Does my email address scream "Sucker"?

[wisecrone333]

Why is it do you think that some people just can't be honest with what they are doing? Don't they realize they can bring people down big time?

I am sorry if I seem a little upset but I have just spent yet another hour on the phone with a woman from England this time who was offering a free coaching session for an hour to help newbies get their internet business off the ground. She had explained in her promo email that her time was worth $1000 an hour but went on to say that because she was doing so well she wanted to give something back to a select group of newbies in the form of one free session.

Now I will give her her due - she did tell me at the begining of the conversation that she would try to sell me something at the end and i felt that was fine - I was under no obligation to buy but of course I felt that I would have gleaned some important little bits of information that would help me anyway, and if that information was valuable well of course I would consider her deal.

Well she was good, I mean really good. She had a prepared script and she led me like a lamb to the slaughter - asking me about my dreams, my niche, asking me to layout a course i could see myself doing online, really helping me get into the whole thing about what I could with my business online - I felt so good that it wasn't until the call only had ten minutes to go that she started talking sales talk and I realized that she had not actually given me any information at all apart from what she could teach me in the future - she went from being a mentor to a sales woman in five seconds flat.

Should I have expected it - the same thing happened to me last week as well. Am I that naive because when somebody tells me they want to help me and they will give an hour to me for free, that i believe them? Did I miss something in the jargon of "helping others', giving back and all of that stuff. When people say they are giving something and helping others is that just this giant con that I don't know about?

I have tried to be very restrained in this post but the reason why I am writing it at all is because I know there are a lot of newbies on the list who like me are going to look to those who have succeeded for some little gems of wisdom. I have also seen first hand how great this online community is in supporting others - you only have to look at the thread about Michael to realize that. And I have tried to do my little bit too - I am only new, but I have given advice and support where I can because that is what I believe a community is all about - don't the same rules apply outside of the warrior forum?

You notice that I haven't used the womans name or identifying site details at all - that is because despite the fact that I feel like she punched me in the chest when she told me her help was actually going to cost me more than $10,000USD and I looked through my notes and realized she hadn't given me one piece of information I didn't already know from reading the posts here, I am still a decent person and I don't think it is right to be rude about other people. But what she didn't realize and probably never will is that when you encourage a person to dream and dream big, and then you pull it away from them in ten seconds flat, that the pain and the disappointment is truly hard to deal with - I felt physically sick after that call.

I know we are all in this to make money - I don't have a problem with anyone coming along and asking me if they can give me a sales pitch - hey I will listen - but when somebody comes along instead in the guise of a mentor who ends up doing the sucker more harm than good I just don't think that is right.

That's my two cents worth. Thank you if you have managed to read this far, I appreciate it.

Lisa

[Mark McClure]

Lisa,

I feel your pain - the olde bait and switch in action?

These words of yours seemed to stand out:

"...and I looked through my notes and realized she hadn't given me one piece of information I didn't already know from reading the posts here,"

There's a treasure trove of free info here on WF.

[tessmac9708]

Good Post.

You have highlighted what I consider is the one big thing that taints Internet Marketing in the Make Money Online niche.

Selling big dreams to desperate people!

Give people hope to get themselves out of a desperate situation. Build them up to really believe that when they invest ( buy ) your product, they will be on their way to making not only enough money to survive, but to start to fullfill thier dreams and ambitions, not only for themselves, but for thier loved ones.

Then throw in a load of testimonials from genuine looking people who tell you how they have transformed their desperate lives and are now living the dream of finacial security. And they had been searching for years until they found your site/system/programme.

The trouble with this is that you can relate to this....Its actually your story....

Now you're on such a high that all your worries seem to melt away, you start to believe that finally you have found "The Secret"

The you buy or INVEST what little money you may have, and then guess what happens......

You go from a massive high to a massive low.

Cruel and life draining.

Whats the solution?

Copywriters and site owners who use these tactics should be held accountable. Yes I realise that we all want to sell something, but there must be accountability in some of the outrageous claims that so many IM'ers make in thier sales pitch.

