How much would you pay for outsourced web design?

paul11

Banned 15 years ago

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Nathan Denton

15 years ago

Originally Posted by paul11

it's important that you learn the basics of web page creation. This doesn't mean you need a degree in web design, but you should know how to do the common tasks like add a link, change the text and do basic updates when you need to.
Regardless of what program you choose, the best gift you can give yourself is the knowledge of basic web page creation so you're not completely reliant upon a third party.
Outsourcing Is Still OK

I am not against outsourcing completely. There may be times when this is a good idea.
Say you want to create a more complex site with user profiles, interactivity, uploads, etc. These sites generally require a lot more programming than your basic text and picture site. And I don't know about you, but I'm not much into learning how to program.
Then it would be a good idea to hire someone to do this part of your site. However this still does not mean you shouldn't take it upon yourself to learn the basics of web page building. You should still invest in a good piece of software as I mentioned above.
rentacoder is an awesome tool to use if you need something done that is outside of your realm of expertise. Hope This Helps
To Your Success
Karl Paul

Hi Karl,

I have got the basic web designing skills down pat although I am not a programmer or anything like that. My main reason for outsourcing in this particular project is for the scaleability aspect. I simply don't have the time or the inclination to sit around and design websites all day.

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Steve Diamond

15 years ago

I'd like to inject a note of economic reality from a different perspective that may illuminate some of this discussion.

If you want to work with a freelance web designer from the U.S., Canada, or western Europe, here's what their calculations are going to look like. (And please note the "if" in the previous sentence, and don't complain that things may be different in other parts of the world. Sure they are. I'm not pretending to include anyplace but the areas stated.)

Most good web designers working for middle-sized to large corporations in the U.S. are getting a salary of between $50,000 and $70,000 or more. I'll take $60,000 for the sake of argument. This usually includes 2 - 4 weeks paid vacation, paid holidays, paid sick leave, medical insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance, disability insurance, life insurance, 401k matching funds, and the employer portion of FICA and Medicare. The price of just the insurance, retirement, and tax benefits (when the freelancer has to pay) works out to between $15,000 and $25,000 per year (depending on age and other insurance-related factors). Let's say $15,000 to be really conservative.

So the freelancer has to earn at least $75,000 per year to equal that $60,000 salary. In how many hours? Well, 40 times 52 is 2080 working hours in a year. Subtract at least 200 for vacation, holidays and sick days, leaving 1880. Then estimate how much downtime a freelancer ordinarily endures, even on working days. This includes all kinds of non-billable hours: travel, marketing of all kinds, preparing proposals, etc., etc., and so forth. The usual rule of thumb is that half one's time is spent on non-billable activities. But I'll be conservative again and just cut the hours from 1880 to 1000.

Since $75,000 divided by 1000 is $75, to equal the economic benefit of a $60,000 U.S. corporate salary, with benefits, a freelancer has to charge at least $75 per hour.

I'm willing to bet that this is a bit of a shocker to some of those who haven't thought this through. Please think of these numbers the next time you're tempted to offer less.

Steve

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seasoned

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Diamond

I'd like to inject a note of economic reality from a different perspective that may illuminate some of this discussion.

If you want to work with a freelance web designer from the U.S., Canada, or western Europe, here's what their calculations are going to look like. (And please note the "if" in the previous sentence, and don't complain that things may be different in other parts of the world. Sure they are. I'm not pretending to include anyplace but the areas stated.)

Most good web designers working for middle-sized to large corporations in the U.S. are getting a salary of between $50,000 and $70,000 or more. I'll take $60,000 for the sake of argument. This usually includes 2 - 4 weeks paid vacation, paid holidays, paid sick leave, medical insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance, disability insurance, life insurance, 401k matching funds, and the employer portion of FICA and Medicare. The price of just the insurance, retirement, and tax benefits (when the freelancer has to pay) works out to between $15,000 and $25,000 per year (depending on age and other insurance-related factors). Let's say $15,000 to be really conservative.

So the freelancer has to earn at least $75,000 per year to equal that $60,000 salary. In how many hours? Well, 40 times 52 is 2080 working hours in a year. Subtract at least 200 for vacation, holidays and sick days, leaving 1880. Then estimate how much downtime a freelancer ordinarily endures, even on working days. This includes all kinds of non-billable hours: travel, marketing of all kinds, preparing proposals, etc., etc., and so forth. The usual rule of thumb is that half one's time is spent on non-billable activities. But I'll be conservative again and just cut the hours from 1880 to 1000.

