Do you contribute to this problem?

33 replies
A few minutes ago I looked at the first page of results for the main forum of the WF. There were 55 threads on the first page....and 11 of those were OLD, BUMPED THREADS.

In most of them the new post that "bumped" the thread was 2 words at least or 2 lines at most - and no more. This hasn't been a big problem in the past as a few threads have always been bumped here and there. However, when 1/5 of the threads on the first page are from 2009-2013...it is not a good sign.

Unless you are a spammer or only interested in getting what you think are "links" (they are no follow, by the way) - you don't help yourself by posting helpful comments in threads from 2009 and 2012 and 2013.

The people bumping the threads are trying to increase post count - get links seen - slip in a promotion where they think mods won't notice. Thing is - when other members jump in to add more posts....it makes it harder for the mods to see the spam.

Wish there were a way to auto-lock all threads over 12-24 months old. If someone had something valuable to post in an old thread (doubtful) they could ask a mod to re-open the thread. I doubt many would be re-opened.

Pick up soapbox and exit stage right....thank you for your applause....

kay
#contribute #problem
  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    I noticed that yesterday. One particular newbie resurrecting old threads. I think it's part of their upcoming WSO promotion.

    Do you contribute to this problem?
    Unfortunately, I have...
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  • Profile picture of the author PaulSch
    I too have noticed this trend today, and have reported one member for repeatedly doing it. However, so far nothing has been done, but with the amount of spam about new phones, live streaming and other useless products flying around today I suppose the mods are being kept rather busy.
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  • Profile picture of the author HN
    Banned
    Wouldn't it be a possible to automatically lock threads which are
    older than a year
    and 3 months since the last post?

    Or make it a bit more complicated and only allow the thread to be revived by OP or other members who have posted before. Shouldn't be difficult. About 5 minutes to write the code.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I know nothing about coding - but seems it should be possible to lock or do something similar to old threads.

      Could there be a script or something that is like a "soft lock" - sounds stupid even to me. What I'm thinking is something that would appear as a "warning" or "alert" when an old thread is bumped....maybe a flashing symbol to the left of the posts.

      I can't imagine mods have time to sort through every old thread. I have noticed when spam/scam bumped are reported - those may be deleted but the posts following (by those who didn't notice the date) are left. Might be better to lock those threads but that isn't the practice now.

      Tom - I agree and we've all posted in old threads that had taken on new life. Sometimes if makes sense.

      However, they get bumped deliberately by someone who SEARCHED for them. A 2009 or 2012 thread doesn't just "pop up" - someone has to dig for it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom Addams
    Terrific post, Kay. I'll be sure to bump it in 2020! (J/K). I think you hit the reasons for post bumping on the head. The only other reason that comes to mind is pure accident. I remember this happening to myself at least once. I simply assume - wrongly of course - that all threads on the current page are new and it never occurs to me to check out the date of the original post. So in those instances, I believe mistakes are the culprit. Might actually be an idea to sticky this thread or for an admin to at least make one.

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    • Profile picture of the author iangh
      Originally Posted by Tom Addams View Post

      Terrific post, Kay. I'll be sure to bump it in 2020! (J/K). I think you hit the reasons for post bumping on the head. The only other reason that comes to mind is pure accident. I remember this happening to myself at least once. I simply assume - wrongly of course - that all threads on the current page are new and it never occurs to me to check out the date of the original post. So in those instances, I believe mistakes are the culprit. Might actually be an idea to sticky this thread or for an admin to at least make one.

      - Tom
      I too am guilty of presuming the top active posts are new. Definitely a great educational post.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom Addams
    It's been a while since I worked on the admin side of a vBulletin forum, but I remember an add-on for auto-locking threads after a set X number of days. It's possible this feature is now standard. WF admin will know.

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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I see the point and agree to the extent that people bump threads for sig exposure or other fairly obvious reasons.

    However, we are constantly telling newcomers to use the search button to find out how to make $100 a day or what mistakes people make when starting out or how to build a list or whatever.

    So Joe Newbie gets told to search for his information (don't bother us) so he does. Yet those threads have been locked. He found information but he's not sure that it really applies to HIS situation 100%. He can't post in the old thread because now it is locked. If he posts a new thread he's told off. If an old thread hasn't been locked yet he gets accused of bumping threads and even reported for doing so by some. So what is he to do?

    Where is the balance between this situation and the pure nonsense that Kay is talking about?

