Just got a SUSPECT email from a VERY well known marketer...

57 replies
I won't name him here -- but the email is troubling because it says...

I am thrilled when I get the opportunity
to recommend something to you that you
will help you make money & get immediate
value from it!

...Without buying anything, or even opting in...

Enjoy this free, pure content video now: (then the link to the vid)

[[[note: the email promises the vid can be viewed WITHOUT opting in]]]

Then (you guessed it), when you arrive at the link, sure enough you ARE required to opt in.
An opt in box that says in large type "OPT IN HERE"

If you try to play the vid WITHOUT opting in, you are not permitted to -- a pop up appears that says this...

"Hold on a sec... Just enter your email address in the box to the right under the arrows and click the button that says Show me the video. Your information is kept highly guarded by us and under no circumstances would we ever rent or sell your information."

(translation: never trust me again)

-- TW
#email #marketer #suspect
  • Profile picture of the author stma
    It's possible that it's a cookie thing and the person who sent you the e-mail really CAN see the video with out opting in.

    They could have looked at the video yesterday - went back to get you the link and said "hey the opt in is gone.... let me tell others".

    Unless there is some kind of back end sale they aren't getting anything from it other than diluting their own list.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
    Talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill... The way your subject line went I thought something illegal had just taken place.

    Come on it's an email address for crying out loud. If you want the video, get it and then if you don't want on the list just opt-out... it's that simple.

    I understand that you say this certain marketer said there would be no opt-in but like come on, for something that small you're willing to nail him to the cross for it?

    Mike Hill
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  • Profile picture of the author ken_p
    i thought so too.
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  • Profile picture of the author wolfejon61
    Originally Posted by -- TW View Post

    I won't name him here -- but the email is troubling because it says...

    I am thrilled when I get the opportunity
    to recommend something to you that you
    will help you make money & get immediate
    value from it!

    ...Without buying anything, or even opting in...

    Enjoy this free, pure content video now: (then the link to the vid)

    [[[note: the email promises the vid can be viewed WITHOUT opting in]]]

    Then (you guessed it), when you arrive at the link, sure enough you ARE required to opt in.
    An opt in box that says in large type "OPT IN HERE"

    If you try to play the vid WITHOUT opting in, you are not permitted to -- a pop up appears that says this...

    "Hold on a sec... Just enter your email address in the box to the right under the arrows and click the button that says Show me the video. Your information is kept highly guarded by us and under no circumstances would we ever rent or sell your information."

    (translation: never trust me again)

    -- TW
    LOL.. Thats just a spam mail and i would never opt for such kind of things. I dont want my mailbox to be full with spam mails. I would always prefer to stay away from this spam stuffs.
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  • Profile picture of the author monsur
    Keep away yourself from it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dal.K
      it could have been something to do with a cookie, or even worse it could have been an error on the marketers part. But an opt in is part and parcel of our business, like Mike said- its not the crime of the century.
      Signature

      My Girlfriends Blog: http://idlethoughtslazymusings.wordpress.com
      Trying To Convince Her To Market It, For More Eyeballs..

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  • Profile picture of the author rosetrees
    What about the product advertised at the top of this forum. It tells me "You Can See It All For Free!"

    How much does "fre-e" cost? "Get Product Name for $17!"
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    • Profile picture of the author SuzanneH
      Originally Posted by rosetrees View Post

      What about the product advertised at the top of this forum. It tells me "You Can See It All For Free!"

      How much does "fre-e" cost? "Get Product Name for $17!"
      Try re-reading that:

      "How to Set Up A Membership Site In Under 6 Minutes -
      Using COMPLETELY FREE Software!"

      It doesn't say it's free; it says it will show you to set up a membership site USING free software.

      Suzanne
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      • Profile picture of the author rosetrees
        Originally Posted by SuzanneH View Post

        Try re-reading that:

        "How to Set Up A Membership Site In Under 6 Minutes -
        Using COMPLETELY FREE Software!"

        It doesn't say it's free; it says it will show you to set up a membership site USING free software.

        Suzanne
        I stand by my original quote - which was taken directly from the site. You haven't read past the headline
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        • Profile picture of the author Robyn8243
          It is quite possible that it was a simple mistake.

          Marketers tend to test different methods. It is possible that an opt in was
          not required when the person wrote you about it, and then (especially
          if it is a new product launch where front page changes are common)
          by the time you looked at it, an opt in was required.

          I have seen this happen a few times recently.

          Robyn
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Grable
      Originally Posted by rosetrees View Post

      What about the product advertised at the top of this forum. It tells me "You Can See It All For Free!"

      How much does "fre-e" cost? "Get Product Name for $17!"
      rosetrees, It's poorly written, but you are twisting it the wrong direction. The point they are making is that yiou can set up the membership site and populate it with content AND wartch it to see if it generates traffic.... All For Free.
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      • Profile picture of the author rosetrees
        Originally Posted by Chris Grable View Post

        rosetrees, It's poorly written, but you are twisting it the wrong direction. The point they are making is that yiou can set up the membership site and populate it with content AND wartch it to see if it generates traffic.... All For Free.
        Yes, I agree it's poorly written. I don't think I'm "twisting" it though - here's what it says:

        "You Can See It All For Free!

