If Everyone Here Puts in $5.00 we can get the latest course and share it

[Scott Ames]

I exaggerate but that's what I see going on around the net. "I want XXX course, want to share the cost with me and 3 other guys?"

Personally I don't think that is ethical but I know it happens. I guess it's better than people that order, copy, then refund. Still it's a poverty mentality and I don't think those that get a course this way will use it. {my assumption is ) They are course collectors that's all.

[George Wright]

Hi,

I'm in Scott, $5 on the way.... Just kidding, but that headline had me "wondering" for a moment.

To me this is similar but not exactly the sub. of a thread I started regarding sharing ebooks with friends and family.

Good thought jogger there Scott. You are right, it is done.

Not to dig up my old thread but what about "partners" who want to implement a certain program in their business? Do they buy one course for the "business," or one course for each one who will be using it, including employees who will have to learn the information to implement for their employers?

George Wright

[Easy Cash]

It would be breaking copyright law unless you had it only on 1 computer and everyone read from the same computer.

[darrin_cooper]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with this at all.

Let's take the flip side of your argument for example -- The big time gurus who have existing large lists with partner affiliates. The partner affiliates get a special "Affiliate Deals" and higher percentages vs. the "other" affiliates. Also, they are sometimes given even an advanced look at the product without buying. So, when a big Launch is scheduled, on a certain date, only the specific group MASS BLASTS everyone to purchase their product. And it's like a Round-Robin of Week after week after week of I scratch your back you scratch mine style of marketing.

I can tell you this, without the support of the 20 - 50 "Partner Affiliates" as a group, there would be no way that ANY of these gurus pushing these products would achieve the sales they are saying

Therefore, if it benefits others to purchase the product to simply see the "TRUTH" and pay a lower cost, so be it. To say it's not ethical,
then back what is ethical about gurus all getting together & blasting out the same email trying to get the latest guru affiliate prize?

I think it's a great idea to take what is happening now, is that costs are going up from the "$1997" framework, to now what is happening this: $2,495 & $2700 framework. 20 People who are interested can get a $1997 product for $100. I would be more inclined to connect on a group think basis of $100 & connect w/ people that bought together vs. not being able to even contact customer support or even get the truth from the owner of the product who is never around anyway.
At the end of the day, ETHICS, has nothing to do with it. It's about whether or not the value of what is being offered is worth it.

Originally Posted by Scott Ames

I exaggerate but that's what I see going on around the net. "I want XXX course, want to share the cost with me and 3 other guys?"

Personally I don't think that is ethical but I know it happens. I guess it's better than people that order, copy, then refund. Still it's a poverty mentality and I don't think those that get a course this way will use it. {my assumption is ) They are course collectors that's all.

[entry]

What course do you want to share?

[Ken Strong]

I'd like a new laptop -- if we all put in $5.00 we can share it. We'll just FedEx it around the world every time someone needs to check their email or something.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Scott Ames

I exaggerate but that's what I see going on around the net. "I want XXX course, want to share the cost with me and 3 other guys?"

What's unethical about that? You sell one more copy of your course, where you wouldn't have sold anything... and the people who get it don't use it anyway.

[Jared Alberghini]

Originally Posted by entry

What course do you want to share?

lulz...

What I want to know is this: What course costs $706,175...

(# of Warrior Members: 141,235 X $5)

Must be one hell of a course... I'm in too...

.jrd

P.S. Ken, That's going to be one bad ass laptop for $700k

[Jeremy Kelsall]

My partner Don and I "share" information products that we buy...I don't buy them for my personal use - I buy them for my business, Don is part of my business as i am part of his.

[darrin_cooper]

What's wrong w/ this. A couple of years ago, there was Follow The White Lap Top that traveled the globe to raise awareness & money for One Laptop per child. People like Guy Kawasaki and Cambrian House participated. It went to aprox. 19 places, signed by each place. And yes, they used Fed Ex for tracking......

Originally Posted by KenStrong

I'd like a new laptop -- if we all put in $5.00 we can share it. We'll just FedEx it around the world every time someone needs to check their email or something.

[Scott Ames]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

What's unethical about that? You sell one more copy of your course, where you wouldn't have sold anything... and the people who get it don't use it anyway.

I see your point. These people are not likely to use it true..

