Why you will always find it difficult to outsource your articles?

Thank you for the interesting perspective you have in ghostwriting. Outsourcing has been an industry that has flourished and will continue to do so. You are correct when you say that those providers that figure out they can make money themselves will move on from writing. Why would they continue to make others rich off of their own efforts when they could be doing it themselves?

I offer services at a much higher price and I don't get many requests for work because there are many that want to pay just 1 to 5 dollars for an article. I am sticking to my guns and believe in my ability to deliver quality work. My time is valuable and I refuse to work for less. Quality always wins in the end. All my articles are original works.

I must also say that I have seen the light as well. If the people don't want to pay for quality articles, then I will just take my articles and use them for myself. While I am sitting and waiting for orders, I will just write for myself. I will still profit.

I'm confused...

I never have a problem outsourcing my articles.

Hi Pratibha,

I beg to differ regarding asking for a sample. How does the purchaser know if the style of writing is right for them?

I can write in a humourous, businesslike or conversational way.

I failed to ask for a sample when I made my first venture into the IM world

When I first started in IM, I put up a website and to save time, outsourced some article writing.

In my ignorance I assumed the articles would be readable with correct spelling and grammar.

Boy, was I wrong.

I had not asked for a sample and I didn't go for the cheapest offer either!

However, I paid up as promised, binned the articles and started writing my own.

For me, this was the natural thing to do because, in the real world, I wrote for several newspapers for a number of years.

Now I know that whatever has my name on is good stuff and of a high standard.

My advice to anyone who can write, is to try your hand at it yourself before outsourcing.

(I know - I'm shooting myself in the foot here!)

If you do decide to outsource because of time constraints or you just hate writing, buy one sample article or ask for a sample of an article that the writer has already done - only after you have seen the end result can you judge if the content is up to your required standard.

Regards

Karen

P.S. I don't think anyone finds it difficult to outsource, there are plenty of article writers offering their services. It's just not that easy to find 'good' writers that don't cost the earth!

Karen I would totally disagree with you regarding writing samples.

I will not normally write samples for anybody. I have samples available which is all they see.

I have seen too many IMers asking for samples who have said this. "Post on elance, and ask the writers to give you a sample, then when you have all the free ones you need close the project and never hire anyone." That I believe is what the OP was referring to.

If someone really wants a sample, then I would consider writing it, but never give it to them in txt format. I wouldn't pass on copyright to them, but add it to my samples.

The advice about taking articles from EZA and other directories is being given now as a standard, and that I believe it bad advice. Using an article directory for your research material isn't the place to look, and then just rewriting it so it looks different isn't professional. I know too many people who are telling people to do this, I tell them to do other things.

As far as whether a person will remain a ghostwriter, I disagree, because there are many of us who earn far more outside the IM niche.

When you consider there are people who pay betwen $1 and $5 a word for an article you will see there are always places to write for higher rates.

I don't think that there's any inherent problem with wanting to see samples - a portfolio comes in quite handy for cases like this. However, I don't think that webmasters should expect each ghostwriter they interview to write a free original article on their specific niche as a a sample, and I'm seeing this more and more. I personally don't apply to jobs any longer that ask for a new original article - I've built up enough of a portfolio online that I can provide more than enough material for a potential client to evaluate my writing style.

Thanks for the info about the payment per month $300 per month is considered respectable there and that's really cheap to hire a full time writer then for the Western world.

For ghostwriters I say forget about free sample articles. Any employer with money and who is willing to pay for good work will pay for samples, only employers with little money or are very tight (stingy) with their pay regardless of quality is not someone you want to be working for anyway.

if you are a good writer why worry about other people stealing your jobs? As an employer of writers I found it so hard to find reliable quality people, if your consistent and your work is good that's all you need to do to be better than 70% (perhaps more) of the freelance writers out there. Consistent good work is rewarded with a reasonable employer

I can understand your frustration, but there are always two sides to the story.

I understand asking for sample articles, even to the point of asking for a specific sample. I have hire writers who's writing did not remotely resemble the sample I had been given. I have also paid top dollar to an author, only to find that they could not follow instructions, meet deadlines, and were extremely difficult to work with.