        Here's what I got with your name on it: I have 2 PDF guides and 4 videos going into exact and clear detail on every step in my membership converter technique."


        I think it's just wrong!

        Either way - poorly written or misleading, it guarantees I won't buy. I hate being mislead. Had they been honest up front I might have been interested, that's why I was reading it! And I wasn't looking for a freeby, until I was, apparently, told I was going to get one, then told I wasn't. That put me off I'm afraid.
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        • Profile picture of the author DougBarger
          Originally Posted by rosetrees View Post

          Yes, I agree it's poorly written. I don't think I'm "twisting" it though - here's what it says:

          "You Can See It All For Free!

          Here's what I got with your name on it: I have 2 PDF guides and 4 videos going into exact and clear detail on every step in my membership converter technique."


          I think it's just wrong!

          Either way - poorly written or misleading, it guarantees I won't buy. I hate being mislead. Had they been honest up front I might have been interested, that's why I was reading it! And I wasn't looking for a freeby, until I was, apparently, told I was going to get one, then told I wasn't. That put me off I'm afraid.

          I've got that product and I can vouch it's one GREAT product
          and it is selling like gangbusters. There's quite a buzz about it and
          for good reason, it's a quality product.

          It's retail price is $37 and he's offering it for $17,
          so it's one heck of a great deal for all the videos,
          pdfs, helps and literal "click here, then click there" type guidance
          he's giving.

          I don't think there was any intent to mislead at all in the offer
          because the price is clearly placed and it's a ton of value
          compared to the low, low price.

          I think what he means is after you get the videos you don't have to
          pay to see each step of putting the membership together, getting a
          script, etc. because you can see exactly all of it and get all that stuff
          for free as a buyer.

          Don't let something not intended "put you off" of getting something
          that will help you! (my opinion)

          It rocks! Way to go J-Flad.
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  • Profile picture of the author Shana_Adam
    The number 1 reason why I unsubscribe from lists is the constant bombardment. Sometimes up to twice a day the same email. I do however leave a message

    Shameless money grabbing ....
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    I wasn't nailing anyone to a cross. It's not the crime of the century. It's just a bald-faced lie, that's all. "Come over here Johnny, and I promise I won't hit you on the head"... [[[CLONK!!!]]]

    Specific promise betrayed. It's a crime of ethics. "But it's only an email address, c'mon!" If that's so (a legit excuse), then why is making the specific promise that opting in (giving one's email address) is NOT required, significant enough for the sender to PROMISE that condition as a LURE?

    There's no excuse for it, imo.

    What someone did this?... Sent an email that touts a product that is "ABSOLUTELY FREE FREE FREE!!! -- 100% NO CHARGE!" Then you go to the link, and it says, "ONLY ONE DOLLAR!"

    You gonna post on here, "C'mon! What's the big deal?!? -- it's only a dollar! -- 100 pennies, fer gosh sakes!"

    That's not the point.

    The point is, a specific promise was made -- and that specific promise was specifically broken.
    The SIZE of the promise matters not. It was made as a LURE, then summarily REMOVED when the fish shows up.

    Shana -- can't leave a message (of disgust) -- the return address is noreply. Also, no contact us on the main site.

    -- TW
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  • Profile picture of the author geniussunny
    They are likely selling people e-mail addresses, but there is some kind of back end sale, they aren't getting anything......

    never opt for such things........
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    Originally Posted by -- TW View Post

    I won't name him here
    Here's a perfectly ethical possibility for what you see.

    Beach guys go to email guy. They say "do a JV with us, and promote our video."

    Email guy goes and looks, and says "holy crap, they don't even require an opt-in, that's awesome value." He sends to his list.

    Swarms of traffic descend on the video. Beach guys go "WTF, nobody is opting in... OMG we forgot to install that script!"

    They hurriedly install it, hoping they didn't lose too many people. Email guy doesn't own or control the site, so he doesn't even know about this and can't stop them anyway.

    Meanwhile, thanks to email spinners, many subscribers weren't told there was no opt-in (I got "..Without having to buy anything!" and nothing about opt-in at all). So they don't even get the chance to be annoyed about it.

    Not everything is unethical or dishonest. Sometimes it's just a mistake.
    Signature
    "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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  • Profile picture of the author Dally137
    I think everyone is bit or more pissed about it. One time you think you got something than you don't. Finally in the middle of all this you might lose something important. It's a shame that some real good will is getting pushed down.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Let's see...

      John Doe marketer starts a video campaign and decides to not have opt in,
      to start with anyway.

      Jane Doe sees that video requires no opt in and notifies her list about this
      amazing thing.

      John Doe, not getting the response he wants, decides the next day to
      change it to an opt in.

      Bob "I Love To Be Pissed Off About Anything" Jones goes to the video
      after the opt in is installed and immediately cries foul, unethical, scammer
      and a lot of names I can't print here.

      We are all so quick to bury everybody under the bus whenever something
      like this happens without considering the possibility that there is a very
      logical explanation like the one I just gave, or the one another person
      gave above, which is probably the more likely scenario.

      How about we stop thinking the worst of people and give them the
      benefit of the doubt until we know for certain.

      1. Did we notify the video creator to ask it opt in was always required?

      2. Did we notify the person who sent the email that opt in is now
      required and ask why they said it wasn't? Maybe we'll get a logical
      explanation.