If you are in the same office, a partner in business, and it's a copy for the business, I don't see a problem either. What I see is that someone in Hawaii is "sharing" a copy with someone in New York and they have no other business relationship other than splitting the cost of a course. Then, they copy the the course for the other person. CD's easily copied, DVD's easily copied, manuals can be copied, etc. One takes the copy or perhaps they split it up so one gets half the originals , etc.

Maybe some product creators don't care. Perhaps it does create a sale that would otherwise not occur, I don't know.

[Michael Oksa]

Originally Posted by Jared Alberghini

lulz...

What I want to know is this: What course costs $706,175...

(# of Warrior Members: 141,235 X $5)

Must be one hell of a course... I'm in too...

.jrd

P.S. Ken, That's going to be one bad ass laptop for $700k

Or...

If it were a $5 product we could all chip in ~ $0.00003 each.

The PayPal fees would be a nightmare!



All the best,
Michael

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Scott Ames

Maybe some product creators don't care. Perhaps it does create a sale that would otherwise not occur, I don't know.

I've been rather a fan of Jared's idea to use pirate communities to your advantage, and my research indicates that when these communities organise a group purchase... many of them temporarily block access to anyone who didn't contribute. Sometimes for as much as six months.

I think it's rather a positive thing to block access to your product for six months in a pirate community. I may be scouting for invitations to a few of them when I'm preparing for my own product's launch.

[Star Riley]

Ethics versus Non Ethics that is the question. It may be a okay or maybe not.

Okay I've made up my mind by way of my wife who say's She buys books from Barnes and Nobles she reads em and maybe a relative reads then she takes it to the doctors office and leaves it for others to read.

Now as a marketer if I sell a product and you copy it then ask for a refund while placing my stuff in the black-hat forum for everyone to access then that would be un-cool.

As a consumer buying things online who happens to stumble onto BH forum that may seem cool.

All in all people who make money make money and people may buy together or just out right steal in the end if a person has the mind to steal then they will reap what they sow. If a group has the mind to share they too will reap what they sow after all what goes around comes around.

I would rather the group shafting to the rough black hater any day.

I'll post again if and when I make up my mind.

[Michael Nguyen]

its no different than buying something and learning from it and then regurgitating back to your forum and friends. thw whole wso section is like that.

[Tom Brite]

I was just going to come in here and have a really big go at you... then i recognised the avatar and was like wtf all my trust has gone for this guy now!

Then im glad i read the actual topic and re-read it as im now all calm and now need to take my anger out on someone or something else!

Tom Brite

[BigVin]

Interesting post.

Had me going for a minute. Damn you guys!

[Frank Donovan]

In these economically challenging times, it's prudent to explore different business models.

So, you buy my product and share it with 3 others. If there was a way that the sharers all got onto my list, that's really just a couple of steps removed from giving an affiliate 100% commission on the front end. Hmm...May not be a bad deal.

Or, I start a buyers' club and charge my members $10 a month for access to discounted products. If I then approach you and offer to buy 250 copies of your new digitally downloadable product at, say, 75% discount, might you be tempted?

If so, say we then agreed that instead of my downloading your product 250 times, I would just download one and copy it for my members.

Now we're getting close to the principle suggested by the OP.


Interesting.



Frank

[Andyhenry]

Originally Posted by darrin_cooper

There's absolutely nothing wrong with this at all.

To say it's not ethical, then back what is ethical about gurus all getting together & blasting out the same email trying to get the latest guru affiliate prize?

I can't believe you're saying this. I'm sure I must have misread or misunderstood what you're saying.

Are you REALLY saying that its fine to join a pool to buy a product and all participants keep the product?

What's the difference between that and me buying your product and giving it to all my friends because they couldn't afford it? In fact, even giving it to strangers?

This is not far from just putting it up online for anyone to steal. Just because someone paid 'something' towards it doesn't mean they own it or are entitled to it.

Using the argument that well, gurus aren't playing fair anyway so it's only right that we can share their stuff just in case we decide it's not as valuable as they claim - is crazy...

Andy

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

What's the difference between that and me buying your product and giving it to all my friends because they couldn't afford it? In fact, even giving it to strangers?

You do realise that a lot of younger people these days don't see a problem with that, either, don't you?

That an awful lot of people out there are very much of the opinion that if something is cheap and easy for them to copy, it is morally wrong to say "no" when someone asks you to copy it for them?

Even if it's a stranger?

I don't find that any less shocking than you do, but it's the world where we live. And if your business relies on each customer telling his friends "screw you, buy your own" - your business is in trouble.