I understand the frustration of some people expecting great articles for just a few dollars each. I think they will eventually understand that you get what you pay for.....to a point, anyway. Face it, some writer think far more highly of their own abilities (and charge more) than they should. I have found some of the best writers to have more reasonable prices, and believe me, they will get repeat business. If you are a good writer with reasonable prices, there should be no concern about other writers stealing your jobs.

I have two girls that I use all the time for my outsourced content. University level writing..

Can't be bad. Sure, I pay them a good English profit, no third world rates here.... but it's more than worth it.

Treat your writers like GOLD people..

Peace

Jay

Guess it's the good businessmen and women who keep the *actual* ghost writers alive

Fact is, if you're selling shitty articles for $1 then you deserve the company of some wannabe entrepreneur. By the same token, if you are some wannabe entrepreneur and are only willing to pay $1 for an article, you deserve the company of a shitty article writer.

I wouldn't even think about paying someone a $1 for an article, that's ridiculous. I expect quality, researched content, with optimum keyword density. You get what you pay for, and it's never been clearer than when you hire someone to write an article, or batch of articles.

My only problem has been turn-around time... but the quality of the articles that have been written for me has been excellent... so I just suck it up and deal with it... for now.

Hi Pratibha

I'm just putting the finishing touches to a report that is going to help writers (and ghostwriters) to earn more money from their writing. (I'm just trying to figure out a name for the report right now.)

One of the things I've found is that many writers (especially "500 word article" writers) do not know how to distinguish themselves from other writers in the first place, and then they don't know how to SELL THEMSELVES.

Your article makes clear that there will always be $1 article writers around, for as long as people in India and other countries think that is a good wage (which I guess it is, relative to others in their country).

But it's a shame, because if the $1 article writer actually bothered to develop specific SKILLS (beyond the basic writing skills such as grammar and spelling) that could help their clients get more of what they really wanted (i.e. money, traffic, sales, subscribers), they could easily be charging $10 or more per article and still have more than enough work!

What's also a shame is that many good writers here think that these $1 writers are actually competition. Well, if they were really good at what they did, they wouldn't be charging $1 an article... regardless of their cost of living.

After all, why charge $1, when $2 for the same amount of work will double their income? And why charge $2, when $4 will double it again?

The key for them is about securing and keeping clients. But if they're good, they will have clients regardless of whether they're charging $1, or $10 or $30... as long as they "sell the difference" to their clients, and demonstrate why their writing delivers value for money.

So the GOOD writer will quickly discover they can put their prices up and still have more than enough clients.

While the AVERAGE or POOR writer will always need to rely on keeping prices low.

That's why I won't be using $1 writers any time soon. Regardless of whether it's actually true or not, if they're pricing themselves at $1, it implies to me they do not feel they are good enough to charge $5 or $10... which means they probably aren't good enough.

OR... and this is just as likely... they are good, but just don't know how to sell themselves and their writing service... which is why I'm writing my report ... to help the good ones earn more and be able to sell themselves, so their clients are happy to use them at $2, $5, or $10 an article and beyond.

As many have already said there are good and bad GWs and WMs. it is very hard to find the good ones. IMHO when you find a good writer you should treat them well.

I have three writers I work with and loath the day when one leaves. Fisnding a GOOD writer can be very time consuming.

Thanks for opening an interesting discussion, Pratibha.

I used to do quite a lot of articles, ghostwriting and PLR; but haven't for
some time now. I was fortunate to work with some good Warriors who paid
decent prices for decent work (Mike included). And I never had to compete
on price.

But there are a lot of people out there only prepared to pay the bare minimum,
and there will always be others ready to answer that need. And in answering that
need, tactics such that you descibe have become so commonplace that there appears
to be a whole swathe of writers and 'marketers' who have no idea how to research
and write their own material. Or who do not understand that good quality work
takes longer than 30 mins to create.

The fact is that the Warrior forum must take some time to reflect on that too -
since the very ebooks, reports and software that promote 'cribbing', 'rehashing' and
virtual copyright theft continue to appear with dull regularity in the WSO forum.
Often by reputable names which seem to help make such tactics acceptable.
How many times do we see new software and ebooks promoted there which tell
us to search Ezine Articles as research and tell us "it's not copying because we are
going to change it..."?