      This is the one thing about this business that, quite honestly, makes me
      sometimes wish I wasn't a part of it. People are ready to hang you the
      minute something doesn't look right BEFORE they get all the facts.

      I'm just glad that I didn't know about this video and emailed my list about
      it BEFORE opt in was added.

      I can only imagine what people would be saying about me.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
        Originally Posted by -- TW View Post

        can't leave a message (of disgust) -- the return address is noreply. Also, no contact us on the main site.
        No way to contact them? What about unsubscribing?

        It begs the question... Are you sure it was a real eMail from the marketer? By that, I mean that I get spam messages all the time purportedly from big name marketers--but they are not. They are spam.

        One tell-tale sign can be if the message is from (or on behalf of) Mr. Well-Known Marketer, sometimes even Mister Well-Known Marketer. I think some spammers don't realize how informal marketers typically are.

        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        This is the one thing about this business that, quite honestly, makes me
        sometimes wish I wasn't a part of it. People are ready to hang you the
        minute something doesn't look right BEFORE they get all the facts.

        I'm just glad that I didn't know about this video and emailed my list about
        it BEFORE opt in was added.

        I can only imagine what people would be saying about me.
        LOL! You don't want to know.
        Signature

        Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

        Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

          Are you sure it was a real eMail from the marketer?
          It was. You can tell from the URLs, too.

          This is one of the things that worries me about JVs. It's entirely possible for a JV that leads to someone else's site to be modified or removed by the time my users get there. I get paranoid about that; once you have backlinks to something, it's forever, and you should never remove it. Something should be at that URL until the end of time; ideally, the same thing you always had there. At the very least, explain that it was removed and why you did it.

          But people don't respect that - they decide "I don't want to sell this anymore," or "I don't really think that anymore," and they just delete things. When I've advertised that link somewhere, it makes me look bad. I don't like that risk.
          Signature
          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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          • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            This is one of the things that worries me about JVs. It's entirely possible for a JV that leads to someone else's site to be modified or removed by the time my users get there.
            To some degree, can't you mitigate that? In the current example, what if the marketer had eMailed the other marketer saying something like, "There's no opt-in on your video. Was that an oversight or is it intentional?" Then, if they tell you one thing and do another, you know that you probably don't want to work with that person again.

            It may not solve every problem, but maybe it would reduce them.

            I get paranoid about that; once you have backlinks to something, it's forever, and you should never remove it. Something should be at that URL until the end of time; ideally, the same thing you always had there. At the very least, explain that it was removed and why you did it.

            But people don't respect that - they decide "I don't want to sell this anymore," or "I don't really think that anymore," and they just delete things. When I've advertised that link somewhere, it makes me look bad. I don't like that risk.
            Advertise it through your own link, using a PHP redirect. That way, you always have control over that link. If they change or pull the offer, you can change that redirect to a regular page with an explanation.
            Signature

            Dan's content is irregularly read by handfuls of people. Join the elite few by reading his blog: dcrBlogs.com, following him on Twitter: dcrTweets.com or reading his fiction: dcrWrites.com but NOT by Clicking Here!

            Dan also writes content for hire, but you can't afford him anyway.
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            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

              If they change or pull the offer, you can change that redirect to a regular page with an explanation.
              I'd still have to track and check all those redirects. Over time, that could get to be a pretty big job... especially because the vast majority of these offers won't have problems at all.

              It's a theoretical problem, anyway. Don't have a list yet (damn you GetResponse!), so JVs aren't in my immediate future.
              Signature
              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Grable
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Let's see...

        John Doe marketer starts a video campaign and decides to not have opt in,
        to start with anyway.

        Jane Doe sees that video requires no opt in and notifies her list about this
        amazing thing.

        John Doe, not getting the response he wants, decides the next day to
        change it to an opt in.

        Bob "I Love To Be Pissed Off About Anything" Jones goes to the video
        after the opt in is installed and immediately cries foul, unethical, scammer
        and a lot of names I can't print here.

        We are all so quick to bury everybody under the bus whenever something
        like this happens without considering the possibility that there is a very
        logical explanation like the one I just gave, or the one another person
        gave above, which is probably the more likely scenario.

        How about we stop thinking the worst of people and give them the
        benefit of the doubt until we know for certain.

        1. Did we notify the video creator to ask it opt in was always required?

        2. Did we notify the person who sent the email that opt in is now
        required and ask why they said it wasn't? Maybe we'll get a logical
        explanation.

        This is the one thing about this business that, quite honestly, makes me
        sometimes wish I wasn't a part of it. People are ready to hang you the
        minute something doesn't look right BEFORE they get all the facts.

        I'm just glad that I didn't know about this video and emailed my list about
        it BEFORE opt in was added.

        I can only imagine what people would be saying about me.
        There you go again Steven... Being logical. <grin>
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      • Profile picture of the author sellingonline
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        This is the one thing about this business that, quite honestly, makes me
        sometimes wish I wasn't a part of it. People are ready to hang you the
        minute something doesn't look right BEFORE they get all the facts.

        I'm just glad that I didn't know about this video and emailed my list about
        it BEFORE opt in was added.