Since $75,000 divided by 1000 is $75, to equal the economic benefit of a $60,000 U.S. corporate salary, with benefits, a freelancer has to charge at least $75 per hour.

I'm willing to bet that this is a bit of a shocker to some of those who haven't thought this through. Please think of these numbers the next time you're tempted to offer less.

Steve

Though I didn't enumerate it quite so well, I MYSELF said something about this here YEARS ago! Many state that the hourly rate should be about 1000th the going salary. A "smart" person might realize that that is TWICE the yearly rate, but they forget the idea of non payment, risk, freedom, etc... THAT always means a higher price. Can you get someone for less? SURE! When I was a young kid, I was doing assembly on DNC devices for $10/hour! Of course I WAS a kid, didn't care about money, LOVED the work, etc... Even with what I wanted to eventually get at the time, I would have charged $30/hour.

HERE, I once worked at a bill rate of about $70/hour. That is LOW!!!!!! So WHY? Because an indian consultant that CLAIMED he had a family member die and had to go back to India. We found out he got a higher paying job HERE! So he broke a contract and left us high and dry, and he was making probably about $50/hour!

Steve

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TheRichJerksNet

15 years ago

I would pay the website designer what he/she is worth... Have no idea how else to answer that because you question is based upon many different aspects.

* The size of the site
* When you say website design do you mean design or programming also
* The type of site that needs built

These are just a few aspects that can determine price, there are many more.

James

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Nathan Denton

15 years ago

Originally Posted by TheRichJerksNet

I would pay the website designer what he/she is worth... Have no idea how else to answer that because you question is based upon many different aspects.

* The size of the site
* When you say website design do you mean design or programming also
* The type of site that needs built

These are just a few aspects that can determine price, there are many more.

James

I will be offering simple 3 page web sites for this project. They are not targeted toward the high end and will prob be sold for $100-$300 dollars each.

My aim is to recoup the outsourced web design costs from the upfront cost. My income from the project will be on the backend via a monthly hosting fee and I also intend to offer other products and services such as autoresponder management and SEO services.

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TheRichJerksNet

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Nathan Denton

I will be offering simple 3 page web sites for this project. They are not targeted toward the high end and will prob be sold for $100-$300 dollars each.

My aim is to recoup the outsourced web design costs from the upfront cost. My income from the project will be on the backend via a monthly hosting fee and I also intend to offer other products and services such as autoresponder management and SEO services.

Please Note: I DO NOT take on clients any longer so do not anyone take this as self promotion. I have built sites for clients that range from a few $100 all the up to $30,000 - But I am a developer not just a website designer.

Now to hopefully help answer your question: If the sites are built in Php then the cost would not be much... And this is the reason why I say this.

Having it built in php means all the inner pages (though there maybe only 3 you need to think about the future) will require minimum design if you already have layouts pre-set. Then all needs done is the header, footer, background images and maybe a few site images.

Doing it this way will save a great amount of work, time, and money. So basically all you would be paying for is template based work. You would need to pay for the layouts to be set but as I said once done then just re-use them over and over and have a new "template" created.

I hope that makes sense to you ...

In this case if I was still taking on clients and you had the layout pre-set then I would only charge about $50 for the template work. The reason being since everything is already pre-set and you just need the image work it would not take but a few hours to do the images.

James

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GuerrillaIM

15 years ago

Good designers are hard to find and worth the hourly rate when you do. I can let you use my guys for $20/hour if there is something that has to be done well.

You should be able to find someone good for abput $15/hr but you may have to go through a few bad designers to get to the good ones. It helps if you are a good designer yourself when identifying talent.

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Manfred Ekblad

15 years ago

lol - I was just about to submit this 3-page-long post about the outsourcing business, how to find the top playing clients, lessons learned and so on... but that's not what you asked for

I would pay maximum $6/hour for anything that is outsourced and related to webdesign/programming.

So, it all depends on the details of your offer. What's included?