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author quadagon
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      I see the point and agree to the extent that people bump threads for sig exposure or other fairly obvious reasons.

      However, we are constantly telling newcomers to use the search button to find out how to make $100 a day or what mistakes people make when starting out or how to build a list or whatever.

      So Joe Newbie gets told to search for his information (don't bother us) so he does. Yet those threads have been locked. He found information but he's not sure that it really applies to HIS situation 100%. He can't post in the old thread because now it is locked. If he posts a new thread he's told off. If an old thread hasn't been locked yet he gets accused of bumping threads and even reported for doing so by some. So what is he to do?

      Where is the balance between this situation and the pure nonsense that Kay is talking about?

      Mark
      Those would be faoir comments Mark if that is what is happening. What's happening though is people are saying

      'I agree'

      And that's it, not adding to the thread or even asking questions. If either of these are done then fair enough.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Good questions, Mark - and I don't know the answers.

      Maybe a solution would be an "archive" section - where threads could be read and searched for and informative/instructional...and couldn't be bumped. If you post in a WSO thread...it doesn't bump the thread. Could that be done for old threads?

      It wouldn't be a real "section" of its own - but archived threads could be denoted with a CLEAR symbol denoting that status.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Good questions, Mark - and I don't know the answers.

        Maybe a solution would be an "archive" section - where threads could be read and searched for and informative/instructional...and couldn't be bumped. If you post in a WSO thread...it doesn't bump the thread. Could that be done for old threads?

        It wouldn't be a real "section" of its own - but archived threads could be denoted with a CLEAR symbol denoting that status.
        We were posting at the same time.

        I just want to add -- I LIKE this idea. Maybe give newbies a copy/paste link they can use in a new thread if they feel the need to continue the conversation?
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      • Profile picture of the author agmccall
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Good questions, Mark - and I don't know the answers.

        Maybe a solution would be an "archive" section - where threads could be read and searched for and informative/instructional...and couldn't be bumped. If you post in a WSO thread...it doesn't bump the thread. Could that be done for old threads?

        It wouldn't be a real "section" of its own - but archived threads could be denoted with a CLEAR symbol denoting that status.
        Like you said in your original post that this is happening more and more, but, not enough that the Mods would be overwhelmed with it. So, Maybe something could be put in place where if a member is posting to an older thread the post gets held in Que for moderation. Then the Mods could determine if the new post contributes or is just a waste of time.

        Remember, some of these older posts are quite good and stand the test of time.

        al
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
      It's a conundrum, for sure.

      I've been guilty of not noticing the dates on posts and responding. In those cases, I'd like to believe that I'm adding value for someone, even if it isn't the OP.

      What gets me is when the original spam post bumping the thread is deleted, and people just start piling on the one-liners. Maybe, instead of removing the entire spam post, just remove the links and such and replace them with a warning. Similar to the way affiliate links in sigs are replaced with a warning.

      On a related note, I'm noticing more and more threads where the poster reaches a solution or decision, announces it in the thread, but the responses (mostly one-liners and borderline promos) just keep rolling in. Mostly responding to the opening post, or even just the subject line. Anything to get that sig seen...
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom Addams
        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        I've been guilty of not noticing the dates on posts and responding. In those cases, I'd like to believe that I'm adding value for someone, even if it isn't the OP.
        I've never seen you do anything but add value, John. I was thinking the other day of that feature Facebook introduced where we can make a calendar of our posts throughout the past year. vBulletin should introduce a similar add-on, or perhaps some bright spark can do it, where past posts can be downloaded in PDF form, perhaps based over a week, a month, a year, or whatever date the downloader would like to choose. I imagine it would hurt WSO sales, though! Point of the ramble: you'd be on my list to read.

        Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

        On a related note, I'm noticing more and more threads where the poster reaches a solution or decision, announces it in the thread, but the responses (mostly one-liners and borderline promos) just keep rolling in. Mostly responding to the opening post, or even just the subject line. Anything to get that sig seen...
        Yeah. I especially expect the one-liners on other forums, and in fact I've grown very used to them over the years, but they seem decidedly out of place on WF. When I was younger, I honestly wouldn't have posted here. Lots of reasons - predominantly, I wasn't in MMO, and it's of great benefit to be in MMO and post here - but mostly because forums were a water-cooler hangout for me, a place to network, chit-chat, shoot the whatsit, keep tabs on industry news, and not remotely a place where I'd get into meaningful discussions, educate people where I could, or in many ways hope to strengthen a brand. I feel differently now, and as such tend to avoid (most of the time) those other forums. It's a hard task for mods to stamp out the silliness, I'll say, but not insurmountable.