The truth here is that no matter how many times a mistake is repeated, it never
ceases to be a mistake. And no matter how glossy those reports and rewriting
applications appear, they are still repeating that basic mistake: trash in, trash out
- or, just because you changed a few words, it doesn't mean you've created
something original (or good).

If a writer's sole aim, and test of ability, is to pass a copyscape test, then they
are writing only in the sparest of senses. Yet so often this is declared as the
test of uniqueness.

Phil

Pratibha,

Some of your points are good, some not. Simple as that. Most of what I was about to say has been said by Michelis. And he has mainly put things into perspective here. Many thanks, Big Boy.

But keep on the hard work... You shall be rewarded.

-Lakshay

Dr. Mani, I have no idea what the OP really expected, because he didn't make it clear at all.

What I don't understand is why there is a problem about getting or not getting repeat work?

We don't do a huge amount of repeat work, but that doesn't mean we get depressed because of it.

By nature some projects are always going to be one-offs.

We have also worked with some Indians who want to be writers, and it is possible to teach them, but, and this is a big but, their ego has to be removed from the package. We have travelled and worked in India, so have first hand experience, and you will find that many do what the OP did, tell us about his achievements. When starting out writing it doesn't matter what you did or didn't do in the past because you are starting on a level playing field with other writers.

I could say I worked for one of the top firm of accountants, KPMG but what is the relevance of that to me writing? None. It is totally irrelevant.

The problem is the same regardless of where a person lives, many have got into writing cheap articles, they know they can't earn enough putting in hours and hours of research, so they make it a basic article. Then they complain it is the buyers fault, which isn't the truth. The buyer might at times be at fault, but the reality is, if a person can't decide how to make a profit from their work, they need to take a fresh look at their business model.

Good points Bev, and on the opposite side of the coin our most lucrative contracts are those that come by way of referral AND by repeat work. Funny enough, one of my larger contracted clients wants nothing BUT U.K based writers.

It all comes down to giving the client what they want and want they expect. Undersell and overproduce, while under deadline

But what is the real problem there? If they get scammed, they should be using sites that offer them more protection. That is a simple solution....by itself, anyway. If the real problem is that they aren't winning bids or getting repeat business, you have to explore why that is. My guess is that, for whatever reason, their writing is not high enough quality. Is it being suggested that we accept poorer quality articles so that writers in India feel better about themselves?

That is just nonsense. The sites do not have a prejudice, but the buyer has the option to not use writers from anywhere they choose. It is sounding more and more like we are dealing with mediocre writers that can't win good bids and therefore resort to having to deal with bad webmasters. That is not our problem.

And there is part of the problem. You feel that your great research ability should outweigh the problems with your writing. It doesn't. I can do research, and am very good at it. What I can't do is write eloquently. That is why I hire a writer. If you can't write eloquently, then I can't use you. "Passable English" is not acceptable. I can write "passable English" myself. Ultimately, a good writer should be a good researcher AND a good writer. That is what the better webmasters are looking for. If you feel that it is OK to sit back and rely on research alone, then you will always lose out on bids from those who can do it better.

What is the solution to your/their problem? I don't know. I can only say that if the problem is a lack of good English writing skills, then something needs to be done to improve that skill. That is not our responsibility to figure out. If someone really wants to write articles for the English speaking market then they will need to do whatever it takes to improve their English writing skills. It's as simple as that.

I think writing is one of the hardest areas to please people with .. as people have different writing styles and expect their ghost writer to adapt to their style immediately!

Always best to get sample work

Hi Dr.Mani

"The Death Of $5 Article Writing". I think I will make that REQUIRED READING for readers of my new report on how to earning more from their writing, that was superb!

I'd like to put that report on my domain... just in case it disappears from yours ... is this OK? The permission was a bit vague, I can "share it with a friend", but can I do so from my own domain?

Either way, I say again... that should be REQUIRED READING both for every article marketer, and for anyone thinking of buying articles.

Actually, most ghostwriters WRITE because that's their strength.

When it comes to marketing, that's where they struggle. Internet marketing is not just about fueling content; it requires high involvement in various field to start with.

Most flounder, quit, and return back to ghostwritng solely.

Hi Mike, thank you for your latest post. It is most informative. I was all the time expecting something like this from you. The 5 points that you have posted were exactly the same that I had recieved from my first client. The floods etc are certianly not webmasters problems. I was just saying that Indian writer community NEVER takes in to account all these factors and thereby loose lot many customers.
My most heart felt sincere thanks to you. pratibha.

