to take into account that once these guys get your credit card they won't stop billing you until you cancel your credit card because they don't care if you want to stop business with them.

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Johnathan

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I think people are making too much of it...

He is pitching a continuity program and really isn't doing it in any different way than some of the big players in IM do it.

Some may not like the style of sites that he is using, but are they really any different than the billions of blogs that are out there made to look like legitimate reviews when in reality they are not?

Hi,

Jeremy, yes, there are probably many fake review sites that are not this guys (although this guy seems to have 'cornered' the market on this style so to speak).

The real issue is not that it is fake (although that is a major issue) -- the real issue is that these sites are so carefully crafted, using every "trick" in the book so to speak, and the "reach" (probably literally millions of people) -- and the fact that it is tricking and deceiving people on such a grand scale, and furthermore probably "taking" money through deception from those who can't afford it -- that is one of the main issues. And he has a flagrant disregard for anyone, in fact flaunting the deception by even using google's trademarked logo to "make" people think that his program is endorsed by google... It's kind of like in the movie lethal weapon II (I think it was) -- where there is some diplomat running an illegal (drug?) scheme -- and the police officers try to stop him -- but he is like "Ah ah ah, I have 'diplomatic immunity!'". This guy is essentially doing the same.

Deceiving people on a grand scale, making it difficult to get off his continuity program, and pretty much every pyschological trick in the book to decieved. (Even look at the "headline" -- news from "trusted" sources). He even has "fake ads" on his "fake website" - so that people -- who are usually 'immune' to ads -- will automatically assume that the story is "real" because it has ads (i.e., a "balance" of "newsworthy" content supported by "advertising").

That is the main issue, and at least for the time being, this guy seems to be getting away with it.

If he had a good product/service, or at least was honest/upfront about what he was doing, then that would be one thing. But it is nothing but deception to try and psychologically force someone to open their wallet and enter their credit card number. And, most likely for people who can't "afford" to waste money like that.

Johnathan

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Robyn8243

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I think people are making too much of it...

He is pitching a continuity program and really isn't doing it in any different way than some of the big players in IM do it.

Some may not like the style of sites that he is using, but are they really any different than the billions of blogs that are out there made to look like legitimate reviews when in reality they are not?

There are several differences:

1) He is pretending that this is part of a news story, and my guess is that if there is a disclaimer anywhere at all, it is intentionally placed in a way that 99.99% will never see it.
You could certainly compare this to the typical "Scam Review Sites" which are also total BS without a grain of truth...but I don't think you can categorize all review sites in that manner. I don't think most review sites include large numbers of fake testimonials nor do I think the majority are recommending total crap...that the promoter knows are total crap...but that could just be me.

2) Big difference between this and what most people here would consider acceptable
continuity program is that most of these Google programs (another level of deceit as we all know here that this has nothing to do with Google) make it as difficult as possible to cancel, continue billing even after cancellation, and according to many who
have been burned, don't even deliver (the crap) they are selling until after the trial period is over.

There is no intent to deliver value from the outset. The intent is to get peoples cc info, and bill them for as long as they can get away with. When enough complaints start to hurt business, they start new corporation with new name and start the games all over.

Why we as affiliate marketers should be concerned:

These types of blatant scams have already resulted in Government involvement,
with FTC starting to crack down and investigate people making what they classify as unsubstantiated claims.

The more pervasive these kinds of sites are, and the more consumers are
ripped off, the more likely the government will become more involved and
start passing specific legislation that will destroy entire income streams.

Any time there is consumer protection legislation, it tends to work in a way that legitimate marketers or service providers who now have to comply with usually ridiculous regulations are screwed, while the scammers who could care less about the law anyway get to flourish with even less competition.

The government could easily legislate that all recurring subscriptions, or more likely all but those that fit certain guidelines to appease influential lobbying groups. are no longer allowed, or worse.

Robyn

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Jeremy,

I think people are making too much of it...

Come on, man. Even the CPAers laugh about this offer, in the "up your sleeve" kind of laugh that says, "Yeah. We're getting away with something really shady, and making a bundle on it."

He is pitching a continuity program and really isn't doing it in any different way than some of the big players in IM do it.

Some may not like the style of sites that he is using, but are they really any different than the billions of blogs that are out there made to look like legitimate reviews when in reality they are not?