        - Tom
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  • Profile picture of the author agmccall
    This is one of those threads that you would think the Mods would participate in, but, as usual just silence from that end

    al
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom Addams
    I think this is the solution:

    Admin sets threads to lock after, for example, 90 days. Or whatever set number of days you think is appropriate. This would result in fresh threads having their due level of visibility.

    Mark brings up excellent points, as does quadagon. If admin were to employ my measures above, I believe the situation would still work nicely. Joe Newbie is asked to search and read past threads. He finds suitable threads. He reads and absorbs and if he has questions he can create new threads which address his questions and cite where his questions originated.

    We will still have the problem of the same questions being asked - it will never go away - but at least those questions, when given new threads, can be answered with current information. The real problem with old threads being bumped is the obsolescence, in many cases, of their information. To our more experienced members, the bumping is merely irksome; to the newbies, bumped threads, potentially home to dead as a Dodo information, is potentially harmful, in terms of their education.

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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Locking threads automatically would totally screw up how I run the High Voltage Forum. I don't want a million threads about the same topic and prefer to have fewer, but more complete threads. I may not post on a thread for a year, but if the topic needs updating will want to post on it in the future.


    I much prefer that some old threads are bumped rather than to close a discussion and have multiple new threads pop up. Maybe someone wants to ask if a method is still viable?


    The problem is with the bumpers not the threads. Deal with the bumpers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom Addams
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Locking threads automatically would totally screw up how I run the High Voltage Forum. I don't want a million threads about the same topic and prefer to have fewer, but more complete threads. I may not post on a thread for a year, but if the topic needs updating will want to post on it in the future.


      I much prefer that some old threads are bumped rather than to close a discussion and have multiple new threads pop up. Maybe someone wants to ask if a method is still viable?


      The problem is with the bumpers not the threads. Deal with the bumpers.
      I see it a bit like a bookstore. Every year the Writer's and Artists Yearbook is released and in it you'll find invaluable, current, and often timely resources for the reader. A book store that might plonk these books on their shelves will, each year, update their shelves with the book for that year: 2014, 2015, 2016, and so forth. And the reason is due to the mentioned elements of the information, which is, relevant to this point, current and timely for a designated year.

      Does the same thing apply to a forum, specifically High Voltage? I think so. Video marketing, I hardly need to tell you of all people, is among the fastest changing areas of internet marketing, very much a dynamic medium where fast obsolescence is not only the norm but commonly expected, at least by more experienced practitioners. I think if threads are set to auto-lock, after whatever agreed number of days, and when those topics need to be readdressed, people posting new threads on those subjects can cite relevant threads and yet bring about current and often timely discussion in fresh threads.

      It would limit the danger of newbies making horrendous errors by adopting outdated information; it would keep current and timely the information presented with most visibility; and it would perhaps encourage deeper and more efficient discussions, since the prior threads would somewhat work as foundations for ongoing discourse.

      I'm no longer a professional vBulletin owner. Have been out of the game quite some years. So - the above? Really just me thinking the logic through. Upshot: it's possible there are holes in my reasoning, so I'm not unwilling to hear a different point of view; in fact, I'd welcome it.

      Quick Edit: I do see the problem with HV though, Kurt. If you were to set the auto-lock to the wrong number of days, you'd end up with a wall of locked threads on page one. Which, and I totally agree here, would potentially kill HV. The solution I think would be to extend the number of days to an appropriate level as well as boost activity in HV.

      - Tom
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by Tom Addams View Post

        I see it a bit like a bookstore. Every year the Writer's and Artists Yearbook is released and in it you'll find invaluable, current, and often timely resources for the reader. A book store that might plonk these books on their shelves will, each year, update their shelves with the book for that year: 2014, 2015, 2016, and so forth. And the reason is due to the mentioned elements of the information, which is, relevant to this point, current and timely for a designated year.

        Does the same thing apply to a forum, specifically High Voltage? I think so. Video marketing, I hardly need to tell you of all people, is among the fastest changing areas of internet marketing, very much a dynamic medium where fast obsolescence is not only the norm but commonly expected, at least by more experienced practitioners. I think if threads are set to auto-lock, after whatever agreed number of days, and when those topics need to be readdressed, people posting new threads on those subjects can cite relevant threads and yet bring about current and often timely discussion in fresh threads.