Criminal.

Graham

[Will Edwards]

Interesting to hear your views. So, you didn't think that by doing what you said ...

Originally Posted by wisecrone333

... asking me about my dreams, my niche, asking me to layout a course i could see myself doing online, really helping me get into the whole thing about what I could with my business online ...

... that she delivered any value.

That's probably because you were looking for the 'how' and she was talking about the 'what'. Still my friend, with reflection, you may find some value in that conversation especially if it opened your eyes to possibilities.

Don't be discouraged, because the 'how' can be learned right here at WF.

Keep reading, stay motivated and begin to apply what you learn here and you will be amazed at what can happen.

And good luck!

Will

[ExRat]

Hi wisecrone333,

Some great lessons for you here - if you want them.

Excuse my honesty/bluntness/directness - but if what you say is true, then you should appreciate it.

Don't they realize they can bring people down big time?

Yes. But they don't care. Compare this with experiences where people 'bring you down' for no benefit to them, except for the pleasure of doing so. Solution - resolve to never let other people bring you down, as much as is possible - especially in business. Develop rhino-skin.

I have just spent yet another hour on the phone

'Yet another hour.' How many times are you going to keep looking for others to give you the 'keys' before you realise that only you can do this yourself, because you are the only person who really cares enough about yourself and your progression?

Now I will give her her due - she did tell me at the begining of the conversation that she would try to sell me something at the end and i felt that was fine - I was under no obligation to buy but of course I felt that I would have gleaned some important little bits of information that would help me anyway, and if that information was valuable well of course I would consider her deal.

So she's not the worst of the worst out there. If you keep looking, you WILL find them - much worse. What's the lesson? Your assumption that you might glean something useful from a thinly disguised sales pitch was incorrect.

You went into this from the start in order to reject the pitch, but to glean as much for free as possible. She knew this and bluffed you back. She won. Who are you really angry/upset with - yourself or her?

Well she was good, I mean really good. She had a prepared script and she led me like a lamb to the slaughter

You don't say. What exactly did you expect?

I felt so good that it wasn't until the call only had ten minutes to go that she started talking sales talk and I realized that she had not actually given me any information at all

If you really, truly want to learn about business, sales and marketing you'll focus on what you said above (I bolded it.)

You are possibly searching for a 'feel-good' factor. Many people are. But it won't make you rich, just someone else. The only feel-good feeling you should focus on is the one you get from succeeding. This doesn't come from expecting others to help you, it comes directly from helping yourself.

People are making fortunes every day because they truly understand the psychology of people 'looking for a feel-good feeling.' I'm not just talking internet marketers - I'm talking everyone - doctors, politicians, shopkeepers, manufacturers, ministers, personal fitness instructors - the list is absolutely endless. Study hard (as if your life depended on it) and understand this (deeply) and the benefits are two-fold. Think about it. It will help you to prosper and to avoid pain.

Should I have expected it

You've already answered this earlier on - yes, you should.

Am I that naive because when somebody tells me they want to help me and they will give an hour to me for free, that i believe them?

Of course. But the majority of people start out like this. You are not abnormal whatsoever. People who succeed in business ARE abnormal in some ways because they overcome their naivety and they learn to focus on what matters, and don't go looking for the feel-good factor from others - they become self-sufficient in this area. It's a pre-requisite to success in all areas of life - depend on others and you will end up with this feeling over and over. Some criticise this hard-nosed approach and call it cynicism. It can be - but you must find the right balance yourself.

Did I miss something in the jargon of "helping others', giving back and all of that stuff. When people say they are giving something and helping others is that just this giant con that I don't know about?

Not 100% of the time, no. But close to 99% of the time - yes! This is business. Can you live with that?

A child spends the early part of it's life making you feel that they simply enjoy spending time with you as their parent - which they often do.