"Jonny's doing it, so why can't I?"

That's not a defense, Jeremy.

Paul

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ExRat

15 years ago

Hi Robyn,

I don't think most review sites include large numbers of fake testimonials

I would have thought that by using the IP based location changing script to change the locations of the 'commenters' depending on where the viewer is located, that this would be enough to get these sites ripped down due to 'fake testimonials'? - Or at the very least enough for google to kick them out of their adwords program.

The other concern about these is that they are so prolific across the web, they are like a huge come-on to any potential scammers and they demonstrate just how much one can get away with.

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Robyn8243

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Robyn,

I would have thought that by using the IP based location changing script to change the locations of the 'commenters' depending on where the viewer is located, that this would be enough to get these sites ripped down due to 'fake testimonials'? - Or at the very least enough for google to kick them out of their adwords program.

The other concern about these is that they are so prolific across the web, they are like a huge come-on to any potential scammers and they demonstrate just how much one can get away with.

The government is probably clueless about how these scripts work. And these sites are so prolific and can easily be changed so that it is probably impossible to keep up with it.

As marketers, we see these types of things, and we know that it is probably the result of some script. I remember the first time a site popped up with a really sincere sounding story from someone in my town LOL. My first reaction was that this must be some type of marketing script. I immediately called a friend across the country to check out the site, and of course this person was now from her hometown. But to people not involved in IM, they don't know this kind of thing exists.

Getting back to why the government does not crack down on obvious scams...that is my concern...when issues like this arise, the government does not have the resources to investigate and stop the major offenders, so instead they OVER Regulate and make whole categories of activities unlawful.

Free Speech may be in our Bill of Rights, but it has been unlawful to advertise cigarettes on tv among other things for many years. And the cigarette industry has a powerful lobbying group.

How many people here think that there would be some huge public outcry if the government proposed legislation that severely restricted the way affiliates or even
major companies advertised online?

In just about every instance of regulation: the government over-regulates so that legitimate people are screwed and under-regulates so that the people they are really after continue to operate unaffected by the legislation.

Robyn

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Daniel Deegan 15 years ago

Damn..I'm surprised to see Jeremy has gotten that caught up in the CPA scene. Now I'm not one to knock the hustle, but trying to legitimize it or say it's just good marketing is lying to your self dude...

It's dirty and it's shadey, but if your cash focused and want to play that part of the CPA game, then man up and take it for what is. Even most zip submits are shadey because we all know what happens when you actually put your email in that little box...

Again, I'm not knocking those doing it, but I know if I were pushing offers like that I would'nt try and sugar coat what I'm doing...it is what is...

Shoveling shit in a tuxedo is still shoveling shit...
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- Jeremy Kelsall 15 years ago
  
  Maybe some misunderstood my point...
  
  I said people were making too much of it and I think they are. How many threads have we had about flogs on here in the past 2 months and each and every one of the threads says the same thing over and over again.
  
  Yes, we all know it is fake, how many times does it have to be talked about though. In addition, it might be deceptive advertising, but it is approved by many CPA networks and their advertisers. And no, I don't have any flogs so, that isn't the reason I'm taking the stance that I am on this.
  
  The pages are very deceptive etc, but they usually do have some sort of disclaimer at the bottom which is more than I can say for some of the review sites that I see in the IM niche and other niches pitching clickbank products.
  
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AffiliateMax

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ExRat

I would have thought that by using the IP based location changing script to change the locations of the 'commenters' depending on where the viewer is located, that this would be enough to get these sites ripped down due to 'fake testimonials'? - Or at the very least enough for google to kick them out of their adwords program.

Google are suspending/banning some adwords accounts - not because of the use of the ip location script, but because of the use (misuse) of their name, or as they put it "ads that promote a misrepresented affiliation with Google".

Google Begins Banning Google AdWords Scams

Clearly though some advertisers would appear to have slipped through the net if the ad in the OP is still running on adwords.

-

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genietoast 15 years ago

These type of sites take your credit card money and send no product.

He's a liar. Burn him.
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TLCarroll

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Jeremy,Come on, man. Even the CPAers laugh about this offer, in the "up your sleeve" kind of laugh that says, "Yeah. We're getting away with something really shady, and making a bundle on it."