        It would limit the danger of newbies making horrendous errors by adopting outdated information; it would keep current and timely the information presented with most visibility; and it would perhaps encourage deeper and more efficient discussions, since the prior threads would somewhat work as foundations for ongoing discourse.

        I'm no longer a professional vBulletin owner. Have been out of the game quite some years. So - the above? Really just me thinking the logic through. Upshot: it's possible there are holes in my reasoning, so I'm not unwilling to hear a different point of view; in fact, I'd welcome it.

        - Tom
        Locking a thread does not prevent a newbie from reading it or from in being listed in the Google index. Keeping it open allows the newbie to ask about the info.


        Also, not all resources are timely. While some aspects of video marketing, such as Youtube ranking and marketing, does change other things don't. And any updates to things like YT marketing can be made on an open thread.


        Having multiple threads about the same topic only clutters a forum and makes a particular topic hard to follow while also drowning out every other thread. If each of 100 topics has 20 threads about it, that's 2000 threads instead of 100.


        Again, the threads aren't the issue. The bumpers are. Deal with the bumpers.
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        • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post


          Having multiple threads about the same topic only clutters a forum
          So does a dozen threads from 2008
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom Addams
          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Locking a thread does not prevent a newbie from reading it or from in being listed in the Google index. Keeping it open allows the newbie to ask about the info.
          I agree. Which is why I say it would "limit the danger of newbies making horrendous errors by adopting outdated information" and not out-and-out stamp it from existence. I would guess that the majority of thread traffic is derived from concurrent users viewing and visiting threads on the first page of each forum. So what we're talking about here is a mere limiting of a problem. A complete solution is impossible, since we would have to delete threads, which would not only cripple you in terms of SEO but as a resource in sum, since much information in those older threads is of course still valid and current.


          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Also, not all resources are timely. While some aspects of video marketing, such as Youtube ranking and marketing, does change other things don't. And any updates to things like YT marketing can be made on an open thread.
          I agree with what you say about video marketing: some areas are changing, others remain the same, month to month. The intention is not to dispel information from all knowledge and access, though, which would be the case if we deleted threads; it's merely to avoid the problems associated with outdated information being bumped and help to promote up-to-date discussions. Non-changing elements can still be discussed and read about. The intention is only to limit problems and encourage more relevant discussions, even when discussing things of a non-changing nature.


          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Having multiple threads about the same topic only clutters a forum and makes a particular topic hard to follow while also drowning out every other thread. If each of 100 topics has 20 threads about it, that's 2000 threads instead of 100.
          We have this already. Especially here on Main. I think the solution boils down to X: how many days until a thread is locked? I think somewhere an equilibrium can be reached, where we're not getting a gazillion threads about the same topic, or not, more precisely, promoting more of it, and where the benefits of locked threads can be enjoyed. I do see your point, though, Kurt. The difference between you and I is that you are currently in the trenches, and I've been out of them for a good few years. In all frankness, the points I'm making are my initial thoughts. It's quite likely I could review this thread in a week and think, "Yep. I'm with Kurt here."


          Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

          Again, the threads aren't the issue. The bumpers are. Deal with the bumpers.
          Agree wholeheartedly that bumpers should be dealt with; with the caveat that certain bumpers (like myself and John, for instance, who never knowingly bump) will be treated fairly. A solution to this problem requires a great deal of thought, that's for sure.

          - Tom
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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Tom Addams View Post

            Agree wholeheartedly that bumpers should be dealt with; with the caveat that certain bumpers (like myself and John, for instance) who didn't knowingly do so will be treated fairly. A solution to this problem requires a great deal of thought, that's for sure.

            - Tom
            And this is part of my point. The age of the thread isn't the issue. It's the quality of the new posts on that thread that is.


            Also consider that when I respond to a certain poster I am not necessarily only considering that single poster. My response is often intended for other people that may read the post.


            Just because a thread is bumped for BS reasons doesn't mean we have to post BS comments, regardless of how old a thread is. You and John make many helpful posts and personally I don't care how old the thread is to read what you and John may have to say.


            A good post is a good post. I have no problem with a good post on a thread that was bumped for questionable reasons. It's the bad posts I have an issue with, and they are made on old and new threads.
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom Addams
              Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

              And this is part of my point. The age of the thread isn't the issue. It's the quality of the new posts on that thread that is.


              Also consider that when I respond to a certain poster I am not necessarily only considering that single poster. My response is often intended for other people that may read the post.