It occurs to me that a free sample that is not in or related to their niche can show them all they need to know -- your writing skills, grammar, etc.

If they're honestly looking for good writing for their articles, great. If they're just looking for freebies, well it won't be much use to them.

Jaye Marno

I was extremely lucky in regards to outsourcing my articles i found a really cool guy pretty much as soon as i started looking.

However we are all different take outsourcing of design work it was third time lucky for me to find someone that did a decent job and that i trusted.

kind regards


sam
X

Awesome! I really found some interesting things to learn from this thread. The main factor is that the outsourced person should be quite known or have references. It is really difficult where you can get quality intertwined with contents.

"The majority of ghostwriters can produce $5 a piece articles only"

And what do you base this factual statement on? I know of many content producers who make a lot of money online not writing for the $1/500 word article segment. There may be a gluttony of third world/overseas writers who will write for pennies on the dollar, but professional organizations (and their webmasters) who count their ledger balances in the millions rarely even cast a glance at that market space. There are many qualified writers in the U.K and U.S who have a client base built up around producing profressional quality content pieces fit for trade publications and journals.

I've held and serviced several contracts for online content GIANTS that have no problem being invoiced and paying thousands and thousands of dollars...monthly.

I think your perception is a skewed one, or, primarily focused only on INDIAN writers. If so, then i retract everything in my post and agree with you. Rare is it that I find an Indian writer who can create content for the U.S/U.K market in a stylized grammatical format that doesn't require a ton of rework. And I take writing samples all the time from prospective writers who want to join AA.

The best advice that I can give any writer who wants to write in American/British stylized formats is to read the classics. And by that I mean (for American) Hemingway, London, Steinbeck, etc and read for analysis. Paragraph construction, word usage, flow. Then move on to the contemporary authors of today as well. Do the same sort of analysis. That's my fast track to getting someone on pace with a certain of style of writing.

The other thing to watch out for, and I was instructed on this in law school, is that people generally write like they talk. Just be aware of it when you or your students, or your writers, create content. Whenever one of my copy editors brings to me a writer who is having content issues, I always sit that writer down after a session and say "great piece, now read it ALOUD to me". Sometimes the flow doesn't work, sometimes it does. But great writers always take the time to find out.

The only person who called you a dumb ghostwriter is yourself.

I have always said I have no problem with whatever rate a person choses to charge. Are McD's dumb because they don't run a 5 star restaurant. No they are cheap, plain and simple.

I have no idea where you get your facts and figures from but it isn't from the real world of ghostwriting.

I could give you at least 20 sites who have over 50 writers working for them. They pay their writers $1,000 for a 400 word article. Now think of that for a moment, they pay the writers $1,000 for a 400 word article so you have to guess what they charge the clients for those articles.

Dr Mani I remember the report the first time around

Pratibha,

I have been thinking about this over the course of this thread (honestly, it took us a while to get to the heart of the matter). I think your time would be better spent elsewhere. By that, I mean taking this topic somewhere where it would do more good. I think you could get more help in this area on a forum dedicated to writers and writing. They would be the best people to ask on how to build skills and improve in certain areas. As I said before, I can not train anyone to write. It is not my area of expertise. My advice is to take this problem to the experts....other writers. I'm sure there are many good forums for writers out there.

I think the problem with this thread is the absolutes that Pratibha has been giving, whereas he was talking only about the Indian community.

Pratibha, if you read your posts, you will see that you make absolute statements, whereas you are not making them in your mind. Some have been projecting into the future, but what do you think the biggest problem has been with your posts?

You have not communicated clearly what you were thinking. Now before you talk about how good, bad or indifferent your English is, I am talking about making a point and making it clearly.

I have lived and worked with people from Third World Countries, and I am used to taking what they say and getting the ideas of what they want to say, removing any bad English.

This hasn't been easy to do here, because of the absolutes you have been making.

You started by saying, "you were the best, because of the number of articles you have written." The reality is you might be one of the best voices in the Indian market, because this is the market you know about.

Do you see the difference, one is stating an absolute, that you were the best, and that didn't include just the Indian market but the ghostwriting community.