We don't get to choose how the cultural changes go. We just have to go with them. It's the people who won't or can't adapt that end up going under. You can't tell your customers to turn down that awful music and pull up their damn pants.

[Jeff Noel]

Originally Posted by Andyhenry

I

This is not far from just putting it up online for anyone to steal. Just because someone paid 'something' towards it doesn't mean they own it or are entitled to it.
Andy

I am not sure exactly what you mean here. But if I pull out my wallet and pay for something it is mine. Therefore I have the right to do with it what I want. If I choose to share it with 10 of my friends that is my choice. From what I understand is that if I copy the program course or whatever then sell it for a profit then I am breaking the law.

I will give you an example of a situation that I personally went through. I and my business partner who lives 400km away from me purchased a online product that could only be viewed over the web.

About two weeks into the course I and my partner were unable to view the course. After contacting them they sent a e-mail stating that what we were doing was against their terms of service and that I would have to purchase two courses. I replied back stating our situation yet they did not seem to believe us nor were they going to give us access to the product or a refund.

I gave them an ultimatum either allow us to continue on with the course, give us a refund or I will contact the BBB and the FTC. I received no response so I contacted the FTC first and then the FTC contacted them to let them know that the information that I purchased belongs to my company and that they have no right to withhold the information from me.

Needless to say that we were granted access to the course immediatly.

[Michael Mayo]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

You do realise that a lot of younger people these days don't see a problem with that, either, don't you?

Yes, I see and understand the physiological problem in some of the younger generation you're describing. Not all of them are that way, many actually have scruples and understand morals.

That an awful lot of people out there are very much of the opinion that if something is cheap and easy for them to copy, it is morally wrong to say "no" when someone asks you to copy it for them?

Even if it's a stranger?

Seriously, That doesn't justify theft or copyright infringement.

I don't find that any less shocking than you do, but it's the world where we live. And if your business relies on each customer telling his friends "screw you, buy your own" - your business is in trouble.

That's not true...If we allow it to continue to happen with out giving a damn about the end results then Yes you would be correct. Although it is wrong and the problem remains in the lack of education that some have which in a court of Law will not excuse their actions. Another point might be that companies like Micro-soft require users to register their products so that duplicate registrations flag them to such issues. Only deterrents can help in the prevention of such actions as sharing files. We may never be able to stop the theft but we can do our part based on the importance of our business models to prevent it from happening. No we shouldn't chase ever violator but we should be aware of whom is licenced to use our products.

We don't get to choose how the cultural changes go. We just have to go with them. It's the people who won't or can't adapt that end up going under. You can't tell your customers to turn down that awful music and pull up their damn pants.

You can if you own the establishment they are entering. What will you end up with? A higher class of clientele that give you less problems down the road.

Have a Great Day!
Michael

[sbucciarel]

Originally Posted by Scott Ames

I exaggerate but that's what I see going on around the net. "I want XXX course, want to share the cost with me and 3 other guys?"

Personally I don't think that is ethical but I know it happens. I guess it's better than people that order, copy, then refund. Still it's a poverty mentality and I don't think those that get a course this way will use it. {my assumption is ) They are course collectors that's all.

Ethical? It's theft. Nothing less.

[Kelly Verge]

Originally Posted by George Wright

Not to dig up my old thread but what about "partners" who want to implement a certain program in their business? Do they buy one course for the "business," or one course for each one who will be using it, including employees who will have to learn the information to implement for their employers?

George Wright

I read, distill, then record Jing videos with instructions. Just seems to be more productive and leads to fewer interpretation errors. It also bypasses the ethical issue you bring up.

-K

[Michael Mayo]

Originally Posted by Jeff Noel

I am not sure exactly what you mean here. But if I pull out my wallet and pay for something it is mine. Therefore I have the right to do with it what I want. If I choose to share it with 10 of my friends that is my choice. From what I understand is that if I copy the program course or whatever then sell it for a profit then I am breaking the law.

I will give you an example of a situation that I personally went through. I and my business partner who lives 400km away from me purchased a online product that could only be viewed over the web.

About two weeks into the course I and my partner were unable to view the course. After contacting them they sent a e-mail stating that what we were doing was against their terms of service and that I would have to purchase two courses. I replied back stating our situation yet they did not seem to believe us nor were they going to give us access to the product or a refund.