Once they become an adult, they still tell you that they enjoy spending their time with you, but often it's a thinly-veiled disguise for getting close enough to ask you for something. Do you despise and reject them for demonstrating that they are now capable of surviving in this world? Or do you accept that this is exactly what you spent all those years nurturing them for? Life is tough. It has to be or evolution will fail. We would not be here if our ancestors had not developed (partly) cold, mean hearts in order to survive. If they hadn't, those who did would have enslaved, abused or eaten them.

I have also seen first hand how great this online community is in supporting others

...and hopefully you will not misconstrue my words and you will see them as possibly the kindest words that will be said to you here. Harsh, but kind.

but I have given advice and support where I can because that is what I believe a community is all about - don't the same rules apply outside of the warrior forum?

For heaven's sake - NO! And don't forget this is a community, BUT it's a community of successful marketers/business people. It's not a tribe surviving together in a village. It's a worldwide community of people, many of them anonymous, where some will make alliances, some will break them, and some will take what they can and run - giving nothing. It's a microcosm of the world. Is the world a really nice place, overflowing with altruism? You decide.

she hadn't given me one piece of information I didn't already know from reading the posts here

Another lesson. So - don't do it again! She had NOTHING to offer you, but pretended she did. Learn to look for the signs. Don't waste your time on unlikely dreams, make your OWN dream real and guard it like a well-trained, competent, gnarly dog!

the pain and the disappointment is truly hard to deal with - I felt physically sick after that call.

You'll feel even worse if you fail in business and have to go and get a job. So learn the lessons quick.

I know we are all in this to make money - I don't have a problem with anyone coming along and asking me if they can give me a sales pitch - hey I will listen - but when somebody comes along instead in the guise of a mentor who ends up doing the sucker more harm than good I just don't think that is right.

This is probably the single most important part of your post.

You are suggesting that you want the world to be direct, straight, honest, candid and 1000 other things that it is NEVER going to be.

This is not just about business. This is about human nature, psychology etc.

Think about it like this - is your business plan to go out there and be 100% honest and direct and candid about everything you try and sell?

If so, how are you going to compete? Because hardly anyone who takes this approach succeeds. As I said, it's not just business. It's everything.

EG - dating.

Try successfully dating by being brutally honest. You will FAIL epically.

You are looking for the easy route, the 'touchy-feely' 'I can just be myself' and expect everyone else to follow suit route. Good luck with that.

So what's the solution? Do you have to be dishonest, sneaky, tricky, slimy etc?

Of course not. Everything is not black and white.

Get yourself some paperback books (nice and cheap but the best) on -

Winning, psychology, persuasion, buying/selling, business, success, mindset, wealth creation, etc

You need to understand the game, come to terms with the game, develop your unique approach to the game - before playing the game. Unless you enjoy getting burnt (losing the game), which you have explained that you don't.

Look at it this way - if it was easy and everyone could do it - there would be no-one willing to take a job. Market forces dictate that this is not possible.

The strong will prosper, the weak will work for the strong, thus making them stronger. Now which do you prefer?

Thank you if you have managed to read this far, I appreciate it.

I gave you 15 minutes of my time (free) and my best answer too. Let's see if you (and others) know REAL help when they see it.

Also, I took a look at one of your websites in your sig (ebay secret - no selling.)

Now, because I have experience, I know the name of the other person on your website and how you ended up with that page. BUT -

To someone who doesn't have experience, your page is set up in a way that suggests to them that YOU are regularly earning over $1000 a day from eBay (RE - your headline.)

There are many other aspects of that page which are misleading, in the same way that the person you have written about misled you.

There is a saying about 'what's good for the goose is good for the gander.'

I hope this helps.

[profitsonline]

I have been offered many free half & one hour calls that usually comes packaged with a product that one of the guru's are selling. I always opt not to take them up on it.

I had a similar experience to what you are describing only this time it involved someone from USA trying to sell me on a 7 day work shop which involved traveling to Miami and cost $15,000 all up.

I make a decent living online and all from what I have learnt from this forum and a couple of others that I visit. You will find that all you need to succeed online is found here on this forum. If you are not a War Room member I would recommend it. I spent about a week rummaging through there and found every thing that I need.