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GuerrillaIM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Manfred Ekblad

lol - I was just about to submit this 3-page-long post about the outsourcing business, how to find the top playing clients, lessons learned and so on... but that's not what you asked for

I would pay maximum $6/hour for anything that is outsourced and related to webdesign/programming.

So, it all depends on the details of your offer. What's included?

A good designer can earn $30+/hour on a freelance basis. I would have to ask why they would be willing to work for such a low amount of money. I've been in this line of work for a while and I have never found anyone reliable for that rate. I have on occaision taken people on low rates of about $8/hr and always regretted it afterwards. In my opinion it works out cheaper to pay a higher hourly rate and not run the risk of having poor work done.

I just re-read your post and you say a maxium of $6 for programing also. This is dangerous advice in my opinion. $6 for programming? Really? Programming is one of those fields that you get what you pay for. I would be concerned why a good developer woud work for $6/hr when a decent developer usually charges a lot more than this.

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Darth Executor

15 years ago

Originally Posted by GuerrillaIM

A good designer can earn $30+/hour on a freelance basis. I would have to ask why they would be willing to work for such a low amount of money. I've been in this line of work for a while and I have never found anyone reliable for that rate. I have on occaision taken people on low rates of about $8/hr and always regretted it afterwards. In my opinion it works out cheaper to pay a higher hourly rate and not run the risk of having poor work done.

I just re-read your post and you say a maxium of $6 for programing also. This is dangerous advice in my opinion. $6 for programming? Really? Programming is one of those fields that you get what you pay for. I would be concerned why a good developer woud work for $6/hr when a decent developer usually charges a lot more than this.

One answer is that he hires foreigners who work for much cheaper. If I lived in a poor asian or south american nation 6 dollars/hour could be a considerable amount of money.

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Manfred Ekblad

15 years ago

Originally Posted by GuerrillaIM

A good designer can earn $30+/hour on a freelance basis. I would have to ask why they would be willing to work for such a low amount of money. I've been in this line of work for a while and I have never found anyone reliable for that rate. I have on occaision taken people on low rates of about $8/hr and always regretted it afterwards. In my opinion it works out cheaper to pay a higher hourly rate and not run the risk of having poor work done.

In Sweden, a good designer can earn $100-$300 / hour, and they really have to due to living costs, taxes etc. There are other countries/regions/cities, where the monthly salary is $200-$300 for web design/programming.

The question was what I would pay, not what I would charge, for such services. Maybe I should have simply replied "I'm not in your target group as I have my own office with full time staff of great designers and programmers."

Originally Posted by GuerrillaIM

I just re-read your post and you say a maxium of $6 for programing also. This is dangerous advice in my opinion. $6 for programming? Really? Programming is one of those fields that you get what you pay for. I would be concerned why a good developer woud work for $6/hr when a decent developer usually charges a lot more than this.

I see your point

you're right, you get what you pay for. In some countries, you get an experienced senior web developer with 7-10 years of experience for $2.73 / hour, if you pay them per month (health insurance included). However, if I would do a small number of projects then I also want to minimize my risk, so I would be less price sensitive and then, $20/hour is still a good price.

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CDarklock 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Manfred Ekblad

I would pay maximum $6/hour for anything that is outsourced and related to webdesign/programming.

Note to self: never refer designers or programmers to Manfred
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TheRichJerksNet

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Manfred Ekblad

lol - I was just about to submit this 3-page-long post about the outsourcing business, how to find the top playing clients, lessons learned and so on... but that's not what you asked for

I would pay maximum $6/hour for anything that is outsourced and related to webdesign/programming.

So, it all depends on the details of your offer. What's included?

Sure glad I do NOT take on clients any longer... I have never worked that cheap in my life. Actually I never worked per hour, I always worked per job but it sure never ended up being $6/hour...

Paying those kind of fees you get what you pay for...

James

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nick1123

15 years ago

I think rates vary a lot and it depends on the level of sophistication needed i.e. a basic html site made from a template or a flash based site that requires high paid web designers.

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ecoverartist

15 years ago

As a web designer, I can tell you that you'll save a lot of headache and frustration by looking over the designer's portfolio and getting references from their clients before you put your business in their hands.