Whenever I see threads like these, I always feel as if they should really read 'Dammit, I wish I had thought of it first!'

Sorry, had enough sour grapes mentality lately.

Your mileage, of course, may vary.

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Jeremy Kelsall

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Jeremy,Come on, man. Even the CPAers laugh about this offer, in the "up your sleeve" kind of laugh that says, "Yeah. We're getting away with something really shady, and making a bundle on it."

Chances are good you are going to see more and more flogs. As I've mentioned the networks approve them and in some cases even ask you to use them.

We all know they are fake here so, how useful can it be to have the same conversation every week where everyone says the same thing?

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

"Jonny's doing it, so why can't I?"

That's not a defense, Jeremy.

Paul

I wasn't trying to "defend" them. I was just trying to draw some parallels to the way even people on this board do business with their fake review sites, fake review of products, and generally being able to do whatever is necessary to make a sale.

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sbucciarel

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

Chances are good you are going to see more and more flogs. As I've mentioned the networks approve them and in some cases even ask you to use them.
We all know they are fake here so, how useful can it be to have the same conversation every week where everyone says the same thing?

It doesn't matter whether or not the networks approve them. The FTC does not approve of them and in the long run, the affiliates and the networks will be held responsible for deceptive marketing, particularly in the case of fake testimonials and billing people's credit cards without their knowledge in continuity programs. The news stories of the FTC and various state prosecutors is all over the place, so anyone who likes to play with fire ... go ahead.

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Jeremy Kelsall

15 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

It doesn't matter whether or not the networks approve them. The FTC does not approve of them and in the long run, the affiliates and the networks will be held responsible for deceptive marketing, particularly in the case of fake testimonials and billing people's credit cards without their knowledge in continuity programs. The news stories of the FTC and various state prosecutors is all over the place, so anyone who likes to play with fire ... go ahead.

Fair enough, but it is continuity and it is disclosed somewhere along the line. Whether or not people actually read what they are signing up for isn't really an issue that any marketer should be held responsible for.

Yes, the FTC is cracking down, but most of these "flogs" cover themselves with a fairly substantial disclaimer of both the testimonials and earnings, much in the same way that any product launched in the MMO niche.

The only thing that is in many cases different with flogs and regular sales pages is the "look" of the page.

Again, I don't personally have any "flogs" , but I do take long hard looks at them and study what they are doing to get the conversions that they are getting and try to adapt that to a level that I am comfortable with.

If the "flogs" were not delivered on a site that looked like a news paper they would be no different than 90% of the sales pages that we all see every day.

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Paul Myers

15 years ago

Jeremy,

Yes, the FTC is cracking down, but most of these "flogs" cover themselves with a fairly substantial disclaimer of both the testimonials and earnings, much in the same way that any product launched in the MMO niche.

I can't say what "most" of them do, but the one in the OP breaks enough of the rules to get the owner into some serious hot water if s/he were investigated.

The ad it links to does also, if it's connected with a continuity program. Whatever you may think, the FTC rules do not require that a person read every word of an ad or the associated T&Cs. They specifically recognize that most people won't do that, and so use the "reasonable person" standard for measuring clarity and honesty of an ad for legal purposes.

Marketers also know that most people don't read everything in an ad. Copywriters are taught that as part of their most basic lessons, and some of them rely on that to "get over" on their customers.

Don't rely on the "it's not our fault they don't read" argument as a safeguard. And be careful with your disclaimers. Putting them in small, light-colored text at the bottom of a web page is like screaming, "Hey! Scam here!" to anyone with training in how they're supposed to be used.

No, I am not a lawyer. I recommend talking with one before taking anyone's advice on issues like this from a discussion forum...

Paul

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Martin Luxton

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

Fair enough, but it is continuity and it is disclosed somewhere along the line. Whether or not people actually read what they are signing up for isn't really an issue that any marketer should be held responsible for.

Yes, the FTC is cracking down, but most of these "flogs" cover themselves with a fairly substantial disclaimer of both the testimonials and earnings, much in the same way that any product launched in the MMO niche.

The only thing that is in many cases different with flogs and regular sales pages is the "look" of the page.

Again, I don't personally have any "flogs" , but I do take long hard looks at them and study what they are doing to get the conversions that they are getting and try to adapt that to a level that I am comfortable with.