I gave them an ultimatum either allow us to continue on with the course, give us a refund or I will contact the BBB and the FTC. I received no response so I contacted the FTC first and then the FTC contacted them to let them know that the information that I purchased belongs to my company and that they have no right to withhold the information from me.

Needless to say that we were granted access to the course immediatly.

Yes, That can be the case if the product right states so although assuming that all right to products are the same can land some one into a heap of legal trouble if different than the one you described.

Always read the product rights before you choose to use the product no matter if it is to resell it or give it away.

Books are one thing but REPRODUCTIONS are another. If you loan/give your friend a book then yes you have every right to do so as long as the rights don't limit you to do so. Although, if the If the rights remain the sole property of the Business that to purchased the rights to view the info then you have no rights to disclose the info to others.

I'm not a Lawyer so what I have said is based on what I have been through and is not legal advise. If you seek legal advise then seek a more trained/competent professional in this area or law.

Have a Great Day!
Michael

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo

We may never be able to stop the theft but we can do our part based on the importance of our business models to prevent it from happening.

You could also have a business model that doesn't require your customers to be honest. It's nice if they are, of course... but if you can't guarantee that, and you can't control that, don't build your business on that ideal.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's the reality of modern society. You have to accept that people do things you don't think are right, because they don't think these things are wrong.

You can't win that battle. It's a struggle of ideals, and there's simply no reason for them to follow your ideals when it's clearly to their disadvantage.

[Ram]

Ever buy a book and then let someone else read it? I suspect most of us have. And didn't think we were doing anything wrong.

Not much difference, really.

People are free to lend or resell just about anything they buy. Sites like eBay, half.com, etc., carry a lot of books, courses, CDs, records, etc. There is not a court in the U.S. that would tell me I can't sell an a copy of a physical infoproduct, like Traffic Secrets 1, that I bought.

So if we are talking about a group buy of a physical product, probably perfectly legal. Hell, people go halves on cars, stereos, furniture, books, etc.

Lot of grey with digital products, though. We like to think that our "terms of service" have legal weight. But the truth is it's largely untested in court. Sure, copying copyrighted material is illegal. Selling illegally copied material is illegal. And it;s hard to imagine a group buy that doesn't involve illegal copying. But what about a printout of a pdf? I print out every pdf I buy. A lot of people do. Can you legally share that single copy? Who knows ... but I bet a good lawyer could make a case that it is no different from sharing the latest John Grisham novel you bought with your mother.

I don't like it. Many don't. But that's where we are. And it's only going to get worse. Respect for intellectual property is at an all-time low and getting lower as the tech of sharing gets ever, ever, ever easier.

[Michael Mayo]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

You could also have a business model that doesn't require your customers to be honest. It's nice if they are, of course... but if you can't guarantee that, and you can't control that, don't build your business on that ideal.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying it's the reality of modern society. You have to accept that people do things you don't think are right, because they don't think these things are wrong.

You can't win that battle. It's a struggle of ideals, and there's simply no reason for them to follow your ideals when it's clearly to their disadvantage.

Agreed, But I won't just give up either!

Originally Posted by Ram

Ever buy a book and then let someone else read it? I suspect most of us have. And didn't think we were doing anything wrong.

Not much difference, really.

People are free to lend or resell just about anything they buy. Sites like eBay, half.com, etc., carry a lot of books, courses, CDs, records, etc. There is not a court in the U.S. that would tell me I can't sell an a copy of a physical infoproduct, like Traffic Secrets 1, that I bought.

So if we are talking about a group buy of a physical product, probably perfectly legal. Hell, people go halves on cars, stereos, furniture, books, etc.

Lot of grey with digital products, though. We like to think that our "terms of service" have legal weight. But the truth is it's largely untested in court. Sure, copying copyrighted material is illegal. Selling illegally copied material is illegal. And it;s hard to imagine a group buy that doesn't involve illegal copying. But what about a printout of a pdf? I print out every pdf I buy. A lot of people do. Can you legally share that single copy? Who knows ... but I bet a good lawyer could make a case that it is no different from sharing the latest John Grisham novel you bought with your mother.

I don't like it. Many don't. But that's where we are. And it's only going to get worse. Respect for intellectual property is at an all-time low and getting lower as the tech of sharing gets ever, ever, ever easier.

Also Agree although if you were to create more than one copy and gave it away to friends then you would most likely be in violation of the copyright laws.

Have a Great Day!
michael

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Jared Alberghini

P.S. Ken, That's going to be one bad ass laptop for $700k

OK, OK - Sold! One Laptop, case, software and loaded with IM products...where do I ship it guys?