For example, I specialize in designs that help improve conversions, whether it's an order, a subscription, a request for more information, etc. I stay away from Flash and all the glitzy "cool" effects and such because they don't fit the style of work I do. Knowing what kind of work your designer specializes in will save you a lot of money (and keep you from wasting time trying to fit a square peg into a round hole!)

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Tracey_Meagher

15 years ago

If you are offering a freelancer a regular stream of work, you may just be able hang on to somebody skilled and talented for the $8 an hour rate. But freelancers working at this rate will always be looking for higher paid jobs and if they're good at what they do, you won't hold onto them for long. You are far better to pay a decent rate to a quality designer and building up a working relationship based on mutual trust.

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GuerrillaIM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Tracey_Meagher

If you are offering a freelancer a regular stream of work, you may just be able hang on to somebody skilled and talented for the $8 an hour rate. But freelancers working at this rate will always be looking for higher paid jobs and if they're good at what they do, you won't hold onto them for long. You are far better to pay a decent rate to a quality designer and building up a working relationship based on mutual trust.

I had an office in the Phillipines and $8/hour for a decent guy is still very cheap. If you have an established office over there with good health program and security then you can get someone good for this rate but on a freelance basis there is a lot of work out there for a higher rate (even more so since the recession) so it will be hard to keep someone at this rate. Don't get me wrong, you can get someone to work for $3 an hour, but there will be a reason somewhere.

(As a side note Philippines is great for programmers but not so good for designers. I always use india for design work and have always been happy).

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Nathan Denton

15 years ago

Originally Posted by GuerrillaIM

I had an office in the Phillipines and $8/hour for a decent guy is still very cheap. If you have an established office over there with good health program and security then you can get someone good for this rate but on a freelance basis there is a lot of work out there for a higher rate (even more so since the recession) so it will be hard to keep someone at this rate. Don't get me wrong, you can get someone to work for $3 an hour, but there will be a reason somewhere.

(As a side note Philippines is great for programmers but not so good for designers. I always use india for design work and have always been happy).

Knowing the programming, java, PHP etc is a much more difficult task then putting a HTML page together I would gladly pay more for a qualified outsourcer.

Thanks for the tip about the Phillipines. I knew they had specialised skills and it is good to know others have had sound experiences using them. How big was your operation for it to require a dedicated office? I suppose the costs of operating in an Asian country would be signifcantly lower than a developed nation such as the US or Australia.

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GuerrillaIM

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Nathan Denton

Knowing the programming, java, PHP etc is a much more difficult task then putting a HTML page together I would gladly pay more for a qualified outsourcer.

Thanks for the tip about the Phillipines. I knew they had specialised skills and it is good to know others have had sound experiences using them. How big was your operation for it to require a dedicated office? I suppose the costs of operating in an Asian country would be signifcantly lower than a developed nation such as the US or Australia.

It was a small operation as I had to keep it under the radar. To register a company properly would have cost me an investment of £100,000.

Being a westerner going to Manila was a big culture shock. I didn't ever get used to it but I wasn't there too long as I had someone to manage the office.

The thing about the third world is you can get someone to work for you for $3/day but they will be uneducted. There is a big divide in the third world and they put a lot more social importance on level of education. Well educated an experienced people over there still make a fairly decent wage. An experienced and skilled programmer in the uk will earn $80,000 a year. In the philippines it would be more like $25,000-$30,000 so its a good saving for the quality of the work you get.

IBM closed down recently over there making 60,000 unemployed so I am not sure what the climate is like there now but before it was very easy for developers to switch and change jobs. You can't exploit a workforce where good developers are in demand. If you pay them too little and they are good, someone will poach them off you.

That is why I say paying those rates is dangerous because you will either get someone who can't get the beter paid jobs, or will leave you stranded as soon as something better comes along.

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Manfred Ekblad

15 years ago

Originally Posted by GuerrillaIM

That is why I say paying those rates is dangerous because you will either get someone who can't get the beter paid jobs, or will leave you stranded as soon as something better comes along.

Yes, it is dangerous if you don't find the right person. It depends a great deal on who you work with and recruiting the right person is the key. Some will work for $6, some for $20

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Dan Grossman

15 years ago

I pay about $500 per page.