              Just because a thread is bumped for BS reasons doesn't mean we have to post BS comments, regardless of how old a thread is. You and John make many helpful posts and personally I don't care how old the thread is to read what you and John may have to say.


              A good post is a good post. I have no problem with a good post on a thread that was bumped for questionable reasons. It's the bad posts I have an issue with, and they are made on old and new threads.
              Great points, Kurt - and thanks a lot for the compliments, too. What I'll say about my ideas above is this: I'm not fond of "needing" to lock threads. Not to be political or anything, but it feels wrong on many levels. Reminds me of Spock (and no I'm not a Trekkie, don't throw tomatoes), who acts logically, well, according to his own perspective of logic, but quite often loses touch with the human element. So, in retrospect, thinking about it (as I mentioned I might need to do), I would much rather your solution was workable. I'm compelled by the logic of my suggested approach; but enticed, quite a lot more, having digested your replies, with the humanity inherent in yours.

              Okay.

              (You could probably hear the cogs turning all the way across the pond.)

              How about - rigid regulation of bumping.

              I made comment earlier of how I believed the locking could address certain problems:

              "It would limit the danger of newbies making horrendous errors by adopting outdated information; it would keep current and timely the information presented with most visibility; and it would perhaps encourage deeper and more efficient discussions, since the prior threads would somewhat work as foundations for ongoing discourse."

              I think it would be terrific if - via regulation and moderation - we could keep the threads open and yet still arrive at those mentioned (and needed) solutions.

              And if we all tend to agree here, perhaps we can unanimously work out how to bring about that kind of solution: required regulations, modes of moderation, etc.

              - Tom
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              • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
                Banned
                Originally Posted by Tom Addams View Post

                I'm not fond of "needing" to lock threads. Not to be political or anything, but it feels wrong on many levels.
                If the mods didn't lock threads, the same half a dozen people
                would have all their threads on page one, all the time.
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom Addams
                  Originally Posted by lgibbon View Post

                  If the mods didn't lock threads, the same half a dozen people
                  would have all their threads on page one, all the time.
                  Oh, I certainly understand that some threads need to be locked. Totally agree there. I was referring to the auto-locking suggestion, in which every single thread on the forum was locked after a set number of days. You're exactly right in what you say. Mods need to be on the ball and spot that kind of activity and lock where appropriate. Like you say, you'd have the same names spilled across page one, with likely much more valid info not getting a look in.

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  • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
    Banned
    A lot of the bumpers haven't even got sig files.
    They're just here to disrupt, it's been going on years.
    But in the past, the mods used to delete the recent posts,
    sending the thread back where it came from.
    These days it's far too much trouble for them.
    Not even the ones being reported are being dealt with.
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  • Profile picture of the author Janice Sperry
    Applause Kay...

    Applause to some other good ideas also...

    I knew I had been seeing more for quite awhile but I never would have guessed 11 out of 55. That is just unacceptable if that is the right word for it.

    Accidents happen... Not by the first bumper but surely by some of the repliers. What irks me is that even after someone like Kay posts that it is an old useless thread that was bumped the posts just keep coming. What also irks me is that 99% of the old bumped threads were useless in the first place. A lousy thread in 2008 is still a lousy thread in 2015.

    I like the idea of some kind of archive system especially in the main forum. There are some threads that could manually be kept active like the "All-In-One" threads and "What To Do If Your Desperate".

    It seems to me that the majority of the "bumpers" have nefarious reasons but occasionally there are some newer members that are just not skilled at searching and/or recognizing old information. In the Advanced Search section there is a filter menu to restrict for only newer results. Maybe a short tutorial on searching could be stickied so we could direct newer members there if they need some help.

    Last comment: Every forum has some weaknesses but I hope the Admin understands the gravity of this problem and how it is undermining the quality experience of visiting here.
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  • Profile picture of the author lgibbon
    Banned
    There is of course a simple solution to this,
    set the forum so that a reply doesn't bump a thread.
    Most threads have run their course in a day anyway.
    Most threads that last any longer are because the OP
    has taken 5 days to answer the 5 replies from the threads first hour.
    Anything interesting can be easily bookmarked.
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  • Bump... Guess I'm guilty of it now
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
    Kurt, as the owner/moderator of HV, don't you have any control over whether or not threads in your forum are locked? Could the locking idea be applied to only certain sections, much like the WSO forum where posting does not bump the thread?

    Not trying to be argumentative, because you make good points. Just wondering...
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