        I can only imagine what people would be saying about me.
        Steven, I was about to write something similar, you saved me 2 minutes, thanks! :-)
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        • Profile picture of the author jmarketer
          I agree. Your reputation is all that you have and once it's gone, there's almost no chance of coming back.
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
    "You can see it all for free"

    This is a copywriting tactic used by the best copywriters, including John Carlton. It simply means that YES you can see it all for free, because if you don't like it, you don't have to pay for it.

    ...They call it Risk Reversal.
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  • Originally Posted by -- TW View Post

    I won't name him here -- but the email is troubling because it says...

    I am thrilled when I get the opportunity
    to recommend something to you that you
    will help you make money & get immediate
    value from it!

    ...Without buying anything, or even opting in...

    Enjoy this free, pure content video now: (then the link to the vid)

    [[[note: the email promises the vid can be viewed WITHOUT opting in]]]

    Then (you guessed it), when you arrive at the link, sure enough you ARE required to opt in.
    An opt in box that says in large type "OPT IN HERE"

    If you try to play the vid WITHOUT opting in, you are not permitted to -- a pop up appears that says this...

    "Hold on a sec... Just enter your email address in the box to the right under the arrows and click the button that says Show me the video. Your information is kept highly guarded by us and under no circumstances would we ever rent or sell your information."

    (translation: never trust me again)

    -- TW
    It's posts like these that lead people to say that the warrior forum sucks. I mean common, don't you have anything better to do with your time? It's quite likely that the guy hosting the squeeze page just changed it from a reverse to a standard one and that the guy that sent you the email didn't notice... big woop.
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  • Profile picture of the author phylma
    I've run across this same situation a number of times. At first I thought it might just be an error on the part of the person sending the email. But when it began to be a consistent 'error' immediately opted out of their list.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      So, everyone is giving "John Doe" the benefit of the doubt?

      I didn't get the email, but I'd be a little pissed too if I got an email that said no opt-in, but there was indeed and opt-in on the page.

      It's not a matter of giving someone my email address because I could easily give a throw away. It's a matter of someone just telling me any ol' thing to get me to go where they want me to go.

      Did the marketer send out another email saying that there was an opt-in on the page? I sure as hell get enough emails within 2 minutes from people that used the wrong link in their email.

      There has to be some honesty and integrity in email marketing, right? Unfortunately more and more people with lists are just abusing the shit out of them...outright lying, deceiving, and in general being more of a pain in the ass than being helpful.

      I'm not saying that is the case with what happened here, but I think it sucks when anyone with a post count about 500 always jumps to the assumption that email guru X must have just made a mistake and the person posting a thread because of something like this is wrong.
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      • Profile picture of the author dv8
        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

        So, everyone is giving "John Doe" the benefit of the doubt?

        I didn't get the email, but I'd be a little pissed too if I got an email that said no opt-in, but there was indeed and opt-in on the page.

        It's not a matter of giving someone my email address because I could easily give a throw away. It's a matter of someone just telling me any ol' thing to get me to go where they want me to go.

        Did the marketer send out another email saying that there was an opt-in on the page? I sure as hell get enough emails within 2 minutes from people that used the wrong link in their email.

        There has to be some honesty and integrity in email marketing, right? Unfortunately more and more people with lists are just abusing the shit out of them...outright lying, deceiving, and in general being more of a pain in the ass than being helpful.

        I'm not saying that is the case with what happened here, but I think it sucks when anyone with a post count about 500 always jumps to the assumption that email guru X must have just made a mistake and the person posting a thread because of something like this is wrong.
        I pretty much agree with this.

        Yes, it could have been a mistake. But let's be real here. I highly doubt it was. As quoted above, it was most likely said just to get people to go where they want them.

        And yes, perhaps it isn't a big deal. Right now. But the problem is over time. Right now it's a little white lie "go here, no opt in". Few weeks from now it's a slightly larger lie. Few months, it's bigger than the last lie. In a year, well, you get the idea.

        How about making money AND being ethical. There's a concept.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post


        I'm not saying that is the case with what happened here, but I think it sucks when anyone with a post count about 500 always jumps to the assumption that email guru X must have just made a mistake and the person posting a thread because of something like this is wrong.
        Jeremy, I think I have more than 500 posts and while I admit that is it
        quite possible that the person who sent that email is the biggest scum
        sucking marketer on the planet, why do people always assume the worst
        of somebody?

        What if I had sent that email, honestly believing it was no opt in when the
        email was sent?

        Knowing me as you do, you'd probably say, "Oh, this has to be a mistake
        because Steve Wagenheim would never scam anybody."

        Or would you be sitting there boiling over thinking, "OMG, that no good
        Steve Wagenheim, he's become one of those scamming scum sucking
        pigs"

        God, I hope not.

        All I know, is I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and go through
        the process that I outlined in my initial thread to get to the truth of
        what actually happened.

        It's just a thought that maybe we should get the facts before we start
        throwing stones.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Steve, it very well could have been a mistake...

          But, every single time something like this comes up,
          everyone wants to pile on the person with the concern
          instead of the person doing the deeds.

          Could it have been a mistake, sure!

          I know this though...

          If someone makes a mistake with an email and sends
          a dead link, you can bet your ass that 3 minutes later
          you are going to get a new email with the corrected
          link.