I kind of like this buy low, sell high business

Seriously, people sharing our 'stuff' is going to happen...how can we as IMer's position ourselves to get the upper hand? Maybe by simply offering a package designed to be shared, at a slightly higher price, and model it after multi-user licensed software.

just a thought...

Doug

[Scott Ames]

Originally Posted by Doug

OK, OK - Sold! One Laptop, case, software and loaded with IM products...where do I ship it guys?

I kind of like this buy low, sell high business

Seriously, people sharing our 'stuff' is going to happen...how can we as IMer's position ourselves to get the upper hand? Maybe by simply offering a package designed to be shared, at a slightly higher price, and model it after multi-user licensed software.

just a thought...

Doug

That is more the intent of the thread. People are going to share, so what can marketers do to make it an advantage ? Get strict? Get liberal? I don't know the answer. I know that when you buy software, it's for your use and you can't legally share it with others. You have a license for 1 installation, or whatever rights you buy. Technically most software is non-transferrable even though people do it.

[charlesburke]

All this talk about morals and ethics and which is "right"er than the other.

I've never in my entire life met anyone who thought their own ethics were wrong. So, your ethics... are they right? Are you sure? Ask your neighbor... if you dare.

Cheers from warm and smiling Thailand,
Charles

[greff]

I know my wife, the lawyer, would say it is stealing under the law. I'm for sharing.

I have yet to see a course worth more than a small amount of money, though.

Originally Posted by darrin_cooper

There's absolutely nothing wrong with this at all.

Let's take the flip side of your argument for example -- The big time gurus who have existing large lists with partner affiliates. The partner affiliates get a special "Affiliate Deals" and higher percentages vs. the "other" affiliates. Also, they are sometimes given even an advanced look at the product without buying. So, when a big Launch is scheduled, on a certain date, only the specific group MASS BLASTS everyone to purchase their product. And it's like a Round-Robin of Week after week after week of I scratch your back you scratch mine style of marketing.

I can tell you this, without the support of the 20 - 50 "Partner Affiliates" as a group, there would be no way that ANY of these gurus pushing these products would achieve the sales they are saying

Therefore, if it benefits others to purchase the product to simply see the "TRUTH" and pay a lower cost, so be it. To say it's not ethical,
then back what is ethical about gurus all getting together & blasting out the same email trying to get the latest guru affiliate prize?

I think it's a great idea to take what is happening now, is that costs are going up from the "$1997" framework, to now what is happening this: $2,495 & $2700 framework. 20 People who are interested can get a $1997 product for $100. I would be more inclined to connect on a group think basis of $100 & connect w/ people that bought together vs. not being able to even contact customer support or even get the truth from the owner of the product who is never around anyway.
At the end of the day, ETHICS, has nothing to do with it. It's about whether or not the value of what is being offered is worth it.

Now that is food for thought... Great post...

James

[Scott Ames]

Then it's ok if I buy your WSO and share it with a few friends. You don't mind do you?

Originally Posted by darrin_cooper

There's absolutely nothing wrong with this at all.

Let's take the flip side of your argument for example -- The big time gurus who have existing large lists with partner affiliates. The partner affiliates get a special "Affiliate Deals" and higher percentages vs. the "other" affiliates. Also, they are sometimes given even an advanced look at the product without buying. So, when a big Launch is scheduled, on a certain date, only the specific group MASS BLASTS everyone to purchase their product. And it's like a Round-Robin of Week after week after week of I scratch your back you scratch mine style of marketing.

I can tell you this, without the support of the 20 - 50 "Partner Affiliates" as a group, there would be no way that ANY of these gurus pushing these products would achieve the sales they are saying

Therefore, if it benefits others to purchase the product to simply see the "TRUTH" and pay a lower cost, so be it. To say it's not ethical,
then back what is ethical about gurus all getting together & blasting out the same email trying to get the latest guru affiliate prize?

I think it's a great idea to take what is happening now, is that costs are going up from the "$1997" framework, to now what is happening this: $2,495 & $2700 framework. 20 People who are interested can get a $1997 product for $100. I would be more inclined to connect on a group think basis of $100 & connect w/ people that bought together vs. not being able to even contact customer support or even get the truth from the owner of the product who is never around anyway.
At the end of the day, ETHICS, has nothing to do with it. It's about whether or not the value of what is being offered is worth it.