If the "flogs" were not delivered on a site that looked like a news paper they would be no different than 90% of the sales pages that we all see every day.

Jeremy,

Are you saying that a disclaimer magically turns something illegal into something legit?

"Click here to buy now!"

Disclaimer: If you buy from this website I'm going to hack your credit card and take all your money. By going ahead with this transaction you are giving me permission to steal all your money and you agree not to report me to the FTC, police, FBI or any other law enforcement agencies. If you do report me I'm going sue your ass off and harass you until you die.

If a CPA network approves these sites obviously they are not to be trusted either and you shouldn't be surprised if they also end up in trouble with the FTC. If you knowingly condone a criminal act you are liable, too.

Just because one of the guys doing this is a lawyer means squat. Some of the great criminal minds were lawyers.

(usual legal disclaimer, etc)

Martin

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Jeremy Kelsall

15 years ago

Martin,

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

Jeremy,

Are you saying that a disclaimer magically turns something illegal into something legit?

"Click here to buy now!"

Disclaimer: If you buy from this website I'm going to hack your credit card and take all your money. By going ahead with this transaction you are giving me permission to steal all your money and you agree not to report me to the FTC, police, FBI or any other law enforcement agencies. If you do report me I'm going sue your ass off and harass you until you die.

If a CPA network approves these sites obviously they are not to be trusted either and you shouldn't be surprised if they also end up in trouble with the FTC. If you knowingly condone a criminal act you are liable, too.

Just because one of the guys doing this is a lawyer means squat. Some of the great criminal minds were lawyers.

(usual legal disclaimer, etc)

Martin

I wasn't trying to imply that it was "OK" at all. I was simply drawing some parallels to some of the other things that we see every day in the MMO niche.

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sbucciarel

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I think people are making too much of it...

He is pitching a continuity program and really isn't doing it in any different way than some of the big players in IM do it.

Some may not like the style of sites that he is using, but are they really any different than the billions of blogs that are out there made to look like legitimate reviews when in reality they are not?

The old "everybody's doing it so it's ok" response doesn't cut it anymore. The FTC is cracking down on fake reviews and continuity programs that you don't realize you are entering with nearly impossible refund and cancellation policies.

Since many marketers don't have the self-restraint to market honestly, FTC will be there to crack the whip, with some of the largest players facing stiff penalties and possibly even jail.

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Floyd Fisher

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall

I think people are making too much of it...

He is pitching a continuity program and really isn't doing it in any different way than some of the big players in IM do it.

Some may not like the style of sites that he is using, but are they really any different than the billions of blogs that are out there made to look like legitimate reviews when in reality they are not?

You need to check out what the FTC is doing. Those kind of fake reviews are getting the hammer.

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Jeremy Kelsall 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher

You need to check out what the FTC is doing. Those kind of fake reviews are getting the hammer.

I'm aware of what the FTC is doing and it doesn't affect me in the least
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- Floyd Fisher 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall
  
  I'm aware of what the FTC is doing and it doesn't affect me in the least
  
  Must be because you don't do business like that, do you?
  
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  Jeremy Kelsall 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher
  
  Must be because you don't do business like that, do you?
  
  Nope, no flogs for me
  
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Tom Brite

15 years ago

Ive seen alot of these on movie streaming sites (not that i use those sites of course

).

They made me click just to see what sort of marketing tactic they were using and it is a hell of alot better than most of ours i must say!

Plus for the scale this is at now it must be working extremely well!

Tom Brite

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Johnathan

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Brite

Ive seen alot of these on movie streaming sites (not that i use those sites of course

).

They made me click just to see what sort of marketing tactic they were using and it is a hell of alot better than most of ours i must say!

Plus for the scale this is at now it must be working extremely well!

Tom Brite

Because of the broad scope of this guys ads (and it really appears to be just 1 guy, with a lawyer buddy doing some 500+ sites (probably close to 1,000 now since I last checked)). Educated guess is that this guy is now pulling in $1 million/day, so I suppose he figures he has more than enough money to defend himself with lawyers (he already has one case pending against him from Texas, not sure whether that has been resolved or what is going on with that).