          Was there a follow up email in this case saying:

          "Damn, I thought there was no opt-in, but it turns out there is"

          On top of that...

          For all the email marketers in this thread, when was the last
          time a JV partner told you there was no opt-in and there was?

          or

          That a product was free and it turns out it really wasn't?

          I'm willing to bet that the answer in most cases is never.

          Like I said before, I'm not talking shit about whoever sent the
          email. Everyone rolls the way they roll. However, it's pretty unfair
          to always jump on the side of the email marketer especially when
          someone feels as though they have been deceived.

          If this was just someone complaining about getting too many
          emails, I would tell them to stop being a baby and unsubscribe.
          But, this person feels as though they have been LIED to which
          is not acceptable.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Jeremy Kelsall View Post

            Steve, it very well could have been a mistake...

            But, every single time something like this comes up,
            everyone wants to pile on the person with the concern
            instead of the person doing the deeds.

            Could it have been a mistake, sure!

            I know this though...

            If someone makes a mistake with an email and sends
            a dead link, you can bet your ass that 3 minutes later
            you are going to get a new email with the corrected
            link.

            Was there a follow up email in this case saying:

            "Damn, I thought there was no opt-in, but it turns out there is"

            On top of that...

            For all the email marketers in this thread, when was the last
            time a JV partner told you there was no opt-in and there was?

            or

            That a product was free and it turns out it really wasn't?

            I'm willing to bet that the answer in most cases is never.

            Like I said before, I'm not talking shit about whoever sent the
            email. Everyone rolls the way they roll. However, it's pretty unfair
            to always jump on the side of the email marketer especially when
            someone feels as though they have been deceived.

            If this was just someone complaining about getting too many
            emails, I would tell them to stop being a baby and unsubscribe.
            But, this person feels as though they have been LIED to which
            is not acceptable.

            This is the reason why I rarely promote anybody else's products because
            I have no control over what they do with their sites. I could have been
            this guy.

            And as for a follow up email, unless I went back to the site at a later
            date or somebody actually wrote to me to tell me that the site had an
            opt in, I would have never known.

            And believe me, there have been times, though rare, that I have promoted
            something and 10 minutes later I'd get an email telling me that something
            was not right about the offer.

            In all instances, I'd immediately email a correction and an explanation.

            But you know what?

            The damage was done. My unsubscribes on those occasions were
            through the roof.

            So now, unless I know you personally, I don't promote anything in the
            IM niche.

            It's just not worth the hassle because of the way people react.

            And if I feel that way, how many other marketers do you think feel the
            same way?

            It's no wonder we get so many people coming here complaining that they
            can't get affiliates. Heck, I just flat out ignore almost all the requests I
            get because I don't know these people from Adam.

            As a matter of fact, Dean Shainin and Alvin Yuang (sp?) are the only
            two marketers that I have promoted anything for in the IM niche in the
            last year. Before that, it was Nitro Marketing and THAT has been it.

            It's a sad commentary on the state of this industry if you ask me.

            And anybody who says I'm wrong, let me ask you a question.

            How many marketers do you REALLY trust to sell their products?

            The list isn't all that long.
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            • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
              I really don't understand responses like this: Come on it's an email address for crying out loud. If you want the video, get it and then if you don't want on the list just opt-out... it's that simple.

              Yes, I could do that -- but that's not the issue here.

              Here's an analogy...

              While traveling, I used to buy those calling cards (old school pre-paid minutes, basically) to be used at payphones (remember those?) + landlines. The main problem with these cards is the CONNECTION FEE. Sure you can get low per-minute fees, but the (per CALL) CONNECTION FEE was always what to watch out for.

              There was this one card, the front of which SCREAMED, "NO CONNECTION FEES!!!" That headline took up 3/4 of the face of the card. This was their big selling point ("lure")!

              Yes, you guessed it -- in the (VERY) fine print (on the back) it said, "a 50 cent per-call connection fee will be charged."

              Now, let's back up a bit and listen in on the MEETING that determined the design + selling points of the card...

              Mike: One of the drawbacks of our system is the 50-cent connection fee.

              Charlie: That's easy -- Let's just lie about it.

              Mike: You mean don't mention it?

              Charlie: No. I mean just plain lie about it.

              Mike: How so?

              Charlie: Let's SPLASH ACROSS THE FACE OF THE CARD: "NO CONNECTION FEES!!!"

              Mike: Huh?!?

              ___________________________


              I'm much more like Mike, than I am like Charlie. How about you?

              Anyone who responds to this situation as Charlie might, gets a hearty, "Huh?!?" from me.

              If it's a mistake, that's one thing. If it's a just-plain-lie, that's another. The "SIZE" of the lie is totally unimportant! It is the trying to "put one over" on people that is the problem.

              -- TW
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by -- TW View Post


                If it's a mistake, that's one thing. If it's a just-plain-lie, that's another. The "SIZE" of the lie is totally unimportant! It is the trying to "put one over" on people that is the problem.

                -- TW

                TW, I agree with you. If it's a lie, the marketer loses all my respect and
                I probably will do no business with him...ever.

                But the problem I have is you have already determined that it's a lie without
                getting any verification whatsoever.

                What happened to innocent until proven guilty?