[BrianMcLeod]

A true "group buy" in the legal sense is more akin to a wholesale discount, not a single purchase shared with multiple users (typically in violation of that license).

It's not uncommon in audio recording forums where everyone wants to grab a new plug in or softsynth for their ProTools or DP rig. The forum owner negotiates a group buy with the publisher. Typically, these are tiered discounts. The more members that join the group buy, the lower the price (up to a predetermined ceiling).

Think in terms of a big one-time sales event of deeply discounted individually licensed products. The value for each purchaser in the group is their own valid and legit license. The value for the publisher is a large sale of multiple copies of their product at once.

It's not surprising but nonetheless disappointing that an ever growing population labors under the mistaken notion that just because you pay for something you now own it. Not true... especially in terms of digital products, but also the case for some physical products.

If you buy my band's CD, you don't own the music, or the right to decide how it's distributed. You can sell or give your personal copy of the CD to someone else. You can loan your CD to someone else. But you can't COPY the CD and give it away to 10 friends just because you bought a copy.

All that said, pissing into the wind is never a smart move... and most of the moves made by merchants and sellers of intellectual property do little to either curb the behavior or keep the backspray off their face.

Group purchases as micro membership sites? Hmmm. Community, cheaper pricing... That's what the market wants... Not much different than the rubric of affiliate sales if you think about it.

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

But you can't COPY the CD and give it away to 10 friends just because you bought a copy.

Actually, the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992 explicitly protects this right under section 1008.

And then there's the doctrine of "fair use," which a lot of people use to excuse their behaviour... you can make copies for educational purposes. Trouble is, you can make copies of what you're being educated about, but not what you're being educated by - just because a CD is educational in and of itself doesn't mean you can copy it and that's fair use. It means you can copy it and teach people about that CD. A lot of people simply don't grasp what this means.

Basically, if your music were to be used in a music class, the teacher could copy your CD and pass it out for people to study. But if you made a CD lecturing about music, it is not fair use for the teacher to make copies and hand them out as homework instead of writing original course material.

I'm not a lawyer, but IP law is something of a hobby for me. It gets pretty hairy, and that's what makes it fun.

[BrianMcLeod]

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Actually, the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992 explicitly protects this right under section 1008.

Hey Caliban,

Like you, IANAL, but I've got to disagree with you on that.

That section of the act is largely about protecting the manufacturers of digital reproduction equipment (DAT machines) and media (modern CDR's for example). In fact, the whole point of the legislation was the somewhat absurd mandate of the collection of a paltry royalty that interested industry parties would collectively share in thereby offsetting the "losses" from the ability to digitally clone a recording bit for bit.

IMO, the marketplace confusion arises from common misunderstanding of the provisions for making PERSONAL copies of the digital recording MEDIUM. In other words, you can make as many copies of Mudvayne's new CD as you want for your own personal use, but you CANNOT share or distribute those copies to others under that same protection.

It's cool that you're into the topic (and it's an interesting topic to be sure).

Originally Posted by Scott Ames

Then it's ok if I buy your WSO and share it with a few friends. You don't mind do you?

Scott,
I think his point was that if you have partners or a staff then it is not exactly fair that you should have to purchase 4 or 5 copies of a course just for your staff to learn some new methods that you plan to put into action.

For example - I have several staff that I have been working with for years, if I purchased a course on email marketing that cost $1,997 but my staff and I actually split that cost since we all will be using the method since we all do work together. Then this should be fair, because if it is not fair then there is no way I would fork out $8,000 to cover myself and my staff... Thus the seller would lose out 100%.

Now I would not pay that kind of money for any course but that is me.. I do not buy online courses. But this is what I got from his post, maybe I read it wrong or something but this is what I got from it...

James

Edit: I am not speaking about CD's or software or scripts... I am specifically speaking in terms of your thread title "courses" which to me means some type of pdf, online training, documents, or something...

[rosetrees]

I wonder how M1cr0s0ft would react if we clubbed together to buy a copy of W1ind0ze and then shared it.

[rosetrees]

Originally Posted by TheRichJerksNet

I am specifically speaking in terms of your thread title "courses" which to me means some type of pdf, online training, documents, or something...

So if you were running an offline course, would you be happy if you were paid for just one place but 10 people turned up and told you they'd shared the cost of coming?

Surely - if you are buying in a course to train your staff or colleagues then you should be negotiating a group license?