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AffiliateMax

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnathan

Because of the broad scope of this guys ads (and it really appears to be just 1 guy, with a lawyer buddy doing some 500+ sites (probably close to 1,000 now since I last checked)). Educated guess is that this guy is now pulling in $1 million/day, so I suppose he figures he has more than enough money to defend himself with lawyers (he already has one case pending against him from Texas, not sure whether that has been resolved or what is going on with that).

If you are referring to the guy from Utah who has a case pending from the Texas AG (since April) and from the FTC (since June) then as far as I know he is the advertiser with the offer and is not the creator of the flogs. The flogs/fake news sites are all created by (many) cpa affiliates. There may only be a handful of them doing the media buys and really big numbers and the original template may have been created by one person, but there are plenty of copycats -that's the reason why there are hundreds of flogs.

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Johnathan

15 years ago

By the way, it's really strange -- I don't know what this guys obsession is with people being "account reps" (or more specifically "boring" account reps"). Pretty much *every* fake website he has put up he has used that as the "job" that that person used to have. You'd think since he was doing some 500+ websites, that he'd at least try different job titles

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ExRat

15 years ago

Hi Johnathan,

Interesting.

I'm pretty sure plentyoffish is in the 'preferred' adsense program, where they have certain benefits including being able to make adjustments to the ads that others can't.

I noticed by looking at the source that your p.o.f. profile information is actually extracted and given to adsense in order to make it even more contextually relevant.

From P.O.F. T.O.S. -

we may use attributes (including but not limited to age and gender) that you provide in your public profile to display relevant ads to you. Plentyoffish is not responsible for the privacy practices of these third-party companies or any other external websites linked to this site

Plus

(a) we cannot ensure the security or privacy of information you provide through the Internet and your email messages, and you release us from any and all liability in connection with the use of such information by other parties;

I also found this article while doing some searching, which relates to the same advert used for twitter -

Misleading Ad: Twitter is Hiring | WebProNews

Very strange.

Edit - Jeez. What's with the blue text???!

Edit2 -

using google's trademarked logo to "make" people think that his program is endorsed by google

No, it's more than that. By using 'google is hiring' & 'apply now' he's getting people to click through thinking that it's google themselves who are placing the advert, and that they will be seeing a job vacancy at google that pays £46 per hour (that's the version I see in the UK.)

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Johnathan

15 years ago

Hmm, interesting webpronews article...

I'm not sure of the reach the have now (I know at one time they were very good, about 10 years ago). I'm thinking perhaps another few articles should be written talking about these fake websites just to make people aware. The sad sad thing is that this 'one' guy is (potentially) spoiling it for a number of other 'good' people. When people find out this guy's site is fake -- and especially if they get duped into buying from him -- unfortunately that will make them think twice about purchasing elsewhere (because they used all their standard criteria in determining whether this was 'legit' or not, only to make a foolish decision to buy into it).

Good point re: the google ads -- yes, by endorsed my meaning was that it appears it is google 'directly' either supporting this program, or that it is their own program that they are offering.

Johnathan

Originally Posted by ExRat

Hi Johnathan,

Interesting.

I'm pretty sure plentyoffish is in the 'preferred' adsense program, where they have certain benefits including being able to make adjustments to the ads that others can't.

I noticed by looking at the source that your p.o.f. profile information is actually extracted and given to adsense in order to make it even more contextually relevant.

I also found this article while doing some searching, which relates to the same advert used for twitter -

Misleading Ad: Twitter is Hiring | WebProNews

Very strange.

Edit - Jeez. What's with the blue text???!

Edit2 - No, it's more than that. By using 'google is hiring' & 'apply now' he's getting people to click through thinking that it's google themselves who are placing the advert, and that they will be seeing a job vacancy at google that pays £46 per hour (that's the version I see in the UK.)

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funky_budha

15 years ago

I wonder where he gets the photos that he uses.?

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Johnathan 15 years ago

Originally Posted by funky_budha

I wonder where he gets the photos that he uses.?

I believe he uses stock photographs.
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bay37

15 years ago

It's not just one guy using those templates. There are hundreds of people using them. You are a complete i**** if you think there is just one person using the fake news and similar types of landers.

I know at least 6 people who use them/have tested them.

Gotta give those guys/girls credit for being creative and putting their twist on this technique.

Bad, bad marketers. Some of them are making a boatload of money selling those business kits. It's horrible, yes. It's also been discussed many, many times here.