                As I said, had I sent out that same email, honestly thinking it was no opt
                in, I'd be raked over the coals right now unjustly.

                My opinion, and it's only my opinion, is that you get all the facts before
                you make accusations.

                Having said that, if you want to believe the guy is a lying scum, then
                that's your choice.

                Personally, I'd like to have all the facts before I make that decision.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mike Hill
                Originally Posted by -- TW View Post

                I really don't understand responses like this: Come on it's an email address for crying out loud. If you want the video, get it and then if you don't want on the list just opt-out... it's that simple.

                Yes, I could do that -- but that's not the issue here.

                Here's an analogy...

                While traveling, I used to buy those calling cards (old school pre-paid minutes, basically) to be used at payphones (remember those?) + landlines. The main problem with these cards is the CONNECTION FEE. Sure you can get low per-minute fees, but the (per CALL) CONNECTION FEE was always what to watch out for.

                There was this one card, the front of which SCREAMED, "NO CONNECTION FEES!!!" That headline took up 3/4 of the face of the card. This was their big selling point ("lure")!

                Yes, you guessed it -- in the (VERY) fine print (on the back) it said, "a 50 cent per-call connection fee will be charged."

                Now, let's back up a bit and listen in on the MEETING that determined the design + selling points of the card...

                Mike: One of the drawbacks of our system is the 50-cent connection fee.

                Charlie: That's easy -- Let's just lie about it.

                Mike: You mean don't mention it?

                Charlie: No. I mean just plain lie about it.

                Mike: How so?

                Charlie: Let's SPLASH ACROSS THE FACE OF THE CARD: "NO CONNECTION FEES!!!"

                Mike: Huh?!?

                ___________________________


                I'm much more like Mike, than I am like Charlie. How about you?

                Anyone who responds to this situation as Charlie might, gets a hearty, "Huh?!?" from me.

                If it's a mistake, that's one thing. If it's a just-plain-lie, that's another. The "SIZE" of the lie is totally unimportant! It is the trying to "put one over" on people that is the problem.

                -- TW

                TW, You quoted me so at least have the balls to come right out and say you don't agree with me so I can respond, even though I don't know why I am wasting my time with this...

                This is such an idiotic thread...

                Anyway, your analogy doesn't hold water... It's comparing apples to oranges. Opting in doesn't cost you any money. You didn't loose anything!

                Purchasing a calling card is one thing but opting into a list with an email account that didn't cost you anything and complaining about getting something for free is absolutely ridiculous and if you are that stunned then how can you even call yourself a marketer?

                Obviously, as many pointed out in this thread already, it could easily have been changed at a later point in time. When affiliates promote a product they don't go back to the product sales page and read it through every single time.

                Good Lord... if that's as bad as it gets for you then I think you're still having a good day. Instead of barking up a tree over something this ridiculous why not carry on and forget about it?

                You remind me of an old friend of mine... a real stress case over the smallest of things!

                Mike Hill
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                • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
                  Mike, I usually agree with a lot of what you have to say...

                  But, I think in this case you are swinging way far to one side.

                  TW has admitted and given the benefit of the doubt to the sender of the email once or twice in this thread. However, even since the initial email he has gotten another email that still indicates that the video was no strings attached.

                  Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

                  Anyway, your analogy doesn't hold water... It's comparing apples to oranges. Opting in doesn't cost you any money. You didn't loose anything!
                  He sure as hell did - He wasted his time. I'm not saying it was a lot of time, but how much are you worth every 15 minutes while your working? I know I'd be pissed if someone took that from me...would you?

                  Here's another analogy for you. Joe marketer buys your product and refunds 10 seconds later. It's a digital product so, big deal it didn't cost you anything, right? Oh well, move along...Maybe he is a piece of shit serial refunder or maybe he really is telling the truth that he didn't have enough space left on his computer to store your PDF...

                  Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

                  Purchasing a calling card is one thing but opting into a list with an email account that didn't cost you anything and complaining about getting something for free is absolutely ridiculous and if you are that stunned then how can you even call yourself a marketer?
                  It's not ridiculous. If the damn guy sending the emails sent them knowing that there was an opt-in...then the guy is a liar and people have the right to be pissed off. There is marketing and then there is being underhanded. I don't see why so many people in this thread would rather bash the OP for the fact that he is offended that there is a possibility that he was lied to. Who the hell likes to be lied to, regardless of the situation?

                  Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

                  Obviously, as many pointed out in this thread already, it could easily have been changed at a later point in time. When affiliates promote a product they don't go back to the product sales page and read it through every single time.
                  Your right. It could have been. From the second email that the same marketer sent, it doesn't seem likely though. I'm still not saying it isn't possible that it was...but - well...just sayin.

                  Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

                  Good Lord... if that's as bad as it gets for you then I think you're still having a good day. Instead of barking up a tree over something this ridiculous why not carry on and forget about it?
                  Because it is obvious that it was at least somewhat important TO HIM. Whether or not that is important to you honestly is pretty irrelevant. People get pissed off about different things. I don't get pissed about emails, but there are definitely things in this business that do piss me off and believe it or not many of them revolve around untruths and blatant lying.