If a person wants to be a writer and make a decent income from it, communication is the biggest thing they need to learn and understand. If you can't get your point over then why would people hire you again.

You say you have written thousands of articles, but you also talk about being ripped off. Where do you get your work from?

If the rates are an issue, then that comes down to you and the way you price your business. Different people put different prices on their work, and the price you put will get different types of clients who are looking for different things.

If you want to help the Indian writers then can I suggest you learn how to communicate clearly what you intend to do, because you have so many thoughts which when put for the Indian writers, but you are not saying that until now.

You make the absolute comment about a ghostwriter won't remain a ghostwriter. Again, is this based on the Indian community or the whole world of ghostwriting?

Actually, it doesn't matter, because if you believe a person can't make good money as a ghostwriter, you have already decided and nobody will change your mind.

You talk about it as if there is no other options, but that isn't true. The problem as far as I can see, is your experience of ghostwriting doesn't exist. Now, before you say you are a ghostwriter, let me explain why I say that.

Your experience is only for writing articles, a ghostwriter does far more. Your limited knowledge of writing, is what stops you from making a decent income online.

Writing articles is always the low end of a writer's income.

Press Releases will always make you more money.

Writing report or ebooks are another way to make more money.

Writing reviews again will earn more money. Now reviews come in all shapes and sizes and we have written reviews on copy.

There are research projects which pay high rates.

PLR can make you a lot of money if done correctly.

You might be discouraged because you can't get repeat clients or nobody wants to pay more than $6 an article, but the question is have you asked people why this is, and more importantly learnt from the replies.

Before making these absolutes, you really should look deep into your subject and see if there is anything else you are missing or could be doing. You say you like to research, but you have failed to do much research in this niche, yet you want to teach others.

You can only teach what you already know, and yes an Indian teaching an Indian is a great business model, but your negative stance about ghostwriting will be passed to any students. You would be a better teacher if you learnt more about the niche and then passed on those lessons.

I have spoken to a lot of webmasters as you call them, but they are not necessarily the webmaster, who want to hire writers and pay decent rates for the work. These are people outside the IM niche, and one thing they do is look through the search engines for companies who offer writing. They disregard people who don't have their own site, (a site hosted by themselves and not on blogger or wordpress) and those whose rates are below a certain level, because they don't want cheap writers. Now, if you read what I have written, and take the information to heart you will find lots of tips in there.

pratibha:

Thanks for a very interesting insight into an Indian ghostwriter life. Frankly, I was postponing an outsource order for a series of cooking mini-articles for autoreponder because I thought it may be more expensive, may be I should check those sites (Goober, elance, etc) again...

I agree with a lot of people on this thread: if you write _original_ artcile as a free sample, you are giving too much power to webmasters. You need customers, but they need the content. If all they need is just something to throw into PLR pack, they don't really need you, but you also don't really need them. It's likely they are penniless and just cannot pay.

Send them to portfolio for style. If the whole project is one article for $5, what free samples are they talking about? That $5 is their cost of the sample. Or, just don't take orders for just 1 article for $5, only consider series and put a delivery and payment schedule. Say, they want 50 articles, deliver one, get paid the first installment, deliver 10, get paid the next installment. I know it's pain in the ... well, you know, but once you get through this, you will be getting repeat orders (provided, you are as good as you think) from a person you already tested and who is genuine. And he will come to you again for the same reason. And if it does not work, fine, nobody's got cheated.

In essence, you have to be more picky about whom you work with. I know it's not easy, and many people get desperate (not to mention, may just need money for food, it happens here in US too), but that will only bring you into the hamster wheel of free samples. Maybe you should spend less time writing free samples and more time into marketing yourself, so that quality customers like myself will find you. For reference, I have 100% payment rate on Goober as an employer. I've met Indian providers who claim a lot, but who, frankly, suck. So what?

I just always start with a small project with the new provider. If he cannot deliver, I pay agreed small amount and leave the honest feedback. That's it. Yes, they may retaliate, but once customers see my 100% payment rate and good feed back I gave to other providers, they understand. And those, who don't, are probably not that good to do the work anyway...

Market yourself, be reasonable for both sides (including not giving up too much), build repeat customer base -- yes, that's very hard in any part of the world. Do you think it's easy for me to get people stick to my websites?

Anyway, good luck.