[wisecrone333]

Firstly thank you to everyone who replied - I appreciate it and the comments given

To Mark - yes I know and thank you

To Graham - You expressed exactly how I felt and said it so much better - thank you

To Will - My husband said the same thing and I know you are both right in that respect - thank you too

To ExRat - your byline describes you exactly - thank you for daring to be different. I read through your lengthy post and I genuinely appreciate the comments you made - you are right about the link in my sig file - I am pulling that page down and thank you for pointing out my hypocrisy. You see perhaps I am a bit older than most of you - perhaps I do live in a cheery colored world, but I spent ten years as a battered wife and almost died as a result - now that shouldn't have any bearing on how I run a business but it does - you see if I can't make it by being honest, then I would rather fail - you were right to pull me up about my first ever affiliate venture and I have learned from tonights little lesson that I will sell my own products that I can be truthful about. I am not critical about what you have said, and I honestly do appreciate that you took the time to go through all of my message and answer each point, which I know is time consuming. Thank you so much for sharing that much and for setting me straight about where I want to go Incidentally you are not going to believe it but I have a degree in psychology and six kids aged between 15 and 22 - there is not a lot I don't know about manipulation thanks to them.

I am living proof of what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I will succeed online because anything else is not an option - its that simple. Once again I thank everybody who took the time to reply - I do feel a lot more enthused about where I am going to go from here.

Best wishes
Lisa

[wisecrone333]

Thankyou profitsonline - I understand I have to have been a member here for a while before allowed access to the war room - but I will suss out what that entails - thank you for your support and suggestion
Lisa

[ExRat]

Hi Lisa,

Ace!

I noticed that you were probably my senior and asked myself if my advice was still relevant - I decided it was.

You see, I have my 13 year old son with me - he's not always here (usually with his mum), but is for a little while.

As no-one answered my point straight away, I decided instead to show him your post and my response and to discuss the whole thing.

One of the end results was that we decided to see how you replied. I am aware that I don't sugar-coat my advice, and this often draws responses that miss the point and focus on anything I say that seems to be too cutting.

We are both delighted that you got the point of the message!

I don't necessarily think that you should take your site down. You could just adjust a few words here and there (if you are allowed to).

I DO think that it is a good idea to tailor your approach to suit yourself in terms of being straight with people. BUT I do also think that you should consider also using your mental toughness (which you obviously have, to have survived) in a way that is acceptable, and that you should be proud of it, and use this as a way to help develop the mental toughness of your 'students'/readers.

I don't think that we should shy away from the fact that business can be cut-throat, and that it's a dog-eat-dog world. I think that instead, we should be proud of the fact that ordinary, nice, decent, honest people can set their stall out in their OWN way, BUT also compete with the rest of them out there by having an element of toughness - EG -

I am living proof of what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I will succeed online because anything else is not an option - its that simple.

What also tickled me is that I have a client who's previous career was as a psychologist and his current career involves elements of it. He has learnt some things from me too, and I have never been trained in that area, except for self-taught stuff.

I spent ten years as a battered wife and almost died as a result - now that shouldn't have any bearing on how I run a business but it does

Ahem. You and I both know that it has a massive bearing on how you will run your business. I didn't just learn from books myself.

perhaps I do live in a cheery colored world

Me too! It's the only place to be. But to keep it cheery, someone has to keep one eye on everyone else so that they don't paint it black.

Thanks for the excellent reply Lisa. Please don't tear down your site - that was not my point or my aim. I know that Sara's (ummm, Tony's) products are very good - I have many of them myself.

PS I've been to rural NZ and it rocks - as do Kiwis! Christchurch was my favourite city/town - crazy place.

[wisecrone333]

"What also tickled me is that I have a client who's previous career was as a psychologist and his current career involves elements of it. He has learnt some things from me too, and I have never been trained in that area, except for self-taught stuff."

ExRat - you missed your calling Thanks again to you and your son

Lisa