Personally, I don't care.

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Johnathan

15 years ago

Originally Posted by bay37

It's not just one guy using those templates. There are hundreds of people using them. You are a complete i**** if you think there is just one person using the fake news and similar types of landers.

I know at least 6 people who use them/have tested them.

Gotta give those guys/girls credit for being creative and putting their twist on this technique.

Bad, bad marketers. Some of them are making a boatload of money selling those business kits. It's horrible, yes. It's also been discussed many, many times here.

Personally, I don't care.

Actually, you are mistaken. While there may be people you know of using that 'style' template -- this particular *individual* and his buddy (two guys, not a huge group) are plastering the internet in pretty much every major advertising network, pushing either the "google cash kit" or "**** berry" formula, etc, etc.

And there is a huge difference between a 'conduit' site that has a users personal opinion, with legitimate testimonials, and 'real' information, as opposed to the level of deception this particular individual employs.

Unless you believe the 100 or so pictures he have are all of people that had a "boring job as an account rep", and that they all happened to take a picture of the exact same google cheque for the exact same amount, and that they can simultaneously live in thousands of different cities at the same time, then this is wrong.

Yes -- this particular ad style totally disarms the reader into believing it is real. But the guy that did this is 'lying'. A 100% lie.

A conduit site in which you post 'real' reviews from real users, or you offer a real opinion on on a product or service is entirely different from a site in which your intent is to deceive.

Anyways, the "hundreds of sites" you see on the internet are by 'one' guy, who is very clever at hiding his tracks.

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Ldimilo

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnathan

And there is a huge difference between a 'conduit' site that has a users personal opinion, with legitimate testimonials, and 'real' information, as opposed to the level of deception this particular individual employs.

Actually, most of the conduit sites that I see are actually extrapolated and NON-Verified testimonials, especially in the IM product category. In fact, my own testimonial has been pulled from one of my sites as a "verification" (without my approval) to justify a spend.

If you look hard enough, you will probably be able to find some positive things for literally anything.

Once again, I am not justifying this nor do I use FLOGS in my own marketing tactics but the sales copy, deceptive or not, is very good and creative. You could just as easily use this type of copy for things that are on the up and up and probably get similar results.

Originally Posted by Johnathan

Unless you believe the 100 or so pictures he have are all of people that had a "boring job as an account rep", and that they all happened to take a picture of the exact same google cheque for the exact same amount, and that they can simultaneously live in thousands of different cities at the same time, then this is wrong.

Sounds really no different than typical headlines I read like "16 year old Ugly Duckling learns one secret that elevates himself from dumb struck loser to Lady Killer" OR any kind of ad copy you typically find in MMO Clickbank marketplace.

If you sell lady's underwear online, you would probably get more sales if you were a woman (or people might think you are a creepy weird dude)...

If you are selling gout products, then you are probably going to make statements that reflect what the target psychographics and demographics of your target audience are going to find relative....

This guy apparently decided that the most boring job that people could relate to was an account rep....

Let's face it, part of marketing is making it relative to whomever is reading it. Deceptive?...yeah...but much, much more commonplace that most would imagine...

This guy didn't invent deceptive ad copy. Nor is the stuff he is doing unique by any stretch of the imagination.

His ad copy for his adwords campaign is crossing the line though...

Originally Posted by Johnathan

A conduit site in which you post 'real' reviews from real users, or you offer a real opinion on on a product or service is entirely different from a site in which your intent is to deceive.

True...if that was really the case. I would imagine that most people who build conduit sites haven't actually purchased the product or products themselves and are basically relying on those that either have purchased it and are commenting on someone else's site (which means that they are basically trying to profit from their positive comments or dismiss a less favorable product with a slight) OR worse, are pulling their positive reviews from others marketing the same products as affiliates themselves.

And while your intent is not necessarily to deceive, your intent IS to make money even when you yourself probably don't have any knowledge of how well the product works yourself.

Just rocking the boat here and looking at it from other angles.....

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Ldimilo

15 years ago

I actually wrote about this particular type of ad and from a marketing perspective, shady or not shady, it is in fact brilliant because is disarms the reader from actually seeing it as an ad.