                  Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

                  You remind me of an old friend of mine... a real stress case over the smallest of things!
                  If the guy was in here complaining that he got 27 emails today from the same marketer, that would be one thing. Opt-out and stop your crying - After all, you opted-in to begin with. Noone ops into any list to be lied to and decieved...PERIOD. Doing that to your list intentionally doesn't make you a good marketer. It makes you an asshole.

                  Again, I have no idea who the marketer in question is..I also have no idea if it was done intentionally or if it was just an over sight so, I'm definitely not bad mouthing anyone.

                  I'm only saying what I'm saying if it proves to be a case of "Screw it, I'll say whatever to get them where I want them to go. If they don't like it F them"

                  Jeremy
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                • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
                  Originally Posted by Mike Hill View Post

                  TW, You quoted me so at least have the balls to come right out and say you don't agree with me so I can respond, even though I don't know why I am wasting my time with this...

                  This is such an idiotic thread...

                  Anyway, your analogy doesn't hold water... It's comparing apples to oranges. Opting in doesn't cost you any money. You didn't loose anything!

                  Purchasing a calling card is one thing but opting into a list with an email account that didn't cost you anything and complaining about getting something for free is absolutely ridiculous and if you are that stunned then how can you even call yourself a marketer?

                  Mike Hill
                  Umm -- balls? I'm not sure I understand. I did quote you -- I just didn't attribute the quote. I thought that was MORE polite than naming you specifically.

                  When you say, "it didn't cost you anything [just your email address, not money]," you may be missing my point.

                  The marketer was using the ABSENCE of needing to opt-in as a SELLING point -- a BENEFIT.

                  Why?

                  If giving one's email address is no big deal, then why use NOT having to do that as a lure (at all)?

                  That's exactly the point -- GIVING one's email address (opting in) IS giving "more" than not opting in. That is the precise reason marketers go to such lengths (read: falling all over themselves with all manner of squeeze pages, etc. etc.) to CAUSE people to GIVE their email addresses + opt in to various lists.

                  Giving one's email address is NOT the same as not giving one's email address.

                  >> The marketer in this case realizes that (which is why that LURE was used).

                  >> I realize that (which is why I started this (as you call it, "idiotic") thread).

                  >> It is only *you* who seems not to understand that giving one's email address (opting in) IS giving something "away" (not money, no -- but certainly something of 'value'). Therefore, I think it is your 'marketinghood' that might be called into question here.

                  In that respect, my analogy does hold water.

                  -- TW
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post


          It's just a thought that maybe we should get the facts before we start
          throwing stones.
          Again, I'm not saying that the sender of the email did
          it intentionally.
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  • Profile picture of the author jimh1626
    So frickin what. Get a throw away email account at google and use that. I don't care how much they spam my throw away account. I use one acct just for signup purposes and if they quality is good and I want to see what the person has to say I will optin with a real account. It is an email address, not your bank account info.

    Jim
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    • Profile picture of the author daddynanny
      that's right. a throwaway email is the best solution to avoid spam mails. marketers will remain marketers. once you opted-in their offers - it's 100% sure you'll be bombarded with offer after offer.
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  • Profile picture of the author SanderVH
    I think OP got pissed at something so small because of the amount of times he'd been hit by some sort of sales pitch through email. The smart thing to do, like others have mentioned is to have an account just for the purposes of subscribing. It really let's you see how much cross promotion there is between established marketers and how fake or real they actually are.
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  • Profile picture of the author k8spy8
    It is something you get very much interested and when you are into it you are giving away your mail address thus helping the spammer to do more spam. An easiest way to make bad impression of yourself by you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rob Anderson
    high chance it is spam.
    hell i get spam from my own email address.
    well from the "webmaster" side of it.
    and i have no idea how to stop it.
    unwitting spammer.
    Signature
    Just good marketing advice - Business ideas
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  • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
    Steven -- I agree with you (too). Maybe I should give the guy the benefit of the doubt. How/where would I get all the facts? Perception is reality, so I'm not sure who has the burden of proof. The marketer, or the marketEE? Shoul I post all the info here + see what other people think? I wanted to keep it more general than specific.

    PS: I just looked again, and there's ANOTHER email from this person that says this...

    "After watching the video you will definitely
    want to opt in because they will be giving you a ton
    more resources, flow charts, and information that
    will change your business forever..."

    So -- does that add to the idea that it's a mistake, or that it's intentional? To me, it seems like he's 'doubled down' on the deception. Surely by now (24-48 hrs later) he must've/should've realized the 'mistake' in the 1st email, no? Please advise.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by -- TW View Post

      Steven -- I agree with you (too). Maybe I should give the guy the benefit of the doubt. How/where would I get all the facts? Perception is reality, so I'm not sure who has the burden of proof. The marketer, or the marketEE? Shoul I post all the info here + see what other people think? I wanted to keep it more general than specific.

      PS: I could have used the names Jeff + Paul in my little meeting scenario -- but that would have been too much of a give away.
      It's easy to get the facts. Any web site, even privately registered, you
      can get a contact email address for, even if it's just the proxy. Email them
      and ask them flat out, "Did you originally have no opt in and changed it or
      was it always like this?"

      Write to the guy who send the email. Be straight with him. Point out what
      he said in his email and then direct him to the reality and ask him to
      explain what happened.