[Matt Maiden]

I guess I'm old school when it comes to this kind of stuff.

If you have to get together to discuss whether or not something is right or wrong...

Matt

Originally Posted by rosetrees

So if you were running an offline course, would you be happy if you were paid for just one place but 10 people turned up and told you they'd shared the cost of coming?

Surely - if you are buying in a course to train your staff or colleagues then you should be negotiating a group license?

Again I do not buy courses, I just found Darrin's post an interesting point...

But yeah I could also agree if there is a way to contact the owner and ask about a group rate then that would be the right thing to do ....

James

[CDarklock]

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

Like you, IANAL, but I've got to disagree with you on that.

It's sort of buried at the end, but it's quite clear...

"No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings."

There's no clear definition of "noncommercial," of course, which leaves it good and hairy... but it doesn't say "personal." You could make a copy for someone else, provided you did not do so commercially. The Senate report outright stated that making a copy for a family member was noncommercial.

I do think you would have to do some fast talking to convince someone you made ten copies of the same CD for no commercial benefit at all. Someone could pretty easily argue that if all your friends also copied CDs ten times for their friends, as a matter of course, that this was actually a barter enterprise trading copies for copies... commercially.

[vual]

i would be interested... despite the unethical arguments. PM me if its still in action.

[theimdude]

Originally Posted by KenStrong

I'd like a new laptop -- if we all put in $5.00 we can share it. We'll just FedEx it around the world every time someone needs to check their email or something.

Send me the money and I will get the laptop. Here is a copy of TeamViewer for you $5 .................

[mhartmann]

People who do not earn and spend money on something will not value that something when they get it. Hence, they probably won't take action.

[MunkMurray]

I don't see the problem, it's just like physical product, you buy a book, you read it then you give it to a friend to read.

as long as it's not mass copying, I think it's okay...

[marciayudkin]

I think his point was that if you have partners or a staff then it is not exactly fair that you should have to purchase 4 or 5 copies of a course just for your staff to learn some new methods that you plan to put into action.

For example - I have several staff that I have been working with for years, if I purchased a course on email marketing that cost $1,997 but my staff and I actually split that cost since we all will be using the method since we all do work together. Then this should be fair, because if it is not fair then there is no way I would fork out $8,000 to cover myself and my staff... Thus the seller would lose out 100%.

It depends how the course is consumed whether or not this is OK.

If you buy one copy and duplicate it so everyone has their own copy, this is illegal. Corporations know this, and that is why they buy licenses in situations like this.

On the other hand, if you buy one copy and everyone gets a turn reading/listening to it, that is perfectly fine. This is like buying one copy for a company or public library and only one person can check it out at a time.

So to get back to the original question, if people get together and chip in for the cost and take turns with the product, there's no problem whatsoever. If they get together and chip in for the cost and everyone gets a copy, that's piracy.

Marcia Yudkin
(information publisher, not a lawyer)

[Johnny Slater]

Just as a little experiment... Call up Microsoft and inform them that you have a business that has 10 employees and that you intend on buying one copy of thier operating system and installing it on all 10 employees computers because your "business" is buying the software. They will tell you real quick that each copy is for personal use and only one person can use it. They are not going to give you 10 serial numbers just because you want to share the software with your "business."

There is no difference in the situation above and what is being discussed here. Legally, if a product owner states that you do not have the right to distribute the product to anyone else, then you do not have that right, regardless of how much you try to rationalize and argue the point.

[BIG Mike]

Interesting comments in this thread - from my corporate days, when a given course was purchased, a copy was purchased for every person taking it.

When books/manuals, etc., were purchased, multiple copies were purchased and placed in a library for reference as needed (with permission).

All software was licensed by installed copy - that one is still a corporate IT nightmare.

Unless it's allowed by the licensing of the product or special agreement, I cannot agree with the concept of a "Group Share" of any product. To me, it's just plain wrong - and as business people/ IM'ers, I'm surprised anyone condones it here.

For those of you buying info products, whether it's a $7 WSO or a $7K physical info product (CD's/DVD's, Books, etc.), you're paying for one copy for your personal use - not for your business and all of its staff, again, assuming no special licensing or other agreement have been extended.

You can justify it to yourself anyway you want to - it's still wrong, especially when the intent is to specifically avoid paying for each copy viewed/used. You might as well just change your forum title to "Product Thief", because that is what you're doing. The fact that you paid something is not justification for doing it.