It is kind of like those 2-3 pages of information you find in a magazine..you know the ones with the "this is a paid advertisement" placed in the lower right hand corner in small print. You start reading it, thinking that it is actually just an article that the magazine wrote when it is actually a viagra ad (or whatever).

The ad copy of the FLOG isn't really the issue though, IMO. It is the google adwords ad (or whatever contextual network they are using) that is the problem. I think that making you think that you may actually be working for a company crosses the line.

The adwords ad I saw was in context to Michael Jackson and went something like this:

"Michael Jackson's Fortune"

19 year old Michael Jackson Fan Reveals Easy Way to Make $ Online"

The product that this person is pushing is the Google Kit (I believe) and I would imagine that he is nothing more than an affiliate......

To me, I see no difference from a conduit style website in which you are telling someone your "opinion" on the best product when all the while you are actually going to profit from whatever they choose.

I don't see many disclaimers stating that they are going to make a profit regardless of what product they choose (if they choose). The delivery is just different because it is styled in the form of a newspaper.

I imagine that the affiliate for such a site could kill the chances of litigation just by placing a small link at the bottom of the page stating that this is an advertisement. They do it in the offline world, why wouldn't it work online?

Just my opinion though, albeit an unpopular one....and no, I don't have any FLOGS

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Ldimilo

15 years ago

I do get where you are coming from though Jonathon...the google adwords campaign is very deceptive...

I just don't necessarily see anything wrong with the FLOG itself, outside of the ad that is driving traffic to the site.

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Paul Myers 15 years ago

Jeremy,

We all know they are fake here so, how useful can it be to have the same conversation every week where everyone says the same thing?

Ah. I misunderstood.

I think this one is useful, in that it points to a specific product that's very commonly promoted in other ways as well. Yes, it gets annoying seeing the same threads over and over, but this one does have something new to it. Relatively speaking.

Paul
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AffiliateMax

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Ldimilo

I do get where you are coming from though Jonathon...the google adwords campaign is very deceptive...

I just don't necessarily see anything wrong with the FLOG itself, outside of the ad that is driving traffic to the site.

The flog is just as deceptive as the image ad! It is designed to look like something it is not (a news site) and everything in the story is false - not just the publication but the story, the fake comments /testimonials, even the adwords lookalike ads are fake. You may not "see anything wrong with the FLOG itself" but I think that anyone with an interest in ethically and legally marketing online would and I am certain that the FTC would!

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InternetMarketingIQ

15 years ago

It's buyer beware. Testimonials on non branded sites are almost useless.

But the bottom line is really that if these people were not making money they would stop doing it... same with Spam. At some point someone on the other end has got to bite and they just keep biting. Is it ethical... does it even matter really? The Internet is a cesspool of deception and there are plenty of con artists ready to pounce.

Now think about this for a moment. Google is against paid links and wants to eliminate webmasters who are working hard to promote themselves and choose to buy paid links. How is that unethical? It's not. After all Google makes all their money from paid links.

The point being ethics are determined by the people in power. I could cite several examples of sites that Google is completely aware of and conveniently lets them violiate Adsense TOS because it makes them money.

So if your example is a big Do as I say not as I do company such as Google... what do you do?

Google isn't exactly a role model themselves!

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Virtual Banker

15 years ago

you have no idea how much people make off flogging. Take the top 10 biggest 'Gu-rus' you can think of that have buzz going around their name here at the warrior forum
and I can guantee you that the top ten 'floggers' in the industry make 5x-10x as much as each of them. yeah like that much.

and sure, adwords gets banned, ftc cracks down, whatever.
the successful adjust and keep succeeding....

now what would happen if some of you got off your 'moral' high horse and actually payed attention to learn 'why' the flogs convert so well

then extract that element and adjust it for your stomach and tastes and profit.

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TrueDepth

15 years ago

I think such blatant misrepresentation and lying should be prosecuted to the same extent as email spammers. It gives us all a bad name. I wish I could say, that I can't believe anyone would fall for that but I know better...

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jmonda

15 years ago

I actually fell for this very thing it is the google profits junk and I reported them to the BBB as well as to the AG. You think you are buying a 3 dollar CD and then they charge you 49 dollars two weeks later and then turn around and charge you 99. I lost 150 before I even knew what happened. I guess I am a sucker and have no idea where to start that is what led me here. I need to find something that will work before I lose more money.

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