      Sure, ultimately, you have to take their word for the explanation, as there
      is no way to know for sure unless somebody has the original site cached
      somewhere showing there was no opt in, but eventually, you get a feel
      for who is being straight with you and who is just flat out lying.
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      • Profile picture of the author TimothyW
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        It's easy to get the facts. Any web site, even privately registered, you
        can get a contact email address for, even if it's just the proxy. Email them
        and ask them flat out, "Did you originally have no opt in and changed it or
        was it always like this?"

        Write to the guy who send the email. Be straight with him. Point out what
        he said in his email and then direct him to the reality and ask him to
        explain what happened.

        Sure, ultimately, you have to take their word for the explanation, as there
        is no way to know for sure unless somebody has the original site cached
        somewhere showing there was no opt in, but eventually, you get a feel
        for who is being straight with you and who is just flat out lying.
        That makes a lot of sense -- thanks.

        My intent in my op was to bring up the topic in general. But to be specific, your plan is better. Thanks again. Maybe marketers should be sure to have some kind of 'contact us' on every page -- as a safety valve.
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    • Profile picture of the author elliec
      Originally Posted by -- TW View Post


      PS: I just looked again, and there's ANOTHER email from this person that says this...

      "After watching the video you will definitely
      want to opt in because they will be giving you a ton
      more resources, flow charts, and information that
      will change your business forever..."

      So -- does that add to the idea that it's a mistake, or that it's intentional? To me, it seems like he's 'doubled down' on the deception. Surely by now (24-48 hrs later) he must've/should've realized the 'mistake' in the 1st email, no? Please advise.
      Ouch...now I would have to say we have a marketer who a) can not admit that he has been duped or b) actually was complicit in the deception!
      He could have ended up with credibility if he had emailed his list and said "oops, sorry, was told there was no opt in, page was changed, bla, bla, bla...." but no, instead he seems to have created a follow-up message as a means of damage control. Too bad he didn't just come clean. Shows some lack of integrity. My 2 cents.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    Let me say I did not read all of the responses, but here goes.

    I think the e-mail isn't good. Assuming it was an honest mistake, it's not good for the marketer because it harms their reputation. It's not good for the reader because an explicit promise WAS made - no opt-in, no nothing, just watch the video.

    Sorry, but the responsibility to verify that falls on the sender of the message, not the recipient. Even if it's an honest mistake, it's still not cool.

    For all we know the sender is more distraught than the OP about the whole thing.

    So, the question to ask is how can you prevent it from happening to you? Get a friend to check your message for you. It may not be a perfect solution, but it can help.

    I think TW has every right to be a little miffed. It was misleading. Whether it was intentional or unintentional, it was still misleading.

    All the best,
    Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
    That's the problem. Here at the WF we understand, all too well, how easy it is to make these kinds of mistakes.

    BUT, the average reader doesn't get that part of it. So, in their view the guilt WAS proven as soon as they got to the site and saw they had to opt in.

    ~Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
    You know what irks me? It's when people attack the mesenger instead of discussing the issue. There's nothing wrong with having a differing viewpoint, but it drives me nuts when the person is attacked.

    For the record, I don't think TW came across as hot headed; just relating something that happened.

    Oh well, I am happy that there are so many different types of people here - even the ones that do what I don't like. Heck, it ain't my forum!



    Just wanted to get that off my chest. (That's part of what I have to do after my recent health issues).

    All the best and no offense,
    Michael
    Signature

    "Ich bin en fuego!"
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  • Profile picture of the author pappyy3
    Originally Posted by precious007 View Post

    Shit happens, there tons of well known marketers that share lists. I have a special email created just to see how these guys play around..

    Once a new product is launched they are sharing all lists to pump in traffic to the new product..Saying something like My friend from... "X" launched his new money making formula ..
    Really?

    Does that mean the privacy disclaimers on their websites are just B.S ???

    I've mentioned this on some other posts before, but any Marketer that resorts to forms of mis-information in order to get an email address, only gets burned in the end. (By this I mean the subscribers will quickly unsubscribe one they realise what's going on ....)
    Signature

    Tonster

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  • Profile picture of the author dsmpublishing
    I often get messages on twitter when im at my daily DM limit so i am forced to do a public reply with my email addy as a result my spam has hit new bounds.

    kind regards


    sam
    X
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  • Profile picture of the author Will_Surren
    Some food for thought.... Others judge us based on Perception.... We judge ourselves based on our intentions.....

    We must make efforts in our marketing to understand how other people will perceive our actions. We have thousands of opportunities to make bad impressions and in a single moment we can destroy the credibility we have built with our businesses. With every page view on our website and every email we send there is another opportunity for us to make or break our business. Shady marketing tactics may help your business in the short term but WILL in the long run cause your business to suffer.

    It is very hard to gain back lost credibility. When promoting products of other marketers, it is very important that we first have a level of trust in the person and their products.

    I have talked to several affiliate marketers that risk their credibility by promoting products they have never purchased themselves. Very risky business if you ask me...

    It is easy - plug in a throw away address and get over it. That is what I would do myself. However, the marketer who used the shady tactic to gain my email address has lost my confidence and trust. I will get the free info they offer for the opt-in and will never open my wallet for them.
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  • Profile picture of the author luisdonado
    I love replying to very old posts :-) I would opt in with a fake email generator, lol
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