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legednary11

15 years ago

$6 an hour for webdesigner, lol u must be running some poor guy dry, if your talking about jsut a design pds then okay but if your talking about fully coding the site as well... actually last job i did i was paid $60 for the design (took me 3 hours) and then coding it was another $60 and that was a basic 3page css website but hey maybe im expensive but check out my sinnerslingerie.... i know how to style it up... lol [and i dont work by hours i work a single static payment, if i misjudge the time it takes, shame on me]

You should shop around the net looking on designers websites and look for designs that are close to what you want, then once you have this idea set youll be able to getmuch better designs out of your designer and youll lower the time he spends making a theme and thus cut your costs...

I also agree you shoudl learn basic coding, i have a few clients that have me do $10 jobs where i simply change the wording of hyperlinks ... carnt complain

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Nathan Denton

15 years ago

I believe in paying people what they are worth, and then some if they overdeliver. As the old saying goes...if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. Talent can be hard to come by and once you find yourself a competent and reliable outsourcer it would be a good idea to try and hang onto them.

As far as $6 per hour goes that is rather low. I would be paying that for some basic admin related work such as forwarding emails or changing web links.

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Darth Executor

15 years ago

I wouldn't pay much, but that's because I can put it together myself and more likely I'd just needs some graphics (if I'm trying to make it look pretty). The main think I'd look for if I was outsourcing web design would be placement of stuff on the page (IE: sales button, opt-in form). I'd pay considerably more for someone knowledgeable in these areas than I'd pay for someone who can make a pretty site (being pretty and making money are two different things) in most situations. Only exception is if I was advertising my own media product (unrelated to business or even most serious subjects). Say, a homebrew video game.

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Nathan Denton

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Darth Executor

I wouldn't pay much, but that's because I can put it together myself and more likely I'd just needs some graphics (if I'm trying to make it look pretty). The main think I'd look for if I was outsourcing web design would be placement of stuff on the page (IE: sales button, opt-in form). I'd pay considerably more for someone knowledgeable in these areas than I'd pay for someone who can make a pretty site (being pretty and making money are two different things) in most situations. Only exception is if I was advertising my own media product (unrelated to business or even most serious subjects). Say, a homebrew video game.

Fair point. In my situation I would provide the designer with full instructions on where to place all those elements therefore the costs should be much less. But yes, if a designer has that knowledge to advise on those things then you would pay them more.

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Marcel Hartmann

15 years ago

As another poster mentioned, $6 an hour is a LOT of money for some people in less developed nations. If they spend their waking lives doing this stuff, they're probably very good.

You can pay low. Just get samples of their work and make sure you can communicate what you want.

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Nathan Denton

15 years ago

Fair call Guerilla - the cost savings are immense. The project I have in mind is on a much smaller scale so it will probably be suited to designers from India or another similar Asian country. I have had a good experience with an Indonesian graphic designer in the past, very quick and professional.

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ecoverbox

15 years ago

It really depends on the following factors:

1. The Nature of your project. For eg the prices would vary a lot to have Minisite design compared to WP design or Joomla Design

2. The Quality of the design you need.

3. The amount of time the designer is going to spend on your projects

Beware- Many freelancer are "Web Designer" ie they only do basic template and have limited photoshop skill and knowledge. Good graphic designers have experience in creating posters,CD , book covers etc. For these designers, the quality is much better and they can create much nicer website templates !

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Manfred Ekblad

15 years ago

Information is crucial to understand the outsourcing business.

If you search for "kelly salary guide 2009" (without quotes) on google, you'll find some info about salaries in different countries.

Good luck with your outsourcing business!

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HenryEspinosa

15 years ago

I used to have my previous sites outsourced to India for about $500 a site...

Now I just use a service called SBI and do it myself so I can have a problem fixed instanteously. Although, it all depends on what features you want for the site....

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prasid

15 years ago

Hello,

Thanks for posting your interest. We are 10 years old end to end web solution company. Please have a look at out company website at
wisitech dot com

Some of the design we have done are,

I look forward to hearing from you.

Warm Regards
Prasid

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phil.wheatley

15 years ago

Look up Darrin Cooper on this forum, he did a GREAT site for me, wordpress based for less than 300 bucks.

Phil

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InternetM39482

15 years ago

I've worked with several designers and have found some real gems in almost all budgets. Currently, I'd recommend James McDonald from Flockey.com. He takes around $350 per page but is awesome!

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How much would you pay for outsourced web design?

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